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Author Topic: The Myth of Russian Humiliation  (Read 43253 times)

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Offline AkMike

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The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« on: October 17, 2014, 11:17:04 PM »

By Anne Applebaum Columnist October 17 at 3:30 PM 
 
Looking back over the past quarter-century, it isn?t easy to name a Western policy that can truly be described as a success. The impact of Western development aid is debatable. Western interventions in the Middle East have been disastrous.

But one Western policy stands out as a phenomenal success, particularly when measured against the low expectations with which it began: the integration of Central Europe and the Baltic States into the European Union and NATO. Thanks to this double project, more than 90 million people have enjoyed relative safety and relative prosperity for more than two decades in a region whose historic instability helped launch two world wars.


These two ?expansions,? which were parallel but not identical (some countries are members of one organization but not the other), were transformative because they were not direct leaps, as the word ?expansion? implies, but slow negotiations. Before joining NATO, each country had to establish civilian control of its army. Before joining the European Union, each adopted laws on trade, judiciary, human rights. As a result, they became democracies. This was ?democracy promotion? working as it never has before or since.

But times change, and the miraculous transformation of a historically unstable region became a humdrum reality. Instead of celebrating this achievement on the 25th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, it is now fashionable to opine that this expansion, and of NATO in particular, was mistaken. This project is incorrectly ?remembered? as the result of American ?triumphalism? that somehow humiliated Russia by bringing Western institutions into its rickety neighborhood. This thesis is usually based on revisionist history promoted by the current Russian regime ? and it is wrong.

For the record: No treaties prohibiting NATO expansion were ever signed with Russia. No promises were broken. Nor did the impetus for NATO expansion come from a ?triumphalist? Washington. On the contrary, Poland?s first efforts to apply in 1992 were rebuffed. I well remember the angry reaction of the U.S. ambassador to Warsaw at the time. But Poland and others persisted, precisely because they were already seeing signs of the Russian revanchism to come.

When the slow, cautious expansion eventually took place, constant efforts were made to reassure Russia. No NATO bases were placed in the new member states, and until 2013 no exercises were conducted there. A Russia-NATO agreement in 1997 promised no movement of nuclear installations. A NATO-Russia Council was set up in 2002. In response to Russian objections, Ukraine and Georgia were, in fact, denied NATO membership plans in 2008.

Meanwhile, not only was Russia not ?humiliated? during this era, it was given de facto ?great power? status, along with the Soviet seat on the U.N. Security Council and Soviet embassies. Russia also received Soviet nuclear weapons, some transferred from Ukraine in 1994 in exchange for Russian recognition of Ukraine?s borders. Presidents Clinton and Bush both treated their Russian counterparts as fellow ?great power? leaders and invited them to join the Group of Eight ? although Russia, neither a large economy nor a democracy, did not qualify.

During this period, Russia, unlike Central Europe, never sought to transform itself along European lines. Instead, former KGB officers with a clearly expressed allegiance to the Soviet system took over the state in league with organized crime, seeking to prevent the formation of democratic institutions at home and to undermine them abroad. For the past decade, this kleptocratic clique has also sought to re-create an empire, using everything from cyberattacks on Estonia to military invasions of Georgia and now Ukraine, in open violation of that 1994 agreement ? exactly as the Central Europeans feared.

Once we remember what actually happened over the past two decades, as opposed to accepting the Russian regime?s version, our own mistakes look different. In 1991, Russia was no longer a great power in either population or economic terms. So why didn?t we recognize reality, reform the United Nations and give a Security Council seat to India, Japan or others? Russia did not transform itself along European lines. Why did we keep pretending that it had? Eventually, our use of the word ?democracy? to describe the Russian political system discredited the word in Russia itself.


The crisis in Ukraine, and the prospect of a further crisis in NATO itself, is not the result of our triumphalism but of our failure to react to Russia?s aggressive rhetoric and its military spending. Why didn?t we move NATO bases eastward a decade ago? Our failure to do so has now led to a terrifying plunge of confidence in Central Europe. Countries once eager to contribute to the alliance are now afraid. A string of Russian provocations unnerve the Baltic region: the buzzing of Swedish airspace, the kidnapping of an Estonian security officer.

Our mistake was not to humiliate Russia but to underrate Russia?s revanchist, revisionist, disruptive potential. If the only real Western achievement of the past quarter-century is now under threat, that?s because we have failed to ensure that NATO continues to do in Europe what it was always meant to do: deter. Deterrence is not an aggressive policy; it is a defensive policy. But in order to work, deterrence has to be real. It requires investment, consolidation and support from all of the West, and especially the United States. I?m happy to blame American triumphalism for many things, but in Europe I wish there had been more of it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/anne-applebaum-nato-pays-a-heavy-price-for-giving-russia-too-much-credita-true-achievement-under-threat/2014/10/17/5b3a6f2a-5617-11e4-809b-8cc0a295c773_story.html

lordtiberius

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2014, 04:48:24 AM »
Applebaum and her husband are a bit odd.  She writes good books but take her with a grain of salt.

Offline Doll

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2014, 05:28:35 AM »
Quote
I?m happy to blame American triumphalism for many things, but in Europe I wish there had been more of it.
Keep yout nose out of Europe.
We, we, we." "We" are on the other half of Globe.
  American triumphalism  !
 :D

lordtiberius

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2014, 07:25:10 AM »
Russia and America are neighbors.  Right now Doll, we are navel gazing.  You don't want to upset us.  Jus' sayin'

Offline Doll

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2014, 07:44:15 AM »
Russia and America are neighbors.  Right now Doll, we are navel gazing.  You don't want to upset us.  Jus' sayin'
Then how are the USA and Ukraine are neighbors?

lordtiberius

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2014, 09:06:03 AM »
Irrelevant.

Offline Doll

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2014, 09:14:15 AM »
Irrelevant.
Really?
The USA interfers in what Russia is doing "because they are neighbors"
Ok. Then, how are the USA and Ukraine neighbors (as the US is activelly involved in Ukrainian conflict)?
I read Department of States biefings daily.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 09:16:24 AM by Doll »

lordtiberius

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2014, 09:20:24 AM »
What exactly are you accusing us of?  And who?  No more quack conspiracies.  Hard evidence.  And while we are at it, what is Russia doing in Montenegro? Venezuela? Brazil? Syria? Iran?

Stop defend these Kremlin gangsters and think for yourself.


Offline AC

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2014, 12:39:39 PM »
Keep yout nose out of Europe.
We, we, we." "We" are on the other half of Globe.
  American triumphalism  Exceptionalism  !
 :D

Because the USA is the leading partner of NATO and because treaties were agreed to at the end of WWII to respect the boundaries of neighboring countries in Europe, treaties which Russia signed;  the USA and our allies have the right to deter Russian aggression in Europe and we will.

By violating the treaties Russia shows itself to be a dishonest thug of a neighbor who cannot be trusted.  In fact the signature of any Russian on any treaty is no longer good because the Russian government is comprised of dishonest people who cannot be trusted at any price.

This is why Ukraine has been asking for military assistance from their Western neighbors in Europe as well they have been asking for assistance of the USA.

Ukraine is a sovereign country and they will eventually get the assistance they need:  get over it.
USA is the leading member of NATO and the only Superpower in the World:  get over it.

Any more questions or concerns?  Dial 1-900-so sad too bad.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 12:43:24 PM by AC »

lordtiberius

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2014, 02:31:17 PM »
I just challenge anyone reading this to google Sierra Army Depot theft and ask yourself why aren't we transporting those weapons East to Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic's?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 02:51:21 PM by lordtiberius »

Offline Doll

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2014, 02:41:04 PM »
What exactly are you accusing us of?  And who?  No more quack conspiracies.  Hard evidence.  And while we are at it, what is Russia doing in Montenegro? Venezuela? Brazil? Syria? Iran?

.
Nothing.

Offline AkMike

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2014, 02:46:57 PM »
Nothing.

 Just like the enforced tourism in Ukraine?

Offline Doll

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2014, 02:50:47 PM »
Just like the enforced tourism in Ukraine?
Russia in Syria and Iraq?
Evidendce, please.

lordtiberius

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2014, 02:52:03 PM »
Who was it that said you weren't dumb?

Offline AC

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2014, 02:54:57 PM »
I just challenge anyone reading this to google Sierra Army Depot theft and ask yourself why aren't we transporting those weapons East to Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic's?

Because Romney lost the election in 2012 and an imposter took his place. 

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Offline JayH

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2014, 04:02:54 PM »
Keep yout nose out of Europe.
We, we, we." "We" are on the other half of Globe.
  American triumphalism  !

Doll -- I do not agree with much of what you say-- and definitely do not approve of those haranguing you here in the manner it is happening.
In past times I also took the view that outside interference was innappropriate-- in particular i objected to US meddling and of course the support my own country gave.
In the 90's and the break up of Yugoslavia -the genocide that took place there changed my mind. I could not rationalise the "world" doing nothing to stop the killings and loss of life there. Massive numbers died there-- and so unnecessarily. I kept asking myself-- in knowing what was going on there-how can "we"( the rest of the world)  just ignore this and pretend it is not happening or none of "our" business?
My conclusion was that having a "worlds policeman" concept  was not an innappropriate thing. I see the world as people-- not lines on a map defining national boundaries-be they ethnic or nationalistic in principle.The lessons of the holocaust are constantly put in front of us-and the lesson needs to be learnt.I see myself as a citizen of the world-with my ultimate responsibility to mankind-- not to a nation.
Anything that stops death and destruction is a good thing in my view--put it on hold and sort it out by talking and reach a peaceful conclusion.
I never expected to find myself embroiled in a war with Russia in Ukraine. Any reasonable person can see that Russia's behaviour is despicable,dishonest and motivated by all the wrong reasons.As such-- attempting to rationalise on the basis of what others are doing ( or not doing) is an innappropriate response.
Russia should get out of Ukraine and the Crimea-- and reverse the direction it is taking.Maybe it is still possible to save Russia from the self destructive path it has chosen.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2014, 04:58:03 PM »
Who was it that said you weren't dumb?


Who was it that said you act cowardly?

lordtiberius

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2014, 05:42:45 PM »

Who was it that said you act cowardly?

Thanks

lordtiberius

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2014, 05:48:12 PM »
This same people who crap on my country are now on their hands and knees nagging us for weapons.  You wanted a guy like Obama now you tell us you want Reagan or Bush.  If you are in the Ukie government do us a favor, stop talking and start outfitting these volunteer battalions you are sending in as cannon fodder lest you find yourself in the trash bucket challenge.

Offline sleepycat

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2014, 08:45:46 PM »
What I don't get about the Russian mentality is; why the obsession with land grab when they are already the country with the biggest landmass in the world. How has all that millions of kilometres of landmass help turn Russia into a first class industrialised economy? Well it hasn't...

Seriously wouldn't they rather wish they can trade places with another country for example like Switzerland? A small landlocked country with few natural resources, but a country that lives in peace with its neighbours and produces quality products that people will pay a premium to buy.

lordtiberius

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2014, 10:31:56 PM »
Good point.


"Please, please America, save us!"

[Obama hits the links.]

Offline AC

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2014, 10:58:32 AM »
What I don't get about the Russian mentality is; why the obsession with land grab when they are already the country with the biggest landmass in the world. How has all that millions of kilometres of landmass help turn Russia into a first class industrialised economy? Well it hasn't...

Seriously wouldn't they rather wish they can trade places with another country for example like Switzerland? A small landlocked country with few natural resources, but a country that lives in peace with its neighbours and produces quality products that people will pay a premium to buy.


Well said and this really sums the whole Russian problem up very well.  Just this century how many wars has Russia started in attempts to grab land from neighboring countries?  First Chechnya (twice).  Georgia in 2008.  Now Ukraine in 2014.  Before that Afghanistan.  How many times has Ukraine gone to war this century with a neighbor in an attempt to steal land?  Zero.

Notice that the GDP of tiny Switzerland is very good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Switzerland

Offline sleepycat

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2014, 12:40:52 PM »
Don't forget a lot of the patriotic wealthy elite of Russia sends their children to be educated in Switzerland rather than have their children educated back in the motherland.

Offline Doll

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Re: The Myth of Russian Humiliation
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2014, 01:33:04 PM »
Quote
Russian aggression in Europe
:ROFL:

 

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