Electricity cut to Krym.

[Boethius]

Why would Ukrainians fund a region that proclaims itself separate, and which will provide nothing to federal coffers?  They have even introduced their own currency.

[jone]

Shadow,

While Krim is important to Russia, you miss the entire purpose for the Russian aggression.  Russia has no ability to unify the former Soviet republics around a new Russian economic system without Ukraine.  Moreover, if Ukraine is successful in turning to the European Union (and NATO) it will further isolate Russia.  Accordingly, any concessions that Ukraine will make will never satisfy Russia until Ukraine is completely back within its sphere of influence.

I find your understanding of the conflict to be somewhat naive.  How could you not know this?

On one side, Russia is the aggressor, having invaded Ukraine on two fronts.  It has polarized the Ukrainian people against Russia.  Absent the Russian nationals who exist within Krim and occupied Eastern Ukraine, there will never be enough support of Russia to move Ukraine back into Russia's orbit.

It is a Catch 22, of which all Ukrainian politicians are aware.  That is the reason that they will play Putin's game of negotiation, knowing that he can never really concede Eastern Ukraine and peace to the region.

I have argued that the best use of the West's money is to support the Ukrainian people for the same reason that Ronald Reagan advanced the military at the end of the Cold War - to bankrupt Russia and to complete the Westernization of Ukraine.

Give Ukraine another two years in the present circumstances and you will see that this strategy will play out favorably as Europe falls in step with economic support of Ukraine as a means of Russian deterrence.

[Shadow]

Why would Ukrainians fund a region that proclaims itself separate, and which will provide nothing to federal coffers?  They have even introduced their own currency.

The region would no longer be separate, however remain autonomous with a special representation in the government.
Donvass would remain in Ukraine, as it was always supposed to.

[Boethius]

How would that be in Ukraine's interests?

[Shadow]

Shadow,

While Krim is important to Russia, you miss the entire purpose for the Russian aggression.  Russia has no ability to unify the former Soviet republics around a new Russian economic system without Ukraine.  Moreover, if Ukraine is successful in turning to the European Union (and NATO) it will further isolate Russia.  Accordingly, any concessions that Ukraine will make will never satisfy Russia until Ukraine is completely back within its sphere of influence.

I find your understanding of the conflict to be somewhat naive.  How could you not know this?

On one side, Russia is the aggressor, having invaded Ukraine on two fronts.  It has polarized the Ukrainian people against Russia.  Absent the Russian nationals who exist within Krim and occupied Eastern Ukraine, there will never be enough support of Russia to move Ukraine back into Russia's orbit.

It is a Catch 22, of which all Ukrainian politicians are aware.  That is the reason that they will play Putin's game of negotiation, knowing that he can never really concede Eastern Ukraine and peace to the region.

I have argued that the best use of the West's money is to support the Ukrainian people for the same reason that Ronald Reagan advanced the military at the end of the Cold War - to bankrupt Russia and to complete the Westernization of Ukraine.

Give Ukraine another two years in the present circumstances and you will see that this strategy will play out favorably as Europe falls in step with economic support of Ukraine as a means of Russian deterrence.

By allowing Ukraine to choose its current course, Russia could use it to make its own arrangements with the EU.
After all if the idea is to reduce American influence, Russia might well be a strong central point in an alliance between China, Russia and the EU. Also the EU has something that Russia is interested in, a currency that has a real chance of fighting the Dollar.
Ukraine could finally gain some prosperity as go-between for the EU and Russian states, having an open trade channel with both.

It may be naieve, but if Russia can play in to the desire of the EU to stup up as a world power it could be well worth giving them a finger, with the risk of losing a hand.

[Shadow]

How would that be in Ukraine's interests?

While the conflict is continuing they have no chance to further their ambitions towards the EU.

[Boethius]

They won't further their EU ambitions if they are unstable, partly because they are subsidizing criminals running a rogue independent region, either.

[Shadow]

They won't further their EU ambitions if they are unstable, partly because they are subsidizing criminals running a rogue independent region, either.

As long as you can no longer see them as humans, hope is lost for you.

[Boethius]

I never stated they are not human.  However, if you think it is such a great idea, why not have EU citizens subsidize them?  Give them EU passports, to boot.

[Shadow]

I never stated they are not human.  However, if you think it is such a great idea, why not have EU citizens subsidize them?  Give them EU passports, to boot.

Eu is already subsidizing them. And yo do try to dehumaize them by using words like terrorists and criminals. It ias a derogative manner of adressing these people meant to place them lower on the human ladder and deserving of inhuman treatment.
In these days you may wish to consider your point of view on this.

[ML]

To say they are terrorists and criminals is to understate completely. 

They are the lowest form of life on the planet.

Completely disgusting people who deserve no life.

[Boethius]

I view terrorists and criminals as human, and no, I don't think of them as lower forms of humanity.  Just misguided and usually, not very bright.


My POV is based on facts.  A great many of the forces in Donbas are paid Russian mercenaries, more than a third.  A great many of the fighters are criminal elements.  That is well known.  They maintain order in the region through informant networks.  They torture and beat those who disagree with them.  They carry out extra judicial killings - "justice", they call it, for offenses as minor as theft.  They have proclaimed that women should not be out in restaurants, but should be "sitting at home with children".


Perhaps you view all these things as normal.  I do not.

[Shadow]

To say they are terrorists and criminals is to understate completely. 

They are the lowest form of life on the planet.

Completely disgusting people who deserve no life.

Another attempt at dehumanizing. This is what causes the conflict to remain.

[jone]

While the conflict is continuing they have no chance to further their ambitions towards the EU.

Oh, how wrong you are.  This will propel them directly into the EU.

[Shadow]

I view terrorists and criminals as human, and no, I don't think of them as lower forms of humanity.  Just misguided and usually, not very bright.


My POV is based on facts.  A great many of the forces in Donbas are paid Russian mercenaries, more than a third.  A great many of the fighters are criminal elements.  That is well known.  They maintain order in the region through informant networks.  They torture and beat those who disagree with them.  They carry out extra judicial killings - "justice", they call it, for offenses as minor as theft.  They have proclaimed that women should not be out in restaurants, but should be "sitting at home with children".


Perhaps you view all these things as normal.  I do not.

Mercenaries leave when they are no longer paid, meaning as soon as the conflict ends.
Further more, in a civil war there are atrocities from both sides, which is all the more reason to be trying resolving this rather than searching for reasons to continue.

I do not consider a state of martial law and civil war as normal, but I am not so naieve as to think that people will return to the previous state of (little) trust in a goverment after they have been shot at and bombed by or at least in name of that government.
Allowing some autonomy would be a factor to normalise relations, re-introduce a normal order in the society and in time rebuild faith in the government.
Shooting anyone who refuses to wear yellow and blue is a tactic Stalin used among others, and with little succes.

[Doll]

There was no power for just 5 hours

[Shadow]

Oh, how wrong you are.  This will propel them directly into the EU.

Believe me that on EU matters I am informed. While there is conflict, no chance just like Turkey will not be admitted while they have not solved the Cyrpus and Kurdic issues. Even if resolved, 15 years is the minimal timeline providing Ukraine manages to perform economic miracles.

Cuba has a better chance of joining the US at this time as Ukraine of joining the EU.

[Boethius]

Mercenaries leave when they are no longer paid, meaning as soon as the conflict ends.
Further more, in a civil war there are atrocities from both sides, which is all the more reason to be trying resolving this rather than searching for reasons to continue.

I do not consider a state of martial law and civil war as normal, but I am not so naieve as to think that people will return to the previous state of (little) trust in a goverment after they have been shot at and bombed by or at least in name of that government.
Allowing some autonomy would be a factor to normalise relations, re-introduce a normal order in the society and in time rebuild faith in the government.
Shooting anyone who refuses to wear yellow and blue is a tactic Stalin used among others, and with little succes.

Given Zakharchenko has stated all mines will be nationalized, the area should not need funds from Kyiv.


Stalin didn't shoot anyone who refused to wear yellow and blue.  But try it in the terrorist occupied areas of Donbas, and see how that goes.

[Doll]

My Wife says the electric was cut for two days straight, then on a few hours, then off, etc. Water is short!
 
More sanctions were put on Crimea by EU and USA.
 
Train service from Ukraine to Crimea has ended.
 
The future is dim!

five hours
Trains go around Ukraine
My ex lives there so pleeeeeeSe don' t make up things

[Shadow]

Given the above, the area should not need funds from Kyiv.


Stalin didn't shoot anyone who refused to wear yellow and blue.  But try it in the terrorist occupied areas of Donbas, and see how that goes.

Probably not much better as wearing the Confederate flag in Yanke territory during the Americann Civil War.

[jone]

Believe me that on EU matters I am informed. While there is conflict, no chance just like Turkey will not be admitted while they have not solved the Cyrpus and Kurdic issues. Even if resolved, 15 years is the minimal timeline providing Ukraine manages to perform economic miracles.

Cuba has a better chance of joining the US at this time as Ukraine of joining the EU.

EU membership was never on the table.  What you continue to miss (it must be the log in your eye) is that the EU will support Ukraine and use it as a permanent showplace to ostracize the Russians.  It will drive the Ukraine trade agreements and the market economy forward as a means to do this.    It is FRONT and CENTER in Europe. 

Ukraine does not need to be a full fledged member of the EU.  Instead, it will be a Western Germany of current times.

Another thing you don't get Shadow, is the visceral hatred of Russia, right now, by Ukrainians.  You just don't get it as your connections are not consistent through what is the current Kyiv controlled area.  The idea of Russia moving forward into a European union is fantasy.  As far as Eastern European countries are concerned, Russia's government has shown its true nature and all Eastern European countries are tightening security and asking for more NATO support.

That is reality right now.  Increased militarization coupled with a Marshall type plan for Ukraine.  It is what is being supported by the new Congress in the US right now, as well. 

I say it again, Russia's annexation of Krim was the worst move it could have made for its short term and long term future interests.  It's incursion into Eastern Ukraine only compounded its problem.

[lordtiberius]

Tell us again about how much you pray for peace.

I do pray for peace.   I don't like seeing Russians or Ukrainians die. Do you pray for peace?

[lordtiberius]

Who are you to make threats about what may happen after I die?

I read that book you disparage with lies and falsehoods.  So if you read that book too, you know what awaits you. 

You "no god" believers say your are so smart, but you certainly you know Pascal's wager:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

At best you fade into nothingness, at worst you face eternal damnation.  You blaspheme Christ on His Birthday and you commit the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit.  Where do you think you are going?

Does anyone else doubt that sin makes you stupid?  Blind?  Deaf? And Dumb?

I mean the solipsistic arrogance of that which cannot be perceived through one's five sense must not be true.  Stupid people I tell you.

[krimster2]

I will confirm based on recent Skype conversations with in-laws who live in Krim, outside of Sevastopol, that power was recently cut for two contiguous days.  The official explanation from Kyiv is that due to coal shortages electricity must be rationed and that Crimea went over their allotment and so Kyiv had to cut the power to Crimea, the same thing is happening all over Ukraine, coal reserves are less than 1/3 of the normal amount, and if there’s a major cold spell the demand will sky-rocket, remember Ukraine still has quite a few coal fired municipal central heating systems that heat groups of apartment buildings, their coal consumption will also eat into this coal reserve as well as electric generation and oligarchic industries.  Where you are located will determine how much time your power is cut-off, those fortunate enough to live in “elitny” down-town districts will have more power availability than in less significant regions, how egalitarian, eh?  Fortunately, Russians are now free of the burden of electricity generated by fascist junta!  All hail kPutin!  In related news, hundreds of properties in Crimea registered to Ukrainian oligarchs are now being re-registered to Russian oligarchs, Russian oligarch’s wish to thank everyone involved and are sorry for any inconveniences this process may have caused to average people (actually, I made that part up, they’re not sorry one bit!).

[lordtiberius]

Thank you