Invasion by Ukraine

[Shadow]

Demonstration is a part of democracy.  Yes, there were paid protesters on both sides.  However, there were many more who were there because they wanted change.  They were tired of the corruption, which had reached new heights under Yanukovych, something which I personally denied until the proof was presented.


Ukraine did not turn down a trade association agreement.  The president and his party did.  That is what protesters objected to.  They did not want more of the same, which is a dead end.  They want a different Ukraine, and they believe there is more chance of that occurring by turning West, rather than East.  Whether Ukraine will succeed is another matter.  But it has more chance to do so under EU, rather than Russian, guidance.

Your article shows it was a small group. The many more were simply not there.
If a president makes as decision, it is for the country. So Ukraine turned it down. Then it was sold not as trade association, but as EU membership, something that was in no way offered at the time.

You can make all the generalisations and assumptions you want about how noble Ukrainians wanted change. Fact is, if Ukraine had signed on November 21 there would not have been a single person demonstrating as the eu would not have reason to back protests.

[Doll]

Muzh, here everybody is an educated expert, so no IMHO
Everybody but Russian participants

[Doll]

Your article shows it was a small group. The many more were simply not there.
If a president makes as decision, it is for the country. So Ukraine turned it down. Then it was sold not as trade association, but as EU membership, something that was in no way offered at the time.

You can make all the generalisations and assumptions you want about how noble Ukrainians wanted change. Fact is, if Ukraine had signed on November 21 there would not have been a single person demonstrating as the eu would not have reason to back protests.

Agree.
If E. Ukraine doesn't want NATO or EU, then forget it. Crimea didn't want it either.
Do your math .

[Boethius]

Your article shows it was a small group. The many more were simply not there.
If a president makes as decision, it is for the country. So Ukraine turned it down. Then it was sold not as trade association, but as EU membership, something that was in no way offered at the time.

You can make all the generalisations and assumptions you want about how noble Ukrainians wanted change. Fact is, if Ukraine had signed on November 21 there would not have been a single person demonstrating as the eu would not have reason to back protests.

The many were not there to support Yanukovych's decision.  He did not have the support of his own party to implement the decision he desired.  You continue to overlook this.  His own party did not support his decision.


The Association Agreement was not sold as a membership agreement with the EU.  Most demonstrators knew that Ukraine was not going to become an EU member.  However, EU standards were something they did desire.


The EU did not "back" the protests.  I believe they were there because they wanted a peaceful conclusion to the matter.  Russia, OTOH, and its supporters assumed shooting people would be the way to end the protests.

[Doll]

The many were not there to support Yanukovych's decision.  He did not have the support of his own party to implement the decision he desired.  You continue to overlook this.  His own party did not support his decision.


The Association Agreement was not sold as a membership agreement with the EU.  Most demonstrators knew that Ukraine was not going to become an EU member.  However, EU standards were something they did desire.


The EU did not "back" the protests.  I believe they were there because they wanted a peaceful conclusion to the matter.  Russia, OTOH, and its supporters assumed shooting people would be the way to end the protests.

OMG!

[Boethius]

You don't have to believe it, Doll.  It is accurate, though. 


Read the NYT article I linked.  Yanukovych lost the support of the Party of Regions.  The police left Kyiv shortly after shooting a number of protesters.  That is why Yanukovych left Kyiv, and, at the time, he assumed he'd be back.

[Doll]

Boe, do you know that Yanokovich was "removed' from his post ILEGALLY?
Of course you know

Yanukovych rejected a pending EU association agreement, choosing instead to pursue a Russian loan bailout and closer ties with Russia. This led to popular protests and the occupation of Kiev's Independence Square, a series of events dubbed the "Euromaidan" by young pro-European Union Ukrainians. In January 2014, this developed into deadly clashes in Independence Square and in other areas across Ukraine, as Ukrainian citizens confronted the Berkut and other special police units.[6] In February 2014, Ukraine appeared to be on the brink of civil war, as violent clashes between protesters and special police forces led to many deaths and injuries.[7][8][9] On 21 February 2014, Yanukovych claimed that, after lengthy discussions, he had reached an agreement with the opposition.[10] Later that day, however, he fled the capital for Kharkiv, travelling next to the Crimea, and eventually to exile in southern Russia.[11]

On 22 February, the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove him from his post, on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties,[12] although the legislative removal lacked the number of votes required by Ukraine's then-current constitution.[13][14][15] Parliament set 25 May as the date for the special election to select his replacement,[12][16][17][18] and, two days later, issued a warrant for his arrest, accusing him

[Boethius]

He was not removed.  He fled the country.

[Doll]

You don't have to believe it, Doll.  It is accurate, though. 


Read the NYT article I linked.  Yanukovych lost the support of the Party of Regions.  The police left Kyiv shortly after shooting a number of protesters.  That is why Yanukovych left Kyiv, and, at the time, he assumed he'd be back.

Now you read MY link

[Boethius]

I did read it.  It does not change the fact Yanukovych fled the country.

[Shadow]

The many were not there to support Yanukovych's decision.  He did not have the support of his own party to implement the decision he desired.  You continue to overlook this.  His own party did not support his decision.


The Association Agreement was not sold as a membership agreement with the EU.  Most demonstrators knew that Ukraine was not going to become an EU member.  However, EU standards were something they did desire.


The EU did not "back" the protests.  I believe they were there because they wanted a peaceful conclusion to the matter.  Russia, OTOH, and its supporters assumed shooting people would be the way to end the protests.

You are going in circles, and getting nowhere.
Yes, the trade agreement was sold as membership. Just check out old posts here between november 20 2013 and february 2014. It was discussed here.
Yes the EU backed the protestors. Once again, check old posts.
If thre president was not supported by his party, they could have acted in november. No need to wait.

You are constantly trying to turn the story away from the facts. However the facts remain.
Perhaps people feel it is needed to polish away the blemishes and make it look like pure nobility. Reality tells it was nothing but a political game.

the moment is was said 'WE HAVE WON'I predicted that nthing was won, but it was just the start of trouble. Unfortunately I was right, buet even I had not expected it to last this long.

[Boethius]

You are going in circles, and getting nowhere.
Yes, the trade agreement was sold as membership. Just check out old posts here between november 20 2013 and february 2014. It was discussed here.

I didn't realize Euromaidan protesters were posting here.

Yes the EU backed the protestors. Once again, check old posts.

See above.

If thre president was not supported by his party, they could have acted in november. No need to wait.

But they didn't.

You are constantly trying to turn the story away from the facts. However the facts remain.

No, you are trying to change the story.  The story is, a majority of Ukrainians, slight, but a majority, always supported the Association Agreement.  Some of those Ukrainians were willing to protest for months to make their views known.

Perhaps people feel it is needed to polish away the blemishes and make it look like pure nobility. Reality tells it was nothing but a political game.

For some, it was a political game.  But for many of those protesters, it was about the future of their country.  Many gave their lives for that future.

the moment is was said 'WE HAVE WON'I predicted that nthing was won, but it was just the start of trouble. Unfortunately I was right, buet even I had not expected it to last this long.

Sure, but then, who could have predicted their neighbour would invade them?  I suppose it was predictable if one takes one's lessons from history, rather than assuming Russia has joined the modern world.

[Shadow]

You are the one denying the true story, not me. And yes, the things were discussed here. Read back.

As for predicting, once it became clear who was in the new government and what their agenda was, it was simple to predict the Russian actions. It was less sinple to predict how stubborn the Donbass protests would be, or how ruthless they woudl be attacked, seeding a deep conflict that lasts today.

[Boethius]

You are the one denying the true story, not me. And yes, the things were discussed here. Read back.

As for predicting, once it became clear who was in the new government and what their agenda was, it was simple to predict the Russian actions. It was less sinple to predict how stubborn the Donbass protests would be, or how ruthless they woudl be attacked, seeding a deep conflict that lasts today.

No, I am denying that what you post is the "true story". I don't happen to believe it is.


The protests in Donbas were never supported by a majority there, and the attacks came first from the so called "protesters", who killed those with whom they disagreed.  That is what lead to troops being called there.


WRT Russia, it is not their place to decide who rules Ukraine.  Elections were held, whether Russia likes it or not.

[Shadow]

No, I am denying that what you post is the "true story". I don't happen to believe it is.


The protests in Donbas were never supported by a majority there, and the attacks came first from the so called "protesters", who killed those with whom they disagreed.  That is what lead to troops being called there.


WRT Russia, it is not their place to decide who rules Ukraine.  Elections were held, whether Russia likes it or not.

You can choose not to believe it, but that does not change it.
Also the protests were supported very wide what I know and saw. Which the Kiev supports would deny, so we can go in cicles about this for a ges as well. It is up to what you wish to believe to justify your position.

If you hold elections, should not all country take part? Why point at the regime in Syria being illegal for not allowing areas to participate, but not holding Kiev to the same standard?
I fully agree that Russia has no business in if or when Ukraine holds elections. But if the government of Ukraine wishes to act like they have support of all Ukrainians, they should also find a way for all to be represented.

[Boethius]

You can choose not to believe it, but that does not change it.
Also the protests were supported very wide what I know and saw.

Yes, they were widely supported, by just over half the population.  That is not an insignificant number.

If you hold elections, should not all country take part? Why point at the regime in Syria being illegal for not allowing areas to participate, but not holding Kiev to the same standard?

The only area of Ukraine which did not participate is Crimea.  There were voting booths in Donbas.  In some regions, the terrorists chose to disrupt the election, and some voters did not participate because of fear.  However, there are sitting members of the Rada from Donbas.

I fully agree that Russia has no business in if or when Ukraine holds elections. But if the government of Ukraine wishes to act like they have support of all Ukrainians, they should also find a way for all to be represented.

Other than Crimeans, all regions of Ukraine are represented.

[Shadow]

Yes, they were widely supported, by just over half the population.  That is not an insignificant number.



The only area of Ukraine which did not participate is Crimea.  There were voting booths in Donbas.  In some regions, the terrorists chose to disrupt the election, and some voters did not participate because of fear.  However, there are sitting members of the Rada from Donbas.


Other than Crimeans, all regions of Ukraine are represented.

In Donetsk no offices were opened. The only places a vote could be cast were in villages on the outskirts of the Donbass area. Not anywhere near a true representation.
The conflict was used to deny the Donbass are a vote in the government.
Do you find it strange that if you are attacked by your government nad not given a chance to participate in elections that people have zero faith in that government wanting to support them?

[Doll]

I did read it.  It does not change the fact Yanukovych fled the country.

Well. then if he was removed illegally then everythng that followed it was illegal.
Fled the country? I'lll show you at least 20 presidents who did same.
 

[Boethius]

Well. then if he was removed illegally then everythng that followed it was illegal.
Fled the country? I'lll show you at least 20 presidents who did same.

He wasn't removed.  He fled the country.  That, under Ukraine's constitution, amounts to resigning.

[calmissile]

It really doesn't matter, nor worth the time arguing about it.  It is water under the bridge.  The new government was legally elected by the people and represents what they want now.

The same excuse does not hold true to Crimea!  There was not a fair election and choices were not presented to the residents that allowed Crimea to remain part of Ukraine.  Big difference.

[mendeleyev]

Ludmila, the scope of your ignorance, and thus resulting hatred, regarding Ukraine is breathtaking. The Ukrainian people suffered greatly under Germany, but undoubtedly you will try to convince me otherwise. Please do not waste your time-I possess at least a modest degree of intelligence and culture, therefore your efforts will be useless.

As an aside, I do like your avatar. The Cathedral of Christ the Saviour is often where we worship. Our home church is Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker (Khamovniki), but as Christ Cathedral is the national cathedral, I must be there often.

Regardless of our differences of opinion, I wish you a happy Christmas!

Someday you should write, and show photos, of the Golden Ring. It is one of my favourite areas in Moscow.

[Shadow]

It really doesn't matter, nor worth the time arguing about it.  It is water under the bridge.  The new government was legally elected by the people and represents what they want now.

The same excuse does not hold true to Crimea!  There was not a fair election and choices were not presented to the residents that allowed Crimea to remain part of Ukraine.  Big difference.

An election you aupport is legal and correct. An election you do not support is fraudulent and illegal.
Standard pattern throughout the world.

[jone]

Ludmila, the scope of your ignorance, and thus resulting hatred, regarding Ukraine is breathtaking. The Ukrainian people suffered greatly under Germany, but undoubtedly you will try to convince me otherwise. Please do not waste your time-I possess at least a modest degree of intelligence and culture, therefore your efforts will be useless.

As an aside, I do like your avatar. The Cathedral of Christ the Saviour is often where we worship. Our home church is Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker (Khamovniki), but as Christ Cathedral is the national cathedral, I must be there often.

Regardless of our differences of opinion, I wish you a happy Christmas!

Someday you should write, and show photos, of the Golden Ring. It is one of my favourite areas in Moscow.

Mende,

Is there a golden ring in Moscow?  I always thought that the Golden Ring was comprised of Vladimir, Nizny Novgorod, Yaroslavl, Ivanovo, etc.  (Oh, I can't forget Suzdal.)

[Doll]

Ludmila, the scope of your ignorance, and thus resulting hatred, regarding Ukraine is breathtaking. 

 

Easy! Hear me?

[Doll]

Boe, you wanted links how Poroshenko  does not want peace and this link not from Russian newspapers?
You have it
http://www.dw.de/ukraine-preparing-for-war-despite-peace-talks/a-18172158