What Explains Russians loss of Memory ?

[bagalia]

Does anyone have an explanation for this huge loss of memory by Russian persons?

Nationalism: Loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially :  a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.

All countries are affected by it and the larger the country the bigger the effect.

[Photo Guy]

Muhz,
the Fact is...
Intelligent people will get their news from many sources. Stupid people listen to only one or two sources of information, and then obey.

The murders in Paris today, show us a threatening barbaric state of mind. The French reaction shows us a people who cherish their freedoms. Freedom of expression and freedom of speech do not exist in many parts of the world, including Russia. What kind of spin will RT put on these murders?

Russians are probably scratching their heads. If they think about it, they'll discover really good reasons for governments to allow public dissent, political satire, freedom of expression, and the power of common people to control their own governments.   

Most Russians, apparently, do not understand the value of these freedoms. That's very sad. Whoever does not understand Western values, will certainly not understand the goals of most Ukrainians. I think that's the main issue with this Russian aggression, that, sadly, is supported by the Russian people. Russian people do not understand the values of the French people: Liberty, Fraternity, Equality. The divide between Russia and Ukraine is all about ideology.

[Photo Guy]

bagalia,
that's true but an over-generalization.
The structure of the EU runs counter to that idea. Many Americans are not very nationalistic.

[Boethius]

Welcome to the forum, baglia.  Nice to "see" you here.

[Shadow]

Muhz,
the Fact is...
Intelligent people will get their news from many sources. Stupid people listen to only one or two sources of information, and then obey.

The murders in Paris today, show us a threatening barbaric state of mind. The French reaction shows us a people who cherish their freedoms. Freedom of expression and freedom of speech do not exist in many parts of the world, including Russia. What kind of spin will RT put on these murders?

Russians are probably scratching their heads. If they think about it, they'll discover really good reasons for governments to allow public dissent, political satire, freedom of expression, and the power of common people to control their own governments.   

Most Russians, apparently, do not understand the value of these freedoms. That's very sad. Whoever does not understand Western values, will certainly not understand the goals of most Ukrainians. I think that's the main issue with this Russian aggression, that, sadly, is supported by the Russian people. Russian people do not understand the values of the French people: Liberty, Fraternity, Equality. The divide between Russia and Ukraine is all about ideology.

Russia has more than enough experience with jihadism and terrorist attacks to give this a place.

[Photo Guy]

Will RT skip the part about 'freedom of expression'???

[Shadow]

Will RT skip the part about 'freedom of expression'???

Of course not. It may skip the part about 'western media are free' though.

[ML]

Nationalism: Loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially :  a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.

All countries are affected by it and the larger the country the bigger the effect.

I understand your words, but . . . .

I do not see in your words any answer to the conundrum posed in the original posting in this thread:

She went on a great length telling about how in late 1980s and early 1990s, the citizens of all countries of FSU came to learn and understand that they had been lied to continuously by the Soviet Government and the media that was  controlled by the Soviet Government.

She knew that never again would the people of these former SU countries believe the media if it were controlled by the government.

Thus, it is now incomprehensible to her how these same Russian persons are now once again believing what they are being told by the government and media controlled by the government.

[AC]

Russia has more than enough experience with jihadism and terrorist attacks to give this a place.

What do you mean by "give this a place"?  That's a very odd wording in English, could you expand on it?

I do agree with you that Russia has a lot of experience in dealing with Islamic extremists and terrorists.  I don't have any doubt that prior to the Olympics the family members of certain possible suspects were rounded up and told point blank that if their relatives committed any acts of terror that the entire family and friends of the terrorist might suddenly "disappear".  Having the ability to deal with these types of people in that way puts Russia at an advantage over the West.

[Brasscasing]

What do you mean by "give this a place"?  That's a very odd wording in English, could you expand on it?...
...Having the ability to deal with these types of people in that way puts Russia at an advantage over the West.

Brass

[Muzh]

I don't know where this rant comes from based on the quoted comment.   I don't entirely disagree that people USUALLY here what they want to hear....THat said...the point of my post wasn't more a jab at the people keeping info away from the media so it can't be reported....thankfully we get a leaker every so often that spills the beans and lets the public in on a few (usually dirty)secrets.


Fathertime!

Don't take it personally, sweetcheeks. It was NOT directed at you. 

[Muzh]

Nationalism: Loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially :  a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.

All countries are affected by it and the larger the country the bigger the effect.

Ah, I see you like Umberto Eco's definition also. 


Edit: Ooops, where are my manners? Welcome here bagalia.   

[Shadow]

What do you mean by "give this a place"?  That's a very odd wording in English, could you expand on it?

I do agree with you that Russia has a lot of experience in dealing with Islamic extremists and terrorists.  I don't have any doubt that prior to the Olympics the family members of certain possible suspects were rounded up and told point blank that if their relatives committed any acts of terror that the entire family and friends of the terrorist might suddenly "disappear".  Having the ability to deal with these types of people in that way puts Russia at an advantage over the West.

Give it a place is a Dunglish expression which means they will put the attack in the context of Muslim terror.
Besides there used to be (remember my current most watch TV is "Timmy Time") more than enough humour that criticized the government.

[fathertime]

Don't take it personally, sweetcheeks. It was NOT directed at you. 

Gotcha sugarplum!   


Fathertime!   

[bagalia]

I understand your words, but . . . .

I do not see in your words any answer to the conundrum posed in the original posting in this thread:

She went on a great length telling about how in late 1980s and early 1990s, the citizens of all countries of FSU came to learn and understand that they had been lied to continuously by the Soviet Government and the media that was  controlled by the Soviet Government.

She knew that never again would the people of these former SU countries believe the media if it were controlled by the government.

Thus, it is now incomprehensible to her how these same Russian persons are now once again believing what they are being told by the government and media controlled by the government.

OK, I tried to keep it simple. I will now do a mini rant. Keep in mind it is just opinion.

I had the same discussion with my wife as you did with yours however I had already lived some years in Russia before I met her and had come to a conclusion of my own. It was the same reason why I moved on to Ukraine.

You specifically mentioned how former SU countries were lied to. The lies were more personal to these countries. The lies were of atrocities, genocide, betrayals etc. Of course ethnic Russians were lied to also but it was not so personal. They were only lied to. Not to say that Russians did not get hurt from these lies also but not at all like the FSU countries and not just FSU but also other countries who crossed the SU path.

So what if next year after industrialized Eastern Ukraine is a totally destroyed wasteland and the war is over, Putin were to admit that he had a fair sized army there from the beginning? There would be some mothers in Russia directly affected who might feel betrayed. There might be a movement of sorts but overall he would likely still be extremely popular.... because of the strong Nationalism that exists. On the other hand Ukraine would be even more off the charts angry and might wonder why Russians were not so angry also.

The wife believes the answer to your question lies with propaganda, something in the neighborhood of 60/40 vs Nationalism. I believe that people are born into Nationalism long before they get to the propaganda 60/40 or at the very least that Nationalism is the stronger of the two. Your propaganda will not mean much to me without it.

There are probably Russians here that will hate my guts for saying this. There are many open minded fellows here that will say I am generalizing a whole country. Sorry but I have literally met several thousand Russians and either openly or quietly a majority of the ethnic chosen ones have shown me that they are the most prejudice and Nationalist people I ever met (I've never been to the Arab world).

Just so I don't come off as totally loony with hatred for Russians I will say that I do not hate anyone. I believe in the human condition and can accept most anything. I also believe that the US is #2 on the list. And on that subject I will add that I do not believe Nationalism requires intelligence or action. I believe that many Americans are ignorant of the rest of the world, could care less about it and because of that are just as Nationalistic via their ignorance. In other words, there is nothing outside their own little world.

What I did come away with in my point of view is that a large amount of Russians have their nose up in the air and will either believe anything the government says or they just want it to be that way because they are better. A mentality of "If you have been harmed by us then it is your own fault". Again, something you can find in the US but not as pervasive in my opinion.

Ukraine is not a brother to the Russian people. They are not family. A slave owner in the old south might call his slaves part of his family but they are not so similar. In this case Ukrainians are not ethnic Russians. They share some language and some history but they are not blood really. They are only a buffer with NATO, a place to be burned before the army can get to the motherland, an economy to be exploited.

And so that is my opinion and my answer. Simply put, it doesn't matter to a majority of ethnic Russians. Whatever ill's occurred to you it was likely your own fault, etc. Russian Nationalism. IMO

[Doll]

Hahahaha
Everybody here say that Ukraine was ( and is) independent, so what about slaves again?

[bagalia]

Hahahaha
Everybody here say that Ukraine was ( and is) independent, so about slaves again?

I was comparing American slaves with how their owners sometimes referred to them as family. It was a copout that attempted to cover up the slavery. Russia likes to refer to Ukraine as brothers and sisters. They also are not. It also is a copout.

Also, the opinions of others here have little to do with mine. I would not wish to burden them with that.

[Doll]

I understood that you compared with American slaves but again- the whole board keeps saying that Ukraine was independent after 1991.
Russians and Ukrainians are not brothers but who?

[AC]

Ukraine is not a brother to the Russian people. They are not family. A slave owner in the old south might call his slaves part of his family but they are not so similar. In this case Ukrainians are not ethnic Russians. They share some language and some history but they are not blood really. They are only a buffer with NATO, a place to be burned before the army can get to the motherland, an economy to be exploited.

 

Excellent analysis.  I previously have said that the former Soviet Union was always dominated by Russia and Russians and I don't see it as being the theoretical Communist paradise without national identity.  That's simply totally bogus.  They may have tried to some extent to create a Soviet identity and they probably did to some extent but in the end it was always driven from Moscow and Moscow has always had a superiority attitude exactly like you've described.  I got grief because previously I made a very dry humor joke about wanting Moscow to be hit by a meteor strike (as if the USA could arrange it) and yet the people there are often so egocentric towards Ukraine and other E. European countries that it might do them some good to get a taste of their own medicine.

[AC]

I understood that you compared with American slaves but again- the whole board keeps saying that Ukraine was independent after 1991.
Russians and Ukrainians are not brothers but who?

How could Russians and Ukrainians be brothers when your dear leader claims that Ukrainians are a bunch of fascist Nazi's???  Are you making a Freudian slip and admitting that Russians are a bunch of fascists?

[Doll]

How could Russians and Ukrainians be brothers when your dear leader claims that Ukrainians are a bunch of fascist Nazi's???  Are you making a Freudian slip and admitting that Russians are a bunch of fascists?

I don' t follow this logic
You are just joking

[AkMike]

`Tis not a joke.

[Shadow]

How could Russians and Ukrainians be brothers when your dear leader claims that Ukrainians are a bunch of fascist Nazi's???  Are you making a Freudian slip and admitting that Russians are a bunch of fascists?

Do brothers necessarily have the same p9olitical views?
The brotherhood whic is now denies lies in the fact that the countries originated from the same source. While the Kiev Rus are forever jealous their leadership was stolen by Mosccow, still they were the one that formed the border region, the Ukraine..
As for Soviet times, rememeber it was a Socialist state, as communism was only the target but not reached.
In striving for communism, it had to become the prevalent ideology, which did not leave room for individual nationalism (only nationalism as Soviet) or religion.
The current denial of brotherhood shows Ukrainians not to be any less nationalistic as Russians.

[Doll]

.
The current denial of brotherhood shows Ukrainians not to be any less nationalistic as Russians.

Which IS loss of memory.

[Doll]