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Author Topic: Ukraine is losing the war  (Read 144252 times)

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Offline BillyB

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #100 on: January 20, 2015, 10:04:18 AM »
If the Poroshenko government fails, the West, Europe and America will go down as well.



I don't think we'll go down if they go down but it's bad for our image and good for Russia's. The West has promoted democracy in Ukraine as we do in other countries around the world. Those people in other countries are watching us. If we don't back those people to the very end, why should they have a revolution in their own nations knowing that we'll abandoned them and allow them to get slaughtered? We'd apply sanction on those slaughtering them but that's all we'll do. After seeing how the West takes care of Ukraine, those wanting freedom would rather be Red(Russian) than dead.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #101 on: January 20, 2015, 10:19:28 AM »
I am not a registered Ukrainian voter so what I think doesn't matter, and neither do I want the US government, or any other entity, thinking about the issue.

If we truly want the Ukrainian people to be free, then we cannot go around choosing their leaders for them.

But, getting to the heart of why you asked the question, those two and the Rada have a lot of roadblocks, including a past legacy of corruption and the present issue of a shrinking economy as all the while they try to deal with urgent issues of an invasion.

Back off. Support and encourage, but do not pressure.

I do not believe the Poroshenko government or any government would accept the Minsk agreement without pressure.  We in the West encouraged this revolution and now we expect these Ukrainians to reform their government, grow their economy, tax the dog spit out of their citizens, submit to the never ending EU dog and pony show that is their bureaucracy and defeat the mafia fascists to the East?

What a cruel joke . . .

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #102 on: January 20, 2015, 10:22:44 AM »

I don't think we'll go down if they go down but it's bad for our image and good for Russia's. The West has promoted democracy in Ukraine as we do in other countries around the world. Those people in other countries are watching us. If we don't back those people to the very end, why should they have a revolution in their own nations knowing that we'll abandoned them and allow them to get slaughtered? We'd apply sanction on those slaughtering them but that's all we'll do. After seeing how the West takes care of Ukraine, those wanting freedom would rather be Red(Russian) than dead.

Western diplomatic circles do not use the word honor very much.  And you are right to criticize the NATO performance during the Libyan war.  If the Poroshenko government fails, the NATO alliance will be weakened and frankly I question its purpose.

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #103 on: January 20, 2015, 10:59:33 AM »

If we don't back those people to the very end, why should they have a revolution in their own nations knowing that we'll abandoned them and allow them to get slaughtered?


Because it is their own destiny and not what we decide should be their destiny?


When a country the size of Ukraine decides enough is enough, they should take care of business themselves. Have they addressed their cancer? Nope. It's still there.


It sure would be easy that every Tom, Dick, and Harry decided to have a revolution and then ask the USA to bail them out but that is NOT the way the yarn is spin.


But then again, back to the Cold War.


Man, it is almost impossible to get rid of relics.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #104 on: January 20, 2015, 11:00:40 AM »
I do not believe the Poroshenko government or any government would accept the Minsk agreement without pressure.  We in the West encouraged this revolution and now we expect these Ukrainians to reform their government, grow their economy, tax the dog spit out of their citizens, submit to the never ending EU dog and pony show that is their bureaucracy and defeat the mafia fascists to the East?

What a cruel joke . . .


Want to share your sources?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #105 on: January 20, 2015, 11:01:38 AM »
Western diplomatic circles do not use the word honor very much.  And you are right to criticize the NATO performance during the Libyan war.  If the Poroshenko government fails, the NATO alliance will be weakened and frankly I question its purpose.


For heavens sake, step away from the keyboard.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #106 on: January 20, 2015, 11:03:44 AM »
So we in the West did not encourage this revolution? #unitedforukraine #Euromaidan #FuckPutin

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #107 on: January 20, 2015, 11:04:23 AM »

For heavens sake, step away from the keyboard.

Why exactly?

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #108 on: January 20, 2015, 11:05:03 AM »
So we in the West did not encourage this revolution? #unitedforukraine #Euromaidan #FuckPutin


You mean, after the facts?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline lonedrake

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #109 on: January 20, 2015, 11:07:52 AM »
Marta wanted me to post this about Roshen in Russia.

Quote
The project is the installation of equipment for production of wafer rolls with chocolate fudge and milk will be implemented by the release from custody of assets.
Recall that the Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation stopped loud criminal case against the confectionery company "Roshen", the owner of which is still the president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko. At the same time the arrest was withdrawn from the accounts of the company in the amount of 2.5 billion rubles. That portion of these funds will be invested in the installation of two production lines in one of the shops at the Lipetsk site "Roshena."

As Deputy Director of the Lipetsk "Roshena" Oleg Kazakov, technological equipment for new types of confectionery products were purchased even before the factory became involved in the case.

Production lines will be installed in May this year. Guide "Roshena" does not exclude the possibility that, in connection with the launch of the process equipment, the company will re-open a number of vacancies. According to Oleg Kazakov, will take part in the work of those professionals who have been forcibly dismissed at the end of last year.

Vladislav DEREVYASHKIN

- See more at:http://www.lipetsknews.ru/articles/biznes/na-lipeckom-roshene-zapustyat-dve-novye-proizvodstvennye-linii#sthash.IGbTq19J.dpuf
Wrong?


http://www.lipetsknews.ru/articles/biznes/na-lipeckom-roshene-zapustyat-dve-novye-proizvodstvennye-linii

Offline TheBullRDR

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #110 on: January 20, 2015, 11:10:43 AM »
I thought you all might like to see this. 

http://www.funker530.com/war-effects-in-ukraine-seen-from-the-air/

Offline AC

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #111 on: January 20, 2015, 11:33:28 AM »
Jay and Mendy, how long should we give the Poroshenko-Yatseniuk government?

Who is we?  Were you born in Ukraine?  Are you Ukrainian?  If so you can vote in their next election.

Offline AC

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #112 on: January 20, 2015, 11:35:01 AM »
Yeah right whatever

If the Poroshenko government fails, the West, Europe and America will go down as well.

 :ROFL:

Offline Doll

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #113 on: January 20, 2015, 11:36:42 AM »
I thought you all might like to see this. 

http://www.funker530.com/war-effects-in-ukraine-seen-from-the-air/
Quote
One of my good friends from high school is actually from Crimea. Her family still lives there in the ruins,
BS, there are NO ruins in Crimea

Offline AC

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #114 on: January 20, 2015, 11:37:41 AM »
I do not believe the Poroshenko government or any government would accept the Minsk agreement without pressure.  We in the West encouraged this revolution and now we expect these Ukrainians to reform their government, grow their economy, tax the dog spit out of their citizens, submit to the never ending EU dog and pony show that is their bureaucracy and defeat the mafia fascists to the East?

What a cruel joke . . .

And so now you agree with the pro-Putin crowd that Maidan was a US conspiracy?   :rolleyes:

Offline AC

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #115 on: January 20, 2015, 11:40:33 AM »
Western diplomatic circles do not use the word honor very much.  And you are right to criticize the NATO performance during the Libyan war.  If the Poroshenko government fails, the NATO alliance will be weakened and frankly I question its purpose.

Aren't you over there in Ukraine to see your SO?  Shouldn't you be spending time with her?  What are you doing here worrying about things way beyond your control?

Offline Steamer

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #116 on: January 20, 2015, 11:44:18 AM »
I thought you all might like to see this. 


Looks exactly like Detroit, maybe better.
Life ain't nothing but a poker game
And no two hands are quite the same
But I never saw a winner that didn't bet

Offline jone

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #117 on: January 20, 2015, 11:53:26 AM »
Marta wanted me to post this about Roshen in Russia.


http://www.lipetsknews.ru/articles/biznes/na-lipeckom-roshene-zapustyat-dve-novye-proizvodstvennye-linii

Lone Drake,

Correct me if I am wrong, but I read somewhere that Poroshenko put all of his business interests into a Trust.  This is the same thing our Presidents do to avoid conflict of interest charges.  So even if his company is still in control of this factory, he does not have any access to his company until after he is out of office.

Can someone tell me if I am barking up the wrong tree?


Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline BillyB

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #118 on: January 20, 2015, 11:58:58 AM »
I'm with good company regarding those who thought the same. And guess what? You wouldn't stand a minute discussing with them before you are escorted out of the panel.  ;)



I'm glad you're happy being around some of the smartest people in the world that believed Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine. You're right, I'm not in their class.


Because it is their own destiny and not what we decide should be their destiny?



Destiny? Fate? Living in fantasy land are we? Deal with reality. After WW2 we saw our friends, our allies, the countries we liberated become our enemies because the USSR put guns in the hands of people that didn't trust destiny to do the job of regime change. Now America plays the same game but if we don't play it, the world becomes a dangerous place.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline jone

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #119 on: January 20, 2015, 12:09:40 PM »
Billy,

While Muzh may have mused that Russia would not invade, I remember other discussions by him that intimated that Russia was the big gorilla in the room and could invade if it so chose.  I think you do our intrepid thinker an injustice.  Moreover, I find Muzh's take on political thought more in line with my thinking on Ukraine than the far right rags you have recently shared on this forum.

The simple fact is that the US cannot maintain credibility elsewhere in the world in places it is much more needed than in Ukraine in dealing with Russia and her allies.  Leave the arming of Ukraine to some of the lesser contributors to NATO.   It is on their doorstep and they have the resources and the ability.  I would love to see a Leopard 2 take on a T-72.  Germany has more to gain and more to lose than any country other than Ukraine in this engagement from my point of view.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline BillyB

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #120 on: January 20, 2015, 12:21:24 PM »
I remember other discussions by him that intimated that Russia was the big gorilla in the room and could invade if it so chose.  I think you do our intrepid thinker an injustice.



Let our intrepid thinker speak for himself. Don't assume, if you have proof he said Russia could invade, provide it. All I remember him doing is running around this forum, typing in caps, and ridiculing me for saying Russia is going in. That's his style of debating. You didn't come to my defense then, don't come to his. He's a big boy and he can cry anyway he wants to.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Doll

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #121 on: January 20, 2015, 12:22:32 PM »
I thought you all might like to see this. 

http://www.funker530.com/war-effects-in-ukraine-seen-from-the-air/
Donetsk is being bombed by Poroshenko

Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #122 on: January 20, 2015, 12:25:06 PM »
No it isn't.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #123 on: January 20, 2015, 12:26:52 PM »

Let our intrepid thinker speak for himself. Don't assume, if you have proof he said Russia could invade, provide it. All I remember him doing is running around this forum, typing in caps, and ridiculing me for saying Russia is going in. That's his style of debating. You didn't come to my defense then, don't come to his. He's a big boy and he can cry anyway he wants to.


Heh


I also talked about your phallic obsession in your avatar.


Heh, heh, heh
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine is losing the war
« Reply #124 on: January 20, 2015, 12:29:50 PM »
Donetsk is being bombed by Poroshenko


And how do you know that?


By looking at your crystal ball?


To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

 

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