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Author Topic: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine  (Read 95359 times)

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lordtiberius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #175 on: February 09, 2015, 05:45:46 PM »
Quote from: Boethius on February 09, 2015, 05:07:03 PM
Most of the Ukrainians fighting are from Central/Western Ukraine.

Not true.  Eastern Ukrainians are fighting against the Russian federation - notably the Donna's battalion.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 05:48:59 PM by lordtiberius »
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #176 on: February 09, 2015, 05:46:22 PM »
Quote from: Muzh on February 09, 2015, 05:41:14 PM

Do you play left field for the Angels? Because that is where you are all the time.


The simple fact is Russia wants Ukraine on its knees and the way to achieve that is by bankrupting the country.


Now, do I have to spell it for you how Ukraine will be bankrupt if they are to take on a frozen conflict?


Well Muzh yes spell it out for me...and try to do it nicely and I'll read intently. 


Fathertime!   
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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #177 on: February 09, 2015, 05:47:08 PM »
Quote from: lordtiberius on February 09, 2015, 05:45:46 PM
Not true.  Eastern Ukrainians are fighting for the Russian federation - notably the Donna's battalion.

I meant for Ukraine. :)
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lordtiberius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #178 on: February 09, 2015, 05:48:03 PM »
Quote from: fathertime on February 09, 2015, 05:16:17 PM

Concerned about a wider war that we get ensnared into...and nuclear possibilities several steps down the line...not willing to do go this route over Ukraine....
 

Why is Ukraine worth going nuclear over?  Why is Russia threatening all of us even you with a nuclear apocalypse?
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Offline Muzh

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #179 on: February 09, 2015, 05:49:33 PM »
Quote from: fathertime on February 09, 2015, 05:46:22 PM

Well Muzh yes spell it out for me...and try to do it nicely and I'll read intently. 


Fathertime!


I'd love to explain things to you, but first you have to do your homework.


Start here.
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To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

lordtiberius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #180 on: February 09, 2015, 05:49:43 PM »
Quote from: Boethius on February 09, 2015, 05:47:08 PM

I meant for Ukraine. :)

I mucked up.  Donbas battalion is fighting for Ukraine.  Sorry.
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #181 on: February 09, 2015, 05:50:59 PM »
Quote from: Boethius on February 09, 2015, 05:45:01 PM
    He assumes this is about Donbas/Eastern Ukraine, when we know that is not the case.
...as usual you are stating this as FACT...when it is your opinion.   That is not what I was 'assuming' so I don't know why you are attributing this line of reasoning to me.


You, and other believe that Russia is going for all of Ukraine, I don't think that is going to happen,and isn't really a viable possibility. 


Fathertime!   
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #182 on: February 09, 2015, 05:52:48 PM »
Quote from: lordtiberius on February 09, 2015, 05:48:03 PM
Why is Ukraine worth going nuclear over?  Why is Russia threatening all of us even you with a nuclear apocalypse?


It isn't worth it for us...evidence is showing it means a lot to Russia. 


Fathertime! 
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lordtiberius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #183 on: February 09, 2015, 05:53:55 PM »
Quote from: fathertime on February 09, 2015, 05:27:56 PM

There is no saying how that would play out...who would wind up arising from the aftermath and with what left, but it wouldn't be good for the USA...and it isn't necessary.


Fathertime!

When are nuclear weapons necessary?
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lordtiberius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #184 on: February 09, 2015, 05:56:06 PM »
Quote from: fathertime on February 09, 2015, 05:52:48 PM

It isn't worth it for us...evidence is showing it means a lot to Russia. 


Fathertime!

Why is Ukraine that important to Russia to threaten everyone with nukes?  Why does Russia get to threaten nukes?
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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #185 on: February 09, 2015, 05:57:04 PM »
Quote from: fathertime on February 09, 2015, 05:50:59 PM
...as usual you are stating this as FACT...when it is your opinion.   That is not what I was 'assuming' so I don't know why you are attributing this line of reasoning to me.


You, and other believe that Russia is going for all of Ukraine, I don't think that is going to happen,and isn't really a viable possibility. 


Fathertime!   

No.  Russia is not interested in an all out war with Ukraine.  It wants a war the scale of which is occurring now, because it will bankrupt Ukraine, and achieve Russia's goal (which is to bankrupt Ukraine).  Russia does not want the economic responsibility of 44 million Ukrainians.  It just doesn't want them to have a better life.
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Offline Muzh

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #186 on: February 09, 2015, 05:57:49 PM »
Quote from: fathertime on February 09, 2015, 05:50:59 PM
...as usual you are stating this as FACT...when it is your opinion.   That is not what I was 'assuming' so I don't know why you are attributing this line of reasoning to me.

Fathertime!   


Okay, now I'm confused too.


Can you be more specific what you were "assuming" was your win-win?
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #187 on: February 09, 2015, 05:58:18 PM »
Quote from: lordtiberius on February 09, 2015, 05:53:55 PM
When are nuclear weapons necessary?


Quote from: lordtiberius on February 09, 2015, 05:56:06 PM
Why is Ukraine that important to Russia to threaten everyone with nukes?  Why does Russia get to threaten nukes?


You will have to ask Putin/Obama that one...In many ways it is too bad they exist. 


Fathertime!   
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lordtiberius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #188 on: February 09, 2015, 05:58:27 PM »
Quote from: fathertime on February 09, 2015, 05:50:59 PM
...as usual you are stating this as FACT...when it is your opinion.   That is not what I was 'assuming' so I don't know why you are attributing this line of reasoning to me.


You, and other believe that Russia is going for all of Ukraine, I don't think that is going to happen,and isn't really a viable possibility. 


Fathertime!   

What makes you believe that?

Is the Russian army in Ukraine?
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lordtiberius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #189 on: February 09, 2015, 06:00:45 PM »
Quote from: fathertime on February 09, 2015, 05:58:18 PM


You will have to ask Putin/Obama that one...In many ways it is too bad they exist. 


Fathertime!

Do you approve of Putin's nuclear blackmail? Yes or no?
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #190 on: February 09, 2015, 06:04:16 PM »
Quote from: Muzh on February 09, 2015, 05:57:49 PM

Okay, now I'm confused too.


Can you be more specific what you were "assuming" was your win-win?


LIke many, I don't believe Russia really cares about the Eastern regions (out of altruism)...but they sure don't want NATO or an unfriendly neighbor right up on them,...That is what I was referring to...but yes I can see your confusion.  In addition, I can't say for certain I'm correct, so maybe you all will wind up right and Russia will take all of Ukraine...but I'm saying that isn't likely. 


Fathertime!   
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #191 on: February 09, 2015, 06:05:51 PM »
Quote from: lordtiberius on February 09, 2015, 05:58:27 PM

Is the Russian army in Ukraine?


When you begin asking repetitive and silly questions, the serious part of our conversation ends....nice talking to ya!  :)


Fathertime!   
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Offline Muzh

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #192 on: February 09, 2015, 06:06:32 PM »
Quote from: fathertime on February 09, 2015, 06:04:16 PM

LIke many, I don't believe Russia really cares about the Eastern regions (out of altruism)...but they sure don't want NATO or an unfriendly neighbor right up on them,...That is what I was referring to...but yes I can see your confusion.  In addition, I can't say for certain I'm correct, so maybe you all will wind up right and Russia will take all of Ukraine...but I'm saying that isn't likely. 


Fathertime!   


NATO was Putler's excuse just as the Sudenteland was for Hitler.
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lordtiberius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #193 on: February 09, 2015, 06:07:51 PM »
Quote from: Boethius on February 09, 2015, 05:57:04 PM

No.  Russia is not interested in an all out war with Ukraine.  It wants a war the scale of which is occurring now, because it will bankrupt Ukraine, and achieve Russia's goal (which is to bankrupt Ukraine).  Russia does not want the economic responsibility of 44 million Ukrainians.  It just doesn't want them to have a better life.

Then why is Alexander Dugin so popular in Russia?  Why do so many Russian mercenaries have Nazi tattoos?  Why do Russian soldiers humiliate POWs?
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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #194 on: February 09, 2015, 06:08:27 PM »
They aren't running the Russian government.
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lordtiberius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #195 on: February 09, 2015, 06:09:34 PM »
Quote from: Boethius on February 09, 2015, 06:08:27 PM
They aren't running the Russian government.

So you can assure me Putin won't invade all or nuke Ukraine?
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #196 on: February 09, 2015, 06:10:08 PM »
Quote from: Muzh on February 09, 2015, 06:06:32 PM

NATO was Putler's excuse just as the Sudenteland was for Hitler.


It is fine if you believe that....but I don't!  If you are proven correct and Russia invades other countries then I will be incorrect, and we can have our war at that point...it won't hurt to wait.   I'd rather err on the side of extreme caution when it comes to the type of confrontation this will entail. 


Fathertime!   
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Offline Boethius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #197 on: February 09, 2015, 06:11:02 PM »
Quote from: lordtiberius on February 09, 2015, 06:09:34 PM
So you can assure me Putin won't invade all or nuke Ukraine?
I don't think that is his plan. 
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Offline JayH

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #198 on: February 09, 2015, 06:11:39 PM »
Quote from: lordtiberius on February 09, 2015, 05:26:37 PM
Started?

No.  They reinforced them with Regular Army.

Correct--& important point.
There were Russian military in east Ukraine on day1-- fact not fiction.Initially special forces that helped grab key points-most did not stay long at that time--and handed over to mercenaries --but they were there and have been all along.
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SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

lordtiberius

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Re: The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine
« Reply #199 on: February 09, 2015, 06:12:03 PM »
Quote from: Boethius on February 09, 2015, 06:11:02 PM
I don't think that is his plan.

Can you assure me?
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