The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine

[fathertime]

I believe the people were much more tense than the photo shows. I don't know how Poroshenko can even negotiate with a guy who just stole a piece of his land and killing his people. Could you do it? Ukraine is losing. That's the only reason he's sitting at the table with Putin. Notice there's no silverware on the table? I got a feeling Poroshenko would love to ram a fork into Putin's throat.

Well I must say looking at the image again, Poroshenko does look a little deflated.  They all do look rather relaxed. Merkel looks engaged and Hollande looks like he is laughing at a joke of Putin's.   

[AkMike]

In general I reject the premise you can negotiate with Putin.


Putin will only negotiate AFTER he has what he wants (or most of it) or he is defeated. You are clearly clueless if you don't understand this. He will continue to push until one of these happens. No lasting deal before then.

 And even IF there is a deal made  based on the history of Russia how long will it last until they break their word.

[Boethius]

Oh, gee, you think someone with the weight of his soldiers dying daily should be joking around?

[fathertime]

Oh, gee, you think someone with the weight of his soldiers dying daily should be joking around?

I think the leaders are still human but rather detached at times...when we were in a war you would still see George Bush joking, Obama has his moments of humor also. It appears Hollande is chuckling about something, who knows what. 


Fathertime! 

[Brasscasing]

Well I must say looking at the image again, Poroshenko does look a little deflated.  They all do look rather relaxed. Merkel looks engaged and Hollande looks like he is laughing at a joke of Putin's.   

There's psy ops going on in this edit: meeting. Note the seating arrangement; Putin higher in an arm chair. Poroshenko placed on a sofa chair, no back he must lean forward lowering his sizable frame as to not tower over Putin.

Putin is not relaxed he's using his KGB training; it's called position neutral in the interrogation world. Used by both interrogators and the trained interrogated to belay body language analysis.

Merkel looks like she's about to pass out from anxiety. Arms crossed in the defensive position.

Hollande is concentrating on his paperwork. Hard to tell from that frame where he's at.

All four are pros at presenting the dignified public image so don't rely on a single frame to determine what's going on there.

Poroshenko looks haggard. He probably realizes Merkel and Hollande are serving  Ukraine up on a platter.

For Putin this little get together is simply an obligatory formality. He has no intention of honoring anything agreed to, signed or negotiated. It's just  a formality for him and part of the process. He's probably inwardly enjoying his ruse (with the unsuspecting Merkel at my side I will rule the world kinda thing).

Brass

[JayH]

For Putin this little get together is simply an obligatory formality. He has no intention of honoring anything agreed to, signed or negotiated. It's just  a formality for him and part of the process. He's probably inwardly enjoying his ruse (with the unsuspecting Merkel at my side I will rule the world kinda thing).

Brass

Exactly--only when Russia is effectively defeated will he be in any negotiation that is possible to be honored by Russia.Given the history-- I cannot see the point in writing agreements with Russia-- no notice is taken--or 20 years later they want to rewrite what was intended-whatever suits them at the time.Lying& being underhand is part of the Russian culture-if that lie did not work-tell a bigger lie.

btw--Putin's lap dogs were threatening nuclear attack in the last few days.

btw(2) Trigger on Budapest agreement is nuclear attack--or threat of nuclear attack--  then then would be no dicking around of the semantics.

[fathertime]

Merkel looks like she's about to pass out from anxiety. Arms crossed in the defensive position.

 
Brass

Interesting coments overall, but when I look at Merkel she obviously has a defensive posture but I don't see her as being overly anxious.  What are you seeing in the photo that I'm not?


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

Exactly--only when Russia is effectively defeated will he be in any negotiation that is possible to be honored by Russia.Given the history-- I cannot see the point in writing agreements with Russia-- no notice is taken--or 20 years later they want to rewrite what was intended-whatever suits them at the time.Lying& being underhand is part of the Russian culture-if that lie did not work-tell a bigger lie.

btw--Putin's lap dogs were threatening nuclear attack in the last few days.

btw(2) Trigger on Budapest agreement is nuclear attack--or threat of nuclear attack--  then then would be no dicking around of the semantics.




 

Do you see the hypocrisy of the highlighted portion of the post yet?  On one hand you are criticizing Russia for rewriting agreements, but on the other hand you are claiming it is merely a semantics issue regarding the Budapest Memorandum.  To this point the western nations have not intervened, as the Budapest Memorandum has not been triggered, despite your constant pleas that it is merely semantics...it sounds like you are trying to rewrite the agreement.
Fathertime! 

[Photo Guy]

The West has been avoiding the Budapest agreement, to avoid a huge escalation in military action and deaths in Ukraine. Russia reinterprets agreements and overlooks the Budapest Memorandum to facilitate military aggression to expand territory controlled by Russia. The barbaric Putin has implied violence at the mere thought of a free trade agreement between Ukraine and the EU. Putin does not respect the citizens of countries, only the power and military threats his paranoid imagination perceives. Note the highlighted sections. 

[BillyB]

There's psy ops going on in this edit: meeting. Note the seating arrangement; Putin higher in an arm chair. Poroshenko placed on a sofa chair, no back he must lean forward lowering his sizable frame as to not tower over Putin.

Short North Koreans used to cut off the legs of chairs so American negotiators would have to look up at them. Putin called for the meeting and it's possible he had that chair brought in just for him so everybody had to look up at him. Notice to Putin's left there is a chair matching the furniture set Putin could've sat in but he chose a higher chair.


More photos in the link below. The 4th photo is telling how the meeting ended. Nobody is smiling.


Why can't we all just get along?

[southernX]

There's psy ops going on in this edit: meeting. Note the seating arrangement; Putin higher in an arm chair. Poroshenko placed on a sofa chair, no back he must lean forward lowering his sizable frame as to not tower over Putin.

Putin is not relaxed he's using his KGB training; it's called position neutral in the interrogation world. Used by both interrogators and the trained interrogated to belay body language analysis.

Merkel looks like she's about to pass out from anxiety. Arms crossed in the defensive position.

Hollande is concentrating on his paperwork. Hard to tell from that frame where he's at.

All four are pros at presenting the dignified public image so don't rely on a single frame to determine what's going on there.

Poroshenko looks haggard. He probably realizes Merkel and Hollande are serving  Ukraine up on a platter.

For Putin this little get together is simply an obligatory formality. He has no intention of honoring anything agreed to, signed or negotiated. It's just  a formality for him and part of the process. He's probably inwardly enjoying his ruse (with the unsuspecting Merkel at my side I will rule the world kinda thing).

Brass

agree with you brass ,

SX

[calmissile]

Short North Koreans used to cut off the legs of chairs so American negotiators would have to look up at them. Putin called for the meeting and it's possible he had that chair brought in just for him so everybody had to look up at him. Notice to Putin's left there is a chair matching the furniture set Putin could've sat in but he chose a higher chair.


More photos in the link below. The 4th photo is telling how the meeting ended. Nobody is smiling.


Why can't we all just get along?

My wife likes the 5th photo.  Looks like Poroshenko is giving Putin the finger.   

[sleepycat]

Well I must say looking at the image again, Poroshenko does look a little deflated.  They all do look rather relaxed. Merkel looks engaged and Hollande looks like he is laughing at a joke of Putin's.   

Geez I don't know...
Hollande, Merkel and Poroshenko all sitting with their backs hunched over.
Meanwhile the midget is sitting with a stiff and upright back like he's got a buttplug stuck up his a**.

[lordtiberius]

Exactly--only when Russia is effectively defeated will he be in any negotiation that is possible to be honored by Russia.Given the history-- I cannot see the point in writing agreements with Russia-- no notice is taken--or 20 years later they want to rewrite what was intended-whatever suits them at the time.Lying& being underhand is part of the Russian culture-if that lie did not work-tell a bigger lie.

btw--Putin's lap dogs were threatening nuclear attack in the last few days.

btw(2) Trigger on Budapest agreement is nuclear attack--or threat of nuclear attack--  then then would be no dicking around of the semantics.

Lemme ask you this.  If seven hoodlums were kicking your ass and you saw Obama driving around in a tank with a Navy SEAL escort, do you think he would help you?

You don't know our President.  We do.  If you want to know the key, think Kardashian.

[lordtiberius]

Geez I don't know...
Hollande, Merkel and Poroshenko all sitting with their backs hunched over.
Meanwhile the midget is sitting with a stiff and upright back like he's got a buttplug stuck up his a**.

La la la la la la laaaa

[AC]

I think the leaders are still human but rather detached at times...when we were in a war you would still see George Bush joking, Obama has his moments of humor also. It appears Hollande is chuckling about something, who knows what. 

You seem to be a mean little man with no conscious and no heart.  Bush Jr. never faced an enemy on US soil with 3X the firepower and with his economy simultaneously on the verge of total collapse.

Mr. Poroshenko is a very good man and no doubt the weight of his country's future as well as so many soldiers lives is weighing very heavy on his mind right now.

You've shown yourself to be callous, flippant and uninformed about the future of a country with 45 million souls.  Try showing a little more respect in the future. 

[AkMike]

Right on!

[AC]

My wife likes the 5th photo.  Looks like Poroshenko is giving Putin the finger.   

If looks could kill Putin would be a dead man.  Look at the video at the end where Poroshenko must shake the devil's hand due to protocol.   

[calmissile]

If looks could kill Putin would be a dead man.  Look at the video at the end where Poroshenko must shake the devil's hand due to protocol.   

Putin doesn't look that healthy to me.  His face is puffy and he is very pale.  I don't recall similar photos of him recently. Perhaps he is worried about pissing his pants if his bluffs are called.     

[lordtiberius]

I hope you are right

[Gator]

I think you were trying to convey that because the Minsk Protocol failed to stop all the fighting that Russia wasn't willing to negotiate.  I don't agree. It is not realistic to stop all individuals from fighting but that doesn't automatically mean the process was 100% doomed. They simply failed to reach an agreement yet.   I don't read into the breakdown of early negotiations as a harbinger that later negotiations won't be more fruitful.

You are missing the key point.  Russia signed the Minsk Protocol peace agreement in September 2014, so why is there even a need to negotiate again a mere 5 months later?  Answer:  Putin and his DPR/LPR did not comply with the Minsk Protocol.  For example, the September 2014 memorandum specified the following:

To pull heavy weaponry 15 km back on each side of the line of contact
To ban offensive operations
To ban flights by combat aircraft over the security zone
To withdraw all foreign mercenaries from the conflict zone


So why should Putin be trusted  to comply with the February 2015 agreement, assuming there is one? 

You act as if once an agreement is negotiated both sides will be happy with their "win" and will live happily together ever after.  Your naiveté is stunning.

[BillyB]

Putin doesn't look that healthy to me.  His face is puffy and he is very pale.  I don't recall similar photos of him recently. Perhaps he is worried about pissing his pants if his bluffs are called.     

Hard to call his bluffs if we don't threat to arm Ukraine. Putin didn't go into the meeting worried. He just sold billions of dollars worth of arms to Egypt a few days ago plus the price of a nuke reactor. He's on a roll.


My wife says it's botox. I checked Google and there are various discussions about Putin and botox.


"Plastic surgeon David Hidalgo, who was interviewed by Vanity Fair, doesn't doubt the injectable fillers and Botox, but isn't sure about plastic surgery:

“I have not seen any good plastic surgery come out of Russia. A lot of girls come over here with horrendous things we have to straighten out. [Also,] Putin doesn’t strike me as the type of guy who’s gonna let somebody put him to sleep.”"


Hello RWD, My name is Putin. I'm 61 yo but trust me, I look 45

[fathertime]

You are missing the key point.  Russia signed the Minsk Protocol peace agreement in September 2014, so why is there even a need to negotiate again a mere 5 months later?  Answer:  Putin and his DPR/LPR did not comply with the Minsk Protocol.  For example, the September 2014 memorandum specified the following:

To pull heavy weaponry 15 km back on each side of the line of contact
To ban offensive operations
To ban flights by combat aircraft over the security zone
To withdraw all foreign mercenaries from the conflict zone


So why should Putin be trusted  to comply with the February 2015 agreement, assuming there is one? 

I disagree with your characterization of why the agreement failed.  It failed not solely because of Russia.  As you well know there was violations on both sides.  In addition it appears there was some disagreement regarding interpretation of language.  The agreement was temporary, and instead of it getting built upon, it fell apart. 

Nobody has to trust anybody, at least not forever.  That said, if another agreement is reached, the actions will dictate whether it lasts or not.  Hopefully both sides get to the bottom of what each want and demand...and reach a final point where they can live with the final negotiated result.  Perhaps this time it will be strong enough.  If not, then I guess the fighting resumes. 

   

You act as if once an agreement is negotiated both sides will be happy with their "win" and will live happily together ever after.  Your naiveté is stunning.

I'll take your mischaracterization of what I think, as a shortfall on your part.  It is possible that everybody will leave the table skipping and pooping candy rainbows...but it is more likely that they will leave with slumped shoulders and just satisfied enough that the fighting subsides.  If you think anything else is realistic, it is you that is naive...the time for your new and updated win-win would have been 1 year ago, but it was a bridge too far, and perhaps western interference/implied promises played a role in that. 


Fathertime!   

[mendeleyev]

Name calling from mendeleyev...but let's remember it isn't me making the decisions for the Western nations...so who is neville, Merkel, Obama?

Neville, you are the one advocating giving up Ukraine, or whatever it takes, to pacify the neighborhood bully.

It failed not solely because of Russia.  As you well know there was violations on both sides.  In addition it appears there was some disagreement regarding interpretation of language.  The agreement was temporary, and instead of it getting built upon, it fell apart. 

Dear Lord in heaven, I honestly do not believe you to be that dense. It does not take a linguist to understand what "cease fire" means. What it did do, and what any new agreement will do, is give the terrorists an opportunity to be patched up and rearmed so that they can fight again. As soon as that happened, Russia pressed on ahead.

Putin is banking on a new cease fire agreement to do two things:
- As above, give his boys a breather and allow them to be recharged.
- He hopes the West to be stupid enough to think that if a cease fire holds for a short time, then no defensive weapons will need to be delivered.
- Sanctions will be eased.

[JayH]

A mixed blessing--but any halt for the time being is something.

Minsk agreed to complete ceasefire


The agreement entered into force on 15 February. Russian President Vladimir Putin after talks in Minsk announced agreement on a cease-fire from the north on 15 February. Also agreed on withdrawal of heavy weapons
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