The Failure of Diplomacy in Ukraine

[BillyB]

Don't be naive. Point #4 will never be passed. Motivation for cease-fire is not a settelment but money from IMF. Ukrainian society is not ready yet for deep political reforms.

If that is true, then it is Putin that is naïve as it will have bought Ukraine 30 days of ceasefire.

[jone]

No, I don't want to look at our Duma. Very boring place where boring guys discuss laws. Rada is more  fascinating institution with many scuffles and theatrical performance.
So, tell me a  strong incentive to respect the wish of Ukrainian nationalists. We're neighbors and not going to isolate Ukraine. 

I would not call the credit as an aid. Soon or later Greece story will be repeated in Ukraine.

In other words, if a country self determines that that it is interested in a specific policy, and your country wants to deny that policy, then you feel the right to go to war with that country even though they have made no belligerent acts? 

Ukrainian nationalism is your definition for the idea that the Ukrainian Rada wants Russia out the lives of common Ukrainians.  You sound like the spurned lover.  So does your country, who insists on beating the s out of this country until they come crawling back to you. 

You, sir, sound more and more like a paid troll.   After all, that is the Kremlin line which is used by all of the paid trolls.

[fathertime]

Interesting.


How do you see things getting better for Ukraine?

Hola!
Well I see the latest agreement as a start and things have to start somewhere. If the sides get together now with the loss of life being relatively small ( in comparison to what it could be), and communicate, then they have a chance to make the tough decisions they will eventually have to make.  This is likely not going to turn out well for Ukraine and my belief is each time the rebels advance the eventual deal will be worse..so from that frame of reference it is best to make a deal sooner rather than later.

Fathertime!

[Doll]

No, I don't want to look at our Duma. Very boring place where boring guys discuss laws. Rada is more  fascinating institution with many scuffles and theatrical performance.
So, tell me a  strong incentive to respect the wish of Ukrainian nationalists. We're neighbors and not going to isolate Ukraine. 

I would not call the credit as an aid. Soon or later Greece story will be repeated in Ukraine.

+100

[Muzh]

Hola!
Well I see the latest agreement as a start and things have to start somewhere. If the sides get together now with the loss of life being relatively small ( in comparison to what it could be), and communicate, then they have a chance to make the tough decisions they will eventually have to make.  This is likely not going to turn out well for Ukraine and my belief is each time the rebels advance the eventual deal will be worse..so from that frame of reference it is best to make a deal sooner rather than later.

Fathertime!

The unfortunate fact is that there is going to be a LOT of lives lost, regardless when this cease-fire will take place, if ever.


They'll die now or later.


You fail to understand that Ukraine is past the point of no return and it really doesn't matter if you agree with that or not. There is a reality and it is gloomy.

[lordtiberius]

No, I don't want to look at our Duma. Very boring place where boring guys discuss laws. Rada is more  fascinating institution with many scuffles and theatrical performance.
So, tell me a  strong incentive to respect the wish of Ukrainian nationalists. We're neighbors and not going to isolate Ukraine. 

I would not call the credit as an aid. Soon or later Greece story will be repeated in Ukraine.

Do you agree with Alexander Dugin that Ukrainians are raw sewage?

[Gator]

I view the latest potential agreement as something positive.  It is once again noted that you do not. 

Not true.  The ceasefire is tenuous yet far better than the situation two days ago. 

Remember it isn't me negotiating these deals, it is the leaders of the western powers. (who you have little respect for)

Not true.  You like to put words in my mouth rather than read my actual words.

Nice job of dodging my question to you:  What was different one year ago such that a deal negotiated with Putin then would have been a "win" for Ukraine?  In other words, what kind of deal would it have been?

[fathertime]

Not true.  You like to put words in my mouth rather than read my actual words.

Nice job of dodging my question to you:  What was different one year ago such that a deal negotiated with Putin then would have been a "win" for Ukraine?  In other words, what kind of deal would it have been?

Sorry guy, due to your own earlier writings, you are on 'time-out' and have lost your privileges to get proper responses out of me unless I feel like being charitable. 


Fathertime! 

[lordtiberius]

You like to put words in my mouth rather than read my actual words.

 

[Gator]

I would not call the credit as an aid. Soon or later Greece story will be repeated in Ukraine.

Maybe.   The situation in Ukraine is indeed more dire than Greece because of the expense of defending its territory against an insurgency/invasion orchestrated by the Kremlin plus the destruction (civilian lives, infrastructure, businesses....)  resulting therefrom. 

Nevertheless, do not concern yourself so much with debt.  Do you know the US never paid down all of its debt from the Civil War of 1861-1865?   True.  If Ukraine can grow its econmy, debt can take care of itself over time.   Ukraine has much opportunity for growth provided Poroshenko can institutionalize necessary reforms rather than being preoccupied with defending his country fro separatists and aggressors. 

[Muzh]

Maybe.   The situation in Ukraine is indeed more dire than Greece because of the expense of defending its territory against an insurgency/invasion orchestrated by the Kremlin plus the destruction (civilian lives, infrastructure, businesses....)  resulting therefrom. 

Nevertheless, do not concern yourself so much with debt.  Do you know the US never paid down all of its debt from the Civil War of 1861-1865?   True.  If Ukraine can grow its econmy, debt can take care of itself over time.   Ukraine has much opportunity for growth provided Poroshenko can institutionalize necessary reforms rather than being preoccupied with defending his country fro separatists and aggressors.

There will be NO Poroshenko if he does not defend his country. PERIOD.

[Gator]

There will be NO Poroshenko if he does not defend his country. PERIOD.

Agreed.   Nor will the voters continue to support him if the economy falters.   Putin has him between a rock and a hard place.

[Gator]

Sorry guy, due to your own earlier writings, you are on 'time-out' and have lost your privileges to get proper responses out of me unless I feel like being charitable. 

Again you dodge the question.  Why not admit you were wrong in 2014 in believing Putin would have made a win-win deal with Ukraine?  Are you getting a better understanding of the man?  Or do you think this is all America's fault?

[Boethius]

Or do you think this is all America's fault?

I believe this latest attempt at a ceasefire (which doesn't take effect until Sunday, and there was fierce fighting today after the agreement was signed) is because of Obama's call to Putin.  I believe that call included not only the threat of stronger sanctions, but the possibility of the US supplying Ukraine with weapons.

Of course, we won't know, but it is rather coincidental this latest agreement came after that call.

[Gator]

I believe this latest attempt at a ceasefire (which doesn't take effect until Sunday, and there was fierce fighting today after the agreement was signed) is because of Obama's call to Putin.  I believe that call included not only the threat of stronger sanctions, but the possibility of the US supplying Ukraine with weapons.

Of course, we won't know, but it is rather coincidental this latest agreement came after that call.

Just before the meeting in Minsk, the US Army announced it will train Ukrainian military to fight against the rebels.  The training will be done in Ukraine and will start in March.   

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/11/us-ukraine-crisis-trainings-idUSKBN0LF1CG20150211

This did not get much attention even though it means we are sending 600 of our elite paratroopers into Ukraine.  Even more interesting, the Donbass volunteer battalion says it will be one of the Ukrainian units to be trained.  Can the supply of US weapons be far behind?

[lordtiberius]

Just before the meeting in Minsk, the US Army announced it will train Ukrainian military to fight against the rebels.  The training will be done in Ukraine and will start in March.   

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/11/us-ukraine-crisis-trainings-idUSKBN0LF1CG20150211

This did not get much attention even though it means we are sending 600 of our elite paratroopers into Ukraine.  Even more interesting, the Donbass volunteer battalion says it will be one of the Ukrainian units to be trained.  Can the supply of US weapons be far behind?

We need to do more.

[BillyB]

This did not get much attention even though it means we are sending 600 of our elite paratroopers into Ukraine.   

I believe American troops were in Georgia when Russia invaded. It didn't stop Putin. America has to take real action to get Putin worried. Training Ukrainians isn't going to cut it.

Can the supply of US weapons be far behind?

If we aren't shipping tanks, missile batteries, and artillery to Ukraine, the training Ukrainian soldiers will most likely receive is education on tactics, how to gather intelligence, and other ways to defend themselves against Russian heavy weapons. Going on offense is out of the question.

[fathertime]

Again you dodge the question.  Why not admit you were wrong in 2014 in believing Putin would have made a win-win deal with Ukraine?  Are you getting a better understanding of the man?  Or do you think this is all America's fault?

  Quite obviously I enjoy discussing my political viewpoints, but don't feel I can have an honest exchange of ideas with you any longer....as you get too worked up, and have emotional outbursts which sidetrack things... I'm discussing other things now.       


Fathertime!

[sleepycat]

Yes, good news for Russia. Russia will get 3 billion $ back in time and can sell more gas in Ukraine.

Yeah but 3 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to all those billions you people had already p*ssed away trying to defend the rubble ruble... 

[lordtiberius]

Yeah but 3 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to all those billions you people had already p*ssed away trying to defend the rubble ruble... 

This is very true.  A friend traveled to Russia on business.  He met one of the oligarchs.  This Chekist owned 10 restaurants had a limoscene furnished and the driver of this limoscene would travel 100 miles per hour on the shoulder and if he turned the people stuck in traffic had to yield to him because he had a special license plate.  He was paid $ 300 a month. 

The Chekist and his GLOBAL business partners have lost out a lots of business opportunities but Belvis and his kind are happy.  They have CRIMEa

I agree with this man:

[JayH]

The Kyiv Post story pretty much says it all.
The only issue that matters now if the west will help Ukraine defend itself - regardless of what happens with  this "agreement" it only has any chance of achieving anything at all is if Ukraine can enforce it themselves.
I also feel the disgust of the article-and contempt for the attempts to appease.
What sticks in my throat is the waving of more namby pamby sanctions being thrown around -- if that had already happened it may have meant something-- but now--too little to late.
I just  heard Putin refused to negotiate at first about withdrawal-- that's the point that everyone should have walked out-- and made the calls to start arming Ukraine.


West washes its hands
Quoting
"Sure, they had to spend all night with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko's palace on Feb. 11-12. That could not have been pleasant for anybody, including German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande.

But now they can walk way, consciences clear, and leave a weakened and dismembered Ukraine to fend for itself militarily against a much stronger foe that has stolen the Crimean peninsula, which was 5 percent of the land and people, and that continues to wage war against the Donbas in eastern Ukraine, once home to another 15 percent of Ukraine's 45 million people."

And More--Quoting
"Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko was pressured into peace at all costs by the fragmented European Union that he is so eager to join. He and Ukraine now face a recurring nightmare: the light-fingered neighbor next door has the key to the house and has annexed the nation's sea-facing garden.

Minsk II is tantamount to surrender for Ukraine. The country's border to Russia is to remain wide open until 2016 and its forces are to retreat further away from the September demarcation line."

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/west-washes-its-hands-380473.html

[lordtiberius]

Putin's next move is to remove or assassinate Poroshenko from power.  Poroshenko represents a United Ukraine not a regional compromise candidate.  Putin wants a Kadyrov and Dudayev to deal with.

[Gator]

  Quite obviously I enjoy discussing my political viewpoints, but don't feel I can have an honest exchange of ideas with you any longer....as you get too worked up, and have emotional outbursts which sidetrack things... I'm discussing other things now.       

I lost count.  Is this the third or fourth time you dodged answering a question about "win-win" opinions you expressed earlier?   Your  "taking the Fifth" says all we need to know.

I admit to giving you a difficult time.   It is not because your ideas are preposterous (so preposterous that no one else supports them, or haven't you even noticed).  It is because you keep repeating these preposterous ideas, even when true authorities point out the error of your logic. 

And then you have the audacity to believe you are an intelligent debater even though you have perhaps zero exposure to the politics of Ukrainian freedom from Russia.  I doubt you have ever had conversations with ordinary Ukrainians and Russians.   So you persist.  You have even twisted a couple of events to claim "I told you so."  Here's advice for you, nobody likes an "I told you so," especially when you were wrong.

Your participation is like an experienced tennis player playing with a beginner.  It is tedious when the beginner can not return the ball over the net. 

I would perhaps find you more tolerable if you would 1) simply say you know little but are trying to learn more, 2) stop repeating bad ideas, and 3) acknowledge the fine points made by true authorities such as Mendy and Boethius to help you.  I am not an authority, yet I have a keen interest in world affairs and have been wandering around the FSU and its citizens for 12 years, and prior to that I had on several occasions some firsthand exposure to Russia, to Soviet citizens and officials, and to Iron Country citizens, going as far back as the early 1970s.   

Something keeps nagging at me.  My personal experience with you suggests you are at RWD to have fun at the expense of other people's feelings.  I hope I am wrong. 

[lordtiberius]

bravo

[fathertime]

I lost count.  Is this the third or fourth time you dodged answering a question about "win-win" opinions you expressed earlier?   Your  "taking the Fifth" says all we need to know.

I admit to giving you a difficult time.   It is not because your ideas are preposterous (so preposterous that no one else supports them, or haven't you even noticed).  It is because you keep repeating these preposterous ideas, even when true authorities point out the error of your logic. 

And then you have the audacity to believe you are an intelligent debater even though you have perhaps zero exposure to the politics of Ukrainian freedom from Russia.  I doubt you have ever had conversations with ordinary Ukrainians and Russians.   So you persist.  You have even twisted a couple of events to claim "I told you so."  Here's advice for you, nobody likes an "I told you so," especially when you were wrong.

Your participation is like an experienced tennis player playing with a beginner.  It is tedious when the beginner can not return the ball over the net. 

I would perhaps find you more tolerable if you would 1) simply say you know little but are trying to learn more, 2) stop repeating bad ideas, and 3) acknowledge the fine points made by true authorities such as Mendy and Boethius to help you.  I am not an authority, yet I have a keen interest in world affairs and have been wandering around the FSU and its citizens for 12 years, and prior to that I had on several occasions some firsthand exposure to Russia, to Soviet citizens and officials, and to Iron Country citizens, going as far back as the early 1970s.   

Something keeps nagging at me.  My personal experience with you suggests you are at RWD to have fun at the expense of other people's feelings.  I hope I am wrong.

Although I might respond to your angry posts in a way that you find further unfulfilling, I remain under no obligation to discuss topics with someone I think is  going to discuss in bad faith.  You have already proven your character to me through your misleading allegations and anger. 


My viewpoint is known and goes against much of what the experts of the RWD site feel is proper, but that doesn't bother me.  The representatives from the EU and USA apparently agree with the way I'm prescribing they deal with this issue...as I feel Obama and company are doing pretty good overall. 


I continue to hold it would have been better to negotiate VERY seriously earlier, and make the tougher choices then.  Now much later the costs have risen and the payout is/will be steeper.  Yeah it was predictable that Russia would escalate as high as they have to...why you were unable to see that is beyond me.     


Fathertime!