Could Athletes take over the stick girls on the cat walk?

[Boethius]

If you're talking testing, science, whatever, sure I'll agree.  I was responding to this:
What you visually consider too thin may not be the same as someone else.

The test is not what is visually too thin.  It is based on BMI.
 
I don't think most people who look at this model
http://hollysparksphotography.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/screen-shot-2014-01-03-at-13-27-57.png

 
would say "Wow, that is a healthy, sexy, slim girl." 
 

[Anathema]

The test is not what is visually too thin.  It is based on BMI.
 
I don't think most people who look at this model
http://hollysparksphotography.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/screen-shot-2014-01-03-at-13-27-57.png

 
would say "Wow, that is a healthy, sexy, slim girl."

Agreed but that would fit into the Auschwitz category that I mentioned previously.

ETA:
Halo, you're using an extreme example and I don't think anybody would disagree but let me ask, do you think VS models fall into the category of unhealthy?

[Anathema]

The ad I mentioned (that Larry posted) is trying to say this:



Being overweight is, generally, not sexy.  What bothers me is that every single woman in that commercial could look like the VS Angels that they're making fun of.  Most overweight women could if they wanted to but that would take actual work and determination.  Nobody has time for that!  It's so much easier to just tell everyone else that they and their views on sexy are wrong. 


ETA: Fix image

[Boethius]

Most of the women in the LB ad don't look like the guy in your ad.  If you want a fairer comparison, I'd compare the photos of those LB women to most of the AM who post their photos here, though the women look better, on average, probably because they are young.
 
What that ad is really about is self acceptance.  That is not a bad thing.   Society should not be telling people that X size is acceptable, and Y size is not.  You don't want to sleep with a fat woman?  Great for you.  But who are you to decide her body type, or comment on it?  Leave that to her.  Same with men.   
 
As for your question, most runway models will not breach the laws enacted.  But there are extremes pushed by some fashion houses, because the thinner the model, the better the clothes look.  High fasion is not about selling sex, or about selling what women look like.  It's about selling product lines.

[Anathema]

Most of the women in the LB ad don't look like the guy in your ad.  If you want a fairer comparison, I'd compare to the photos of those LB women to most of the AM who post their photos here.

I'll give you that but the core message is still the same.

What it is trying to say is really about self acceptance.  That is not a bad thing.

Absolutely but the problem is they're basically making fun of the VS models for being skinny.  Self acceptance is good.  Self acceptance via shitting on those that don't look like you or share your views on beauty to make yourself feel better, is not.

Everyone (overweight people) are applauding that ad.  What would happen if VS made an ad with their models parading around and claiming "I'm no lardy"?  Imagine the outrage but it's the opposite side of the same coin.

Who looks healthier?  The models in that ad or the VS models?  Again, I'm not talking about the extremes that you and I both posted.  Should we continue to tell the already overweight girls out there that it's ok to be fat and anyone that says otherwise is "wrong"?  Wouldn't it be better to say hey, you could look like this too if you actually put down the fork, got off your ass, and ran once in a while.  Why are "plus sized" women being celebrated now and skinny women demonized?  How is that healthy?



I apologize to Bill for steering your thread somewhat off topic.  Maybe a mod can move the fatty discussion to its' own thread?

[Boethius]

No, I didn't get that they were making fun of the VS models for being skinny.  It was just about a different kind of beauty.
 
The inherent message in all VS ads is "I am no lardy".  And women internalize that. 
 
Imagine if every image a man saw was this -
 

 
with the message that this is what he should aspire to,, including the rockin' body -



 

Now imagine that type of image is what you saw on television, in most media you consumed, in every clothing store you walked into, and you were told if you don't aspire to this and don't look like this, you are somehow deficient, will never be successful in life, will never attract a woman.  That is the message women get every day.
 
 
 
 

[Anathema]

No, I didn't get that they were making fun of the VS models for being skinny.  It was just about a different kind of beauty.

From Larry's link: "It's a direct dig at Victoria's Secret"

I don't know how else you would interpret that.  They're certainly not making fun of lingerie colors or styles.
 

Imagine if every image a man saw was this -
 

 
as to what he should aspire to look wise, along with his rockin' body -
http://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvsQhMn84hx4IkVEK
 
And imagine that type of image is what you saw on television, in every magazine you read, in every clothing store you walked into, and you were told if you didn't aspire to this, you are somehow deficient.  That is the message women get everyday.

Umm, we do.  "You're no Brad Pitt/Tom Cruise/George Clooney, Channey Tatum (sp)" etc., etc., is every day talk.  Men just don't care that much and true, there's not as much social pressure to be "beautiful".  But, I don't have a six pack like Mr. Tatum in the picture I posted above.  Could I have one if I cared to workout that much and eat better?  I know I could.  Could I use that photo for inspiration to motivate me to hit the gym every day?  Of course.  Is it a lot easier to just bitch and proclaim that "I'm no Tatum" and you should change your definition of what "a rockin body" is?  Absolutely.

[Boethius]

You're still not getting it.  Western society does not tell you, as a man, that you have to be George Clooney or have a six pack to get a woman.  Western society does tell women they are worthless without (a) beauty; and (b) a man.

[Slumba]

You're still not getting it.  Western society does not tell you, as a man, that you have to be George Clooney or have a six pack to get a woman.  Western society does tell women they are worthless without (a) beauty; and (b) a man.

Eastern society also tells women the same, albeit more forthrightly:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheng_nu

[Anathema]

And now Western society is trying to say it's sexy to be overweight.

Good luck trying to be worthwhile after embracing that message. 

[Larry1]

Commenting on guys not feeling as if they need to be in good shape in order to date attractive and slender girls:

I've spent a good portion of my life depriving myself of foods that I love in order to keep myself in decent shape. There are few foods I've had in my life that I enjoy more than a Krispy Kreme glazed donut. The last one I had was in 2005. I eat dessert at most one time a year, even though I love a tart slice of key lime pie or piece of New York cheesecake. I love pizza. I would have it twice a week if I didn't want to keep from getting fat. I also love good french fries, but I have them only a few times a year and in small quantities. I could go on and on, but readers get the idea.

I have never liked working out, but I have typically done it so that I can keep myself in decent shape. It's work of the most intense kind, both intense heavy weightlifting and stairmaster.

[LiveFromUkraine]

It's work of the most intense kind, both intense heavy weightlifting and stairmaster.

Lifting heavy is tough enough, but to do so while on a stairmaster is crazy.   


I think we see unhealthy body images across genders.  Those pictures of men on fitness magazines are similar to what Bo was talking about.   They cut down to low fat percentages just to get the picture and then back to their normal weight.  It is not healthy to be carrying so little fat as you can see in some of those pictures.   


Not to mention the chemical enhancements used to get to that size which is the norm.  They are not typically natural.

[Larry1]

Lifting heavy is tough enough, but to do so while on a stairmaster is crazy.   

I didn't say that I did them simultaneously.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I didn't say that I did them simultaneously.

Slacker!

[Boethius]

And now Western society is trying to say it's sexy to be overweight.

Good luck trying to be worthwhile after embracing that message. 

No, it is saying there is not one definition of what is sexy.   Embrace who you are.

[Anathema]

That's grasping at straws.  If that's how you see the ad, great, and I hope the majority of women that see it think the same.  I highly, highly doubt that though.  Maybe LB should hire you in their marketing department. 

[Boethius]

I've been a woman for a very long time, have read magazines aimed at females since I was 12, and have been a consumer of women's products (clothing, lingerie, cosmetics, and shoes) since that age.   I know very well how ads are targeted to, and at, women.

[Boethius]

Back to the topic. 
 
No, athletes can't take over because:
 
a)  muscular bodies are not an ideal for the cat walk; and
b)  most of them don't have the beautiful faces, or versatility in look, that mostly gay male designers desire.

[2tallbill]

Israel Enacts Skinny-Model Ban Requiring Body Mass Index of 18.5

Israel have a BMI of at least 18.5, according to Yahoo! News. This number is determined based on a proportion of height-to-weight and is used by the World Health Organization. A medical report from a doctor stating that a particular model is not underweight is also permissible.

The WHO dictates that any BMI under 18.5 is considered underweight and any BMI 16 or under is considered severe thinness. Therefore, a model who is six-feet tall must weigh at
least 136.5 pounds and a model who is five-feet, eight-inches must weight at least 119 pounds.

read the article here
http://www.ibtimes.com/israel-enacts-skinny-model-ban-requiring-body-mass-index-185-necessary-step-poll-428046


Here is a BMI calculator if you want to do some calculations with both metric and
US functions


BMI indicators don't work as good estimators when your height is on the high end
of the scale. They think I should weigh 30lbs less to be at the high end of the healthy
BMI scale which is cRaZy

My BMI is 28.2   (6' 7" tall and 250 lbs) while I would look better at 240 lbs, I would
be skeletal at 220lbs.
 
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmicalc.htm

[Boethius]

Yes, but you wouldn't offend Israel's guideline until you hit 163 lbs. 

[Boethius]

That chart doesn't seem to differentiate between men and women.  Is that correct?  That can't be right.

[Anathema]

I've been a woman for a very long time, have read magazines aimed at females since I was 12, and have been a consumer of women's products (clothing, lingerie, cosmetics, and shoes) since that age.   I know very well how ads are targeted to, and at, women.

I'll take your sample size of one for what it's worth.

[2tallbill]

Now imagine that type of image is what you saw on television, in most media you consumed, in every clothing store you walked into, and you were told if you don't aspire to this and don't look like this, you are somehow deficient, will never be successful in life, will never attract a woman.  That is the message women get every day.

I think that the vast majority of straight men are far less concerned about some male
model in a magazine than women. If you ever read a woman's business magazine or
an article for women about business it's usually all over the place and almost always
has something to do with what you are wearing. If you read a business magazine NOT
geared towards women, they almost never discuss what the person is wearing.

[Boethius]

I'll take your sample size of one for what it's worth.

Go talk to 100 Western women.  You will discover that the majority have the same view. 
Go read the twitter and instagram responses to the campaign.  Or facebook (I assume there is a facebook page).
 
 
 

[Boethius]

I think that the vast majority of straight men are far less concerned about some male model in a magazine than women. If you ever read a woman's business magazine or an article for women about business it's usually all over the place and almost always has something to do with what you are wearing. If you read a business magazine NOT geared towards women, they almost never discuss what the person is wearing.

That is part of my point.  However, pay attention to ads on the side of buses, on the subway (when you leave ND), on signs, ads in your newspaper, on online media, etc.  It is internalized, and for every 1 image of a man, there are 10 of women.