Holodomor - Ukraine Famine Monument Erected In Washington

[BillyB]

Do you know the same techniques were used by brain dead ukrainian propagandists for counting of "Holodomor" victims?

Victims? What do you think they were victims of? Ukraine experienced drought around the time of Holodomor but Stalin didn't spread the food evenly among the people. How many in Russia starved? Whether you believe it's 100,000 or ten million dead Ukrainians, does it change anything about the way they died?

Moreover, the US actually apologized to the internees and their heirs.  Not once, but twice.  Each internee or their heirs was given $20,000 as compensation for their time spent in internment.

And they were reimbursed for lost property. 3600 Japanese in the camps also joined the military to fight Japan. Because of racism and war hysteria, they were put in camps but they weren't shot or thrown in ovens. When's the last time Russia/USSR compensated anybody they did wrong? When was the last time they apologized? When was the last time they acknowledged they even did wrong? It's hard for Russia to move forward and improve when it won't admit it's mistakes from the past.

Starting to get acquainted with the local education system I'm not surprised to see so many ignorant people here, I feel sorry for them.

People here are free to learn or not learn. Don't feel sorry for them. For those who do not learn, they can cook hamburgers at McDonalds. We need those people. For those who want to get educated, they can make it here better than anywhere else in the world but most people educated or not contribute in some way to the greatest economy in the world.

[whynotme]

I guess that's just your personality.

I'm not going to marry you, so relax about my personality and don't mention it in every your post. See, I don't ask why you are such Russophobe 

Thanks for link anyway. Every country has their own bright and dark sides in history, should I do selective reading? Oh, no... continue wearing pink glasses and don't ruin the picture of ideal state in the world.

[whynotme]

Victims? What do you think they were victims of? Ukraine experienced drought around the time of Holodomor but Stalin didn't spread the food evenly among the people. How many in Russia starved? Whether you believe it's 100,000 or ten million dead Ukrainians, does it change anything about the way they died?

The Soviet famine of 1932-–33 affected the major grain-producing areas of the Soviet Union, leading to the deaths of millions in those areas and severe food insecurity throughout the USSR. These areas included Ukraine, Northern Caucasus, Volga Region and Kazakhstan, the South Urals, and West Siberia. My grandparents could tell more if they would be alive, they lived at Far East. Before participating in discussion read some info first. Or better just read, not post (авось сойдешь за умного).

[BillyB]

The Soviet famine of 1932-–33  My grandparents could tell more if they would be alive, they lived at Far East.

I'd like you to tell me more. Who or what caused this food shortage?

These areas included Ukraine, Northern Caucasus, Volga Region and Kazakhstan, the South Urals, and West Siberia

That makes sense since you didn't include Moscow. Moscow alone doesn't grow nowhere near the food Ukraine does but the Ukrainians get to starve while Moscovites eat good. Look, when a nation is hurting for food, good leadership tries to spread it around evenly where people still remain hungry but they won't die. Good leadership will ask other nations for help before letting it's people resort to cannibalism.

[jone]

I'm not going to marry you, so relax about my personality and don't mention it in every your post. See, I don't ask why you are such Russophobe 

Thanks for link anyway. Every country has their own bright and dark sides in history, should I do selective reading? Oh, no... continue wearing pink glasses and don't ruin the picture of ideal state in the world.

You don't control me.  And I am not married to you.  (Thank God.)  I think you hate your adopted country.  There.  I put it in this post too.  Go ahead.  Stop me from posting it here.  We have not heard one thing nice come from you about the country you live in.

As for Russia.  I love it.  I am a Russophile.  I love most of the people from there.  I have done business in Russia for years, until this latest unpleasantness.

However, your country participated in some of the most heinous crimes imaginable, the worst of which is the killing and disdain for its own people.  You bring up the temporary internment and the incidental deaths of less than a hundred internees due to guard brutality and lack of quality medical care in the United States.  Yet you throw that against the gulags of your own country and the MILLIONS who died in those gulags and the famines and you think that there is equality? 

We talk about these things because it is good to remember lest it happen again.  That is why the monument is there.  It is for those of Ukrainian descent.  And, guess what?  The suppression and lack of tolerance which created these atrocities is rising again.  Your country is killing off its poorer neighbors to the West!

The Ukrainians remember the Holodomor.  The Russians want to forget it.  I told you that we remember the Internment Camps from WWII and how we show remorse and seek absolution for them.  Your Rodina can do no wrong in your eyes. 

Given my country's history, beginning with the Indian wars right up to the gun deaths and waterboarding, I would take it without hesitation against the backdrop of the millions who have died from the terrible government and inequality in Russia.

Just in case you think that Russia is being singled out by the US remembering the Ukrainians who died, not far from where I live in Los Angeles is a memorial to all of the Armenians who died in the genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman Government in 1915.

It is important to remember those that lost their lives to injustice so that it will not happen again.

[fathertime]

The Ukrainians remember the Holodomor.  The Russians want to forget it.  I told you that we remember the Internment Camps from WWII and how we show remorse and seek absolution for them.  Your Rodina can do no wrong in your eyes. 

Given my country's history, beginning with the Indian wars right up to the gun deaths and waterboarding, I would take it without hesitation against the backdrop of the millions who have died from the terrible government and inequality in Russia.

Just in case you think that Russia is being singled out by the US remembering the Ukrainians who died, not far from where I live in Los Angeles is a memorial to all of the Armenians who died in the genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman Government in 1915.

It is important to remember those that lost their lives to injustice so that it will not happen again.

Try your best not to take offense personally, but that sounds like a lofty load of bs to me.  The US is not directly responsible for a genocide aside from maybe the native Americans, but we have indirectly had a big affect on a lot of people dying and suffering by the hands of others.   In the grand scheme I really don't see much of a difference.  Apparently that is just the way of the world. Rise to the top, with the help of dirty pool, and somewhat covertly trampling those nations getting in your way.   


Fathertime!     

[jone]

Oh, so now you believe that it is BS that the US did not do something comparable to the Russian genocides.  You better take a course in civics.   I have the feeling that you are not a veteran.  One who has put time in the service of his country would not feel this way.   Once again you demonstrate that you are at the far end of the opinion spectrum.

Perhaps you would like to be an apologist and explain why it is NOT important to remember mass killings and deaths?

[fathertime]

Perhaps you would like to be an apologist and explain why it is NOT important to remember mass killings and deaths?

What you said was this:

It is important to remember those that lost their lives to injustice so that it will not happen again.

 
It does happen again, just by different means, but it looks a little different, not so blatant.  Certain people remembering doesn't mean much of anything. 

Oh, so now you believe that it is BS that the US did not do something comparable to the Russian genocides.  You better take a course in civics.   I have the feeling that you are not a veteran.  One who has put time in the service of his country would not feel this way.   Once again you demonstrate that you are at the far end of the opinion spectrum.

To be more precise, I thought the touchy feely post you made was the BS.  You can have all the feelings you want about my past service, or non service, but you are once again ENTIRELY mistaken about how some military veterans feel regarding our country, and how we have gone about doing things.    You are free to be in the mainstream of public opinion.  If I'm outside the mainstream, that is good with me, but there are many others there too.


Fathertime!   

[jone]

Your argument is that bad things are going to happen again so we should not try to learn from our past mistakes.  That's pretty novel.   

[fathertime]

Your argument is that bad things are going to happen again so we should not try to learn from our past mistakes.  That's pretty novel.   

No, I think your take on war monuments is overly rosy.  One thing we learn is how to get where we want, without directly committing atrocities, killing and suffering still happen and US policy is often behind them in one form or another, at least in some cases. 


Fathertime!   

[Slumba]

I thought every educated Russian knew that Russia started in the Kievan Rus' ; you know, site of the capitol city of present-day Ukraine... Moscow, Golden Ring etc. all came later.

[2tallbill]

JayH was right about you. When you occasionally make 25 posts in a row on the forum, that's too much and you should control your tongue more often. This is the internet, no need to get worked up over something you disagree with. Keep 911 on standby in case you blow a gasket. You have a new wife and baby that needs you. If my wife was back from vacation and if I had a baby in the house, I'd certainly post happy. Get yourself to a happy place.

Does making such proclamations help you feel less insecure about yourself?
When you talk about things that you know little about does changing the subject
usually help you?

Maybe you should only talk about things you have a basic knowledge about? You
should start a thread about road graders earth movers and let those of us who know
about history and economics talk about those issues. You've obviously posted above
and beyond your knowledge, education and abilities. 

[Muzh]

Whynotme, no sympathy for those that died during Holodomor? Instead you post one person's opinion on how America's Great Depression went down. Unlike what Stalin did, humans didn't cause the Great Depression on purpose, Mother Nature did. When we had years of drought, farmland dried up. When a nation's food supply dwindles, panic sets in and the economy tanks. That won't happen today. We have better farming technique, and better ways to irrigate crops.

That's the most outrageous and idiotic statement I've read in many years.


Mother Nature caused the Great Depression??


Do you know what caused the Dust Bowl?


Do you know the difference between the two?


Why are you moderated, for posting stupid shit like that?

[BdHvA]

Brass, From the "snarky" one. Thanks for startin this thread.

It is reassuring that there are village idiots on every forum.

Bd

[BillyB]

That's the most outrageous and idiotic statement I've read in many years.

You read the most outrageous and idiotic statement every week. Nobody goes into more shock than you around here. I'm glad to hold the honor this week. Where's my award?

Mother Nature caused the Great Depression??

Since you're afraid to offer your opinion, I assume you think it was the stock market crash. The stock market didn't crash for 10 continuous years did it? America has recovered from many stock market crashes and bad decisions from presidents and banks. You mess with the food supply, that is the fastest way to get people to stop functioning in life or in war. I guess idiotic people like me, generals, and madmen understand this best.

Do you know what caused the Dust Bowl?

Because you don't offer your opinion on this, I'm guessing you're going to blame the farmers for bad farming techniques, not Mother Nature. The farmers did have bad farming techniques but they successfully farmed the land for years. Mother Nature hit them hard with an unusually harsh drought and wind ruining millions of acres and killing millions of livestock. Today, we have crop rotations, better irrigation, and understand how to protect the topsoil better. Laws have changed to protect farmers and they have some of the strongest rights to water sources in this country. America will have recessions but the food source is better protected to keep us from going in a severe depression.

Why are you moderated, for posting stupid shit like that?

No, because I have a bad habit of telling people their family is more important than this forum. I'm not supposed to make those "assumptions". Can I join you in the safer practice of insulting people instead?

[Boethius]

The Soviet famine of 1932-–33 affected the major grain-producing areas of the Soviet Union, leading to the deaths of millions in those areas and severe food insecurity throughout the USSR. These areas included Ukraine, Northern Caucasus, Volga Region and Kazakhstan, the South Urals, and West Siberia. My grandparents could tell more if they would be alive, they lived at Far East. Before participating in discussion read some info first. Or better just read, not post (авось сойдешь за умного).

Except there was no grain shortage in Ukraine in 1932-33.  Perhaps you should read some information first.

[Boethius]

http://mikle1.livejournal.com/674402.html

It's about Holodomor in USA in the same period. Google'll help to translate.
Should Russians erect Monument in Moscow too?

LOL.  Is this an example of the "superior Soviet education"?

Your correspondent attempts to dismiss immigration, but had he actually reviewed immigration statistics in the period at issue (I did), he would note they plummeted, due to the Depression.  The USSR at that time, of course, had no immigration, so there is no comparison on that front.

So many legitimate targets on which to criticize the US, such as the Trail of Tears, or Gulf II, and this is what was chosen.  A sad commentary on "intellectual" (and I use that term in its absolute loosest sense) debate.


Oh, and BTW, the reason there is a monument in Washington is because victims of the Holodomor, their descendants, and a greater diaspora community sympathetic to the history organized and fundraised for it.  I know, I know.  A novel concept.

[whynotme]

Except there was no grain shortage in Ukraine in 1932-33.  Perhaps you should read some information first.

There was no grain shortage in other areas also. It was just failed government policies rather than genocide as ukrainian side wants to present it nowadays.
As for my education, it is better to have such that the one based on the only source (my better half says  ).
I guess the discussion can be complete here because I have neither the time nor the inclination to argue with Russophobs.

[Boethius]

It wasn't "failed" government policies.  The intention was to starve the population to death.  From the outset.  That is from numerous sources.  So much for your education.

I am on the fence on whether or not the Holodomor was a genocide.  But it definitely was intentional.

As for Russophobes:

a)  the Holodomor was not designed by Russians.  It was designed and implemented by Bolsheviks; and

b)   I sleep with a Russian.  Unlike you, he has Russian blood (he is currently in Moscow visiting the graves of his ancestors), so he doesn't have to compensate with a complete lack of critical thinking on all things "Russian".

[BillyB]

It was just failed government policies rather than genocide as ukrainian side wants to present it nowadays.

The man who coined the word "Genocide" told the UN Holodomor is a classic example of genocide. He should know what the definition of that word means.


I've never read a Ukrainian history book but when I dated Ukrainian ladies and asked them about Holodomor, the answers are all similar and their stories were past down from previous generations coming from the people who live during those times. Government officials knock on people's doors and tell them to move out by next day. They become homeless instantly. It was against the law to possess food. There are many more stories. Government outlawing food isn't policy, it's genocide.

[ML]

During that period, Ochka's grandparents lived at edge of town on small property.  Officials came every week and took all of their eggs, milk, any garden produce they could find, etc.  The family often ate onions dipped in honey as their only food.  They were lucky to have bees and kept the hives on far corner of property where they were never discovered.

During some of the confiscations by officials, they said to grandparents . . . why aren't you dead yet?

Yes, there was a lot of grain being produced in Ukraine.  It was all shipped to Russia.

There was a deliberate design to kill off the Ukrainian people, especially the Kulaks who were successful farmers.  It was believed that any future insurrection against communism would be led by the Kulaks, thus he proclaimed a policy aimed at "liquidating the Kulaks as a class."

There was set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there who might seek independence from communist rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands and the food being shipped to Russia.

Communist leaders had little fear that ethnic Russians would rebel against communism because there was a history of serfdom in Russia and the people were comfortable with dictators (and they still are), etc.; whereas there was little or no serfdom in Ukraine, especially in western Ukraine.

[Boethius]

Communist leaders had little fear that ethnic Russians would rebel against communism because there was a history of serfdom in Russia and the people were comfortable with dictators (and they still are), etc.; whereas there was little or no serfdom in Ukraine, especially in western Ukraine.

I think it is because of the way Russia was farmed, evident if you read the Stolypin reforms.  Russians farmed their lands communally, while in Ukraine, lands were not farmed communally after the abolition of serfdom.


There were serfs in Left Bank Ukraine, it was in fact quite common.  Taras Shevchenko, for example, was a serf whose freedom was purchased by Russian artists.


In Right Bank Ukraine (what is now Western Ukraine), there was a form of serfdom under the Polish aristocrats, or "pans".  Their treatment of the peasants was horrific.  Even in the twentieth century, those aristocrats owned huge tracts of land, and everything from picking wood to berries had a fee. 

[ML]

Hey . . . don't mess up my stories !!