Is it usual for Ukrainian Women to be inaffectionate when starting relationship?

[Faux Pas]

Trenchcoat did have a talk that with her during his first visit and her answer was she needed more time. Another question like that will give her the impression he has comprehension problems. Some of us recommended Trenchcoat to say goodbye after the first visit but he made the decision to visit her a second time. She will get the time she asks for so we'll learn if she opens up to him on her own free will without the pressure of knowing she'll upset Trenchcoat if she doesn't perform. If she won't kiss Trenchcoat on the second visit, he should figure she will always be cold to his romantic overtures.

So? We haven't necessarily given any conflicting advice. Even if we did,it doesn't change my advice. He's going back a second time, obviously he wants to give it another go. It makes me no difference if he dumps her or not, that's his choice but, he said he's going back. He wants intimacy I recommend he have "another" heart to heart and explain what he expects. He can then decide if it's worth hanging on to and for her there will be no misunderstanding

[Anotherkiwi]

There is another possibility, which nobody seems to have considered, and that is that she was the victim of sexual abuse earlier in her life.  That would be enough to put many women off any sort of intimacy with a man, let alone sex, for years (possibly even for life).

However, this is just speculation.  As has been advised by several other posters above, you have to talk seriously with her and find out EXACTLY what the problem is.  If it's simply that she really isn't into you after all, the answer's just as easy - thank her for her time, wish her well for her future, and start looking for someone else.  If it's anything else, you then have to weigh up all the possible factors affecting your future relationship and decide whether or not it's worth continuing, especially if she's only going to thaw out at the speed of a glacier.

[BillyB]

There is another possibility, which nobody seems to have considered, and that is that she was the victim of sexual abuse earlier in her life.  That would be enough to put many women off any sort of intimacy with a man, let alone sex, for years (possibly even for life).

That's possible and that would be bad for Trenchcoat if she's psychologically damaged since any hangups about intimacy may last a lifetime.

you have to talk seriously with her and find out EXACTLY what the problem is.

Regardless of what the problem is, if a guy communicates through letters, phone calls, and Skype for months, he should have a good idea that he will get a kiss from the woman or not on the first visit. He should get a good read on the girl.  If a guy did all that plus visit her once and then promise a second visit, he definitely should get a kiss and more. Trenchcoat has done enough to earn a kiss. She is a nice girl but she hasn't shown enough excitement to give Trenchcoat the impression kissing is definitely going to happen during his second visit.


Like you said, she may have something traumatic happen to her but why ask why? Trenchcoat won't understand if he gets the truth or another excuse to have him come back a third time. It doesn't bother me if a girl doesn't kiss me after knowing each other for awhile. I'm not interested in their reasons or excuses because in the end, I won't be living with them.

[ML]

  Let us assume she dies like you . . .

OMG . . . let's hope it doesn't come to that !!

[ML]

Regardless of what the problem is, if a guy communicates through letters, phone calls, and Skype for months, he should have a good idea that he will get a kiss from the woman or not on the first visit. He should get a good read on the girl. 

Exactly right.  I did several WMVM trips.  I only communicated by email maximum of 8 times starting about 6 weeks before my arrival.

On each trip, based on our email exchanges only (I didn't do phone or Skype), I knew of at least 3-4 women (out of 15-20) who were going to have sex with me soon after (or during) our first meeting.

These gals were all in the age range of 35-50.  It might not work the same with younger gals.

[BillyB]

I knew of at least 3-4 women (out of 15-20) who were going to have sex with me soon after (or during) our first meeting.

Did you get a kiss? Without a kiss, all you got was sex.

[dragonkid]

There is another possibility, which nobody seems to have considered, and that is that she was the victim of sexual abuse earlier in her life.  That would be enough to put many women off any sort of intimacy with a man, let alone sex, for years (possibly even for life).

However, this is just speculation.  As has been advised by several other posters above, you have to talk seriously with her and find out EXACTLY what the problem is.  If it's simply that she really isn't into you after all, the answer's just as easy - thank her for her time, wish her well for her future, and start looking for someone else.  If it's anything else, you then have to weigh up all the possible factors affecting your future relationship and decide whether or not it's worth continuing, especially if she's only going to thaw out at the speed of a glacier.

Or she could have another guy and waiting for him to come and meet up with her. Very common with FSU women. I didn't want to mention this initially as it will put doubts, but sexual abuse is a far stretch, but it does happen.

[Trenchcoat]

Or she could have another guy and waiting for him to come and meet up with her. Very common with FSU women. I didn't want to mention this initially as it will put doubts, but sexual abuse is a far stretch, but it does happen.

Yeah I know it can happen, we did agree to go exclusive on the profile and she seems to have done as did I, however of course on the time being there (or elsewhere) she could have several contacts over time. However, her frequency of emailing me etc and her personality suggest to me she's not the type. Normally over time I find its difficult to keep up more than one correspondence, perhaps two-three at most consistently over a long period of time. Hence why the less favourite tend to filter themselves out over time on dating sites I think. She could already have a bf though I would find it strange, she doesn't seem to have a VK profile. She comes across as being very straight up and genuine so although these scenarios exist, I don't think they do here, I could be wrong but she strikes me as the type of girl to say what she means.

Sexual abuse, I'm not sure, shes very attractive but I'm thinking she is perhaps more the reluctant type on the affection/intimacy side. I know she has had at least one other guys years ago, but perhaps it never really got far there either. As you know and has been demonstrated here, if a guy is getting lack of affection from a girl he'll eventually get fed up and go elsewhere in search of it, they take it as a sign she is not into him. I have known girls who around mid teens seem to expect a guy to wait on forever, that if he asks for it or demonstrates highly suggestive behaviour towards trying to get it they look down upon it. I'm hoping she is not quite that type at her age, though I get the impression her view of relationship struggles beyond the everyday conversation stage (which she is a good conversationalist which is nice thing to have). Anyway, I am probing further at the moment so will see what comes up as hopefully some more idea as to an answer from her on all of this or a willingness to move the relationship on.

[dragonkid]

Yeah I know it can happen, we did agree to go exclusive on the profile and she seems to have done as did I, however of course on the time being there (or elsewhere) she could have several contacts over time. However, her frequency of emailing me etc and her personality suggest to me she's not the type. Normally over time I find its difficult to keep up more than one correspondence, perhaps two-three at most consistently over a long period of time. Hence why the less favourite tend to filter themselves out over time on dating sites I think. She could already have a bf though I would find it strange, she doesn't seem to have a VK profile. She comes across as being very straight up and genuine so although these scenarios exist, I don't think they do here, I could be wrong but she strikes me as the type of girl to say what she means.

Sexual abuse, I'm not sure, shes very attractive but I'm thinking she is perhaps more the reluctant type on the affection/intimacy side. I know she has had at least one other guys years ago, but perhaps it never really got far there either. As you know and has been demonstrated here, if a guy is getting lack of affection from a girl he'll eventually get fed up and go elsewhere in search of it, they take it as a sign she is not into him. I have known girls who around mid teens seem to expect a guy to wait on forever, that if he asks for it or demonstrates highly suggestive behaviour towards trying to get it they look down upon it. I'm hoping she is not quite that type at her age, though I get the impression her view of relationship struggles beyond the everyday conversation stage (which she is a good conversationalist which is nice thing to have). Anyway, I am probing further at the moment so will see what comes up as hopefully some more idea as to an answer from her on all of this or a willingness to move the relationship on.

I spoke to one girl who said she had a guy make 4 trips to see her over a span of 6 months. Never slept with each other, i asked if she was a virgin, she said no, just that if a man really loves a woman he would do anything to be with her. They broke up because he was very stressed at the fact that she wouldn't have sex with him, i think he even tried to apologise and get back with her. The girl was around 27 to 28 i believe, and guy was in his mid 30's. I am guessing he must be an average bloke, nothing wrong with him, he wasn't exactly 60 years old. If you talk to her, she is maybe going to bring up love, and that you need to be patient, you will need to seduce her or just leave it. otherwise you will be the guy who i just mentioned, waiting for a girl that has a sexual past.

By the sounds of it, i doubt she has another man, but just stay aware that it does happen a lot. Just to add, my ex shared the same opinion, she said if we broke up, she would tell her dad to find her a husband. And wouldn't have sex till after marriage, and gave me the same reasoning as the girl above.

[Faux Pas]

I spoke to one girl who said she had a guy make 4 trips to see her over a span of 6 months. Never slept with each other, i asked if she was a virgin, she said no, just that if a man really loves a woman he would do anything to be with her. They broke up because he was very stressed at the fact that she wouldn't have sex with him, i think he even tried to apologise and get back with her. The girl was around 27 to 28 i believe, and guy was in his mid 30's. I am guessing he must be an average bloke, nothing wrong with him, he wasn't exactly 60 years old. If you talk to her, she is maybe going to bring up love, and that you need to be patient, you will need to seduce her or just leave it. otherwise you will be the guy who i just mentioned, waiting for a girl that has a sexual past.

By the sounds of it, i doubt she has another man, but just stay aware that it does happen a lot. Just to add, my ex shared the same opinion, she said if we broke up, she would tell her dad to find her a husband. And wouldn't have sex till after marriage, and gave me the same reasoning as the girl above.

Is having a sexual past suppose to be a bad thing?

[Trenchcoat]

I spoke to one girl who said she had a guy make 4 trips to see her over a span of 6 months. Never slept with each other, i asked if she was a virgin, she said no, just that if a man really loves a woman he would do anything to be with her. They broke up because he was very stressed at the fact that she wouldn't have sex with him, i think he even tried to apologise and get back with her. The girl was around 27 to 28 i believe, and guy was in his mid 30's. I am guessing he must be an average bloke, nothing wrong with him, he wasn't exactly 60 years old. If you talk to her, she is maybe going to bring up love, and that you need to be patient, you will need to seduce her or just leave it. otherwise you will be the guy who i just mentioned, waiting for a girl that has a sexual past.

By the sounds of it, i doubt she has another man, but just stay aware that it does happen a lot. Just to add, my ex shared the same opinion, she said if we broke up, she would tell her dad to find her a husband. And wouldn't have sex till after marriage, and gave me the same reasoning as the girl above.

Perhaps its the same girl, lol. Yeah I think that is the danger, I want to really get it out of her now and know where I stand. Doing that to a guy - four trips without sex is not on, its just mean. I mean its like telling the guy she wants to see him but isn't really into him - like what does he think he is going there for    I can take a bit of a girl not wanting to get it on at first if she is a bit more reserved but doing that to a guy is not really the way to treat him, she should have told him. Four trips in 6 months is a lot and no doubt the guy didn't appreciate being messed around like that.

So yeah that is why I want to find out now and adjust accordingly, its like I really like her and we get on well, I think at least anyway but if progression didn't happen on trip 2 it would really get annoying, trip 3 & 4 would just be making the same mistake again so would be pointless. Anyway, probing further at the moment and we'll see how it goes but I'm not going on another trip soon unless I see some sort of easing on the affectionate front.

[2tallbill]

Trenchcoat, I am going to give you some advice. Don't get offended, I don't know
your situation and, I am also writing this for the newbies and lurkers out there who
might have similar questions as you do.

she doesn't seem to have a VK profile.

Ask her where her VK profile is.

I have known girls who around mid teens seem to expect a guy to wait on forever, that if he asks for it or demonstrates highly suggestive behaviour towards trying to get it they look down upon it

There is a reason that we go to the FSU. They aren't feminists. You aren't dating a
teenager and the last thing you would probably want is a cold fish. An FSUW would
get dumped by all the local men if she pulled something like that.

I'm hoping

My advice is to stop beating around the bush with this girl. You aren't being
direct. I highly recommend that you stop treating her like a Western feminist.

Here is a sample conversation for Skype. I don't know your girls name so I will call
her Betty.

"Hello Betty blah, blah, how is your day etc."
"I am going to buy a ticket to see you but first I want to talk about sex."

NOTE" Betty is an FSUW and probably wasn't brought up to view sex as some kind of
forbidden topic to talk about.

"So Betty, how often do you think a man and a wife should have sex per week?"
"Oh, that's great, I was worried that you would say twice a year or 4 times per day.
and I don't know which would be worse" haha, yuck, yuck.

"Betty when are your red days? I wanted to make sure my trip didn't happen during
your red days."

NOTE: You are establishing the fact that you expect sex
NOTE: Ask a few other questions about her landscaping and what she prefers in
manscaping.

"What color are your sexiest panties?"
"I want you to wear them to the airport."

NOTE: She will almost certainly ask you what color you want her to wear.

Rework the conversation to fit your personality but have the conversation. Ask her
about her fantasies, stuff she likes and doesn't like. Don't talk about sex EVERY
time you call but you need to realize that FSUW have far less sexual hangups than
the average Western woman. They believe it is good for their health. They want
you to seduce them.

She is probably wondering why you didn't try to jump her bones on the first trip.
She is probably wondering if you have the hots for her or if you didn't like her
perfume or that maybe you have a medical condition.

Have conversations, ask her everything you want to know and don't beat around
the bush and don't be vague.

Udachi!

Bill

[Gator]

2tallbill,   Funny stuff.  You forgot to mention disrobing while on Skype.   

[2tallbill]

2tallbill,   Funny stuff.  You forgot to mention disrobing while on Skype.

If she's not sure which panties are the sexiest, obviously she can model them and
he can help her decide 

He needs to change the dynamic and get her thinking about being seduced. That's
my two kopecks on the subject. 

[dragonkid]

Trenchcoat, I am going to give you some advice. Don't get offended, I don't know
your situation and, I am also writing this for the newbies and lurkers out there who
might have similar questions as you do.


Ask her where her VK profile is.

There is a reason that we go to the FSU. They aren't feminists. You aren't dating a
teenager and the last thing you would probably want is a cold fish. An FSUW would
get dumped by all the local men if she pulled something like that.


My advice is to stop beating around the bush with this girl. You aren't being
direct. I highly recommend that you stop treating her like a Western feminist.

Here is a sample conversation for Skype. I don't know your girls name so I will call
her Betty.

"Hello Betty blah, blah, how is your day etc."
"I am going to buy a ticket to see you but first I want to talk about sex."

NOTE" Betty is an FSUW and probably wasn't brought up to view sex as some kind of
forbidden topic to talk about.

"So Betty, how often do you think a man and a wife should have sex per week?"
"Oh, that's great, I was worried that you would say twice a year or 4 times per day.
and I don't know which would be worse" haha, yuck, yuck.

"Betty when are your red days? I wanted to make sure my trip didn't happen during
your red days."

NOTE: You are establishing the fact that you expect sex
NOTE: Ask a few other questions about her landscaping and what she prefers in
manscaping.

"What color are your sexiest panties?"
"I want you to wear them to the airport."

NOTE: She will almost certainly ask you what color you want her to wear.

Rework the conversation to fit your personality but have the conversation. Ask her
about her fantasies, stuff she likes and doesn't like. Don't talk about sex EVERY
time you call but you need to realize that FSUW have far less sexual hangups than
the average Western woman. They believe it is good for their health. They want
you to seduce them.

She is probably wondering why you didn't try to jump her bones on the first trip.
She is probably wondering if you have the hots for her or if you didn't like her
perfume or that maybe you have a medical condition.

Have conversations, ask her everything you want to know and don't beat around
the bush and don't be vague.

Udachi!

Bill

Trench whatever you do, don't do this lol. Most cringe thing i ever heard, just meet her, and touch her slowly, try and get into putting you arm around her, hugging her, playing with her hair, slowly touching her. Take your time, no rush, i never tried kissing a girl from the get go i think. I always slowly built up to things, she needs to feel loved, and your touch can do this, appreciate her smell, talk to her about her aura, show that you value the small things about her, and how she makes you feel (do this in person). Tell her about your future plans with her, what you would like to happen. Suprise her now with some flowers sent to her place.

Asking a girl when her red days are, and what colour her favourite panties are is a bit too much. Even for me, most i would say would be for example, bring a set of handcuffs to the airports, you will need to cuff me otherwise my hands will be all over you. Just some jokes, that you are in love with her hips, stuff like that. But i wouldn't suggest it with your girl, i don't think you two are on that stage.

[2tallbill]

Trench whatever you do, don't do this lol. Most cringe thing i ever heard

Trench has already met the girl and came home with blue balls. Personally, I wouldn't
go see the girl again. However since he is determined to do so, I would recommend
that he makes sure that she knows that that things are going to be radically different
this time.

Your approach is fine for the first trip, but he shouldn't even make a second trip to see
this girl unless he expects completely different results.

Asking a girl when her red days are, and what colour her favourite panties are is a bit too much. Even for me, most i would say would be for example, bring a set of handcuffs to the airports, you will need to cuff me otherwise my hands will be all over you. Just some jokes, that you are in love with her hips, stuff like that. But i wouldn't suggest it with your girl, i don't think you two are on that stage.

Everyone has their own style. My confident humor works for me. Your flowery bs works
for you. You probably don't chase a girl around her apartment with her panties on your
head biting her popka very often. It's a lot of fun sometimes, as is the slow tender
seduction. Trench has to say and do things his way or it will sound phony or come off
as awkward.

In my opinion Trench is barking up the wrong tree. He met her once and she wasn't
affectionate. My first advice would be to find a girl who is. However, since he is
determined to meet this girl again, he needs to make sure he has different results.
He needs to have a real in depth conversation with this girl about expectations before
ever getting on a plane to see her again.

[ML]

When a gal is coming from another city to visit with me; I tell them they can bring a dog for protection if they want.

Those who are fairly interested in quick sex often reply something like  . . . OK, if you think you need a dog to protect yourself from me.

Other times I have told the gal that there will be two beds.  Some reply . . .  good, that will be a place for me to empty my suitcase and lay out all my stuff.

[msmobyone]

Seasoned guys- thanks -some light humour mixed with common sense advice

DK

I wonder if you can BE British.... as 'black humour' - ''chernyy yumor'' as it is can be called in the FSU - seems to pass RIGHT over your head.

Suggest sitting down and watching a boxed set of the Office .. the original UK version 

[Trenchcoat]

Update: Ok, got around to asking her about the holiday, what she thought on me, she said that she thought I was kind and a gentleman, though I did not lead on the trip which she is not used to. She thought seeing each other for the first time and getting used to each other became a thing but we did by the end. I think we both agreed that being a foreigner probably hampered the leading issue as I was not familiar with Kiev. So yes, on that front I got a fair amount out of the question.

I get the impression from further questioning about sunbathing that she is a good girl, I don't think much is to be gained by being overly suggestive than perhaps give her a bad opinion of me. I don't think anything would be accomplished by doing this, however, I'm still going to have to ease her up a bit if I can, its not that shes uptight but I think she's grown up/ brought being quite reserved on intimacy, as to some extent as I. I get the impression she is straight up about moving to a relationship but I think its probably really is a case of seeing more of each other and how most progress is likely to be made with her. She is a lovely girl and we seem to get on perfectly day to day I think so I am willing to follow up visit once more. I'm still toying though with the idea to tacking some days onto the end as although I think she'll come along there are no guarantees so if I feel I am chasing a dead end by the end of a second time with her I think  I may prefer to have some other options available there and then. That said I feel she is a lot better than a lot of other girls out there both attractiveness and personality and we seem to get on plus she seems genuine and reliable so I don't want to pass over on her. On the other hand I don't want to feel I'm in limbo land - not really in a relationship and not really not if you know what I mean. Will have to see what further communication brings I think.

[jone]

TC,

Did you tell her what a great mistake she made?

(Thinking you a gentleman?)

[GuppyCaptain]

Great news that you got her to open up to you about this subject, Trench. So now you know to lead when you see her again. Being that you think highly of her and apparently the other way around too, I'm happy to hear that you're going to give her another chance. Now let's see if you being a stronger leader will open up her level of affection as well. I've got my fingers crossed for you.

[jone]

Ya tozhe.

[Trenchcoat]

Great news that you got her to open up to you about this subject, Trench. So now you know to lead when you see her again. Being that you think highly of her and apparently the other way around too, I'm happy to hear that you're going to give her another chance. Now let's see if you being a stronger leader will open up her level of affection as well. I've got my fingers crossed for you.

Thanks GC most appreciate it. Yeah leading will definitely be my priority next time 

[GuppyCaptain]

Thanks GC most appreciate it. Yeah leading will definitely be my priority next time 

I understand about feeling out of your element though. A good example is walking into a restaurant where even the host/hostess doesn't speak much English. Nevertheless, I still make the effort to "be the man" and ask for a table for two, etc. in my limited Russian.

It'd be easier in many cases if she did it, but I'd like to think that my efforts are appreciated by her.

[Trenchcoat]

I understand about feeling out of your element though. A good example is walking into a restaurant where even the host/hostess doesn't speak much English. Nevertheless, I still make the effort to "be the man" and ask for a table for two, etc. in my limited Russian.

It'd be easier in many cases if she did it, but I'd like to think that my efforts are appreciated by her.

That's exactly it, I think I'll just have to press on and talk to them in English, most understand it and if not at least I've attempted to lead, better than no attempt at all, lol. I've got plenty of learn Russian programs so just need to find the time to get on top of these. A few words I can speak but when visiting a country for the first time I tend to take a slow and gentle approach in choosing when to use it as it takes time to acclimatize/feel right using it.