An interesting book about democracy, freedom, tyranny and terror

[Elen]

What are the new elections in Iraq

 And why only I thought bombing electorate before an eclection was far from democracy:? How silly of me, indeed:?:X

what about Germany? France? Spain? Do you really think we would threaten these countries?

 Threaten or not but you certainly didn't want to take into consideration their opinion when you did such things as inviting allient country. Very democratic:D

 

Ok boys I'm too tired to fight back all of you today.

Вас много , а я одна (the favourite phrase in russian shops:D)

[Photo Guy]

Elen, I'm tired of talking politics too.
Do you have any single women friends?  
How is your day going? Today is my mom's birthday.
I will go over my sister Lyn's house and have dinner with
mom, dad, Joan, Tom, and my nephews. For dinner we will
have borscht   ...no, actually lasagna.
I'll tell them all about you and the people here at RWD!
Have an excellent day!   -doug L.

[ConnerVT]

Doug --- Wish your mom Happy Birthday from me and my family.  Our extended family has a number of b'days in March.  Must have something to do with summer holidays...

[Coulter]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Elen,
When my stupid American politicians supported those
stupid dictators, it may have had a bad effect on the world, true.
But there's a BIG difference in that my stupid leaders here
never had total control of the lives of common citizens here.

Does it mean that you care only about yourselves? Great! I see what kind of ethics you have.

[Coulter]

It is really amazing to see how some people are full of propaganda about "freedom" and "democracy".

Freedom of what? To kill people? To plunder the planet? To install or support dictators all over the world to meet their wishes (Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Philippines, etc.)? To organize several "coup d'Etat" (Chile, Iran, Panama, USA, Vietnam, etc.)? To consume twice more energy than an European? Freedom to be controlled by Big Brother? USA über alles? Before teaching some basic things it would be better to look what is in one's own backyard.

More about "your" freedom: are you free to invite a friend from Russia in your country? Are you free to marry a woman in Russia and to come back with her in your country?

There is one big difference between Russia and USA. Russians in Siberia did not destroy the people living there, those people could maintain their place, culture, traditions and language, they were not hunted down and put like animals in "reserves". This is telling a lot about mentalities. And about who is really free.

And obviously the word "plutocray" doesn't belong to US vocabulary...

At the end, I really don't understand people thinking like this about Russia (they themselves aren't even trying to understand this country - they are only full of "we are/have the best ever"), and wanting to find a bride there. They simply don't have respect for what is different from them. And that is the worst. If the woman has some personality she will despise them.

And last question, if the system is so wonderful, why to try to find a woman abroad? Said otherwise, the fact that so many men are looking for a bride abroad is showing one of the failures of the system.

[Bruno]

Coulter, i agree fully with you but... be ready for the return of the fire... i have try so before and it is a dangerous excercice...

[Photo Guy]

Elen,
When my stupid American politicians supported those
stupid dictators, it may have had a bad effect on the world, true.
But there's a BIG difference in that my stupid leaders here
never had total control of the lives of common citizens here.

Does it mean that you care only about yourselves? Great! I see what kind of ethics you have.[/quote]
I don't understand your logic. What are my ethics? If I see
the leaders of my country doing something I disagree with,
I vote them out of office. In a dictatorship, the people do not have
that option, that freedom. That was my point. The point is,
democracy gives the people greater control of their government.
How is that unethical?  The liberation of countries like
Lebanon, Iraq, and Afghanistan, will hopefully result in
their citizens being able to have greater control of their own
government. I believe that is true and will happen. I think
liberation is ethical. I think democracy is more ethical than
dictatorship. Don't you?

[Photo Guy]

Coulter, i agree fully with you but... be ready for the return of the fire... i have try so before and it is a dangerous excercice...

Bruno, aren't you allowed to disagree in Belgium?
A difference of opinion is not dangerous here in the US, in fact
it is expected.  -doug

[Photo Guy]

It is really amazing to see how some people are full of propaganda about "freedom" and "democracy".

You raise questions about a dozen different issues. Most of those
issues have nothing to do with freedom or democracy.
I have never stated that a free and democratic society is pure and
clean. I never stated that the US government has not made (big)
mistakes. It isn't black and white, pure good and pure bad.

I can give you a long list of US policies and actions that I
disagree with. One of my biggest complaints is about US support
of dictators, like the Shah of Iran, and Saddam. I believe the US
foreign policy is going through a major change which is based much
more on human rights (through democracy) of the citizens of the world.

A fact I will repeat:
Never in the history of the world, has one democracy gone to war
against another democratic country.

So what is your argument against democracy and freedom?

By the way, when the US placed Indians on reservations,
that was not a function of freedom or democracy. In fact it
went against those principles. You give a good example of
a situation where freedom and democracy were not implemented.
So what is the problem with freedom and democracy?
If you see a situation in my country, the US, then feel free to
point it out.

I can give MANY examples of how freedom and democracy
could have been beneficial in the former Soviet Union, had it been
allowed, but why bother? Isn't it obvious? Ask Belgium if it would
like to give up its freedom and democracy.

I'm for greater control of government, elsewhere, and also here
in the US. Democracy is the best way to do it? Do you disagree
with that?   -doug

[Photo Guy]

There is one big difference between Russia and USA. Russians in Siberia did not destroy the people living there, those people could maintain their place, culture, traditions and language, they were not hunted down and put like animals in "reserves". This is telling a lot about mentalities. And about who is really free.

What? You're referring to the 19th century, not the 21st.
Are you going to say that women can't vote here next?

[Photo Guy]

It is really amazing to see how some people are full of propaganda about "freedom" and "democracy".

Freedom of what? To kill people? To plunder the planet? To install or support dictators all over the world to meet their wishes (Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Philippines, etc.)? To organize several "coup d'Etat" (Chile, Iran, Panama, USA, Vietnam, etc.)? To consume twice more energy than an European? Freedom to be controlled by Big Brother? USA über alles? Before teaching some basic things it would be better to look what is in one's own backyard.

I already looked. There's some bad stuff there. That doesn't stop
me or someone else from talking about good stuff. You can give me
advice. Feel free to do that. I'll do that for you too. It's good.
Sharing ideas. When I or Sharansky says democracy is a good
thing for societies of the world, you can feel free to disagree, but
it makes no sense at all to attack the character of a government
or person. Attack the idea. If you think democracy and freedom
are bad ideas, tell me why those ideas are bad.

For example, if a burglar tells me that I should not lie to my
mother, it is foolish to turn around and say, 'Do not tell me that
lying to my mother is a BAD thing, because YOU are burglar.'

In fact lying to your mother is probably a BAD thing, no matter
who tells us, a burglar or a priest or whoever.

Let me try this:
A corrupt democratic government can ruin the enviroment.
A corrupt dictatorship can ruin the environment.

From this you may not conclude that democracy will necessarily
ruin the environment. You also may not conclude that a dictatorship
will ruin the environment, based on those two statements.
If those two statement are true, it may be that 'corruption' is
the key component. You can also replace 'corrupt' with 'greed'
if you'd like.

Those horrible things that you mentioned are not necessarily
the result of the implementation of freedom or democracy, but
may be the result of corruption or greed.

The truth is, greed and corruption exist in all forms of government.
Intellectually, it has to be separated from concepts of democracy
and freedom. A benevolent dictatorship benefits a society
much more than a greedy corrupt dictatorship, right?
But, as a citizen, how do you deal with your countries corrupt dictator? What can you do if you want to get rid of someone like Stalin? What do you do if you want to get rid of someone like Nixon or Carter, or your local senator? You vote them out or just wait for
their term to expire.

Those citizens who have enjoyed freedom and democracy
WOULD NEVER freely choose another form of government.
It's important not to confuse 'corruption' or 'greed' with
freedom and democracy. Also, a bad person can have a good idea
and a good person can have a bad idea. An idea or ideal can be
separated from the person expressing it.   -doug

[Bruno]

[line]
Bruno, aren't you allowed to disagree in Belgium? A difference of opinion is not dangerous here in the US, in fact it is expected. -doug
[line]


I don't speak about Belgium but about RWD... i know now that a difference of opinion about politic is not accept by US people... remember some of the post... "it is a american forum...","you are not American...","allow american give advice to american...",... now i have understandt that about politics, american accept only opinion from other American...

[Bruce]

"now i have understandt that about politics, american accept only opinion from other American..."

Come on now Bruno - we are happy to listen to opinions from all people.  Whether we accept them has nothing to do with the person or country of the person the opinion comes from.  Everyone listens to and  accepts or does not accept advice or opinions from anybody else based on their own background and experience.  Some people are more open to change than others.  It has nothing to do with you personally, your opinions or your ability to sway others.  A person may remember what you wrote three years from now and say....................you know what, that Bruno was right. 

[Bruno]

Bruce, politic is always a delicated thema... and now, i don't more say my meaning about this... until i have solid prove about what i say... what is not possible with politic... i prefert use my time for speak about other thema, these forum have enough topic for stay me busy... in any case, for politic, no one can win... usually, the true is somewhere between the two meaning...

[Coulter]

Coulter, i agree fully with you but... be ready for the return of the fire... i have try so before and it is a dangerous excercice...

Bonsoir Bruno,

If only I knew how to add a pic under my name... I could protect myself from... fire...

[Coulter]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

How is that unethical?  The liberation of countries like
Lebanon, Iraq, and Afghanistan, will hopefully result in
their citizens being able to have greater control of their own
government. I believe that is true and will happen. I think
liberation is ethical. I think democracy is more ethical than
dictatorship. Don't you?

Liberation of Iraq? I hope you are kidding. Liberating is killing. Killing is liberating. Freedom to kill, kill of freedom.  How ethical, indeed! Your thoughts are under control, that is sure. Now why not go liberate a few other countries... Hmmm?!

Afghanistan... yeah, bringing the Taliban into power was a great democratic move. Did it never occurred to you that democracy is a long process which needs a long history and a lot of education (which you do not have in the US by the way)?

Did you read 1984? It is still very uptodate. More than ever.

[Photo Guy]

[line]
Bruno, aren't you allowed to disagree in Belgium? A difference of opinion is not dangerous here in the US, in fact it is expected. -doug
[line]I don't speak about Belgium but about RWD... i know now that a difference of opinion about politic is not accept by US people... remember some of the post... "it is a american forum...","you are not American...","allow american give advice to american...",... now i have understandt that about politics, american accept only opinion from other American...

Bruno, O N E person said that, so A L L Americans agree with that?!
Tell me you are joking.  -doug

[Coulter]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Coulter, i agree fully with you but... be ready for the return of the fire... i have try so before and it is a dangerous excercice...

Bruno, aren't you allowed to disagree in Belgium?
A difference of opinion is not dangerous here in the US, in fact
it is expected.  -doug

What is dangerous right now is to have an Arab look. Some time ago, it was to be Black (still is...?). Some time ago to be an Amerindian...

[Coulter]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

There is one big difference between Russia and USA. Russians in Siberia did not destroy the people living there, those people could maintain their place, culture, traditions and language, they were not hunted down and put like animals in "reserves". This is telling a lot about mentalities. And about who is really free.

What? You're referring to the 19th century, not the 21st.
Are you going to say that women can't vote here next?

I am only saying that this pattern of behaviour is deeply implemented in the US mentality and that it has not change since then. The US people freed the land from the Amerindians, plundering them, taking first the land, then the gold, then the oil, then the uranium (making sure that they will work to extract the uranium...), and now that there is nothing left to be taken in the US, they are looking elsewhere to take again all what they can to sustain their dispendious way of life. Good thing if the Russians will be able to keep their ressources for themselves.

[Coulter]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Those citizens who have enjoyed freedom and democracy
WOULD NEVER freely choose another form of government.
It's important not to confuse 'corruption' or 'greed' with
freedom and democracy. Also, a bad person can have a good idea
and a good person can have a bad idea. An idea or ideal can be
separated from the person expressing it.   -doug

You are living under a great illusion if you think that you are enjoying democracy and freedom. You have no idea about what democracy really is.

About the burglar example: the burglar is telling not to steal, so that he will have not concurrent. That is exactly what is happening with the USA currently. They want to be the only country stealing others. Covering the stealing with a beautiful blanket with the words "democracy" and "freedom" on it. Of course I understand that you have nothing against it, because you will benefit directly from it. And obvously you do not care that other people in other countries (and even in your country by the way) are starving. They can be happy: they have democracy and freedom to eat at all time. Isn't it great? You are paying your materialistic needs (you give us energy, oil, etc.) with monkey money (we give you democracy, freedom, etc.).

[Photo Guy]

Coulter,
What are you trying to say? What's your point?
What does the totalitarian control of the book, '1984' have to
do with anything? In that book, in the 'government',  there was NOT a diversity of political opinion, as there is now in democratic countries,
which have an extreme range of thoughts and ideas.
In this forum, I'm talking about ideas. I'm not talking about
which country or which leaders have done the most horrible things
in the last two centuries. It's interesting that I haven't heard anything
about the benefits of democracy or freedom, from posters of western
Europe. I guess those concepts mean nothing to them.

Yes, I agree, -it can take a long time for democracy to evolve.
Sometimes it does not take long. Did it take long in Japan?
As for Iraq, I think they do need some time for democracy to
grow strong. Before the invasion and liberation, what was it like
living there? What were the conditions for the citizens?  Was it okay for the government to exterminate Kurds? Was that okay with you?
Was it okay for Iraq to threaten its neighbors? I don't think Saddam
would've thought twice about annihilating Israel. Would that action have been better than the current situation? Why? Would the citizens of Iraq like to turn back the clock, and go back to the old days of Saddam? Which would they prefer? If they would prefer
the old Iraq, then the war was a big mistake. If they prefer the
new Iraq, then the horrible war had good results for them and
now the Lebanese people.   -doug L.  

 

[Photo Guy]

There is one big difference between Russia and USA. Russians in Siberia did not destroy the people living there, those people could maintain their place, culture, traditions and language, they were not hunted down and put like animals in "reserves". This is telling a lot about mentalities. And about who is really free.

What? You're referring to the 19th century, not the 21st.
Are you going to say that women can't vote here next?[/quote]
I am only saying that this pattern of behaviour is deeply implemented in the US mentality and that it has not change since then. The US people freed the land from the Amerindians, plundering them, taking first the land, then the gold, then the oil, then the uranium (making sure that they will work to extract the uranium...), and now that there is nothing left to be taken in the US, they are looking elsewhere to take again all what they can to sustain their dispendious way of life. Good thing if the Russians will be able to keep their ressources for themselves.[/quote]
Generalizing about the US mentality is unfair. What is the point in saying that anglo/white settlers on the east coast of the new
US, invaded and took away the land from the Indians? If you give that example then you should balance it with the land that other
peoples took. I can give you dozens of examples in Europe and
Asia. Should I? Here's an obscure example: The Navajo Indians
migrated down from Canada and took away the land of the
Pueblo Indians, Hopi Indians, here in North America. The mentality
of the 19th century in the US, no longer exists. Do you think we are
taking the land of the Iraq people? That is really far from the truth!
By the way, Navajo Indian code-talkers helped us win the war
in the Pacific against Japan. They eagerly volunteered to do this.
I have spoken with them here in Arizona. Indians today have
the same freedoms as the rest of us here. I know of a young
Navajo woman who left the reservation to study at University
in California. When she finished there, she chose to return to
her family on the reservation, rather than find a job elsewhere.
Family is very important to her. Every 20 or 30 years, the US
evolves and becomes a very different state of mind. We have no
interest in taking the land of foreign people.  -doug L.

[Photo Guy]

Those citizens who have enjoyed freedom and democracy
WOULD NEVER freely choose another form of government.
It's important not to confuse 'corruption' or 'greed' with
freedom and democracy. Also, a bad person can have a good idea
and a good person can have a bad idea. An idea or ideal can be
separated from the person expressing it.   -doug

You are living under a great illusion if you think that you are enjoying democracy and freedom. You have no idea about what democracy really is.

About the burglar example: the burglar is telling not to steal, so that he will have not concurrent. That is exactly what is happening with the USA currently. They want to be the only country stealing others. Covering the stealing with a beautiful blanket with the words "democracy" and "freedom" on it. Of course I understand that you have nothing against it, because you will benefit directly from it. And obvously you do not care that other people in other countries (and even in your country by the way) are starving. They can be happy: they have democracy and freedom to eat at all time. Isn't it great? You are paying your materialistic needs (you give us energy, oil, etc.) with monkey money (we give you democracy, freedom, etc.).
[/quote]
What paper have you been reading? It's way off. If a US corporation
wants to buy oil from Russian, then Russia should not sell it. It is
their choice. If a stupid person in Russia sells all of Russia's
oil to the US, then the Russian people have lost control and that is the actual problem, no? Where is the US trying to trade democracy and freedom for materials, oil, etc? When Ukraine buys gas from Russia, is that a horrible thing? Is international commerce a bad
thing? Give me some examples of 'we give you freedom and
democracy, for materials'. What and where are we 'stealing'?

Do you know how much the US has donated for Tsunami relief?
You think people are starving in the US?!!! Wow, where do you get
your information? It is goofy. If you want us to donate food to
your country, just ask us.  -doug

[Photo Guy]

Coulter, i agree fully with you but... be ready for the return of the fire... i have try so before and it is a dangerous excercice...

Bruno, aren't you allowed to disagree in Belgium?
A difference of opinion is not dangerous here in the US, in fact
it is expected.  -doug[/quote]
What is dangerous right now is to have an Arab look. Some time ago, it was to be Black (still is...?). Some time ago to be an Amerindian...[/quote]
You can find racism everywhere in the world. I admit that
Arabs are being looked at more closely because of 9/11, sure.
It would be idotic not to scutinize. But, there is no violence against
them and they are NOT being randomly hauled away to jail.
Again, your info about the US is inaccurate. You might consider
why some Arabs moved here. Was it because the US is a
horrible place with starving people and a government from
the book, '1984'?

I can talk about violations against human rights throughout
the world. Can you? Or do you only imagine it to exist here in
the US? If conditions were bad here, you'd see thousands of
people leaving for Mexico and Canada.

[Elen]

If a stupid person in Russia sells all of Russia's oil to the US, then the Russian people have lost control and that is the actual problem, no?

What if some persones in the USA have done a lot for help those "stupid Russian persons" took a power in Russia calling such action "supporting a fight for demoracy"? :?