An interesting book about democracy, freedom, tyranny and terror

[Photo Guy]

'The Case For Democracy, The Power of Freedom To Overcome
Tyranny and Terror', by Natan Sharansky

This is an amazingly good book by a former Soviet dissident, who
spent nine years in a gulag as political prisoner. I bought it on
a whim and was surprised by how interesting it is, so far.
It's hard to put this book down. Check it out.  -doug

[Elen]

One "wonderful" thing about all these "fighters for freedom against tyranny" which's amazing me until now is they all run away to the West after the tyramy's fall prefered not to live in that freedom and democracy they left for us.:X

[Photo Guy]

Who are 'all' of these people fleeing the country?
I knew a Jewish woman friend in school years ago, who decided to 'flee' the US and settle in Israel. Should we have forced her to stay?
Freedom is a good thing. It will be years before Ukraine and Russia
enjoy its full benefits. It's extremely important to have a free press,
freedom of speech, and rules of law that are chosen by the citizens.
It requires strength to remain in a country that is going through
growing pains. You are right. The less power the central government
has over its citizens, the better. If conditions are so bad in a country
that its citizens escape, then those bad conditions have to be
changed and corrected, right?   -doug L.

[Elen]

I'm not about "common" people I'm about "dissidents" who fought such badly for democracy in Russia but run away from the country once that "democracy" became a reality, left "common" people to deal with ruins of the coutry. 

It's extremely important to have a free press, freedom of speech, and rules of law that are chosen by the citizens.

I don't believe in press free of money, I don't see the "extremely important" of free spech if government doesn't care what you're babbling there and "rules of law that are chosen by the citizens" is such "real" thing like extraterrestrial life:D

You are right

I do know. I'm always right:D:D:D

[Bruno]

Elena,

When we speak of free press, we don't speak about free of money but free of meaning... press earn money with publicity... press need to be free of political influence...

The problem with the democracy in Russia, it is the speed of change... from one day to other, the system have change from communist to democracy... it is too fast... democracy need time to be build, slowly change from one system to the other... it is a adaption work... and all problem now are because of these fast change...

And when come about speaking of meaning, nobody have always right... the world is not black of white... it is gray...

[Elen]

Yeah?? And why only I thought the problem was in brazen-faced dermocrats without any  idea about conscience??

the system have change from communist to democracy

Well if THAT is called democracy then please let's return me in communism. I was happy there

And when come about speaking of meaning, nobody have always right...

I always had "feelings" the West thought it knew better what's "right" for us:?

[Vaughn]

Doug wrote:

This is an amazingly good book by a former Soviet dissident, who
spent nine years in a gulag as political prisoner.

Doug, I will check out this title. I've got to wonder what Elen thinks of Solzhenitsyn?

One "wonderful" thing about all these "fighters for freedom against tyranny" which's amazing me until now is they all run away to the West

 Elen, so far it sounds like you're critical of anyone who moves to the West. I appreciate your obvious sense of patriotism, it parallels that of my brother-in-law Dima who tells me "I would like to visit America, but I could never leave here - I am a Russian patriot - there's much work to be done here and I feel "called".

 

Well if THAT is called democracy then please let's return me in communism. I was happy there

Elen, you sound a bit angry here. For a grown woman with a flair for outspokenness and free thought, would you really be happier in a system where your destiny is largely decided for you?

I always had "feelings" the West thought it knew better what's "right" for us

The West never wanted to impose any system on the CCCP - rather, it hoped it would grow out of the old one, which, thankfully, it's begun to do. One of the biggest obstacles to its survival was its own failure to effectively distribute goods to the bulk of its citizens.
Is it fair for me to state that as fact?
 
Пока,  Vaughn

[Photo Guy]

Elen,
Is freedom a good thing? Yes, we free people in the West
think freedom is good for the former Soviet Union.
Don't you want freedom? Don't you want to control your
own government? Don't you want to have a newspaper that
can criticize the government? Politicians are often misguided
idiots, so it is very good to have some control over them,
because you can get rid of them, through democracy. Freedom is good for everyone, even for Iraq, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia.  -doug

[Elen]

Doug, I will check out this title. I've got to wonder what Elen thinks of Solzhenitsyn?

I think why he shut up now. And I wonder what does HE think now sitting at his dacha beside such high fence. And what do other dissedents think after reading Solzhenicyn "Russia we have lost"? Do they fell any guilt?

Elen, so far it sounds like you're critical of anyone who moves to the West.

Is something wrong with my English in that part of setence I'm not about "common" people .....:?

 

Elen, you sound a bit angry here. For a grown woman with a flair for outspokenness and free thought, would you really be happier in a system where your destiny is largely decided for you?

[/color][/color]

 

Are you going to say me that what I have now is all because of I have decided something? May be I suffer sclerosis because of my ages but I cann't recall anything have be done acorrding with my will during the last 15 years.

 

The West never wanted to impose any system on the CCCP - rather, it hoped it would grow out of the old one, which, thankfully, it's begun to do. [/color][/color]

I just have not time now to find something the West told about role of Reigan when he passed.

One of the biggest obstacles to its survival was its own failure to effectively distribute goods to the bulk of its citizens.
Is it fair for me to state that as fact?

[/color]
[/color]
I'll discuss thats later . I must run to the job

[Photo Guy]

Doug, I will check out this title. I've got to wonder what Elen thinks of Solzhenitsyn?

I think why he shut up now. And I wonder what does HE think now sitting at his dacha beside such high fence. And what do other dissedents think after reading Solzhenicyn "Russia we have lost"? Do they fell any guilt?
[/quote]
I haven't read Solzhenitsyn's book, but Sharansky knew him well.
I think Solzhenitsyn died over ten years ago. Let me know what you
think of Sharansky's book.

Have you voted in your local elections? Have you written to your
politicians to tell them what you think? ....Take control. Discuss
politics with your friends and co-workers, unless you are
afraid to, for some reason.    -doug

[Elen]

Have you voted in your local elections?

 No because there was the only one real candidate for Moscow major  post - Lushkov. Though I don't disappoint in him such badly. Let it be him.

Have you written to your politicians to tell them what you think? ....Take control.

For you inform THAT kind of communication with our politicans has died in 1905 year under Cossacks' whips. The accurate date is January ,9, 1905 - Bloody Sunday

Discuss politics with your friends and co-workers, unless you are
afraid to, for some reason. -doug 

I don't afraid to do that because I'm female and have not risk to get a fist in my face in those "hot" political discussion which had place some years ago in our office. :DThough our boss was forced to deny them for the sake of personnel's health . Lately these discussions just slowly died by themselves  because everybody has seen how actions of politicians of all colors were far from common people's interests.

 All your friendly advices are only for the case politicians want to know what we think But the truth is they don't give a damn.

Looking forward for somebody's replica about a chance to elect "good"politicians.:D

Don't be shy:D

 

 

[Elen]

I haven't read Solzhenitsyn's book, but Sharansky knew him well.

You should ask Saharov about Solzhenicin. (and vice versa) They did "like" each other so-o-o much:D:D

Let me know what you think of Sharansky's book.

Now....:?:? I can't promice that. Have not I told you I was too lazy:D (to find that book, read it up to th end, try to understand, form my own opinion, write back issue to you.... nope :?too many bored things for me:D) Sorry

Besides I don't like politic at all. It is above females' mind

[Photo Guy]

Elen,
Why cannot you elect good politicians? Or at least
'better' politicians? Talk to your neighbors and decide who would
be a better politician, and elect them. If you don't do this, you will
be ruined. Who are these politicians? Can't you find a guy like
Poland's Lech Walensa? A person for the people? Is there a free
exchange of ideas in Russia, or is there a fear factor? Now is the
time for Russian citizens to become involved in politics, and
fight corruption.   -doug

[Photo Guy]

I don't afraid to do that because I'm female and have not risk to get a fist in my face in those "hot" political discussion which had place some years ago in our office. :DThough our boss was forced to deny them for the sake of personnel's health .

What?!  Why was your boss forced to deny discussions?!!!    -doug

[Bruno]

[line]
Who are these politicians? Can't you find a guy like Poland's Lech Walensa?
[line]


Doug, Lech Walensa was not politician in the begin... he was from syndicat and have represent several worker... he have allow a change a gouverment by blocking all factory... the power of money ... and only later, he is become president...

Syndicat are only at the beginning in Russia and they have not a lot of power because the industry are not in very good health...

And without politic freedom from news, how can someone reach the tops... only a lot of money help but who have the money, the corrupted minister from before...

Politic in Russia is not easy... and sometime, it is dangerous for the life of outsider...

[Elen]

Talk to your neighbors and decide who would be a better politician, and elect them

I can't recall how much exactly our elections cost for candidates but the amount starts at MILLION DOLLARS:? Politic is BIG money and there is NO place for persons proposed by some " neighbors "  You are too naive (no abuse but that's true)

For some crazy idealist who still believe in free-of-money election there is also 9gr of lead.:? (we had such examples as well)

[Photo Guy]

Bruno,
Yes I know Walensa was not always a politician. That's was a
big plus for him.
Elen,
Is democracy in Russia doomed to fail?
As a naive outsider, I would say that if Russia cannot
allow a free press - freedom of speech(TV, newspapers etc), then it will sadly be doomed, ...but I cold be wrong.  -doug

[Elen]

Elen, Is democracy in Russia doomed to fail?

Well all our centuries-old history makes it clear that any "frivolity" in state's rule in Russia have followed to Chaos and breakdowns on all sphers of life but not to prosperity And BTW allien countries NEVER helped but only took their own advantages from situation.  Like America does now. To my mind americans concern more about a loss of posibility to buy up cheap safety stock of oil companies in Russia but not about us -poor things- losing "democracy"

[Frank]

Elen, I may be a little bit optimistic, but I think we are more concerned about you "poor things" than some oil.  Do you watch CNN or what? 

Really, we aren't that bad:D   Frank

[Elen]

You see I didn't hear from the West the words with concern about life of common people like me. The only one cryings I hear were about poor oil baron Hodorkovsky  (who was going to sell to the West oil safety stock giving 13% of Russian budget but had not time for that as Putin locked him in a cell)

[Frank]

How would an oil stock sale of this type affect the common person in Russia? 

I do not know the pro's and con's of how Russian stock is affected by foreigners being involved.  In this country, there are lots of stocks owned by foreigners.  That does not mean they keep the money the company makes.  It just means they can add some input to how the company is run and they derive a small mount of money from occasional dividends ( a small amount of profit sharing).  The majority of money made is simply selling the stock to a different person.

My first reaction is to feel sorry for the guy put in prison.  If he broke the law, he may deserve it.  However, being put in prison just for doing something Putin did not like is not right.

Honestly, we never hear too much about this over here in the US.  We do hear that President Putin is taking control of individual regions of Russia, taking the voice of the people away.  How is that good?  

I personally think each person knows best what is good for them.  They do not need government to tell them how to live.  Government employee's aren't usually too smart:D   

Please don't think I look down on Russian people.  I know lots of them in my area.  In fact, one of the largest Russian populations in the US is in my area.  I spend lots of time visiting with them and know their views on Russia and Ukraine.  Some of my views are a reflection of theirs.  I Love your culture very much.  I just want you all to experience freedom in the way I think we were meant to.  Wether or not you do is your choice, not mine:cool:     Frank  

 

[Elen]

How would an oil stock sale of this type affect the common person in Russia? 

Common person in Russia depends on budget which is filled mostly (sad but it's true) with oil's money.

Besides no one country can allow foriegners would control such big part of budget

In this country, there are lots of stocks owned by foreigners.

Can you name me one which control 10% of your budget?

We do hear that President Putin is taking control of individual regions of Russia, taking the voice of the people away.  How is that good? 

Do you inform that "democratic" elections of local governors have leaded to "unexpected" results - a huge part of governons in the most rich regions just happened to be mafiosy. (Surprise, surprise :? We coud not think voites would be bought by dirty money, because that just could not happen in democracy society)

I personally think each person knows best what is good for them.  They do not need government to tell them how to live.  Government employee's aren't usually too smart

I suppose "how to live" means "how to elect those who rule". Did I understand you right?

If so then I'd tell you I personally don't think there is any possible way to elect anybody by only "you own mind" It always be government-politic groups-financial groups-mafiosy - hell-knows-who-else but not you who really  make the choce

 at first "they" make a chose of contender  for you, 

 then "they" spend a lot of money for put into your head  with a help of so-called "free" mass media the idea that contender is the best-honest-fair-blah-lblah-blah person in the world, even if that has nothing to do with reality

then "they" eliminate rivals using all posible ways from "black PR up to guns"

then personal you go and put a  tick in election voite-list thinking it's you such smart free  guy who did the choice by himself:?

then "they" count voits like "they" want

So that who would be "they" don't bother me such badly. And as in Russia "they" are mostly mafiosy then I'd prefer government in this business (though government is not much better than mafiosy)

 

I just want you all to experience freedom in the way I think we were meant to. 

Thanks. I'm fed up already with it. Please don't be concerned about me . I feel better without that.

Please don't think I look down on Russian people.  I know lots of them in my area.  In fact, one of the largest Russian populations in the US is in my area

They are AMERICAN russians who are too far from life in Russia.

 

[Frank]

Thank you for your response, Elen:D  I really enjoy visiting with you.

As for who controls our budget, it is handled by the Senate and Congress, as well as the president.  What happens with the budget is affected by many different groups applying pressure on the individuals who make the decisions.  In other words, I can affect it by who I choose to vote for as my representative, special interest groups, etc.

Where ever there is power, there is corruption.  That is why we need to hold our elected representatives up to high standards.  If the system in a country will not hold those responsible for illegal goings on, the system will not work.  In other words, it does no good to have laws if the police and others will not honor them.

Many of the Russians living here are recent transplants.  They have family and friends still in the country.  So, they know what is going on.

I understand your fear of the unknown.  It would be unsettling to not know what the future holds.  I cannot begin to understand all of the intricacies of what life is like in your country.  Really, I don't care to understand all of it.  However, I just hope you will realize other people from other countries wish to be your friends.  If your views are different, that is okay:D         Frank

[Photo Guy]

Elen, Is democracy in Russia doomed to fail?

Well all our centuries-old history makes it clear that any "frivolity" in state's rule in Russia have followed to Chaos and breakdowns on all sphers of life but not to prosperity And BTW allien countries NEVER helped but only took their own advantages from situation.  Like America does now. To my mind americans concern more about a loss of posibility to buy up cheap safety stock of oil companies in Russia but not about us -poor things- losing "democracy"
[/quote]

We, in America, do care about the common people in Russia.
Bush told Putin that we are concerned about freedom and democracy in Russia. We have recently seen Putin's government take over ownership of large private businesses. We also want
to buy cheap oil, just like any country does. Something to think
about: In the history of the world, one democratic country was
NEVER at war with another democratic country.

Dictatorships are dangerous. When a government does not
answer to its people, it is out of control. When the US went into
Iraq, the French and Germans disagreed. They did not become our
enemies. They will always be our friends. We understand the
values of of 'liberty, equality and fraternity'. How much liberty was
there in a communist dictatorship?

If you don't have freedom of speech, a free press, and politicians
that you have chosen, then there is no way to know and experience
the benefits of freedom. I don't see how you can say that
true democracy and freedom are frivolous. If countries like
Japan and France can succeed with democracy, why can't Russia?
People are people.   -doug

[Bruno]

[line]
When the US went into Iraq, the French and Germans disagreed. They did not become our enemies. They will always be our friends. We understand the values of of 'liberty, equality and fraternity'.
[line]


Liberty, equality and fraternity... the devise of France


[line]
If countries like Japan and France can succeed with democracy, why can't Russia?

[line]


They can but give the time... it is a long process and go fast can give bad result... Don't forget Doug, our Western country have need several decenia to become democracy... Russia is only at the beginning of the proces... they are on the way now... before, it was not possible for people like Elena to say what she think via internet because it was no internet connection with russia, because russia was a closed country...

On some side, Russia was democratic before us... by example, the right to vote for woman, the right for woman to work in man domain like army... And about us, our democraty make some evolution each day's...