RW Women's jobs

[KenC]

Michelangelo,
You don't seem to understand that to tell someone that they would not need to go to med school in order to be a doctor here, even though it might be technically correct, would be more misleading than to tell them that they would have to attend.  You obviously do not "get" what Conner was saying at all.
KenC

[Turboguy]

I will be the first to admit that I don't know didly about the subject.   That is part of the reason that I was not paying much attention to it for a while.

My only thing I plan to say on the subject is that it seems to be getting very rare to even find an American Doctor anymore.  I am guessing a Dr from India would have to go through much the same things a a Dr from Russia who was a real doctor.   It just makes me think that that whatever they have to do, it can be done if they want to bad enough.

[Michelangelo]

Michelangelo,
You don't seem to understand that to tell someone that they would not need to go to med school in order to be a doctor here, even though it might be technically correct, would be more misleading than to tell them that they would have to attend.  You obviously do not "get" what Conner was saying at all.

Ken, this is a good post and places things in one context. But it is not the same context nor target I was addressing:  What the national standards are for doc certification in the US.

However, please understand I have been writing in the abstract, minus a specific case.  Now you are providing a concrete example, which shifts the discussion to a different plane.

What I mean by this is that it is one thing to state what the requirements are to become a doctor in the US. It's another thing to put a specific face or example on it.

Let me be clear--I think we need to clearly state what the requirements are.  I'll quote Lindochka; her post was very clear:

I'm sorry to seem argumentative, but this is simply not accurate. In the US, foreign-trained physicians do not have to repeat medical school. They must pass the TOEFL if they were not educated in English. Then, like new graduates of US medical schools, they must take the MCATs and complete a residency program (three to four years depending on their specialty). They receive their (state-issued) MD licenses at the end of the first year of residency, as do graduates of American medical schools, and can sit for the board exams for certification in their respective specialties upon completion of their residencies, as can American-trained physicians.

These are national standards/requirements. Therefore, an FSU-trained physician with a good grasp of English could theoretically be licensed, board-eligible, and in practice in the US within as little as four years, not eight. My own internist's English was not so good when she arrived here from Kishinev, where she was a practicing cardiologist, so it may have taken her eight years from when she arrived in the US to when she was ready to hang out a shingle but that was only because she had to take the time to get her English up to speed for the TOEFL.

There are some other factors which can affect the outcome of an FSU-trained physician's efforts to obtain US credentials, among them the number of FSU-trained physicians who might be seeking a residency in a particular area. In my part of the country, where there are numerous medical schools and teaching hospitals, there is also a large FSU immigrant community which includes a lot of Russian-speaking young people who have attended college and medical school in the US. Thus, the competition among Russian speakers for residency spots is quite fierce and graduates of US medical schools would receive preference.

Some FSU-trained physicians go into other healthcare jobs, some opt out of healthcare fields entirely. (The brutal on-call schedule of residency training can be a deal-breaker for anyone much past the age of 30, even with a supportive partner/family.)

I apologize for the interruption. Please carry on.

bold is mine for empathise.But as you can see, she stated the requirements to correct JB's misinformation.  But then she spoke in the next to the last paragraph about how difficult the move would be.

To my mind, her post was perfect.  She balanced both sides.

But from this post, people took pot shots at her and anyone else who dared say she was correct about what  the national standards are.

So in my mind Ken, you have posed a different issue here.  The issue is the application to a perspective FSU bride or groom. The rule of law is one thing; meeting the rule is another.

Since you gave an example, I'll give one, actually two, also:

Case 1:  An American meets an attractive 35 year old Russian doctor with limited English.  She tells him she loves her profession and wants to continue medicine in the US.  He tells her, no problem, you just have to pass your tests and do residency.   Ken--I think that is the example you posed in your post.  Of course, even though it might be technically correct, it would be misleading and in my judgment, wrong.

Case 2:  A 60 year old American man meets a 53 year old Russian doctor on a cruise. She speaks flawless English. She finished first in her class in medical school 23 years earlier.  Since then, she has practiced medicine in Moscow and overseen millions of dollars in research projects, and has won awards for her research into practice research articles.  Over many business trips and meetings, they fall in love. She tells him she wants to move to the US to be with him, and that she can easily be credentiled there. She knows this to be true because she has many colleagues who are American doctors and they have explained the AMA requirements to her.

My opinion?  Case 1 will not make it; Case 2 will absolutely make it.   Most cases are closer to Case 1 than to Case 2.  However, my target in all my posts to this point were to the abstract--the rule of law and not a specific case.

So yes, I do "get it."  But I was posting to the purpose of our accurately stating what requirements are.

I think we all view things from different lenses.  That's good; I do understand your take on this, and your trying to make application.

At that time, I was not trying to make appliication.  My lens was focused on what the requirements are, and they be posted accurately.  From that baseline I'm happy to move to application, where I think we all have the same glasses on  

[BC]

Lindochkas remark:

Some FSU-trained physicians go into other healthcare jobs, some opt out of healthcare fields entirely. (The brutal on-call schedule of residency training can be a deal-breaker for anyone much past the age of 30, even with a supportive partner/family.)

Says enough to place women wanting to practice medicine in the US at the back of the line (if I were looking).

Med school or not it's better suited for single folks..

Many times in life it's what's practical that counts, not what's possible.

Start looking at the bottom line instead of quibbling over semantics...

Besides, I'm past the stage that pagers are a turn-on.

[Michelangelo]

Lindochkas remark:

Says enough to place women wanting to practice medicine in the US at the back of the line (if I were looking).

Med school or not it's better suited for single folks..

Many times in life it's what's practical that counts, not what's possible.

Start looking at the bottom line instead of quibbling over semantics...

Besides, I'm past the stage that pagers are a turn-on.

I love it, BC!  This is the ultimate post and ultimate truth!

You hit a home run!  The big pictue is

DON'T MARRY A DOCTOR !

Long hours, dying patients, and pagers 

Good job, chap 

[DKMM]

I'm hoping to find a soccer mom type.  Am I looking in the wrong place?  Of course she can work if she wants to except when the little ones are, well, little.  That's my problem with AW I guess, the intelligent ones all want to work hard and come home exhausted. . . I can't find a nice normal girl that would want to be a homemaker.  Its admirable for a woman to be able to make it on her own but I don't need her income I need her expertise on how to run a household.  *sigh*  I've never dated a college educated AW girl that can cook.  Sure there are plenty of uneducated types that are more than willing to take up the task but that's a dead end for me as well. 

[tim 360]

I can't believe I read the whole thing.  I can't believe I read the whole thing.  I just don't quite have the words.  Whattsamatta 'wit some of you guys???  Dan I think you should add a virtual duel,  aka: a shootout feature to the board which kills threads and posters (virtually)that get this nuts.  Or neutralizes posters computers.  Maybe with a Wild West theme. Some of you guys definitely have some venom or personality problems or maybe just a bad couple days?  Maybe its gasoline prices or taxes but some of you need to think before you post?  Ya know all these pages to answer a guys simple question is absurd.  So Jimmy Tee,  the real answer is:  If you marry a lady from the FSU who says she is a Doctor the odds are quite likely it will take some years for her to have her own Medical Doctor shingle here.  As Andrewfi pointed out,  her Doctor title there may only equate to a nurse, or PA here and in that case add more time.  Ok gotta go read War And Peace.  Ciao,

[PeeWee]

Honestly, it was not an attack. Maybe my words "sole title" were
ill-chosen.

PeeWee, maybe we BOTH need to take a deep breathe?
 which was:  My short-form answer: NO. What I would discourage, though, is the dependence on a successful medical transition plan as the very foundation of a future marriage.

I agree. It would be dumb to put the career expectation before all else. I asked my question of you because I wanted to know if you thought it was an impossible task to accomplish or meerly a hard route to take. I can deal with "hard". Impossible is a word that I do not know the meaning of.

Hey, I don't breathe. I hold my breath a lot and hope for the best.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

Since I'm at work now I don't have the beer but the rest applies...

Funny also that there is really a general agreement from all parties that this is not an easy path to take and is not for everyone.

yep. Generally everyone does agree on the easy of the path. Which is good. It is not easy but it is not impossible either. Encouragement is give to those who are ripe for the challenge. The faint of heart need not apply.

Peewee

[Turboguy]

I'm hoping to find a soccer mom type.  Am I looking in the wrong place?  Of course she can work if she wants to except when the little ones are, well, little.  That's my problem with AW I guess, the intelligent ones all want to work hard and come home exhausted. . . I can't find a nice normal girl that would want to be a homemaker.  Its admirable for a woman to be able to make it on her own but I don't need her income I need her expertise on how to run a household.  *sigh*  I've never dated a college educated AW girl that can cook.  Sure there are plenty of uneducated types that are more than willing to take up the task but that's a dead end for me as well. 

This is sort of off topic and might be better in a separate post but as a rule FSU women are great cooks.   As far as homemakers you might want to try the Philippines or SA.  Most of the FSU women don't like the idea of being a stay at home mom.  Most of them are smart and educated and find staying at home boring.

[PeeWee]

KenC, I thought Conner's post was excellent and told him so.

In a practical sense, it's very difficult for a foreign doctor to come to the US (but the ranks are growing).

Commen sense does tell us that the profession of "doctor" is a difficult transition from the FSU to the US.

My objection has always been to the misstatement of requirements.  Requirements are black and white.   How one meets those requirements seems to be the detour we are now taking, and I'm on board with most by saying it's very difficult to do.

I think that if this goes to a FAQ section, most of what JB said could be left as is.  But I'd hate to see incorrect information posted there. Just edit out the line that says they must go to medical school again.

AMA will state...25% of the current doctors now licensed in the US are foreign trained. The doctor that attended to my father last time he was hospitalized was Romanian..I talked to her about it. Next door to me, again, Burma medical school, one year later, US MD. So what you are saying is that Russian medical schools do no prepare Russian doctors well enough for practice in the US. All other foriegn trained doctors seem to be handling this quite well. I am beginning to agree with that thought. Russian doctors are basicly hacks when compared to US doctors. Is that what we are agreeing to?

Peewee

[Mamma D]

The last several days have brought notes that the finals were taken and degrees recieved....

These ladies have outdone themselves and my hat is off to each and every one of them..

WELL DONE WE ARE PROUD OF YOU!:) You know who you are......

Mamma D

[DKMM]

This is sort of off topic and might be better in a separate post but as a rule FSU women are great cooks.   As far as homemakers you might want to try the Philippines or SA.  Most of the FSU women don't like the idea of being a stay at home mom.  Most of them are smart and educated and find staying at home boring.

Well OK I don't mean just stay at home but I don't want a career climber.  And staying at home while the kids are younger than 9 is a must.  Funny i have no problem finding 30-something AW that LOVE that idea. . .

[Elen]

Russian doctors are basicly hacks when compared to US doctors. Is that what we are agreeing to?
Peewee

I think if we would place your excellent american doctors into Russian reality they would appear even worse and hopeless than russians in America
Is THAT what we are argeeing to? 

Also you should understand that doctors who SPECIAlY build their carrer in that way for to immigrate and work abroad are not the same like someone who comes to the USA on K1 for you could judge by their cases ( or have you dealt with other cases as well ?) about how bad doctors educated in Russia basically

[BC]

I think if we would place your excellent american doctors into Russian reality they would appear even worse and hopeless than russians in America
Is THAT what we are argeeing to? 

I sorta see your point Elen..

Patient:  I have a tummy ache...
Doc: Well in order to find out what's wrong we'll do an abdominal CAT scan and a zillion lab tests.  The Radiologist and Lab techs will be able to see what's going on, then the PA will probably prescribe some antacid if the tests are neg. (Thinking to himself 'gotta keep my malpractice insurance down and get to the next patient').  ..Tough job.

This is sort of off topic and might be better in a separate post but as a rule FSU women are great cooks.   As far as homemakers you might want to try the Philippines or SA.  Most of the FSU women don't like the idea of being a stay at home mom.  Most of them are smart and educated and find staying at home boring.

Turbo,
This statement is totally absurd. DKMM - just disregard it.

[PeeWee]

I think if we would place your excellent american doctors into Russian reality they would appear even worse and hopeless than russians in America
Is THAT what we are argeeing to? 

Also you should understand that doctors who SPECIAlY build their carrer in that way for to immigrate and work abroad are not the same like someone who comes to the USA on K1 for you could judge by their cases ( or have you dealt with other cases as well ?) about how bad doctors educated in Russia basically

Good point. It would then seem that it is not the doctor's skill level that is in question but rather the specific requirements of the country that is allowing that doctor to pratice the skills. American trained doctors would flounder in Russia and the reverse would happen to the Russian trained doctor in the US. Is that what you are suggesting?

Is Russian a harder language for an English speaking person to learn than English is for a Russian speaking person to learn? If so then it would be harder for an English speaking doctor, given that they would first need to be proficient in the language before they could begin their practice, to establish themselves in FSU than it would a Russian, et al, to establish in the UK or the US.

The difficulty comes in fluency of language than in conversion of skills from the former system to the new system. The dual skills required will dictate the time it takes to transition. We have established the the Russian would not need to need to reenter medical school once the language skill had been aquired. They would certainly have to demonstrate their skill via the testing route with some additional university training added.

It sounds like the length of time required could range from one to eight years. As I mentioned before my neighbor was working as an MD within one year of her arrival in the US. That means that for an exceptional person that it can be done. For a non motivated person the transition may never happen. Or something in between the two as also possible.

Peewee

[andrewfi]

BTW, I should point out that the differences I pointed out are differences in levels and sometimes breadth of skill and not quality. A person who has received only a couple of years of training is not going to be transplanting hearts eh?

So, I am entirely happy to deal with the local medical services and the results when my girlfriend and I were dealing with breast cancer were first rate.

The problem is that people do not understand the differences, both the women and the guys. The chances are that many in western medical care are significantly overtrained for their particular role and that people with appropriate training will need additional training on order to be able to practice that which they had hitherto done perfectly well.

I gotta say that if I were looking for a wife, a woman who was a doctor, or planning to be one, would not be first choice, for all sorts of reasons, which kinda leaves me wondering about the motivation of those guys who do seem to have 'medical professional' on their list of requirements.

Peewee - it is only true that those whose professional qualifications are acceptable do not need to go through medical school once more. That said, as jb correctly points out, where is a person going to learn to use the techniques commonly practised in the US but in a medical school. As noted upthread, those women who have requisite qualifications have no need of some dreaming man to help them along. The ones you guys are meeting and squabbling about, in one way or another do NOT have requisite qualifications.

Just ask yourself this question: Why would an intelligent, well trained, competent physician, able to practice in the US, or other countries marry a relative stranger in order to achieve that goal?
It makes no sense. She would simply register with one of the many agencies, send on her transcript and resume and later attend an interview. The agency would arrange employment, visas initial accommodation etc etc and she would be away earning very significant sums and not having to play wifey with some middleaged dood.

[Mamma D]

Is it just me... or do I hear a lot of Nationalistic chatter here?

It is very hard to find an Intern slot... if you do not come from a recognised Med school. And a residency is even harder...

That is a fact and most.. I say most of these ladies, are not fluent in English and that is a big mountain to climb.

I worked in the health care field most of 40 years and met some really crappy American M.D.'s educated in top schools! And some that were really great, that gave great care and were also caring.
i have worked with doctors from all over the world...Some very good...some really awful, and  a lot in the middle...

Just like people the world over.

Now some women are nester's.... others are not. If a lady wants to stay home and care for home and family, that is good. I see many of our ladies doing both, nesting and finding her place in the community.  BUT... this should be her choice... she will know when she id ready to venture out.

My Russian born daughter ...began with mentoring a Math and a Science competitive team in the Middle school Basil attended....First year they placed high at state level...something new for our schools, they competed againt high school kids! It has since been droped no one to spearhead it.

When Basil moved to High school, these same kids were part of the International Baccalaureate group and are destined to attend the best schools..with scholarships!

She moved on to the Library... shelving books and providing insight into the FSU..Then to classes in Library sciences...

Always teaching Basil what he would have been taking in the FSU. So he has a double education... one foot in each culture. And is also the Gold medel winner in his class, at the Classical piano compition in Denver.

She is an excellent teacher and takes good care of our boys..hers and mine   And she does it HER WAY.....

[ConnerVT]

Mamma, I don't think that there is any (OK, much) nationalism taking place.  Just not a lot of discussion about the differences between different country's approaches to medicine.

There are good and bad doctors in all countries.  After all, 50% of medical students graduate in the bottom half of their class.   

Medicine, as any technical field, has it's own language and terminology.  The cold war made it difficult for the FSU and the West to share their language and discoveries since WWII.  And a lot has changed in medical science since then.  Where there are many doctors from the Far East and other places who can hit the streets running in the USA, the doctors from the FSU are at a disadvantage here, if only because they have not had the benefit of knowledge exchange between our two countries.

I believe this is where the difficulty lies.  As Andrew and I pointed out, someone whom has gained experience in both Russian and Western medical methodologies, as well as fluent enough in English, would have little difficulty in coming to the USA and becoming certified.  But that is an exceptional individual, one with a strong career track planted in their mind since an early age.  They would not need someone to help them enter the USA.  They could likely do it by his/herself.  And they probably aren't looking to settle down and start a family in the USA either.  They are a big fish where they are, likely well advantaged, and could have many suitors to chose from in their home country.

Those less knowledgeable or gifted still may be talented in what they do.  But their training wouldn't include the necessary knowledge of Western medicine, and would require substantial retraining if that were to come to the USA.

FSU doctors working in the public medical field typically have less resources than their American counterparts.  They have learned to do the best with what they have (and with what many people can barely afford).  From anecdotal evidence, I believe, in general, they also are more compassionate than their American brethren.  After all, compassion doesn't require a big checkbook.

[PeeWee]

BTW, I should point out that the differences I pointed out are differences in levels and sometimes breadth of skill and not quality. A person who has received only a couple of years of training is not going to be transplanting hearts eh?

So, I am entirely happy to deal with the local medical services and the results when my girlfriend and I were dealing with breast cancer were first rate.

The problem is that people do not understand the differences, both the women and the guys. The chances are that many in western medical care are significantly overtrained for their particular role and that people with appropriate training will need additional training on order to be able to practice that which they had hitherto done perfectly well.

I gotta say that if I were looking for a wife, a woman who was a doctor, or planning to be one, would not be first choice, for all sorts of reasons, which kinda leaves me wondering about the motivation of those guys who do seem to have 'medical professional' on their list of requirements.

Peewee - it is only true that those whose professional qualifications are acceptable do not need to go through medical school once more. That said, as jb correctly points out, where is a person going to learn to use the techniques commonly practised in the US but in a medical school. As noted upthread, those women who have requisite qualifications have no need of some dreaming man to help them along. The ones you guys are meeting and squabbling about, in one way or another do NOT have requisite qualifications.

Just ask yourself this question: Why would an intelligent, well trained, competent physician, able to practice in the US, or other countries marry a relative stranger in order to achieve that goal?
It makes no sense. She would simply register with one of the many agencies, send on her transcript and resume and later attend an interview. The agency would arrange employment, visas initial accommodation etc etc and she would be away earning very significant sums and not having to play wifey with some middleaged dood.

the reason why an intellegent, well trained, competent doctor, able ot practice medicine in US would marry a relative stranger is because her desire is not to further her career but rather to find her, as some of you sappy guys call it, "soul mate." What she happens to do as a career choice is secondary but since it is a career choice that she both knows and loves then of course she may want to pursue that option when she arrives in her new country.

What it sounds like you are suggesting is that any professional woman, if she had the option not to marry a Western man would not do it. I don't agree with that logic. What you are also suggesting is that only non professional women would think to marry a Western man...so what does that say about all of you guys who have married RW to date? Did you look low in the talent pool, meaning that you did not purposely choose a more intellegent or more motivated woman for fear that she may be using you to advance her career. The opposite of that, or course, is that if she is not a professional, but rather a shop girl, then she ends up using you anyway to better her situation in life. Either way it turns out to be the same thing.

Peewee

[Turboguy]

This is off topic except being about Doctors, but for those who knew I was heading for Ukraine today and wished me well, I will just say that I had to cancel the Ukriane part of my trip.  I have been sick for a while and seemed to be getting better but have been a lot worse the last few days.  I decided not to go to Ukriane and see my doctor instead.   Now maybe if my Dr was a good Russian one I would get fixed up faster.  I am still hoping to salvage the Russia part of my trip but not counting on it.

[BC]

PeeWee,

Hate to be brash, but it seems like you are sold on the idea so why don't you go ahead and do the deed. Let us know how things turn out.

I'm am having a hard time deciding whether you are just being overly argumentative for entertainment purposes or really trying to understand and evaluate the different angles expressed here.  I'm leaning towards the former, even somewhat trollish behavior.

btw am still curious whether or not you will offer to share the book you wrote on human trafficking with us.. Heck I'd even to order it if you post details as to where it can be purchased.  I also remember you mentioned in a post that you dealt with airliner import and export, later talking about model airplanes.. Your initial post certainly left the wrong impression here.  I do hope you are more clear with the ladies than with us.

[PeeWee]

PeeWee,

Hate to be brash, but it seems like you are sold on the idea so why don't you go ahead and do the deed. Let us know how things turn out.

I'm am having a hard time deciding whether you are just being overly argumentative for entertainment purposes or really trying to understand and evaluate the different angles expressed here.  I'm leaning towards the former, even somewhat trollish behavior.

btw am still curious whether or not you will offer to share the book you wrote on human trafficking with us.. Heck I'd even to order it if you post details as to where it can be purchased.  I also remember you mentioned in a post that you dealt with airliner import and export, later talking about model airplanes.. Your initial post certainly left the wrong impression here.  I do hope you are more clear with the ladies than with us.

You will read nothing here about where to find books that I have written. It has never been my intent to establish a forum presence in order to hawk books. As a result you will nothing of it from me. I might mention it as a source or a qualification but nothing more.

Regarding impressions. Whatever impression you gain from anyone is one that you made through assumptions. Passing comments are just that and details not included if not relevant to the topic not necessary to the discussion.

You are right, I am going to do whatever it is that I am going to do. Nothing is going to change that nor will what I say change anything that anyone else intends to do. All if for the sake of discussion or we may as well all remain mute. There would be a lot of white and no black as a result of our non communication.

Whether I am overly, if there is such and thing and by whose measure, arguementative or not is arguement not the foundation of beliefs and ideas that are expressed through converstation? If my point of view gives anyone the cause to think or to respond in kind then is there a harm to that? The opposite of that is passativity, is it not? You should know by now that I am not a passive sort. Of course I am going to argue a topic or a point. Who would not if they did not either agree or if they wanted to better understand the subject at hand.

Clear enough? Great! Onward!

Peewee

[BC]

You will read nothing here about where to find books that I have written. It has never been my intent to establish a forum presence in order to hawk books. As a result you will nothing of it from me. I might mention it as a source or a qualification but nothing more.

Feel free to pm the details.  I promise I will not post it on this or any other forum.

Regarding impressions. Whatever impression you gain from anyone is one that you made through assumptions. Passing comments are just that and details not included if not relevant to the topic not necessary to the discussion.

My wife would have a hard time understanding this concept.

You are right, I am going to do whatever it is that I am going to do. Nothing is going to change that nor will what I say change anything that anyone else intends to do. All if for the sake of discussion or we may as well all remain mute. There would be a lot of white and no black as a result of our non communication.

A 'thinking' man would take a pause to at least scratch his chin.

Whether I am overly, if there is such and thing and by whose measure, arguementative or not is arguement not the foundation of beliefs and ideas that are expressed through converstation? If my point of view gives anyone the cause to think or to respond in kind then is there a harm to that? The opposite of that is passativity, is it not? You should know by now that I am not a passive sort. Of course I am going to argue a topic or a point. Who would not if they did not either agree or if they wanted to better understand the subject at hand.

I am having a hard time understanding this paragraph.. a very hard time.  Maybe Andrew can help me out.

[PeeWee]

Feel free to pm the details.  I promise I will not post it on this or any other forum.
 

My wife would have a hard time understanding this concept.

A 'thinking' man would take a pause to at least scratch his chin.

I am having a hard time understanding this paragraph.. a very hard time.  Maybe Andrew can help me out.

bc, I apprecate your interest. Whether I post it or pm it the effect is the same. I am not going to hawk books on this forum or any other forum, unless it be a writer's forum. I don't even belong to a writer's forum any more. Those people are way too catty for my taste. I've never seen a bigger group of insecure critics in my life.

Get this. About a year ago there was a computer malfunction with the Amazon.com website. As a result the website listed the real names of those who had reviewed the various books. Come to find out that many authors had submitted reviews for their own books, not just once, but many times using various and bogus names. But what was more interesting was that many of the negative reviews written for the various books were actually written by jealous other writers who were trying to either discredit the work or they wanted to make their own work look better. I found out about that and said to myself, on the spot, enough of these people. Way too much hot air...even for me...the grand master of hot air.

Regards  Peewee