The End of Europe?

[msmobyone]

English summary and links here  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-21/german-government-urges-citizens-stockpile-food-water-first-time-cold-war-ended

"A spokesman for the Interior Ministry said the plan would be discussed by the cabinet on Wednesday and presented by the minister that afternoon. He declined to give any details on the content."

Sounds a little more definite...

Nope..you are quoting zeroclue.com's version of the same misinfo

I note they repeat that a third party says 'there is a plan' ..

''the German government plans to tell citizens to stockpile food and water in case of an attack or catastrophe, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung newspaper reported on Sunday.''

Suggest you wait til Wednesday ..

[BC]

Jeez... y'all need to learn a bit of German.

For the last 30 or 40 years civil defense plans have been a non issue and passed down to the state level.  Since 9/11 there have been thoughts about revising the plans to be more effective so it was again passed to the federal level to prepare a plan that is being unveiled.  Recent history with floods etc also raised thoughts to have better plans.  A gallon of water and food for a few days in case you can't use the local water or to bridge until supplies can get to you.  Most folks already have enough stocked in their kitchen pantry and fridge so no rush on the stores.

Another reasonable scenario mentioned is some large scale cyberattack in the prevailing 'just in time' society where stores no longer have huge warehouses and are refilled daily.

Yes of course any civil disruption or terrorist events can close down roads.. If it is near a noodle factory then maybe it's a good idea to have a few noodles on hand.. nothing more, nothing less, more like a 'prevent inconvenience' plan than worried about WWIII

I'm sure in the US there are similar plans and suggestions that folks do the same or even more in hurricane, flood and tornado prone areas.  Germans are typically a very orderly folk and love being prepared.  They spend enormous amounts of time and money to be prepared for just about anything.  It's a part of their alphabet.

Germany does not have a national guard.. all security aspects are taken care of by police etc.  The mention of using military folks is just to help out the police and firemen if they need an extra hand to protect government assets.. ya know help fill sandbags and stuff..

The timing for announcing this plan is a bit off putting maybe since it's election time so it's getting 'Trumped up' a bit..  That's all.

http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2016-08/zivilschutzkonzept-bundesregierung-hamsterkaeufe-bundeswehr

Titled 'No Panic'....

[Brasscasing]

I had lunch a couple of weeks ago with a friend of my brother who needed a ride from an alma mater function here on the island.

He's a Dentist, a native German who lives in Lahr. I passed through Lahr going points East (and West) during my time in the service so we talked about the history of the Canadian Base there and such.

During the conversation he made a comment during discourse around current politics in Germany that caught my interest...He mentioned that the German's are quietly rebuilding their military, especially their armored units, not by large numbers but upgrading what they do have. He also mentioned they're building a new stealth fighter.

Kinda forgot about the conversation until I perused recent posts in this thread so I just looked it up and sure enough...

Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado

..."Germany plans to develop a new fighter jet to replace Tornado jets in the long term and it aims to hold initial talks with European partners in 2016 about what features they want in the aircraft, according to a document seen by Reuters on Sunday."...

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-defence-jet-idUKKBN0U30PS20151220

Probably not very relevant to the discussion but it shows the German's may be paying attention to something in amongst recent events in Europe.

Brass

[deccie]

Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado

..."Germany plans to develop a new fighter jet to replace Tornado jets in the long term and it aims to hold initial talks with European partners in 2016 about what features they want in the aircraft, according to a document seen by Reuters on Sunday."...

Brass

Well, the Tornado is not a fighter to start with  - it's a strike aircraft. The ADV/F3 fighter  variant only served with Saudi/Italy/UK and has been retired by all 3 for some years now.

The replacement for the Strike Variant of the Tornado is already in full swing with the Eurofighter.
The numbers of Tornadoes are already being drawn down significantly.

As aircraft come up for major maintenance both in UK and in Germany they have a  habit of being sent for "RTP" or "Reduce to Produce" spares.

It is doubtful any Tornadoes would be in service with Germany  by the time any aircraft not yet in production would actually be available. RAF intends to retire its last Tornadoes in just a few years from now.

[Brasscasing]

Well, the Tornado is not a fighter to start with  - it's a strike aircraft. The ADV/F3 fighter  variant only served with Saudi/Italy/UK and has been retired by all 3 for some years now.

The replacement for the Strike Variant of the Tornado is already in full swing with the Eurofighter.
The numbers of Tornadoes are already being drawn down significantly.

As aircraft come up for major maintenance both in UK and in Germany they have a  habit of being sent for "RTP" or "Reduce to Produce" spares.

It is doubtful any Tornadoes would be in service with Germany  by the time any aircraft not yet in production would actually be available. RAF intends to retire its last Tornadoes in just a few years from now.

Good point (strike vs fighter). I didn't look very closely into the actual aircraft being sought or retired.  I was more interested in his comments and news itself in that it's a departure from the usual German defensive posture even though aircraft do need to be retired and replaced every so often, anyways.

Brass

[deccie]

I don't believe it Brass simply because the history of collaborative military projects in Europe tend to be long, drawn out and painful for all parties involved - though sometimes splendid hardware does (eventually) get built. (one of my favorites being the SEPECAT Jaguar).

BAE controls much of the  military procurement in the UK these days and I'm sure they would try to screw the Germans for as much as they could...

[Brasscasing]

I don't believe it Brass simply because the history of collaborative military projects in Europe tend to be long, drawn out and painful for all parties involved - though sometimes splendid hardware does (eventually) get built. (one of my favorites being the SEPECAT Jaguar).

BAE controls much of the  military procurement in the UK these days and I'm sure they would try to screw the Germans for as much as they could...

I'll defer, deccie. He wasn't exactly a military expert and I would guess his comments were gleaned from perception (media) than anything else.

Still, he had the perception.

We also talked about the influx of immigrants and refugees (both Germany and Canada). He mentioned the immigrant population is not assimilating into German culture but trying to impose their own cultural values onto German society which apparently is causing problems.

Brass

[deccie]

We also talked about the influx of immigrants and refugees (both Germany and Canada). He mentioned the immigrant population is not assimilating into German culture but trying to impose their own cultural values onto German society which apparently is causing problems.

Brass

My wife has friends living in Germany - that agrees with what her friends are telling her. However, I'd add that Turkish immigrants to Germany have been causing problems of a similar nature there for some decades already...

[Brasscasing]

My wife has friends living in Germany - that agrees with what her friends are telling her. However, I'd add that Turkish immigrants to Germany have been causing problems of a similar nature there for some decades already...

Our focus was more on the Syrian migrants, however, your comment would be consistent with my understanding of the situation as well.

Brass

[LiveFromUkraine]

My wife has friends living in Germany - that agrees with what her friends are telling her. However, I'd add that Turkish immigrants to Germany have been causing problems of a similar nature there for some decades already...

That reminds me of a documentary I saw on Germany and immigration.  It talked about women having to get new identities to hide from family if they want a more "German" way of life.

[deccie]

That reminds me of a documentary I saw on Germany and immigration.  It talked about women having to get new identities to hide from family if they want a more "German" way of life.

Does not surprise me at all. I have a Canadian friend who is married to a Jordanian woman and she had to essentially do the same sort of thing.

[msmobyone]

Probably not very relevant to the discussion but it shows the German's may be paying attention to something in amongst recent events in Europe.

Brass

Not relevant - at all.

We are discussing a POSSIBLE revision of civil defence policy. Please explain how Stealth Fighters have a role help in any action against home based suicide bombers ...

Thanks to BC for making it clearer

In the meantime, I feel just as safe in a mall or on a train, plane in Europe as I'd feel in a cinema, school, mall in -say -USA

[msmobyone]

Here we go ..AGAIN

While we have examples of ''honour killings''which the 'end of europe' doom-merchants predict, I'll remind you of waves of immigrants that were admitted to the UK that caused 'objections' and have integrated and are now cheered when winning golds...

Same for France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Italy........

[Brasscasing]

Not relevant - at all.

We are discussing a POSSIBLE revision of civil defence policy. Please explain how Stealth Fighters have a role help in any action against home based suicide bombers ...

Looking to get schooled again, I see....

Germans are being told to stockpile food.


http://time.com/4460802/germany-stockpile-food-water-catastrophe/


Crazy stuff happening over there.  I understand a lot of the terrorist were citizens, but it does seem the amount of violence increased after the refugee crisis was in full swing. 


My imagination?  Coincidence?

Germans told to stockpile food and water for civil defence

..."The German news website Frankfurter Allgemeine (FAZ) said the new concept was set out in a 69-page German Interior Ministry document.

The document said "an attack on German territory, requiring conventional defence of the nation, is unlikely". But, it said, a major security threat to the nation in future could not be ruled out, so civil defence measures were necessary."...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37155060

Probably not very relevant to the discussion but it shows the German's may be paying attention to something in amongst recent events in Europe

Now LFU gets it. BC gets it. Deccie gets it...Why don't you get it?


I'll spell it out for you...Civil defense is an integral part of any country's defense policy. If a country, in this case Germany, is suggesting that their citizens stockpile survival items edit: as well as upgrading their conventional forces then...It might suggest "the German's may be paying attention to something in amongst recent events in Europe".

See? It's easy when you connect the dots.

Brass

[Slumba]

Here we go ..AGAIN

While we have examples of ''honour killings''which the 'end of europe' doom-merchants predict, I'll remind you of waves of immigrants that were admitted to the UK that caused 'objections' and have integrated and are now cheered when winning golds...

Same for France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Italy........

Yes, because irrelevant to daily life sports, and beheadings, decapitations, and sexual assault are equivalent. 

You are such a "we are the world" dude - why have you not considered any part of Africa or the Middle East, as a possible place to expat to?  Are you a racist, that you won't consider Ghana, which has high speed Internet and beaches?

[BC]

Now LFU gets it. BC gets it. Deccie gets it...Why don't you get it?

I'll tell you why. Because you have no military experience to base your opinions on. You simply don't have an understanding of what it is being discussed.

I'll spell it out for you...Civil defense is an integral part of any country's defense policy. If a country, in this case Germany, is suggesting that their citizens stockpile survival items edit: as well as upgrading their conventional forces then...It might suggest "the German's may be paying attention to something in amongst recent events in Europe".

See? It's easy when you connect the dots.

Brass

Brass, without your 'recent events' remarks I would agree with you regarding changes in the civil defense plans.  The civil defense or better worded preparedness changes date back to 2001..  Thoughts to revamp military equipment and forces started in 2014 and accelerated with the RU UA conflict, with a 5 year plan to increase spending for improvements.

All this has at the most very little to do with migrant issues or as a direct result of increased terrorism threats, both of which they are quite capable of handling without any changes.

[Brasscasing]

Brass, without your 'recent events' remarks I would agree with you regarding changes in the civil defense plans.  The civil defense or better worded preparedness changes date back to 2001..  Thoughts to revamp military equipment and forces started in 2014 and accelerated with the RU UA conflict, with a 5 year plan to increase spending for improvements.

All this has at the most very little to do with migrant issues or as a direct result of increased terrorism threats, both of which they are quite capable of handling without any changes.

Agreed. that's why I predefined "Probably not very relevant to the discussion" in that it may only be peripheral or even coincidental (upgrade vs. civil defense).

It was this discussion that twigged my conversation with buddy. I thought relating his view (as I remember it) here would add to the discussion.

You're closer to the pulse on this one living on the same continent. I'd probably take your word for it over a stand alone conversation even if he is a German citizen....Except if you throw in some socialist rhetoric...then it's on again.

Brass

[msmobyone]

Looking to get schooled again, I see....

If I sought education - it would be from a paid professional.

Germans told to stockpile food and water for civil defence

They have been told nothing of the sort..


''The "Concept for Civil Defence," which has not been released''..... quoting the Guardian from 20 hours ago

I raised the question of relevance of Stealth Jets in context with civil defence this is your 'answer' ..Typical Brass - deflect when outed for posting BS..

I'll spell it out for you...Civil defense is an integral part of any country's defense policy.

..and the relevance to Stealth Fighters in this context ?

See? It's easy when you connect the dots.

Dots before your eyes must be the reason why you respond - demonstrating you can't read ....

[msmobyone]

Yes, because irrelevant to daily life sports, and beheadings, decapitations, and sexual assault are equivalent. 

You are such a "we are the world" dude - why have you not considered any part of Africa or the Middle East, as a possible place to expat to?  Are you a racist, that you won't consider Ghana, which has high speed Internet and beaches?

Slumba,

 The Mayor of London was overwhelming elected by non followers of Islam - that is  - indeed the real world ..

As to the rest of your post, I think you'll probably work out that I rated it as more of an unhinged response than a serious question.

However, if you were being serious... thanks for the tip..

[Slumba]

Slumba,

 The Mayor of London was overwhelming elected by non followers of Islam - that is  - indeed the real world ..

As to the rest of your post, I think you'll probably work out that I rated it as more of an unhinged response than a serious question.

However, if you were being serious... thanks for the tip..

You just won a gold medal in red herring delivery!

[msmobyone]

You just won a gold medal in red herring delivery!

I rather thought this applied to your avoiding the point that London - a cosmopolitan city - makes the suggestion that the 'end is nigh' for Europe by the election of it's Mayor and demonstrating the bucolic attitude of a majority of the nation by voting to remain in the EU

Perhaps London should vote to leave the UK, remain in the EU and leave the rest of us to 'suffer' our stupidity ..

[Brasscasing]

If I sought education - it would be from a paid professional.

And yet here you are with me having to school you again.

They have been told nothing of the sort..

''The "Concept for Civil Defence," which has not been released''..... quoting the Guardian from 20 hours ago

BERLIN, Aug. 24 (UPI) -- The German government urged its population Wednesday to stockpile food and water in the event of a national emergency.

www.upi.com

Brass

[Slumba]

Nope..you are quoting zeroclue.com's version of the same misinfo

I note they repeat that a third party says 'there is a plan' ..

''the German government plans to tell citizens to stockpile food and water in case of an attack or catastrophe, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung newspaper reported on Sunday.''

Suggest you wait til Wednesday ..

Misinfo, yeah?  I guess Deutsche Welle is part of the misinfo scam too?

http://www.dw.com/en/inside-europe-germans-urged-to-stockpile-food-and-water/av-19502825

HINT: I was correct , you were incorrect.

[Muzh]

Misinfo, yeah?  I guess Deutsche Welle is part of the misinfo scam too?

http://www.dw.com/en/inside-europe-germans-urged-to-stockpile-food-and-water/av-19502825

HINT: I was correct , you were incorrect.

I thought they are a liberal-biased MSM?

[rambler]

To understand the context of the OP's point a little background reading might help.  Search Wikipedia for:
1. Saladin
2. Anglo Persian Oil Company
3. Algeria - French occupation
4. Iraq US Invasion


Those should allow you to focus on what happened on the Promenade des Anglais about 15 miles from where I live. And why.
85 people mowed down by a truck on Bastille Day.  I heard the gunshots. 


A man in my village lost:


His 17 year old son
His 40 year old wife
His mother and father
His parents in law


in 30 seconds. 


So a  burkini ban is imposed,  yawnnnnn.