Why Ukraine ?

[ML]

Seriously have to take issue with comments from members who suggest all Russians 'support' the Kremlin away games in Ukraine.

You are taking issue AND at the same time changing what was written.  This is intellectual dishonesty.

Comments by myself and others are usually couched in terms of 'significant majority' of Russians support their national leaders and support what those national leaders are doing with respect to invasion of Ukraine.

This support can be gauged by the popularity polls showing Putin at the top compared to any other country leader (at least I am not familiar with another who has his rating).

These polls can be believed because some are administered by a western organization (don't know the name, but Boe has referenced it a few times) that does not have an agenda to falsify the results as do some of the Russian polling outfits .

Plus support for Putin and his actions can be known by the comments that we and others have heard from Russians here in the USA and from Russians that families of our spouses know back in the FSU.

Now you and others claim you don't hear much of this from your Russian acquaintances.

There can be several reasons for this.
1) Your acquaintances just don't want  to tell you their true feelings for any number of reasons just to avoid controversy and damage friendships.
2) You have not 'pushed' them enough to reveal their true feelings.
3) I get their true feelings because I do 'push' them.  Ochka tells me that I am actually a stronger supporter of Ukraine than she is.  This is not really true, but what she means is that she will avoid bringing it up, while I do not avoid it.

Just today Ochka told me that her male relative has a best friend who grew up in Latvia of Russian descent.  They both live and work in a third country.  He is a supporter of Russia.  She said her relative just avoids talking about it to maintain the friendship.  I told her I would immediately terminate this friendship.  You cannot be friends with someone who supports his government killing the citizens of your own country.

Many people on this discussion site maintain friendships with and even are married to those who supports Russia in its killing of Ukrainian citizens.   It is inconceivable to me.

[whynotme]

Siberians may now be viewed as "Russian", but they were mixed - Russians, Ukrainians, and Germans.  If you go south of the Amur River, there is nothing but Ukrainians.  Even the village names are Ukrainian.

Bullshit. Far-Eastern settlers came from different regions. Your desire to exaggerate the role of ukrainians looks comical. It is enough they dug the Black Sea.

[whynotme]

So let me rephrase my original title:  Why are so few going to Russia/ why so many are turning to Ukraine ?

I think Russian women wouldn't miss a lot if idiots from RWD don't want to visit Russia.

[Slumba]

I understand some guys are attracted to (feel safe with) what's familiar. But to list it as a reason American men go to Ukraine is absurd in my opinion. I think guys who look for a foreign spouse aren't looking for something familiar, they can get that at home. Part of this adventure IS that there are differences.

It's your post, you did write it. Don't backpedal away from that.

FWIW my next trip to FSU is likely to be Russia.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Many people on this discussion site maintain friendships with and even are married to those who supports Russia in its killing of Ukrainian citizens.   It is inconceivable to me.

ML, it sounds like your idea of friendship would be what I consider an acquaintance.   I wouldn't end a true friendship over political leanings.  Several of my friends date back to grade school and I value them greatly.

[mhr7]

Comments by myself and others are usually couched in terms of 'significant majority' of Russians support their national leaders and support what those national leaders are doing with respect to invasion of Ukraine.

This support can be gauged by the popularity polls showing Putin at the top compared to any other country leader (at least I am not familiar with another who has his rating).

Levada polls from last year show that approximately 25% of Russians support Russian troops going into Ukraine if the fighting flares up again. 60% are against.

Don't equate support for Putin with support for war in Ukraine. It's not that simple at all.

1) Your acquaintances just don't want  to tell you their true feelings for any number of reasons just to avoid controversy and damage friendships.
2) You have not 'pushed' them enough to reveal their true feelings.

This is bullshit, What kind of dishonest, disingenuous friendships do you think those of us who spend a significant amount of time in Russia have?

[ML]

ML, it sounds like your idea of friendship would be what I consider an acquaintance.   I wouldn't end a true friendship over political leanings.  Several of my friends date back to grade school and I value them greatly.

You avoided my scenario.  It is not just political leanings regarding something as simple as left wing vs right wing.

Assume your friend killed another of your friends or a member of your family or even advocated killing them.  Would you still value them greatly ?

[LiveFromUkraine]

You avoided my scenario.  It is not just political leanings regarding something as simple as left wing vs right wing.

Assume your friend killed another of your friends or a member of your family or even advocated killing them.  Would you still value them greatly ?

I can see how the media manipulates people at home even with the freedoms we enjoy.  Why would I think it would be different in Russia where the media is state controlled? 


We went from people who think in a particular way to people killing family members.  That is quite a leap.   



Edited to add:  Are we talking about Russians believing this is a civil war?  That is entirely different to believing Russia should invade Ukraine.  I don't really know what the general belief is in Russia when it comes to Ukraine.  I assumed they believed it was a civil war.

[Boethius]

Far-Eastern settlers came from different regions. Your desire to exaggerate the role of ukrainians looks comical. It is enough they dug the Black Sea.

It is not an exaggeration, nor have I any desire to exaggerate the role of Ukrainians. 


If you wish to create scenarios in your head, fine by me.  But don't pull me into them.

[mhr7]

Edited to add:  Are we talking about Russians believing this is a civil war?  That is entirely different to believing Russia should invade Ukraine.  I don't really know what the general belief is in Russia when it comes to Ukraine.  I assumed they believed it was a civil war.

It's not easy to get a good handle on this. According to Levada, most Russians don't think there are Russian troops in Ukraine but they know that there are Russian "volunteers" there. About 50% support the "volunteers", 30 % do not and 20% don't give an opinion. Most don't think there is a war between Russia and Ukraine and, again, most would not support a full out invasion. Most Russians I know usually call it a "situation".

[LiveFromUkraine]

It's not easy to get a good handle on this. According to Levada, most Russians don't think there are Russian troops in Ukraine but they know that there are Russian "volunteers" there. About 50% support the "volunteers", 30 % do not and 20% don't give an opinion. Most don't think there is a war between Russia and Ukraine and, again, most would not support a full out invasion. Most Russians I know usually call it a "situation".

Thanks.  It sounds like I wasn't too far off the mark in my assumptions.  I'm not sure if they believe the "volunteers" are real volunteers or Russian soldiers.   


Edited to add: Sorry, I missed your comment about them not believing Russian soldiers are there. 


Anyway,  I can't blame people for thinking that if the media is claiming it.  No different to the brainwashing that happens in the good ole USofA and many other countries. 

[Larry1]

Same reason they used to send scouts to Alberta.  The dry air means the skin is usually very good.

Siberians may now be viewed as "Russian", but they were mixed - Russians, Ukrainians, and Germans.  If you go south of the Amur River, there was nothing but Ukrainians.  Even the village names were Ukrainian.

The top models today are largely not Russian-

http://www.maxim.com/women/forbes-top-earning-models-2016-8

If you go south of the Amur River there is China. But North of the Amur contains many people descended from Ukrainians. The Tsars created programs for them to colonize the sparsely populated areas of the Far East in the 19th century. They could have land to farm. I understand that they were carried to the Far East on steamships departing from the port of Odessa.

I once knew a girl from the village of Chernigovka there. The people there had the understanding that their ancestors had come there from the city of Chernigov in Ukraine.

[ML]

We went from people who think in a particular way to people killing family members.  That is quite a leap.   

You are again skirting around the obvious.

There is killing going on by the Russian Terrorists.

http://www.newsweek.com/10000-ukrainians-killed-conflict-ukraines-security-council-465084

Each of those persons killed belonged to a family.

So it is not an innocent 'think in a particular way.'  The Russian people are supporting the killing of Ukrainians who are part of families.

My wife has relatives who have been wounded but thankfully didn't die.
Her family has neighbors who have had members killed.

Maybe you would continue to be friends with those who support the killing of your friends, neighbors and family.  I wouldn't.

[Belvis]

Are we talking about Russians believing this is a civil war?  That is entirely different to believing Russia should invade Ukraine.  I don't really know what the general belief is in Russia when it comes to Ukraine.  I assumed they believed it was a civil war.

I'll try to explain the picture as I observe it.
First of all, majority of Russian does not care about Ukrainian conflict because this war is far away and only who have relatives in Ukraine feel the consequences. So ordinary folk will not catch when somebody is talking about Russia vs Ukraine war as they do not see this war or accompanied effects. By definition it is Ukrainian civil war for them.
   Second point. We know about the involvement of Russian troops into combat actions at Donbass. This fact does not make the conflict looks like Russia-Ukrainian war and taken  similar to activity of Russia (and US by the way)  in Syria. In short, special operations with limited objectives to support our allies..
   General feelings in Russia is that Russia should not invade Ukraine just to catch land, that would be pure nonsense. However Russia will hardly tolerate if Kiev start to suppress with military force  rebellion of people who we consider even not as a kin folk but the same folk separated by SU collapse.  Then it would provoke  intervention with full support from Russians, except handful of intellectuals. ML is right.

[Gator]

We have cut ties with several Russian friends here in the US because they fly the separatist flag and say the US and Ukraine are the culprits and killers. They support the invasion to "protect" the ethnic Russians. These same women are trying to secure a green card here. It disgusts me tbh.

I have heard some of the Miami Russians are a rough, uncouth crowd. 

We have several very close Russian friends who are more enlightened and realize what is really happening. They do not criticize Russia, but remain quiet on the matter. 

Our experience in Tampa. 

[Gator]

1) Your acquaintances just don't want  to tell you their true feelings for any number of reasons just to avoid controversy and damage friendships.
2) You have not 'pushed' them enough to reveal their true feelings.
3) I get their true feelings because I do 'push' them.  Ochka tells me that I am actually a stronger supporter of Ukraine than she is.  This is not really true, but what she means is that she will avoid bringing it up, while I do not avoid it.
 

I can believe it based on the avoidance if not indifference I sense when conversing with Ukrainians and Russians in my area.   Seriously, isn't it better to avoid the discussion rather than push an acquaintance to the point of damaging the relationship.  You may be bumping into these people about town for the next 10-15 years. 

So that Occhka can better understand you, maybe it is time you told Ochka about your family and the never ending feud they had with another family.   Show her the photo of your grandfather as a young lad holding his revolver (standing far right, hatless).   In this way, she will understand the defiance that flows through your blood. 

[jone]

I'll try to explain the picture as I observe it.
First of all, majority of Russian does not care about Ukrainian conflict because this war is far away and only who have relatives in Ukraine feel the consequences. So ordinary folk will not catch when somebody is talking about Russia vs Ukraine war as they do not see this war or accompanied effects. By definition it is Ukrainian civil war for them.
   Second point. We know about the involvement of Russian troops into combat actions at Donbass. This fact does not make the conflict looks like Russia-Ukrainian war and taken  similar to activity of Russia (and US by the way)  in Syria. In short, special operations with limited objectives to support our allies..
   General feelings in Russia is that Russia should not invade Ukraine just to catch land, that would be pure nonsense. However Russia will hardly tolerate if Kiev start to suppress with military force  rebellion of people who we consider even not as a kin folk but the same folk separated by SU collapse.  Then it would provoke  intervention with full support from Russians, except handful of intellectuals. ML is right.

One of the things that bother me about the Russian intervention is the lack of honor paid to the Russian soldiers who went to Ukraine and died.  Your lack of insight/callous attitude about the deaths of many of your countrymen leads me to again believe that you are a representative of your government. 

Sure, Ivan Sixpack doesn't think daily about Ukraine.  But your country has has engaged in so much propaganda about Ukraine and Ukrainians that I regularly see posts on social networking that Ukrainians are substandard.   And FYI, many people in Western Russia have relatives and friends in Ukraine.

[Larry1]

So that Occhka can better understand you, maybe it is time you told Ochka about your family and the never ending feud they had with another family.   Show her the photo of your grandfather as a young lad holding his revolver (standing far right, hatless).   In this way, she will understand the defiance that flows through your blood. 

Always good to see a photo of Devil Anse Hatfield (not ML's grandfather, but the bearded fellow on the left)

[Gator]

Always good to see a photo of Devil Anse Hatfield (not ML's grandfather, but the bearded fellow on the left)

Wonder what their opinion is regarding gun control.....

[Larry1]

Wonder what their opinion is regarding gun control.....

That proper control of the gun leads to the ability to hit McCoys.

[LiveFromUkraine]

You are again skirting around the obvious.

There is killing going on by the Russian Terrorists.

http://www.newsweek.com/10000-ukrainians-killed-conflict-ukraines-security-council-465084

Each of those persons killed belonged to a family.

So it is not an innocent 'think in a particular way.'  The Russian people are supporting the killing of Ukrainians who are part of families.

My wife has relatives who have been wounded but thankfully didn't die.
Her family has neighbors who have had members killed.

Maybe you would continue to be friends with those who support the killing of your friends, neighbors and family.  I wouldn't.

I'll have to agree to disagree. 


Even after reading Belvis' post (thanks for the clarification Belvis), I don't believe the average Russian is hoping for Ukrainians to die.  Same as I don't believe most Americans wanted the innocent people to die in the many wars, regime changes and drone attacks.   I don't doubt that many do hate Americans for American politics and Russians for Russian politics.

I have had friends who were for the Iraqi war.   Many innocent people died in that war.  I'm still friends with them even if I disagreed.


I can't say I would or wouldn't feel the same if my family was killed or hurt due to something like this.  It's easy to say no, but we really don't know until it happens.  I am sorry to hear about Ochka's family and friends.  I do try and see the innocent people that are caught up in these wars.  For that very reason, I have been very clear in being against many of our own government's foreign policy when it comes to this sort of behavior. 

[CaptB]

I give up.


 




Capt B

[Boethius]

All threads drift CaptB. But, I think you got your answer.

[Patagonie]

I'll try to explain the picture as I observe it.
First of all, majority of Russian does not care about Ukrainian conflict because this war is far away and only who have relatives in Ukraine feel the consequences. So ordinary folk will not catch when somebody is talking about Russia vs Ukraine war as they do not see this war or accompanied effects. By definition it is Ukrainian civil war for them.
   Second point. We know about the involvement of Russian troops into combat actions at Donbass. This fact does not make the conflict looks like Russia-Ukrainian war and taken  similar to activity of Russia (and US by the way)  in Syria. In short, special operations with limited objectives to support our allies..
   General feelings in Russia is that Russia should not invade Ukraine just to catch land, that would be pure nonsense. However Russia will hardly tolerate if Kiev start to suppress with military force  rebellion of people who we consider even not as a kin folk but the same folk separated by SU collapse.  Then it would provoke  intervention with full support from Russians, except handful of intellectuals. ML is right.

Typical Kremlin bullshit.
You need to understand that RUssia has four armies : the air force, the naval forces, the land forces and the propangada (psychological) forces.
You are a victime of the fourth but you don't know it.
You don't have any allies in the dombass, you have political supporters yes, you pay some locals, mercenaries, criminals all flanked by officials russian forces (military or FSB), yes. 
The old song, "we are locally oppressed please russia motherland helps us" had been played many time since 1956, you really need to wake up.

[mhr7]

Typical Kremlin bullshit.
You need to understand that RUssia has four armies : the air force, the naval forces, the land forces and the propangada (psychological) forces.
You are a victime of the fourth but you don't know it.
You don't have any allies in the dombass, you have political supporters yes, you pay some locals, mercenaries, criminals all flanked by officials russian forces (military or FSB), yes. 
The old song, "we are locally oppressed please russia motherland helps us" had been played many time since 1956, you really need to wake up.

Leadership in Donbass definitely comes from Russia.