Language, Culture, and Other Issues

[papakota]

As for "a region rather than a country" - I guess that, for you, everything on the eastern side of the Adriatic Sea must still be called Yugoslavia.  Right?

Yugoslavia was a purely political term and thus it died with the end of Yugoslavia as a country. On the other hand, when people say Russia, they're not necessarily talking about Russian Federation proper. They mean Russian language and culture and it stretches from Baltic states to Kazakhstan. Русский мир (Russian world). If you asked my great grandfather in Kiev hundred years ago about Ukraine and its language, he wouldn't have known what you were talking about. 
Yes, he was born in 1880 in Kiev, but he only spoke Russian and was a citizen of a Russian Empire. It's only in early Stalin's time (late 1920's) when Ukrainian language became somewhat widespread among Ukraine's population. It was more of a political thing. Stalin said that there's nothing international, unless there's national. That's why he tried to promote everything national like languages etc. There was a Lenin-Trotskiy doctrine of cosmopolitan approach. And Stalin had a nationalistic approach. So after Lenin's death in 1924 Stalin turned things around towards nationalism. Later it became also somewhat antisemitic, especially in early 1950's.
So my grandma who was born in Kiev in 1918 had to study in Ukrainian language at school. Though she spoke only Russian at home. Even now, Poroshenko's and Timoshenko's native language is Russian. Though they try only to speak Ukrainian in public. Only in Western Ukraine people speak Ukrainian at home. About 2/3 of Ukrainians usually speak Russian.

[jone]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Baltics clearly had their own cultures and languages.  St. Petersburg may be only 60 Kilometers from Narva, but knowing many of the Baltic people, as I do, they would rather speak their own languages and have their own government before coming under Russia rule again.  Once the Soviet Union broke up and the Baltics were no longer under rule from Moscow, the forced language lessons and educational system in Russian was quickly supplanted by Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian. 

Judging by your post, you think, as Putin says, that Ukraine is not really a country and should be Russia's for the taking.  Funny thing, if that's the case, why is not the country rolling over and welcoming Russian control.  Even Krim is beginning to think it was a bad deal to be forcibly taken over by Russia.

[Bounder]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Baltics clearly had their own cultures and languages.  St. Petersburg may be only 60 Kilometers from Narva, but knowing many of the Baltic people, as I do, they would rather speak their own languages and have their own government before coming under Russia rule again.  Once the Soviet Union broke up and the Baltics were no longer under rule from Moscow, the forced language lessons and educational system in Russian was quickly supplanted by Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian. 

Judging by your post, you think, as Putin says, that Ukraine is not really a country and should be Russia's for the taking.  Funny thing, if that's the case, why is not the country rolling over and welcoming Russian control.  Even Krim is beginning to think it was a bad deal to be forcibly taken over by Russia.

Jone, I may be wrong, but I understood papakota as referring to ethnic Russian minorities outside of Russia, including in the Baltic states.

I think I'll reserve comment on Ukraine more generally....

[msmob]

Yugoslavia was a purely political term and thus it died with the end of Yugoslavia as a country. On the other hand, when people say Russia, they're not necessarily talking about Russian Federation proper. They mean Russian language and culture and it stretches from Baltic states to Kazakhstan. Русский мир (Russian world). If you asked my great grandfather in Kiev hundred years ago about Ukraine and its language, he wouldn't have known what you were talking about. 

Papakota


That your G-g Grandad didn't know about Ukrainian culture / language is hardly something to use as an example ..I mean you did know that the language was banned by successive 'occupiers' ..Russians / Poles..?


Wiki warning !


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Ukrainian_language_bans


Poland didn't exist for 123 years under the Russian Empire ..






 

It's only in early Stalin's time (late 1920's) when Ukrainian language became somewhat widespread among Ukraine's population. It was more of a political thing. Stalin said that there's nothing international, unless there's national. That's why he tried to promote everything national like languages etc. There was a Lenin-Trotskiy doctrine of cosmopolitan approach. And Stalin had a nationalistic approach. So after Lenin's death in 1924 Stalin turned things around towards nationalism. Later it became also somewhat antisemitic, especially in early 1950's.
So my grandma who was born in Kiev in 1918 had to study in Ukrainian language at school. Though she spoke only Russian at home. Even now, Poroshenko's and Timoshenko's native language is Russian. Though they try only to speak Ukrainian in public. Only in Western Ukraine people speak Ukrainian at home. About 2/3 of Ukrainians usually speak Russian.

Papakota..I'm afraid I have to take issue with some of your history:


As can be seen from the Wiki link, Moscow has overseen several attempts to put down the language - be it Imperial or Soviet


Russian is an offshoot of a Slavic language and Ukrainian is much closer to other Slavic languages such as Czech / Serbian..


Finally, since 'independence' in '91 Schools promoted the teaching of Ukrainian and this has manifested itself in it's much wider use .. There was no 'wrong' associated with speaking Russian - except perhaps in the eyes of intolerant folk in W.Ukraine..and TV debates switch between the languages;


I have noted a sense of national pride in younger people to speak in Ukrainian and I am now careful to say Dyakuyu - rather than Spasibo - as I was increasingly being 'corrected' ..to the point I prefer to speak in English, there, now.


Those wanting to get on in govt / commerce in Kyiiv , swiftly learnt Ukrainian


Naturally, those brought up in the Soviet era spoke Russian - it was the linga franca - the opposite is true, now

[msmob]

  Even Krim is beginning to think it was a bad deal to be forcibly taken over by Russia.

??


Jone - as much as I abhor the stunt pulled - I readily admit the VAST majority of folk on the peninsula felt Russian ...whilst some frustration might be evident - in adapting / not really wanting to adapt - as Crimea had it's own autonomous assembly and the number of Russian service personnel  - made it seem different - I think you'll find that most folk would rather 'put up' with Russification - than 'go back'


Where did you read such info - Ukrainian media ?

[jone]

 I don't doubt that the majority would say that.  And I will defer to more learned members than I am.  Perhaps CalMissile or The Natural would be willing to contribute.  Cal's wife owns property in Krim and The Natural was there two months ago with his family.  They would have more current information than I would.

I do not read Ukrainian media any more.

[ML]

Only in Western Ukraine people speak Ukrainian at home.

My wife and her family from Kyiv area which is not Western Ukraine.

They speak ONLY Ukrainian at home.

But at school and university, she studied both Ukrainian and Russian and is fluent in both.  She refused to speak in Russian in Kyiv, even before the invasion by Russian terrorists.

[JayH]

  Only in Western Ukraine people speak Ukrainian at home. About 2/3 of Ukrainians usually speak Russian.

You have made some extremely ignorant comments about Ukraine and Ukrainians in various threads -recently and over a period of time.

This one illustrates how little you know of Ukraine today --your comment above is simply untrue. It is typical of myths Russia attempts to perpetrate.

Others have commented about language in specific areas - and I will add central to eastern Ukrainian cities where it is not unusual  for people to speak Ukrainian.

In fact- I was surprised myself quite often when I have learnt this. In areas that are considered traditionally Russian speaking I have learnt that Ukrainian is often spoken --in particular with parents .

Until the language issues arose more recently I had not paid much attention to it -- but since 2014 I have taken particular notice and I have often asked people about it-- and that includes in eastern Ukraine.

I also know of families that now make a major point of speaking Ukrainian in the first instance   and have changed since the invasion by Russia of Ukraine in 2014.

Many here on the forums ( and in news etc) insist on talking about Ukraine in the way it was--not as it is today . There has been a tremendous rise in Ukrainian nationalism  and pride in Ukraine since the Maidan revolution  that is widespread across all of Ukraine ( or at least in areas not occupied by the Russian military) .

Ukraine is a work in progress-that is true --but there are many positives.

Interesting link from today-
THE POSITION OF THE UKRAINIAN LANGUAGE IN UANET - STUDY

Ukrainian activist Stanislav Svidlov  explored the  use of Ukrainian and Russian languages in the Ukrainian segment of the Internet among users of Facebook, Ukrainian manufacturers and compared using the ratio of national and Russian language in Ukraine and the Baltic countries. According to a survey among 1,000 most visited Ukrainian sites ( statistics  Factum Group) Russian language still dominates with a share of 66.8%. Ukrainian-sites up 11%, and a bilingual version with 22.2%.

For the isolation and analysis of websites only Ukrainian activist took three ratings - top.bigmir.net, top.i.ua and liveinternet.ru. Thus, the rating "Bigmir" Ukrainian language uses 13.2% of sites in two languages - 28.8%, Russian - 58%. According to the portal top.i.ua: 28% of sites have Ukrainian version two languages with 20% and 52% use Russian. Over rated liveinternet.ru Ukrainian-sites up 14% bilingual - 24.8%, and Russian - 61.2%.

Compared to  last year's study , the share of Russian sites among the top 250 Ukrainian on average decreased by 4.8% percent. Among the Ukrainian sites .ua domain zone is dominated by top.bigmir.net and it is 69.6% for top.i.ua - 61,2%, for liveinternet.ru - 62,8%.


http://www.uamodna.com/articles/stanovysche-ukrayinsjkoyi-movy-v-uaneti-doslidzhennya/

Ukraine imposes language quotas for radio playlists

New rules have come into force requiring Ukraine's radio stations to play a quota of Ukrainian-language songs each day, in a move designed to discourage "separatist moods".
At least a quarter of a radio station's daily playlist will have to be in Ukrainian from now on, rising to 30% in 12 months' time and 35% a year after that, the Ukrayinska Pravda website reports. The law also requires TV and radio broadcasters to ensure 60% of programmes such as news and analysis are in Ukrainian.
While Ukrainian is the country's official language, almost everyone can speak Russian and about a third of the population consider it their native tongue. In 2012, a survey of prime-time radio found that only 3.4% of the songs being played were in Ukrainian.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-37908828

[JayH]

??


Jone - as much as I abhor the stunt pulled - I readily admit the VAST majority of folk on the peninsula felt Russian ...whilst some frustration might be evident - in adapting / not really wanting to adapt - as Crimea had it's own autonomous assembly and the number of Russian service personnel  - made it seem different - I think you'll find that most folk would rather 'put up' with Russification - than 'go back'


Where did you read such info - Ukrainian media ?

The idea that  there was overwhelming support for joining Russia prior to the invasion is another myth that gets constantly repeated.
I have pointed that out repeatedly over several years-- and there is evidence of polls that support my comments.

The part you and many ger confused is this-- if you ask people if that want 2 or 3 times as much in social welfare handouts--then the answer will be yes. If you had qualified that by asking-- would your answer be the same if your costs rose by 2/3 times also-- the answer would probably be different!
That is essentially the mistake a lot of polls in eastern Ukraine a& Crimea made-- and created a distortion in many polls.

[msmob]

The idea that  there was overwhelming support for joining Russia prior to the invasion is another myth that gets constantly repeated.
I have pointed that out repeatedly over several years-- and there is evidence of polls that support my comments.

JayH,


I am WELL aware that in polls before Maidan and 'anti-Maidan' kicked off and the subsequent polarisation - the percentage of Crimeans favouring a return to Russia wasn't that high - autonomy seemed OK... BUT ..All that changed - as Moscow was only to[o spelling ] quick to suggest what was happening in Kyiv meant risk for Crimea... 

The part you and many ger confused i

In no way am I 'confused' ... I have quoted the same polls ..  Ukraine fractured


I simply do not believe 97 percent voted i favour in Crimea - that's the sort of number Lukashouldgo claims in Belarus when he 'wins' - but it was a sizeable majority who were more than happy to see Russian service personnel take over control

I haven't been to Crimea since the 'change-over', but I constantly 'chew the fat' with folks who have or live there or transit the peninsula on their way to Kherson from Sochi - using the ferry service, rather than going through the 'republics' of 'novorossiya' ...

Sure, tourism is down - but it's still very much '' a price worth paying' for the majority of the ethnic Russians

[papakota]

msmob,
In a rural areas people spoke Ukrainian language, but not in cities. I'm not discussing the reasons behind it, just the facts of life. I don't see why my family can't serve as an example. Don't say silly things about Moscow always being opposed to Ukrainian language. My grandma had absolutely no desire to learn in Ukrainian at school, but she had no choice in late 1920's. Stalin was a nationalist and therefore he promoted nationalism everywhere.
I myself learned Ukrainian though not systematically, mostly by watching their TV (Shuster LIVE). I understand 90% of what they say in Ukrainian. So what? I don't know, maybe now it's different in Kiev. I was in Kiev in summer 2013 and back then everybody spoke Russian there with very, very, very few exceptions. I agree that one must know well Ukrainian to live in Ukraine, since it's an official language. It's one of the major reasons I'm not there. Only in Western Ukraine I spoke Ukrainian. In Uzhgorod, for example. But even there usually people spoke Russian to me.

ML
Maybe they're from Kiev region (oblast). If so, then yes, lots of people speak Ukrainian there.

JayH,
You're right! Really... What do I know about Russia and Ukraine? I should ask someone in Australia to know. My mom was born in Kiev, I was in Ukraine 3 times (about 7 months), I understand about 90% of Ukrainian language. Not to mention my grandpa being a young officer defended Ukraine as part of USSR in WWII (he was also wounded in summer 1941 and hardly saved my mom and grandma from Nazis in Kiev).

What I don't understand though is what's the difference which language people would speak in Ukraine for English speakers? Seems like some of you try to promote Ukrainian language in Ukraine? What for? And frankly, I don't see a connection between the goals of Maidan and a language issue. It's been over 2 years since then and I don't see any progress in the fight against corruption in Ukraine. And European future seems to be even further away now than in Yanukovitch's times and EU officials are afraid to allow Ukrainians to visit Schengen area visa-free. Citizens of Moldova can do that without maidans and confrontation with Russia. Holland is blocking signing of Association treaty, unless they get guarantees that Ukraine won't join EU. Even if Ukraine had only Russian as its official language, it still could join EU or even NATO. There's no law that prohibits use of Russian language in those structures, so what the fuss is about?
I'm 200% sure that unless Ukraine comes to terms with Russia, it won't get even an inch closer to EU membership (let alone NATO). Europeans won't risk a major confrontation with Russia because of Ukraine (not to mention that Europe is much dependent on Russian gas). As of now Ukraine has a better chance of becoming a 51st state of the US than EU member state. But something tells me that US doesn't need Ukraine as part of it.
Being on Corruption Index between Madagascar and Cameroon Ukraine so far only has a chance to join maybe an African Union. Or you think that corruption level in UA is also a fault of Russian language and Putin regime?
As they say in Russian - Нечего на зеркало пенять, коль рожа крива.

[BillyB]

Only in Western Ukraine people speak Ukrainian at home. About 2/3 of Ukrainians usually speak Russian.

Take away the "only" and you're closer to being right. Western Ukrainians are more patriotic about their country than anywhere else in the country. One will be looked down upon if they're speaking Russian in western Ukraine. The more east one goes, they will find more and more people speaking Russian as their primary language. In Kiev, it can go either way. I remember my MIL walking into a clothing store and asking a man who worked there something in Ukrainian. He replied in Russian. She turned around and walked out.

[JayH]

JayH,
You're right! Really... What do I know about Russia and Ukraine? I should ask someone in Australia to know. My mom was born in Kiev, I was in Ukraine 3 times (about 7 months), I understand about 90% of Ukrainian language. Not to mention my grandpa being a young officer defended Ukraine as part of USSR in WWII (he was also wounded in summer 1941 and hardly saved my mom and grandma from Nazis in Kiev).

What I don't understand though is what's the difference which language people would speak in Ukraine for English speakers? Seems like some of you try to promote Ukrainian language in Ukraine? What for? And frankly, I don't see a connection between the goals of Maidan and a language issue. It's been over 2 years since then and I don't see any progress in the fight against corruption in Ukraine. And a European future seems to be even further away now than in Yanukovitch's times and EU officials are afraid now to even allow Ukrainians to visit Schengen area visa-free. Even citizens of Moldova can do that without maidans and confrontation with Russia. Holland is blocking even signing of Association treaty, unless they get guarantees that Ukraine won't join EU. Even if Ukraine had only Russian as its official language, it still could join EU or even NATO. There's no law that prohibits use of Russian language in those structures, so what the fuss is about?
I'm 200% sure that unless Ukraine comes to terms with Russia, it won't get even an inch closer to EU membership (let alone NATO). Europeans won't risk a major confrontation with Russia because of Ukraine (not to mention that Europe is much dependent on Russian gas). As of now Ukraine has a better chance of becoming a 51st state of the US than EU member state. But something tells me that US doesn't need Ukraine as part of it.
Being on Corruption Index between Madagascar and Cameroon Ukraine so far only has a chance to join maybe an African Union. Or you think that corruption level in UA is also a fault of Russian language and Putin regime?
As they say in Russian - Нечего на зеркало пенять, коль рожа крива.

You quote you family connections  as  giving you a greater insight  -- but you also stated you spent a few months there 10 years ago-- and a visit in 2013.  You ask how would I know better-- well-- for a start-- I have spent a lot more time in well over 10 times the number of your visits you have made  -- and that is since 2010 . I have also been in many places all over Ukraine including Crimea.
 
  Personally - originally I only attempted to learn Russian as i saw that more people spoke that and I would prefer that the system of languages that was in place stayed. However - I also recognise that Ukrainians should decide this -not me ! Nor you or anyone in Russia.

 Your other comments-
are just Russian crap comments that d highlights your degree of ignorance( & arrogance) on Ukraine today.You spew the Russian trolls garbage of warped interpretation of facts that is often just plain wrong.

[msmob]

I am more likely to find a pig that can fly than finding any genuine women from EM for marriage!

,,,and you base that conclusion on ?


Now it may not be the same EM I knew ...but I personally know couples that have met and married and even my ex-wife to be headed off there to find a more suitable mate..


When I last looked  - I DID see lots of faces that hadn't changed in 10 plus years and ages that hadn't kept up with time - but I wonder how any site can cope with men / ladies who can't even be honest about how they look / how old they are




I don't think EM attracts more insincere ladies than other sites - I just don't think it is where it's at any more..

[papakota]

Take away the "only" and you're closer to being right. Western Ukrainians are more patriotic about their country than anywhere else in the country. One will be looked down upon if they're speaking Russian in western Ukraine. The more east one goes, they will find more and more people speaking Russian as their primary language. In Kiev, it can go either way. I remember my MIL walking into a clothing store and asking a man who worked there something in Ukrainian. He replied in Russian. She turned around and walked out.

What for you is patriotic, for me is nationalistic. What difference does it make which language a person speaks? Lenin and Nicholas the Second both spoke Russian, so what? Both Hitler and Marx spoke German. Savik Shuster speaks Russian. Language is nothing but a communication tool for your thoughts. It has nothing to do with who you are and what's inside of you.

In Uzhgorod you can speak Russian fine and there's no problem with that. And it's the most western place in Ukraine. At least that's how it was back in 2013. I'm not against Ukrainian language, I just don't understand why it makes any difference, especially in a context of English speakers wanting to marry a woman from the former Soviet Union.

[papakota]

JayH,
You're a funny guy! As a native Russian speaker I can visit Ukraine for a month and would know more about it than someone who only speaks English and spends there a whole year. Let alone that I know some Ukrainian (something that almost no one knows here in Russia).
I put politics aside (leave it beyond the brackets, if you will). I only see the facts. And all the people from the West and Georgia who came to work in Ukraine, not working there anymore. That includes Saakashvili, Zguladze, Abramavichus and Yaresko. They called it quits 'cos they had realized that nothing was changing. And Jo Biden said exactly what I'm saying here (in regards to reforms in Ukraine). A country with such a level of corruption can never be free and democratic. And that's the best indicator. All the rest is void words.

[msmob]

msmob,
In a rural areas people spoke Ukrainian language, but not in cities. I'm not discussing the reasons behind it, just the facts of life.

Sighs - please, don't try to tell me that I don't know the difference between UA/ RU I have been going to UA on and off for 14 years and have a UK mate married to a lady from Kherson - now living just outside Kyiv. I dated a RU speaking journalist -- who realised it would be wise to learn UA and was trying hard in 2002- now fluent - of course  It is just a prevalent - if not more so in Kyiv, now

[/size][size=78%]I don't see why my family can't serve as an example. Don't say silly things about Moscow always being opposed to Ukrainian language.[/size]

[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Don't put words in my mouth -..I pointed out serial episodes of Moscow putting down a language that so many Russian speakers seem to think [/size][size=78%][/size]appeared[size=78%][/size][size=78%] from nowhere - yet Russian is but an offshoot of the same root. BTW my 'info' is from a Russian [/size]Professor[size=78%] in Language [/size]Methodology[size=78%] -..Unlike too many Russians who laugh on hearing UA language - thinking it 'bucolic' - she always [/size]patiently[size=78%] [/size]explained[size=78%] the error.[/size][size=78%]



[/size]

[/size]
[/size][size=78%] My grandma had absolutely no desire to learn in Ukrainian at school, but she had no choice in late 1920's. Stalin was a nationalist and therefore he promoted nationalism everywhere. [/size]

[/size]
[/size][size=78%]I had no desire to learn Irish at school - as my family were eth. British ...Stalin;s 'nationalism' extended to being part of the the re-integration of Kyiv into the USSR - Kyiv having been free of Moscow's 'yolk' - and as leader the H[/size][/size]olodomor against eth, Ukrainian people...[size=78%]

http://www.holodomorct.org/history.html

[/size]

I myself learned Ukrainian though not systematically, mostly by watching their TV (Shuster LIVE). I understand 90% of what they say in Ukrainian. So what?

Not that hard to learn for a Slavic speaker - in the same way - I studied Latin and can get by in French, Italian,Spanish and even Romanian - with subtitles - Well done - you made the effort.


[/size]

 I don't know, maybe now it's different in Kiev. I was in Kiev in summer 2013 and back then everybody spoke Russian there with very, very, very few exceptions. I agree that one must know well Ukrainian to live in Ukraine, since it's an official language. It's one of the major reasons I'm not there. Only in Western Ukraine I spoke Ukrainian. In Uzhgorod, for example. But even there usually people spoke Russian to me.

Deeper sigh


Sure they can speak Russian - for most people over 30 - it was the linga franca- there is no stigma in most of UA to speak in Russian. Younger people tend to speak in UA fist in Kyiv - which if you're going there - you'll know - they like you to spell it Kyiv....


[/size]

ML
Maybe they're from Kiev region (oblast). If so, then yes, lots of people speak Ukrainian there.

Even in Eastern Ukraine - the kids and young adults know Ukrainian - There were lots of local volunteers for the Poland -Ukraine Euro 2012 football tournament - they could more easily made themselves understood with the Poles - again it was taught in schools and it was useful to know - as you say - it was the national language. Whilst in would not be so widely spoken in the streets - it is not so strange to hear it in cities to the east of Kyiv and south


Although this was an 'old; political map - it largely reflected the strength of where Russian is more frequent







[/size]

JayH,
You're right! Really... What do I know about Russia and Ukraine? I should ask someone in Australia to know. My mom was born in Kiev, I was in Ukraine 3 times (about 7 months), I understand about 90% of Ukrainian language. Not to mention my grandpa being a young officer defended Ukraine as part of USSR in WWII (he was also wounded in summer 1941 and hardly saved my mom and grandma from Nazis in Kiev).

My kids are born of parents from the island of Ireland - but know little of the real -undercurrents there - so what does your statement prove?


[/size]

What I don't understand though is what's the difference which language people would speak in Ukraine for English speakers? Seems like some of you try to promote Ukrainian language in Ukraine? What for? And frankly, I don't see a connection between the goals of Maidan and a language issue. It's been over 2 years since then and I don't see any progress in the fight against corruption in Ukraine.

A lot of the fissures are due to ethnicity deciding whether you believe Yanu was only pushed by pro westerners- even though his own poltical party disowned him, too - there has been a near total polarisation on ethnic grounds:(


[/size]

And European future seems to be even further away now than in Yanukovitch's times and EU officials are afraid to allow Ukrainians to visit Schengen area visa-free.

It is interesting the reasoning you apply..For a state to be close to joining the EU or even getting visa free travel - they need to be politically and economically stable - a strong legislative system. Parts of UA have civil war and the govt. cannot effectively control it's own borders..so OF COURSE - freedom of movement is unlikely


If you can't appreciate this suits the Kremlin - who are fond of controllable 'unfinished wars' - I don't think you'll 'get' why some  westerners feel strongly - esp. those who have seen the games those seeking more / less Moscow influence have played.


Now we see more 'interesting' - and give-away - viewpoints:


[/size]

Citizens of Moldova can do that without maidans and confrontation with Russia.

Moldova has had years of corruption - not helped by a west leaning corrupt leader - the pendulum is swinging towards his long-term opponent - a firm fav of Moscow. There are better non-aligned candidates who aren't as well 'funded' / sponsored...


[/size]

Holland is blocking signing of Association treaty, unless they get guarantees that Ukraine won't join EU.

The Dutch are simply fed up with expansion into nations who are poor and want to control immigration . It is -largely - nothing anti- Ukrainian - perse


[/size]

Even if Ukraine had only Russian as its official language, it still could join EU or even NATO. There's no law that prohibits use of Russian language in those structures, so what the fuss is about?

UA cannot join NATO whilst unstable - I wonder who seeks to prolong instability? That a maj. of Ukrainians seek NATO membership - this was never an agenda until Crimea - should not be lost on us all.


[/size]

I'm 200% sure that unless Ukraine comes to terms with Russia, it won't get even an inch closer to EU membership (let alone NATO). Europeans won't risk a major confrontation with Russia because of Ukraine (not to mention that Europe is much dependent on Russian gas). As of now Ukraine has a better chance of becoming a 51st state of the US than EU member state. But something tells me that US doesn't need Ukraine as part of it.
Being on Corruption Index between Madagascar and Cameroon Ukraine so far only has a chance to join maybe an African Union. Or you think that corruption level in UA is also a fault of Russian language and Putin regime?
As they say in Russian - Нечего на зеркало пенять, коль рожа крива.

Papakota


Corruption isn't / wasn't an issue in Eastern Ukraine ?  / Crimea ? Hmmm


Again, the simple question you will avoid - is which nation has broken the Budapest Memorandum and militarily got involved on the sovereign territory of Ukraine - facilitating take-overs o govt institutions ?


That nation knows the criteria for EU membership and knows UA cannot fulfil them with semi frozen conflicts


You post like a Russian who is extremely selective about history and seems to think Kyiv owes Moscow some debt of gratitude.


For all this ... It will not matter a jot - if a couple want to make a life together outside Ukraine / Russia -n the same way - my kids didn't have to grow up in an environment that frowned on a Catholic( nationalist )  marrying a Protestant ( generally pro British stance on Ireland)


Atip - don't get involved in that crap of trying to understand your families history - unless you are prepared to hear some unpalatable home-truths


The Brits were no Angels in Ireland and planted Brits in Ireland in the same way Russia imported ethnic Russians in Crimea and Ukraine - and 'exported' the locals.


Now we are are reaping what was sown.






















 

[BillyB]

What for you is patriotic, for me is nationalistic. What difference does it make which language a person speaks? Lenin and Nicholas the Second both spoke Russian, so what? Both Hitler and Marx spoke German. Savik Shuster speaks Russian. Language is nothing but a communication tool for your thoughts. It has nothing to do with who you are and what's inside of you.

After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, I doubt it would be popular for anybody speaking Japanese in America. Many Ukrainians know Russian but after Russia attacked their country, I'm sure Russian is spoken less in Ukraine. Continuing to use the language of the guy kicking your ass as your primary language isn't too bright.

[papakota]

msmob,
I didn't say my grandma had to learn Ukrainian. She had to study IN UKRAINIAN. It's two totally different things.

You know, I don't want to get into a long political debate. It's a forum about dating Russian women and not about Holodomor and the reasons behind it.

I don't care what language speak Ukrainian citizens, whether it's Ukrainian, Russian or Yiddish. Why would I care? They can speak any language they want, even Vietnamese for all I care. I don't know why we're discussing it.

I don't know how Ukraine would solve its current issues to join EU or at least to get a visa-free travel. I've been personally having a visa-free travel to all Europe, incl. the UK for the 26 years already. That didn't get me far in my life. Doesn't seem like Ukrainians have lots of disposable income to afford traveling to Europe anyway.

Who cares what reasons the Dutch have. The fact is that they stopped Ukraine from having a chance to even approach the possibility of joining the EU process. 'cos if Ukraine can't get at least an association status, it won't get any further on its road to a full EU membership.

You try to pull me into this whole political argument and I try to distance myself from it, can't you see?

[papakota]

After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, I doubt it would be popular for anybody speaking Japanese in America. Many Ukrainians know Russian but after Russia attacked their country, I'm sure Russian is spoken less in Ukraine. Continuing to use the language of the guy kicking your ass as your primary language isn't too bright.

I was in Ukraine in 2005 and even back then there was a heated debate in Ukraine about a status of Russian language. Americans speak English 'cos English is their mother tongue. It has nothing to do with Japan, China or Zimbabwe. My mother tongue is Russian, so I speak it. People in Ukraine speak Russian as their first language too. Russian is not foreign to them. Japanese is a foreign language in the US. Of course, sometimes people get used to a new language due to their ideological desire. So was the case with Hebrew in Palestine and then after 1948 in Israel. Jews came to Palestine (Israel) and had to learn a new language (Hebrew) because of their Zionist ideology. But they WANTED TO LEARN HEBREW. Russian speakers in Ukraine DO NOT WANT to learn Ukrainian. That's why there's a conflict in Ukraine. If all Russian speakers in Ukraine wanted their children to become speakers of Ukrainian, there wouldn't be a conflict in the first place. Nowadays, when an American Jew immigrates to Israel, he must learn Hebrew in Israel, but that person is an IMMIGRANT (same as Mexicans in the US). But Russian speakers in Ukraine aren't immigrants. They are the natives. So why do they have to learn a language that is foreign to them? Why to invent the wheel? In Ukraine they can make two languages official - both Russian and Ukrainian. So everybody will be happy. Why is it a problem I don't understand? In Quebec people speak French and in BC people speak English and there's no civil war in Canada last time I checked.

[BillyB]

In Ukraine they can make two languages official - both Russian and Ukrainian. So everybody will be happy. Why is it a problem I don't understand?

I told you why. Now you'll just have to go to Western Ukraine to understand why if you insist on speaking Russian, you won't be received well. I've seen memorials of soldiers set up in the middle of Ukrainian towns who died at the hands of Russia. It's best not to adopt the language of those who are trying to kill or control you.

[Anotherkiwi]

...Russian speakers in Ukraine DO NOT WANT to learn Ukrainian. That's why there's a conflict in Ukraine. If all Russian speakers in Ukraine wanted their children to become speakers of Ukrainian, there wouldn't be a conflict in the first place.

What utter crap!  The conflict is purely and simply because Russia illegally annexed Crimea, then illegally invaded eastern Ukraine under the guise of "assisting the local patriots."

Nowadays, when an American Jew immigrates to Israel, he must learn Hebrew in Israel, but that person is an IMMIGRANT (same as Mexicans in the US). But Russian speakers in Ukraine aren't immigrants. They are the natives. So why do they have to learn a language that is foreign to them?

They don't.  I have friends in Ukraine whose first language is Russian, and they feel no compulsion to learn Ukrainian - nor do they feel that they were ever discriminated against simply because of the language they spoke (one of Putin's lies justifying the invasion).  However, they love their country enough to have since learnt Ukrainian.

Why to invent the wheel? In Ukraine they can make two languages official - both Russian and Ukrainian. So everybody will be happy. Why is it a problem I don't understand? In Quebec people speak French and in BC people speak English and there's no civil war in Canada last time I checked.

There is no civil war in Ukraine, either - that is simply yet another lie put forward by Putin to justify his actions to "protect the Russian speakers of the Donbas."  Soldiers from foreign countries tend not to get killed in "civil" wars.

[papakota]

I told you why. Now you'll just have to go to Western Ukraine to understand why if you insist on speaking Russian, you won't be received well. I've seen memorials of soldiers set up in the middle of Ukrainian towns who died at the hands of Russia. It's best not to adopt the language of those who are trying to kill or control you.

I don't know, maybe now it's different. But the only place in W. Ukraine I would visit again is Uzhgorod and it's a very special place (Zakarpatya). It's less nationalistic and it has lots of Slovaks and Hungarians living there. Also they have some Rusin population. So it's a more tolerant place to people. I talk to one guy from there on Skype sometimes. He said that he's ethnic Tatar and he always speaks Russian to me.
You have a right for an opinion. But I totally disagree. I simply don't see a connection between Russian language and a conflict in Ukraine. It's like if someone from Italy started to hate English language 'cos UK occupied Falkland (Malvin) islands. Lots of ethnic Italians live in Argentina. What you're saying about Russian language is a total B.S. Millions of Ukrainians were killed by Germans not too long ago (incl. my great grandma). So according to your logic, Ukrainians must stop learning German at schools? You don't get it. Russian is not a language of some strange land. It's OUR language, same as English is YOURS. I'm just an immigrant in Russia (my wife is a Russian citizen). My family roots (on my mother's side) are in UKRAINE. Therefore, Constitution of Ukraine gives me a right to obtain a citizenship in Ukraine. Russian Constitution doesn't. And our family is not one of those Soviet era transferees from RSFSR (Russian Soviet Socialist Republic) proper. A language can't be a foreign one in a country in which the majority of people speak it as a native one. Western Ukraine is the only place in Ukraine where majority of people speak Ukrainian language as their native one. But population of Western Ukraine is relatively small. Maybe 100 years from now most people in Ukraine will be speaking Ukrainian. Who knows. But as of today most people speak Russian. Even in Kiev, let alone in places like Kharkov, Dnepr and Odessa.

[msmob]

After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, I doubt it would be popular for anybody speaking Japanese in America. Many Ukrainians know Russian but after Russia attacked their country, I'm sure Russian is spoken less in Ukraine. Continuing to use the language of the guy kicking your ass as your primary language isn't too bright.

BillyB

Best you go to Kyiv and realise that for most..speakung Russian is not a crime or unwise.

Really, what you posted just doesn't equate to the sotuation.


TV debates switch between the two...no issues..

In Odessa, in is still the most commonly spoken of the two...cor most...no stigma attached..


Sadly, it is mainly Russian soeakers who might regard speaking Ukrainian as meaning one is a little less smart...and this long predates the current instability in UA.

[msmob]

There is no civil war in Ukraine, either

 When fellow citizens of one nation fight each other..what do you call it?

It is a political stunt to deny the deep schisms that have been polarised into conflict...with one side trying to recreate 'novorossiya' ..being encouraged and  supported by a neighbouring nation...