"Honest Jim" Cries "scam" !!

[Rvrwind]

I think that Jack Bragg did a great service to this forum by coming forward to share his very personal issues with us.  He brought up a potential problem (having children later in life) that is something men should take into consideration while pursuing a younger woman. I personally know that this was a heart wrenching decision for the couple in question and for anyone to throw criticisms at them, is, well, pretty damn classless.
KenC

Couldn't agree more Ken.
I am actually in sort of the same situation. However, my wife knew before we married that I could not give her a child but she chose at that time to marry me anyway. Lately it has become problematic as she is quickly ageing out of her child bearing years & now wants to have a child. She knows I cannot deliver & really at my age don't want too. So far we are okay & not talking divorce but another year or two & who knows.
It is something like you said that all men who marry a much younger woman need to consider. I did & I made it very plain before we married & I even gave her time to consider it well before we married & she at that time accepted it, maybe her hormones are taking over now, I don't know. What I do know is the subject comes up much more often now than it used too & with her friends having children all around us is not helping.
I've tried talking to her about adoption but she wants her own & I certainly cannot afford AI at 5 grand a pop. We love each other very much but I can see what Jack & his lady went through & I know it isn't an easy thing. I am just hoping we don't have to make that same decision.
To divorce someone you have come to dislike or find you can no longer live with is one thing & plenty hard enough, but to divorce someone you love has really got to tear your heart out!!

[Son of Clyde]

I tend to agree with Jack that Stirlitz' prices are rather high and Stirlitz made a comment on RWG that my interpreter might be inferior. Or maybe he was saying you get what you pay for. Funny, he never spoke with my interpreter. Maybe he did not approve because she is female? There are some who feel a male interpreter is better for a guy.

I do think Igor is an asset to the board for his insight and excellent English skills and I don't have to agree with everything he says. Maybe some people can afford Igor's prices and they think his services warrant the $20.00 an hour. I used an interpreter that was affordable for me and she was excellent.

Freedom of choice.

[Bruce]

Rvr - sorry to hear there are any difficulties at all in your marriage and hope you will overcome them.  I suspect all will be fine for the both of you.  You two really are a great couple.

Don - I hope you get off the fence and decide to have one.  You are young and in great shape.  Its biological and not chronological age that counts in your case.  You and Yulia are another great well matched couple. 

That being said, I suppose the cr&p never stops until the kid gets out of the house, so I understand how those of you with grown children do not want to deal with the expense and hassle of another child. 

[Stirlitz]

I tend to agree with Jack that Stirlitz' prices are rather high

It is funny but speaking about my rates it is you who is partly responsible for my decision to increase them. I used to charge as much as the majority at that time but after Irina called me, asked how much I charged (that was the only thing she said), immediately hang up and later I learned she found a cheaper interpreter, I was outraged and decided that now that you think I charge much, I will charge much! This is not to say to start flames, it is all past and I bear no ill feelings now, but that is how it happened. I never regretted my decision and in a way I am grateful to you because I started making more money leaving many problems behind at that, because the higher rates cut off many losers (again, this is not hinting at you or anyone here), and the story with cheap losers is that however much (or rather little) you charge, it will always be too expensive for them and they will never stop whining about it untill you do everything for free. While, on the other hand, it is quite a different story with my present clients who do not mind my charges at all. But as this thread is not about me, I would rather cut this dicsussion now. I just could not help adding some details to the story after you brought it up. Please do not take it personally or as a promotion attempt, or whatever… just a detail to add to your posting.

[KenC]

Igore,
I have always adhered to the old adage that you get what you pay for. I like what Don said up thread about not pinching pennies regarding something so important as understanding what your potential wife is saying.  I also made the point to him that I see many an advantage in having a male interpreter too. But please ease back on the "loser" comments OK?  It just doesn't serve your interest well.  You are much better off to make your case in a classy nonconfrontational way.
KenC

[TheHorseman]

There are pro's and con's to what ever type of  interpreter you use.  I have never used a professional interpreter but I can see where it might be better.  I have had my male friend translate letters for me and I have had a female friend traslate in person for me.  Using a friend of any gender tends to lead to conflict of interest.  I have found my way around some that by going as a teacher in an English school as I said before.  There are usually plent of interpreters around.  My russian got a little better too.

About being on the fence about kids....I guess I am as well.  Since I can't have kids anymore I wouldn't be againest finding a woman that had a kid alread.  No real fence there.

[Stirlitz]

KenC, point taken. Thank you. But please also note my point. I made it clear and I want to stress again that I am not hinting at anybody especially here and I do not want any flames. However, I always call a spade a spade. By losers I did not mean just anyone who cannot afford higher fees, but a certain type of people (as I described). Not everyone with few $$$ falls into this category.  However, losers usually tend to be cheap and poor. Which does not mean all cheap and/or poor people are losers. I know people who are not rich but they have something which can be called honor or dignity or whatever and does differ them from losers, who are not necessarily poor either. Does it sound right?

[Rvrwind]

the story with cheap losers is that however much (or rather little) you charge, it will always be too expensive for them and they will never stop whining about it until you do everything for free.

Damn!!!
Sometimes the truth just jumps right out there. I've had my share of these in my time & if that offends anybody TFB!! Actually if it offends you, you probably fit the category. Like Igor I tend to call 'em as I see's 'em!!!

[Stirlitz]

Hush, hush. I said, please no flames.

Even though I feel exactly the same.

[Jack]

I don't want to take this topic anymore off target than it already is now with the discussions of interpreters and fee's so I have posted in the members to members exchange link a post directed at those losers and other certain type of people out there who would prefer to pay less without sacrificing quality.

[Son of Clyde]

This is my last post on the subject, just giving my side of the story.
Yes, my wife called Stirlitz and asked his prices, I think it was $90.00 a day at that time.
My wife has a friend living in Yalta who charged me $40.00 a day and did an excellent job. She happened to be studying English at the University and had interpreted for many other people.
End of story.

[KenC]

Clyde,
It is great that everything worked out for you, but you can hardly compare a professional interpreter with a college student that "knows some English."  I guess it is all a matter of how much quality is necessary and how important it is to you.  A Volkswagen Jeta can get you from point "A" to point "B" as can a Mercedes.  If it is worth the price difference, is completely a personal decision.

Igore,
No matter how many times you ask for "no flames" it will still be up to the posters here if you're going to get them or not.  And you may even get more by asking for them not to be given.   
KenC

[Stirlitz]

I think it was $90.00 a day at that time.

$60. I made it $90 after that call.

[Turboguy]

$60. I made it $90 after that call.

I think Son of Clyde should get a little commission for helping you make more money Stirlitz.  The cold hard reality of it is that I think you probably do a great job and are an excellent choice for anyone you work with.  It is also reality that there are cheaper interpreters out there.  Some are quite good and some are a waste of the lower fees they charge.   I am sure anyone who uses an interpreter that charges half as much and they end up costing him a relationship that might have been perfect for him did not get a bargain.

I don't think that someone who does not want to pay your fees is a cheap looser.  He may be a bit of a gambler.  We all have budgets we have to work with.  This is a very expensive project.  I have probably invested $ 100,000 and am no closer to my goal than when I started.  I see guys who fly over first class and stay in a suite at a big hotel or an apartment with three flat screen TV's and a jacuzzi.  I see others, like me, who fly over chewing on their kneecaps and stay in a $ 60.00 apartment. 

There are guys who want the best and can afford the best.  You are the best.  You have a right to charge whatever you want.  Those who want to pay for the best can.  Those who think your prices are too high will have to settle for what they find, good or bad.   To me that does not make those who can not afford it cheap losers and those who charge less second rate. 

Just a general statement that is not directed at you or anyone.  I am a lot more impressed with someone who presents his product in a positive way and does not talk about the competion in a negative way than with someone who tries to make his products sound better than the others by trying to tear down his competion and bash them.   That applies to agencies or translators or anyone in any kind of business.

Stirlitz, you are a very outspoken individual like a lot of the people here.  You have some great ideas that you share and I am glad you are back.  I have always enjoyed your posts.  Everyone in any kind of business has competition that will often be cheaper than they are.   Don't take it so personal.   We have a saying "cream always rises to the surface"  Of course that means that anything or any services that are excellent will find their way to success. 

You have a top quality service and can get the price you ask.  You will always loose some business to cheaper competion.  Don't sweet it, just be helpful, do a great job for the guys you work with and accept that in a field like yours cheap competion will always be out there.

[Manny]

I find in business you need to look at what you expect to pay an average guy a day/hour where you are.

In the UK, average minimum wage is about £6 ($10), add a bit for a guy with 2 languages (after all he is not a lawyer or doctor, just a guy who speaks 2 languages)

I imagine Ukraine to have a much less average/minimum wage than the UK, so I would expect to pay proportionately less for what I purchased there, and many people will speak english, so they must ne plentiful.

Based on my experience of the FSU as a whole, I would expect to pay somebody about $7 per hour for this service with a discount on the day maybe. (especially if you have to feed & water them)

[Kevin]

Wow,, I take a vacation for a week and the site goes wild.

For starters I have nothing against Jack or Jim and I was surprise to see this posting. I am aware that Jack and Jim have their difference but up to now it been mostily between the two of them over ladies posting and agency recommendations.

For starters I am on Jim Gold list for about 4-5 years. I have paid for banner advertisment on his site about two years ago. But I didn't renew it this year or at least not yet and I'm still on the gold list. Their might had been a request 4-5 years ago for donations when he first started. But I can honestly say nothing other then banner adverstisement in last three years. It was also clearly told to me by Jim that it would have no effect on my listing on his site. I understand the cost of maintaining a site as it isn't free and if Dan every decide to offer paid advertisement on this site I will be one of the first to sign up to support this site.  Old profile copied when he started. Again not a factor today. I am also guilty of coping a few blacklist when I started the site honestmarriageagencies.com as I wanted to get the word out about scam sites.  However I had to remove it 2 years ago when it became difficult for me to verify some of the agencies listed. Today I have only a private list of scam sites.  But I fully support any site that still get the word out.

Next topic, Jack Bragg.  As some of you are aware I also recommend jack site and  his tours to my clients and others.  I have seen no proof of any scams and I do get to meet his clients when they come though Kherson. While other tour groups load their socials/parties up with working Girls. Jack runs a tight ship on his tours and he is very clear about his rules and procedures. The only time I even hear of a complaint is when someone leaves a tour in process for a lady even though jack make it clear that you must agree to attend the fulll tour.  I understand the need for this as  lady and facilities are paid in advance for each city and it not fair on the ladies who attend. 

There seem to be a private dispute between two sites owners that I have recommend over the years and I would like to see it resolved or at least post proof of any claim by either.

Sorry no comment about the other topics.   

Kevin Hayes

[PeeWee]

Here's one

Ed McMahon   age 70?

Peewee

[wiz]

However, losers usually tend to be cheap and poor. Which does not mean all cheap and/or poor people are losers. I know people who are not rich but they have something which can be called honor or dignity or whatever and does differ them from losers, who are not necessarily poor either. Does it sound right?

That is a very arrogant statement!

I think TG has pointed out some excellent advice:

"I am a lot more impressed with someone who presents his product in a positive way and does not talk about the competition in a negative way than with someone who tries to make his products sound better than the others by trying to tear down his competition and bash them. "

You and me we have debated in the past in another board for the same subject.

Most of the people over here agree that the average price of $7 per hour is the price that most people will pay.

As I have told you before the price charged should be according to local conditions and cost of living. Your view is that you can charge prices, on the same level as charged by people living in countries with very high cost of living in comparison with the cost of living in Ukraine which, for us westerners is very low.

I have told you before, good for you if you can charge these prices but there are plenty of other excellent translators living in your country who charge much lower and more sensible prices and you can not knock them down because you say you do more superior job than them. It is up to us, the clients, to make judgement on the quality of their services and not to a competitor who does not know the quality of their work!

I am one of those "cheap loosers" you mentioned in your post and I have never paid more than 30 Dollars for a days work to some very good people who provided me with excellent service. I have never been charged more than 10 dollars for a 2 pages legal document, but of course I have always paid them more on my own will and I know very well the quality of their translation by reading the document in English, translated from Russian.

[andrewfi]

Wiz ~ Years ago I had a carpet cleaning business. Our hourly rate for domestic work, which we discounted because it was nice cashflow generating and diary filling stuff, was about 25 pounds per hour. Our serious business was much more expensive.

A question often asked of us by Mrs Housewife who thought she knew a thing or two was this: 'how come you charge so much per hour when I know the wages you are paying are much lower?' My resposne was that if she wanted to pay one of my guys for a forty hour week, every week and for his holidays and other benefits, then she could have her work done for hardly more than the hourly cost of his wages. In a business we have other things to consider, Stirlitz does this work for his business. He is not a student, shop assistant, teacher who happens to know a little English and have some free time. All the foregoing can be happy to earn 'wages' as they do not make a business and profession.
Usually a 'professional' one man band will spend some 30-50% of his time just prospecting and marketing and adminstering. That time has to be paid for. The student, teacher whatever just takes the money when it is offered and makes as decent a fist of it as she can - sometimes good, often bad. (read the horror stories!)

Nowadays I hire workers, I am sometimes willing to pay the lowest possible price and accept the consequences; at other times I want to be able to depend upon the outcome and scehdule. In those cases I pay a lot more.

If I were seeking a lifetime partner and could not share a language would I use an agency interrupter who is paid in tips, meals and first go at the new guys?
NO!

If I were seeking a lifetime partner and could not share a language would I use an interrupter who was qualified by virtue of a few language classes?
NO!

I would want somebody on whom I could rely, somebody that I knew was charging an economic rate for his work and, given the base wage only price of $7-10 per hour I would know that something in the region of $20-30 should get me somebody decent, somebody who, if in business for a few years had been demonstrating their value consistently at that price level. (If they did not offer value they would have been forced out of business well before meeting me!)

In every market there are people only willing to pay the lowest price, usually for one of three reasons:
1) They are too poor to do it properly
2) They do not much care about the outcome
3) They do not understand what they are buying

There are also people who DO pay a reasonable price (I am sure Igor's charges are not the highest in the market for interpreters but reflect the realities of the MOB business, much as I did in my cleaning business). A price that is adequate to provide decent recompense to the provider and to provide reliable and decent quality services in all significant areas of the enterprise (not just the interpreting.)
Stirlitz almost certainly serves a minority, there is usually no shortage of paupers and cheapskates in a market, but do you think Stirlitz cares about them? I know I did not in my business.

The only area where Stirlitz rightly has a concern is in an area he has mentioned before: There ARE good professional people being forced to work for uneconomic wages. This in the end either lowers the quality of the service, or forces those decent people out of the business, also reducing the level of service. Same for me in my cleaining biz. I wanted to see people getting paid reasonably and being able to do a decent job - most were not earning enough money and were not doing a decent job.

[Turboguy]

Good points Andrewfin.    Same thing in a lot of busiensses.   Take your car into a repair garage you might be paying $ 100 an hour or more for work being performed by a mechanic getting $10-$20 an hour.

I have no problem with anyone choosing to charge whatever they think they can get.  Free economy will always come into play.  If they charge much more than they are worth they will end up with too little busienss.  IF they charge much less than they are worth they will have tons of business but too few profits.  Evidenlty Stirlitz's services are worth what he charges and he can get it.

I like Stirlitz and value his opinion.  I just think people have a higher opinion of someone who does not bash his competitors as well as bashing those customers who don't have enough knowlege of what a better interpreter is to be willing to pay the price.   Most of the interpreters I have used were inexpensive, some very good, some very bad.  If you just look at price that is going to happen.  The only one that I have used who was higher in price was my Moscow interpreter who is more than worth the extra cost.

[wiz]

Andrewfin

I do not disagree with your main points made but my argument is that pay is according to cost of living in each country and the local conditions. That is all.

Would you pay the same wages here in the UK and in Ukraine for the same job with such difference in the cost of living? Somehow I don’t think so.

In my business, travel, I was employing also staff too and I was paying well above the average salaries in the industry plus incentives, because I wanted good staff and in my view I was running a very slick operation and their productivity was 3 times up from the average in my type of business.

Just for your information I have not and will not use interpreter when it comes down to communicating with a woman from FSU. If she does not speak good English so we have good direct communication I don’t bother to meet her or communicate with as I think is waste of her and my time. Luckily there are plenty who can speak good English.

[jb]

for your information I have not and will not use interpreter when it comes down to communicating with a woman from FSU. If she does not speak good English so we have good direct communication I don’t bother to meet her or communicate with as I think is waste of her and my time. Luckily there are plenty who can speak good English

That's about the smartest thing you've said since you got here.

[Stirlitz]

Turboguy,

Thanks a lot. I am even confused because you really flatter me However…

I don't think that someone who does not want to pay your fees is a cheap looser.

I never said that and I do not think so either.

I am one of those "cheap loosers" you mentioned in your post and I have never paid more than 30 Dollars for a days work to some very good people who provided me with excellent service.

Sorry but I cannot argue with you when you say that you are a cheap loser. You really are. (Bold and italics are mine.)

When some very good people do something very good for me I pay them as much as I think is enough for them to know that I am their friend and I appreciate what they did for me, plus something extra. I do not care if I pay ten times as much as losers would pay them or what the cost of living in that area is, and other losers’ stuff. There is something much more important, but losers are not capable of realizing what it is. Well, let them be.

Would you pay the same wages here in the UK and in Ukraine for the same job with such difference in the cost of living? Somehow I don’t think so.

Somehow I think a UK interpreter would charge far, far more than $7, $20 or whatever. You must be lucky if you find $50 an hour.

As I have told you before the price charged should be according to local conditions and cost of living. Your view is that you can charge prices, on the same level as charged by people living in countries with very high cost of living in comparison with the cost of living in Ukraine which, for us westerners is very low.

Here we go again… Likewise, I have told you before that local conditions and cost of living do not differ greatly when you think about the total of all things, not just basics like food and cheap Chinese clothes which are indeed quite cheap. Gasoline, cars, cell phones and other electronics cost as much as across the ocean or even more, Internet access is more expensive, property is getting really expensive (fancy a small studio apartment for $100,000 in uptown Kiev, not to mention $1.5 mln ones in the downtown?), and if I go to a restaurant or want to stay in a nice hotel, I pay as much as I would in Western Europe. (I have been there, so I know). Yes, many people can get along on really small money but you would not want to live the way they do. I have offered to make an experiment: you come over here and live a month with the money you claim is enough and you pretended to not have read that message. So no need to bring it up again. I am not going to talk to you here.

Evidenlty Stirlitz's services are worth what he charges and he can get it.

My favorite quote is:

“Don’t hold on to your clients by charging less. Charge more and prove that you are worth it!”

So far I have been able to live up to it.

for your information I have not and will not use interpreter when it comes down to communicating with a woman from FSU.

As I have said, why bother about FSU at all. There are a great many English speaking women living next door. You also save on flights and hotels.

[andrewfi]

Wiz ~ What do you think the going rate for an urban professional is in Kiev these days? A lot more than $7 per hour - let us not forget the current devalued dollar!

In a country where the average wage is about 450 Euro I would expect to pay for a 'personal professional' around the 50 Euro per hour mark. Stirlitz's charges are reasonable for his environment $7-10 per hour is not.

Of course, in many cases the real price paid by the guys trying to slide by on the cheap is much higher. Buying meals, paying for taxis, hanging around waiting, poor quality interpreting, side scams with restaurants, agencies, shops and the like.

I do not know Stirlitz, but given that he has a good reputation from those who have used him and that he has been doing this for some years, I know he offers good value. I have yet to hear ANYONE consistently recommended, or even named, who charges at the $7 level. If they were so good and offered real value I am sure there would be ample recommendations for Irina the interpreter and her amateurish sisters; instead we hear just the opposite.

[jb]

I would expect to pay for a 'personal professional' around the 50 Euro per hour mark.

At those prices I'll send my wife over, I'm pretty sure she speaks and understands English/Russian/English better than Stirlitz does,,, what a deal. 

This is getting ridiculous.