Has anybody used RussianScamCheck?

[Leslie]

I got posting fatigue on this subject years ago.  Here is an archive thread all the newcomers should read -

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=834.0

Lot of great advice and discussion there.

5 long stem red roses is a good first gift.  Around $50 has been the going rate for years.  You are buying a service not just the flowers 

Any problems whatsoever - Bad address, does not want her picture taken etc then dump her immediately.  In a heartbeat.  No second thoughts. 

A decent woman who has an interest in you won't make ANY problems.  A sensible guy is ONLY interested in this kind of woman.

[Jooky]

What can it hurt?   You can always tell your woman that you requested the picture because you wanted to see her get her flower because you care so much for her.....

And she requests that you send her money because she cares so much for you and wants to make sure that you also care.  

What can it hurt? Not everyone takes the implication that they are a crook with a smile and a thank you, and that's what a scam check implies. Sending just a single rose only adds to the insult!

I also really wonder about the validity of this scam check.

Just the fact that one is doing a scam check implies that he hasn't spoken to his penpal on the phone yet. If a rose is to be delivered to someone, and you don't have their phone number, how can you ensure that the recipient will be home?

What happens if someone else answers the door? What if 'Mama' or 'her sister' or 'her brother' or 'her friend' answer the door? Does the delivery service inform that they must deliver the single flower in person so that they can verify the cheap delivery by photo? That would come across as extremely odd and suspicious. Do they stalk the address until the recipient is found at home? What if 'Sexy Olga' is never at home? At what point do they decide that the recipient is a scammer?

I've had plenty of packages and flowers delivered in Russia, but none with conditions. Typically the intended recipient isn't the first one to receive the gift.

In the best case, the woman that sent the photos you admire picks up the flower and is naive, desperate, or crafty enough to ignore the insult.

What does this tell you? That the woman in the photos exists? Of course she exists. She still might be a scammer, a scammer's girlfriend, friend, or sister. More scammers know about the flower-photo check than normal women, and they know how to pull it off correctly if they wish to do so.

My opinion:

Flower-photo check is insulting to real women and ineffective againt real scammers.

$35 bucks for a flower is as much as a scam as any Russian scammer is trying to pull.  

[Leslie]

Jooky,

You have been around for a while and you are entitled to your views. I disagree.  When I started this quest I was scammed.  In fact I went on a trip to Saint Pete and met Fat Yuri and his prostitutes     I was also taken for a chump by a crooked interpreter and the woman who pretended to be my girlfriend...

I never posted any of this to the scam sites.  Why should I advertise my own stupidity?

These people took advantage of me because I was too polite.  Acting like most western men do in our feminized society.  I must not ask the obvious questions.  Devushka might feel insulted 

My male Ukrainian friends finally persuaded me to stop acting like a pussy.  Ukrainian society is NOT feminized.  The guys call the shots.  If Devushka is offended by a direct honest approach then tell her to fly away on her broomstick   

This process works as follows -

You are writing to a woman.  After 3-4 letter exchanges you ask to talk on the phone.  Any prevarication on this and you simply stop writing.  There are millions of women. Don't waste time on one that won't talk with you. NEXT !

You bring up the issue of scamming.  People pretending to be other than they are.  You tell her openly that you want proof of who she is and in return you will provide proof of who you are. 

The flower delivery service works like this -

The delivery agent telephones the woman to say she must come to their office with her domestic (Blue) passport in order to collect her gift.

The woman comes to the office and her identity is checked.  Her address is verified against the "Propiska" in her passport.  The relevant pages are scanned and forwarded to you. 

She gets her gift (Flowers and chocolates/toy) and a letter from you which contains a scan of your driving license.

If the guy chooses an independent delivery agent (not the agency who made the introduction) this process will filter out 100% of the internet fraudsters.   

Oh the woman might still be a witch but you have to meet face to face to find that out 

If you are planning a "VISIT MANY" trip then you can skip this entire process.  After all If one or two women on your short list turn out to be spooks it is no great loss.  If you are planning a trip to visit one woman then IMHO you would be very foolish not to do this. Would a sensible guy planto travel half way around the world to meet someone you has issues with this simple process? 

Act like a mule and you may get ridden like one 

Trust has to be earned.  Only fools give it as a gift.  A decent, honest woman who has wants to progress the relationship to meeting you won't have issues.  Miss smokinhotkova who dates 2 or 3 foreign guys a week in the summer may well - but  that's no loss. 

[Jooky]

Hi Leslie,

I don't think a flower-photo check, no matter how it was conducted, would have helped you from being scammed on your trip to Saint Pete. Your pretend girlfriend had a real name, address, and was the girl in the photos right? Some scammers are, some scammers aren't.

The flower-photo check doesn't root out a clever scammer. A mass mailer scammer won't hand out a phone number, so the flower-photo check as you describe it would not be possible.

Neither do most men that order these type of services inform their penpal that they are doing a background check on them. If they did, a clever scammer would be prepared, if not with them, for the next sucker. Some individual scammers are making from 10 to 50 times a normal salary in their cities. They know what to do.

I'm sure some flower-photo services operate as you describe, but many don't. We're talking about RussianScamCheck here.

This is what they do for $44.00:

We will deliver one red rose to the address you provide us with. Our couriers will personally visit the address, and report back with their findings. This includes a description of whether the address or the recipient was found, and a photograph of the delivery, in the event that the person exists.

Or you can fork out an extra $15.00 for this:

We will deliver one red rose to the address you provide us with. Our couriers will personally visit the address, and report back with their findings. This includes a description of whether the address or the recipient was found, a photograph of the delivery, and passport verification. The recipient will need to show their passport or some form of ID in order to receive the gift.
Highly advised for those who believe the recipient might be using a fake name.
This option includes a check in local telephone directories, in the event that we are unable to find the recipient. If the photograph isn't taken, but the order is delivered, our courier will describe the recipient's major physical characteristics.

For more you can get a personal scam check consultation which sounds like exactly how I've helped many a newbie on these boards for free. 

You do not need to give out the woman's phone number to order the RussianScamCheck's single rose delivery. Neither will your driver's license information be disclosed to the rose's recipient.

So to me, it seems that this service is vulnerable to the problems I described.

Regardless, I stick by my opinion that this type of check is in poor taste.

If I had chatted with an American woman a few times and then she then delivered some pathetic 'gift' with the obvious intent of doing a background check on me I would think she was insane. Just as you would dump a Russian woman who would be insulted by such an intrusion, I (and hopefully anyone in their right mind) would dump an American woman who asked me to do the same.

I know, dating a Russian woman is 'different'. Well, I've met European women online, and they would have considered me a maniac if I pulled the flower-photo background check on them. Why is Russia different? Because we make it so!

Would a sensible guy planto travel half way around the world to meet someone you has issues with this simple process?

A sensible guy does not seek a bride in Russia. Period! We are not sensible.

PS. I wholeheartedly agree with your general attitude about not acting like a pussy, but I disagree with this type of initial paranoid approach towards women. For me it kills the romance.

[Leslie]

Jooky,

I dislike this type of justification -

"A sensible guy does not seek a bride in Russia. Period! We are not sensible."

LP (the lear pilot) maintains that all the people involved in MOB are jerks and losers.  I disagree - a large percentage are but not all. the guys who approach this quest with a thoughtful, careful mindset are far more likely to succeed.

First off don't compare MOB with local dating or dating in western Europe.  If you date the girl next door you know about her family, maybe went to school with her siblings.  You speak the language so you hear the gossip and can make your own judgements.  If you date a woman from western Europe she has "economic independence" Her own flat, car and career.  MOB is almost non existantant in these countries.  If you want to marry a British girl get a job in UK and live here for a while.  There is no pool of poor, good looking UK girls waiting to marry middle aged Americans 

In the poorer countries of Eastern Europe such a pool of women exists.  As you might expect (if you think about it) this pool of women contains a much higher percentage of "white trash" than the general population.  You may not want to accept this simple fact (Andrew has been stating it for years) but it is true.  Women who have been prostitutes, misstresses or who simply want a dumb mule to take them to a better life.  The boards are replete with sad (even tragic) stories of dumb romantic guys who propose marriage to a virtual stranger and then truly regret their stupidity....

I am no fan of the Scam boards.  The posted stories are larded with bullshit and so misrepresent what really happened.  Not a few women are branded as scammers who did nothing illegal just did not fulfill the guys fantasy requirements.  The men's scammer listings have the same problems.

I have never used Russian Scam Check so I cannot comment on their services.  I have done the flower/photo/passport check on many occasions.  Never had a problem with an honest woman.  If I had done this simple check on the two women in St Pete neither would have been willing to hand over their domestic passports for scrutiny.  Of course they talked on the phone either at the office or on a mobile.  Reveal there real name and address?  A prostituka won't do that.  Neither will a regular pro dater (who is a prostitute too but she tries to get as much as possible from you in return for as little as possible from her )

Doing a simple photo check is NOT acting like a maniac. I was on match.com when I lived in NYC.  I insisted that first meeting were ALWAYS in Starbucks.  Women turned up who were obviously 20 years older than their photos.  One went to the ladies room and snorted a couple of lines of coke.  No loss to me.  I just told them to F*CK OFF.  I lived in the city and the price of Starbucks is pocket change.  Spending thousands of dollars (and vacation days) to visit a witch is another matter.

I have been giving advice on the boards for 5+ years and I always err on the side of caution.  Before you meet do some basic checks.  Stay in control of your travel arrangements.  Don't propose marriage to a virtual stranger.  Meet her family, friends and colleagues.  Take your time.  If you suspect a deal breaking issue in her past - check it out!

This might not fit well with your romantic notions but it is good advice.  Ask Maxx..

[jb]

Les has summed it up nicely here and echos virtually everything that needs saying.

Leslie, with your kind permission, I'd like to do a copy paste of this post and place it in the FAQ section.  Or, if you'd prefer to see your words under your own flag, perhaps you'd do the honors yourself.

[Rvrwind]

Couldn't agree more JB, Leslie has summed it up well.
All the years in this game have surely made some of us wiser & others not so much. Some may not like what Andrew or Leslie or you or even me for that matter keep hammering home to them, but they will even if in hindsight learn that what we say, we learned from experience, not from the movies or these boards. We were the pioneers, the ones who paved the way & learned the hard way how things work & how easy one can fail.
Check, check, check & double check, an honest women will never fault you for that but it will certainly scare off the not so honest ones.
All I can say is heed the warnings or pay the price.

[Bruno]

I have never used Russian Scam Check so I cannot comment on their services.  I have done the flower/photo/passport check on many occasions.  Never had a problem with an honest woman.

Similar for me... never use a Scam check AND never use flower/photo/passport check...

I simply join a copy of my passport with my introduction letter and ask the lady to join a copy of her national or international passport with her reply if she have some interest in me... Of course, with these method, the reply ratio is very low, maybe around 10%... but your are almost sure that these who reply to you are not scammer...

Not scammer but it is always possible that you have a gold digger or GCG... these two last are other type of predator... and you can only detect them by using your mind and not beeing blinded by a beautiful body...

[Jooky]

I'm not advising anyone to throw caution to the wind (as I often do). On the contrary.

My personal romantic notions aside, this particular scam check and similar photo flower delivery services are inconclusive. The result is that you find out whether the woman in the photos exists, or do you?

I disagree when you say a pro dater or even a scammer would refuse to divulge personal information. I know of cases where both have done so.

If I recall correctly, Maxx himself did the flower photo check with his Elvira, only to find out later that she was posing with the office flowers used for every 'check'. We all know how effective this flower photo check was in preventing Maxx from being scammed. (Or am I confusing stories. Maxx?)

I also do know honest women that would be insulted by the insinuation that they may be a scammer. They might not be the type of woman you (or even I) would like to marry, but they are honest women.

And I also know honest women that are very hard to reach at home. Some might be reachable but not want their photo taken if caught by surprise. In this case the RussianScamCheck returns a physical description of the recipient. Why doesn't the delivery man see a photo of the lady in advance to judge if she is a match? The RussianScamCheck, as described on the website, is problematic.

So does the flower photo check ensure that you are dealing with an honest woman? It's a cautious step, but the answer is no.

[Admin]

I'm not advising anyone to throw caution to the wind (as I often do). On the contrary.

My personal romantic notions aside, this particular scam check and similar photo flower delivery services are inconclusive. The result is that you find out whether the woman in the photos exists, or do you?

I disagree when you say a pro dater or even a scammer would refuse to divulge personal information. I know of cases where both have done so.

If I recall correctly, Maxx himself did the flower photo check with his Elvira, only to find out later that she was posing with the office flowers used for every 'check'. We all know how effective this flower photo check was in preventing Maxx from being scammed. (Or am I confusing stories. Maxx?)

I also do know honest women that would be insulted by the insinuation that they may be a scammer. They might not be the type of woman you (or even I) would like to marry, but they are honest women.

And I also know honest women that are very hard to reach at home. Some might be reachable but not want their photo taken if caught by surprise. In this case the RussianScamCheck returns a physical description of the recipient. Why doesn't the delivery man see a photo of the lady in advance to judge if she is a match? The RussianScamCheck, as described on the website, is problematic.

So does the flower photo check ensure that you are dealing with an honest woman? It's a cautious step, but the answer is no.

Good comments Jooky. The way I look at it is this sort of service is for the person who wants to take some small step to try to eliminate or minimize as many risks as he can. The use of a service such as flower delivery cannot possibly confirm/refute the honesty/integrity of the girl. At best, it might expose a flaw in her charade, if she is openly working a scam. So long as someone understands the limitations of the service, and goes into it with the understanding it is merely one small checkpoint, then it seems a sensible move.

For the record, I never used such a service - but it was because I was in-country so often, I felt my 'face time' was a much more reliable guage of honesty/integrity than use of this sort of service. And with my limited Russian skills, I was calling daily and had the ability to vary the time of my calls which increased my comfort factor. Elsewhere, there is a topic about language issues. For the guy who is especially risk-averse, one way to decrease your risks (IMO) is to learn the language. It opens up an enormous number of doors.

Finally, as for this particular company and their service - there is one thing which I consider to be a strong recommendation. Damien, the rep for the company, has openly asked for RWD members to provide reviews of their services - both the floral delivery, and the scam checking -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?ind=reviews&op=entry_view&iden=15. The fact that he has invited reviews suggests he has confidence in the integrity of their offering, and wishes feedback to improve their service. I think that is laudable - if nothing else.

FWIW

- Dan

[jb]

Jooky,

None of the OMBs here have endorsed this particular service, this company wasn't around back when the OMBs were dating.  What each has said is that it's a perfectly OK idea.  In most cases it should even be encouraged to check out a woman's story.  A man walking into a blind date situation over the internet would be extordinarily foolish not to do something along those lines before he entrusted his heart and opened his wallet to a woman he has no track record with.  Even after a first meeting, he is still vulnerable because the pro-dater/scammer will be very adapt at her role playing and can easily keep up the fantasy for a week or two.  The single most frustrating thing I read here is seeing perfectly good advice being discounted by men who should know better. 

Very often what we see here is wish fulfillment at it's worst, MOB agencies are more guilty of feeding the myth/fantasy than any other single entity.  We have page after page of documentation right here on this board about shady MOB operations.  Why should any man suddenly be afraid of insulting a woman he doesn't know or has never met when she offers herself up for inspection as marriage meat in a Internet MOB display case?   I would be a strong advocate of using some method of verifying the veracity and accuracy of what I was getting involved with if it were me entering the Internet dating game now.  Any lie or inconsistancy uncovered should be reason enough to move on to the next contender.  You can spin this any way you like, but no matter what anyone tells a man, it's still just a crap shoot with long odds against that seemingly perfect girl not having a few warts somewhere.  If he had been introduced to her through a friend or family member who knows her well it would be a different story, but not though a MOB agency. 

Which brings up another thought, friends and family introductions, but I think that's a subject for another thread.

[tim 360]

An excellent post Leslie,  should be required reading.  One can either heed your words or do it the hard way,  Their Way,  Cheerio, Tim360

[Turboguy]

I agree with jb.  You need a way to verify her veracity and existance.  To me the flower ploy is a little too tactless.  If you want to find out if she is real, call her then go meet her.  You will find out for sure if she is real.   Phone calls can weed out the gals a bit but there is nothing that substitutes for a face to face meeting.

[Rvrwind]

there is nothing that substitutes for a face to face meeting.

There it is...in a nutshell, the bottom line, the coup de gracie!!! LOL Can't be said more sucinctly or honestly than that.

[JustPlaneCrazy]

Well, I appreciate all the feedback here, it's nice to have all the comments....

Since the 25th is the birthday of the girl I am writing, I have decided to try this service...

........I will post my findings when complete......

Todd

[JustPlaneCrazy]

   Phone calls can weed out the gals a bit but there is nothing that substitutes for a face to face meeting.

I agree 100% with you but before boarding a plane for a 12 hour flight I would rather have a little more assurance....

Funny thing, my last Russian girlfriend of 4 years, I never questioned her at all, had never seen any of these scam sites and knew nothing about scammers, I just hoped a plane a went and she was exactly who she said....I traveled back and forth for 4 years without any clue of scammers (our relationship didn't work but not because of scam)

Now, after reading all about scammers, writing many scammers, I am very cautious.....

 

[andrewfi]

Well, it is unlikely that a picture avoiding scammer is going to be meeting you at the airport is it?

This is the odd thing about the flower checking. What does it give you?
1)Somebody who knows the game and is dishonest will be there, billing and cooing over her single wilting rose.
2)Somebody who is genuine is likely to be insulted.
3)The only person it catches is the woman/man who is into scamming but does not know the rules - an unlikely sort of sausage given that one can buy a mail-order course in the bloody subject!

Chances are that the scammer who is present for the flower will also turn up at the airport to meet the man who now thinks the sun shines from her fundament. The insulted party is off the radar now and the bloke who spent out to send the paltry bloom is convinced she was going to be a scammer.
The one who might have been caught, well, she was never going to be at the airport, his/her game is money in advance of a meeting. The way to deal with that is ageless and 100% effective - don't send any money!

So, why to bother with a flawed strategy. Send flowers if you must, but do it right and don't pay extra to somebody who tells you his independent local florists are part time detectives - I have a metal tower in Paris waiting for their clients!

[Manny]

I love the way Andrew depicts the hypothetical flower as 'wilting' and a 'paltry bloom' 

Hmmm, imagine the conversation.............The scene is the 7th floor of a concrete block of flats, our intrepid investigator/florist has took himself up the stairs single, wilting, paltry bloom in one hand, camera in the other...........

Knock Knock! Steel door swings open (after 3 minutes of unlocking)
Delivery Guy: I have a single rose for Smokinhotkova!
Fat Yuri: She's out meeting an American at the Airport.
Delivery Guy: Well I am supposed to take a picture of her receiving it.
Fat Yuri: How much did Fat Joe from Texas pay for that?
Delivery Guy: $40
Fat Yuri knocks on a neighbours door, Tatiana answers
Fat Yuri: Tatiana, do me a favour, stand here, look dreamy, hold that rose in front of your face........
Delivery Guy takes picture, Tatiana gets a free rose for her trouble
Fat Yuri: OK, delivery guy, you have your picture, make sure its nice and grainy when you e mail it now........
Delivery Guy: OK Yuri, no problem. See you next week with another rose!
Fat Turi: Keep collecting those $40's mate!

Clearly this tale illustrates how foolproof the plan is! 

[JustPlaneCrazy]

I don't know much in life that's full proof......we do what we can 

[BC]

I used a 'normal' non agency related flower delivery service. This was after we had already met but before I visited her at her home... the intent was not to verify but I think the service would have told me if they had been undeliverable at the address I gave them.  (no pictures involved)

Just looked at the same site I used and the prices are quite on par or maybe a little less with what I have seen advertised on agency related sites.

If I want meat I'll go to the butcher.. If I want bread I'll go to the baker..

[andrewfi]

Manchester ~ That's about the size of it! Especially given that not all these guy's florists have a camera yet...

You'll soon be sounding like me.

[Leslie]

Andrew,

You paint a humorous picture but like jooky your views are merely opinions.  You have NEVER done this.  No personal experience of insulting a woman by using a service like this.  Just does not fit your idea of cool....

AJ used Jack (First Dream) to send a single red rose to the women on his short list.  Take a look at his pictures.  Yes, this is a loser's strategy 

[Leslie]

JB,

I think we should let this thread evolve.  When it fizzles out I will prepare a summary for you to post in the FAQ section.

RVR,

Some of the people here just "talk the talk"  We "walked the walk"  Kinda obvious who is who LOL!

Bruno,

Reckon you have a good strategy there.  Success in this game is like day trading the markets.  It is not about selecting winners but dumping the losers as quick as possible.  Filtering out that 90%  saves your valuable time, lets you concentrate on the women who ARE real.

JustPlaneCrazy

IMHO you are making a smart decision.  Slow and careful is the way to go.

[Leslie]

I reckon virtually everyone starts out by sending (or responding!) to e-mails.  The agency owners confirm that only 1 in 10 of the guys who write ever make the trip.  Newcomers who have NOT learned the ropes are the most likely to be scammed.  There is a tablet of stone here  -

Ensure you are writing to a real woman who has a genuine interest in you.

Flower/photo/passport check is just one tool.  Telephone conversations are another.  If she does not speak good English DON'T use the agency interpreter.  Use a local  (USA) one to organise a three way call.  Both these strategies deter scammers.  If you are looking for guarantees you should not be involved in this quest.

None of this is important to the experienced guys who have made a couple of trips.  You will have learned by experience. Developed your own style and approach. 

It is vitally important to the guys who have not yet made the first trip. 

I have helped out a lot of guys over the years.  Loosing a couple of grand to scammers is the least hurtful aspect.  It is being taken for a fool and wasting countless hours on something that was never real.

Don't become obsessed by scammers.  In my years on the boards I have not seen ONE guy who became obsessed by scammers build a successful marriage.  On the other hand I have also witnessed the "crash and burn" of countless naive romantics.  Proceed slowly and carefully.  Remember the Gipper's attitude to Gorbachev - Trust but verify....

[SANDRO43]

Since the 25th is the birthday of the girl I am writing, I have decided to try this service...

Todd, a couple of years ago I was courting an SPB girl. For her 36 birthday I had a local florist deliver 36 yellow chrisanthemums (I had ascertained beforehand that these were her favourite flowers) plus a pink rose to make the requisite odd number. Cost me some $130, but you should have seen her ecstatic face on webcam as I did, when she called me for a chat after she received her flowers, to realise how much she appreciated the gesture .

Since your girl is younger, you can probably spend less 

P.S.: No absolute guarantee of a happy ending, though : in my case the girl rushed a fortnight later to visit a former love in hospital who was in a bad way (they had broken up when he, after serving as a sapper in Chechenia, had returned to SPB rather mentally disturbed), the old flame rekindled and they got married shortly thereafter. But this should not deter you (unless your girl, too, has 'friends' serving in the Caucasus )