The Struggle For Ukraine

[GQBlues]

I'm not speaking for anyone.  But I am telling you what Ukrainian polls say.  There was no desire by Ukrainians to join NATO in 2014.  Until Russia invaded Crimea.  There would be no need for NATO if Russia was not a bellicose expansionist regime. 

Wrong. If Google can't help you with this, research 2008 Bucharest NATO conference. I'll make it easier for you: http://www.jstor.org/stable/48505017

For the first time since NATO’s creation, the USA was defeated at an alliance summit with regard to a priority goal it had set—the inclusion of Ukraine and Georgia in NATO. That is the most notable fact about the Bucharest Summit that history will record. Yet most Western media reports surprisingly omitted this momentous failure. The summit also revealed increased tensions between the US and Russia accompanied by new intra-European divisions, which narrowed the EU’s scope for action. The EU is indeed paralysed by a new East–West crisis whose most visible manifestation was Moscow’s recognition of the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

In conference with Georgia and Ukraine prior to the summit, Bush moved to further the aliiance by offering MAP (membership action plan) for the inclusion of Georgia and Ukraine. It was broadly rejected by notable NATO members then, as they do today. Notably Germany. A British diplomat attending the summit said: There's little appetite amongst member to inherent a east/west conflict if Ukraine became a member of NATO.

Georgia has a "frozen conflict" on its border to today, thanks to Russia.

Its borders doesn't keep Georgia from being, and doing, what it wants. Same goes for Austria, Sweden Finland, Ireland, etc...Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania have, for all intents and purposes, a 'frozen conflict' as well, whatever that means

No, it's not my opinion.  The demonstrations against Yanukovych initially were funded by Tymoshenko and were insincere.  But, they grew because he became too arrogant, which is something, given it's Ukraine.  It wasn't instigatged by the US, although the US certainly swooped in for their own interests.

It is simply that, an opinion. You can add in whatever anecdotes you want to further bungle that up, like I said, simply watching unfolding events then and now - reality dictates otherwise.[/quote]

[SteveInBoston]

Ukraine can be what it wants, on its own. They, alone, should go right into the heart of Russian front today. Why has it not done so? Do you know? You seem to speak for all Ukrainians. You should be out there along with them charging the Russia frontlines, not in the cold comfort of Canada thousands of miles from the hot zone.


I don't see Georgia 'suffering' today by not becoming a NATO member, do you?


Your opinion. Based on all the unfolding events, then and now, reality dictates otherwise.

Yes, Ukraine should be what it wants, on its own.  I agree 100%.

It would be nice if a neighboring country didn't amass troops on it's border and make demands of it, tell it what it should do or be invaded.

T was in Donesk in 2014, demonstrating in the streets until Yanukovych forces initiated a crackdown.  She fled from her home to Mariupol and was there when the conflict broke out. She is against violence but she did what she could - donate supplies, help with logistics, whatever.  And she will return to volunteer again if Russia invades, though Mariupol basically doesn't have much of a chance.  She'll travel to where she can and do what she can.

[Boethius]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22223.msg561882#msg561882

Just because you use google, don't assume everyone else does.  My information comes from reading Ukrainian newspapers, and Ukrainian polls.  Not google.

Your American centric perspective is demonstrated yet again.  Whether Bush, or anyone else wanted Ukraine to join NATO is irrelevant.  Ukrainians never wanted to join NATO.  Even today, with a threat of invasion, only 54% of Ukrainians would be willing to join NATO.  There are over 4 million Ukrainians living in Russia.  Most Ukrainians use Russian as their primary language.  Most read Russian papers. Russia remains Ukraine's largest trading partner.  While Ukrainians want stronger ties to the EU, perceiving them as less authoritarian than Russia, Russia will always remain important to Ukraine.  That's a geographical and hence, political and economic reality.  Were there no threat of Russian invasion, I can guarantee the desire to join NATO would move back to the less than 20% territory it was at before 2014.

[GQBlues]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=22223.msg561882#msg561882

Just because you use google, don't assume everyone else does.  My information comes from reading Ukrainian newspapers, and Ukrainian polls.  Not google.

LMAO! I'm not stupid enough to use Google. Hence I never bought into the Steele Dossier et al. I know many here did.

Your American centric perspective is demonstrated yet again.  Whether Bush, or anyone else wanted Ukraine to join NATO is irrelevant.

It's only irrelevant because you were ignorant of the 2008 Bucharest Summit. But nice attempt to deflect. Feel free to rewrite history that Bush (the US) singlehandedly, unbeknownst to both Ukraine and Georgia, that there were inscribed to be NATO members because the US said so, LMAO. Funny at how hard you try.

Ukrainians never wanted to join NATO.  Even today, with a threat of invasion, only 54% of Ukrainians would be willing to join NATO.

Considering it was Zelensky who lit this current fire with Russia by re-advancing Ukraine's aspiration for a NATO membership last June, despite that message (Zelensky's) was met with ambivalence by NATO's leadership, even by Blinken. Yet, here is where Ukraine is today.

Like I said, Ukraine can be what it wants to be - freely. Hell, little Georgia did what it aspired in 2008, and Georgia was in a far more disadvantage position in all angles than Ukraine is today - alone. They should tell the US/Brits et al to back off, and that they'll confront the evil empire themselves and earn their own way to a 24 hour fitness club membership, or any club membership they sought.

There are over 4 million Ukrainians living in Russia.  Most Ukrainians use Russian as their primary language.  Most read Russian papers. Russia remains Ukraine's largest trading partner.  While Ukrainians want stronger ties to the EU, perceiving them as less authoritarian than Russia, Russia will always remain important to Ukraine.  That's a geographical and hence, political and economic reality.  Were there no threat of Russian invasion, I can guarantee the desire to join NATO would move back to the less than 20% territory it was at before 2014.

Which was my very point when I initially said the US's stupid posturing today is only inciting deeper level of confrontation. Ukraine will pay dearly in this stupidity IF it doesn't declare removing itself from any aspiration of a NATO membership themselves. The best that can happen to Ukraine, forget Russia and the US, is to listen to what many of the NATO alliance believe - find a way to remove any talk of MAP while saving face, and not make NATO look weak at the same time in today's geopolitical condition.

[Trenchcoat]

Well we've done it again! Called out another planned false flag operation by Pootin:

http://news.sky.com/story/amp/ukraine-russia-tensions-moscows-plans-ruined-after-us-and-britain-call-out-possible-invasion-12532256

Maybe time for yours truly to go on holiday to Ukraine, I'll get to see lots of people running around in fatigues, will make for interesting sight seeing

[Chelseaboy]

Maybe NATO needs to start amassing hundreds of thousands of troops in Estonia and Latvia on the border with Russia..along with Tanks and missile systems and backed by squadrons of Bombers and Fighter aircraft...enough to flatten St Petersburg..just for months of exercises of course.


Make sure the build-up is all filmed ....and then keep repeating we have no intention of invading Russia.


See how Putin likes it being done on his doorstep...the very thing he fears.

[fathertime]

When the US senate agrees on something you can be sure it is something stupid. 

Senators close in on 'mother of all sanctions' bill against Russia

A bipartisan group of senators is within striking distance of a deal on a bill that would impose crippling sanctions on Russia for its hostilities against Ukraine.

"We are finding the path forward very clearly," said Sen. Jim Risch, top Republican on the Foreign Relations Committee, indicating that the White House and other key agencies were involved in the negotiations to agree on a deal ahead of any potential invasion by Russia, which has amassed more than 100,000 troops on Ukraine's border.... 

http://www.yahoo.com/gma/senators-close-mother-sanctions-bill-224201318.html


Fathertime!

[fathertime]

Well we've done it again! Called out another planned false flag operation by Pootin:

http://news.sky.com/story/amp/ukraine-russia-tensions-moscows-plans-ruined-after-us-and-britain-call-out-possible-invasion-12532256

Maybe time for yours truly to go on holiday to Ukraine, I'll get to see lots of people running around in fatigues, will make for interesting sight seeing

My own belief is that this is US false flag, calling out a made-up Russian 'false flag'.    If Russia wanted to create a false flag it would have happened quickly.   

I think you should go to Ukraine now; most people are concerned about what might happen, but not you.  Babes falling at your feet, you will capture the cream of the crop, especially if you tote along the stockpile of toilet paper from the pandemic.

Fathertime! 
 

[GQBlues]

My own belief is that this is US false flag, calling out a made-up Russian 'false flag'.    If Russia wanted to create a false flag it would have happened quickly.   

Gee, of course it is. Tonkin Gulf - the Sequel. Expect anything different?

Just last weekend, Ukraine-based reporters had told of a major and angry Kyiv pushback against Biden for repeatedly firing warmongering rhetoric, and publishing heinously wrong assessments regarding current Kremlin plans and intent. Even the public announcement of deploying 2,000 soldiers to 'eastern Europe' in preparation for 'imminent Russian invasion' was admonished. Kyiv claimed their intelligence is polar opposite to the US's intelligence reports. This event was *almost* taken off US-based media reporting.

Instead, you now you have this story about US intelligence's 'Russian false flag' fable.

Our current US administration is ferrying the unsuccessful attempt by the same party (previous) administration's mission.

The US's military complex is in desperate need of this potentially massive profit infusion. We have a HUGE need to get these war machine wheels in motion. The sooner, the better. 2014 delay was simply troublesome.

Here's a pretty darn good example of the way the *US media/military complex/DC* conduct these things:

Look at this Politico Newsflash. Then look at the picture I uploaded below. The current news link was immediately edited and 'removed' the notation " Presented by Lockheed", soon after initial release. But they weren't fast enough. It was caught on video as the picture below displays.

If there's any doubt, scroll way down the article and you'll see this little tidbit:

"Lockheed Martin's LMXT is built...."

[Trenchcoat]

This report seems to suggest that Russia might have be bearing the completIon of its invasion plans:

http://news.sky.com/story/the-final-pieces-three-new-signs-of-russian-invasion-plans-for-ukraine-12533199

An interesting report and it looks from the surveillance pics included that it definitely looks like an invasion scale of set up. My guess is that Russia is only interested in utilizing a certain number of troops as it takes more effort to move more troops into position and they need the rest to guard the other borders particularly to guard against NATO troops on its border.

There are certainly signs they might be an invasion whether Russia has a strategy to take Ukraine without blowing it to bits I don't know, whether they care who knows. If they are intent on obliterating cities with their hyper thermal missiles then it would be a horrendous act of genocide which I don't think will be forgotten.

I know before I thought early Feb around the 4th-8th or so could be a possible invasion date. It's around that now, possibly just a case of the fleet assembling in the Black Sea and a few other final preparations then maybe?

Possibly Russia has been encouraged with how they seemed to do quite well in Syria and think it will be a quick easy fight possibly with the Ukrainian army losing heart once it's smashed along with civilians and them throwing bin the towel thereby avoiding use of its hyper thermal missiles. Looks like we might find out soon either an invasion or sone sort of small diplomatic get out for Russia to climb down without losing face I reckon.

[fathertime]

I know before I thought early Feb around the 4th-8th or so could be a possible invasion date. It's around that now, possibly just a case of the fleet assembling in the Black Sea and a few other final preparations then maybe?

Invasion isn't on the table...never really has been.    No surprise element takes war of this kind off the table in my opinion.   There would be no months long obvious build up.

Fathertime!

[Trenchcoat]

Invasion isn't on the table...never really has been.    No surprise element takes war of this kind off the table in my opinion.   There would be no months long obvious build up.

Fathertime!

You could be right though possibly they don't need surprise. With their superiority with missiles that is probably all they need. The tanks and ground troops just left to go in to mop up and most of all be stationed on the conquered territory.

[ML]

Story focused on Kharkiv, Ukraine

http://tinyurl.com/2p97bn36

[ML]

There’s something oddly familiar about the Ukraine situation, perhaps because it’s part of an ongoing story involving Eastern Europe and the West. During and after the Second World War, the Soviet ruler Joseph Stalin regarded the boundaries and governance of Poland as a matter of great importance.  Stalin regarded Poland’s geography as inseparable from Russian security—much as Vladimir Putin, the current Russian leader, regards Ukraine, which shares a twelve-hundred-mile border with Russia. Stalin reminded Roosevelt that, “the Soviet Union is entitled to seek in Poland a Government that would be friendly to it.”

[Trenchcoat]

There’s something oddly familiar about the Ukraine situation, perhaps because it’s part of an ongoing story involving Eastern Europe and the West. During and after the Second World War, the Soviet ruler Joseph Stalin regarded the boundaries and governance of Poland as a matter of great importance.  Stalin regarded Poland’s geography as inseparable from Russian security—much as Vladimir Putin, the current Russian leader, regards Ukraine, which shares a twelve-hundred-mile border with Russia. Stalin reminded Roosevelt that, “the Soviet Union is entitled to seek in Poland a Government that would be friendly to it.”

Soviet Troops had of course occupied Poland as the Nazis were defeated so I'm guessing it stands as common sense that he would install a friendly government. For Russia Ukraine gives it a long border to defend but for Ukraine also. In addition it's right in the way of an easy route south to the Black Sea. I think overall Putin regards certain areas as Russian, namely Belarus and Ukraine. Both regions were Russian under Catherine the Great but prior had other rulers. Both countries contain Russian speakers, likely Russian descendants and Cities have to a large extent been seen as historically Russian, Minsk, Kiev, Odessa, etc. Not do much Lviv which though had been Lvov under Russia was also known as Lemburg under Austria-Hungary.

End of the day I'm not stating these areas should be under control of Russia, there is plenty of argument either way. Plenty of times the area of Ukraine has been independent and other areas part of Poland, etc. I think Ukraine in the west has a distinct part of it that isn't really Russian. While I enjoyed Lviv a lot of it and it's people came across as fairly westernised to me.

Anyhow latest is that reports from the US seemingly think that Russia is 70 percent ready to invade:

BBC News - Ukraine tensions: US sources say Russia 70% ready to invade
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60276342

Fathertime thinks they would do a surprise attack if they were going to invade. I'm not so sure as this report points out they need certain conditions to get their heavy weapons in plus of course you can only get so much along a road or railroad at a time. It can't all just magically appear at once or drip flow to the border and attack a piece at a time, that tends not to be a great setup for success.

Still a wait and see situation. This time feels a lot more real than last Spring when the Russians were at their 'training'. A lot more war games, in preparation perhaps, and more intensity to the build up I think. Could well be as one Ukrainian General predicted mid to late February around the end of the Olympics perhaps. Guess will have to see, could come any moment for all we know.

[Boethius]

It's only irrelevant because you were ignorant of the 2008 Bucharest Summit. But nice attempt to deflect. Feel free to rewrite history that Bush (the US) singlehandedly, unbeknownst to both Ukraine and Georgia, that there were inscribed to be NATO members because the US said so, LMAO. Funny at how hard you try.

No trying on my part.  You have a poor understanding of what occurred. 


Yushchenko was president of Ukraine during the Bucharest Summit.  He wanted Ukraine to be considered for NATO membership in the future.  Ukrainians have never supported joining NATO.  Never, until 2014.  That's a fact. 


G.W. Bush did state that NATO membership would be in the cards in the future. Bush and Obama have both held this out for Ukraine.  Only Trump said it will never happen.


Ukrainians have never been big on NATO membership.  Their presidents, adhering to kozachestvo (read about it - very important in Ukrainian history, and explains the mentality of Ukrainian politicians) did.  But it would never have occurred, as constitutionally, it has to be approved by Ukrainian voters.

Considering it was Zelensky who lit this current fire with Russia by re-advancing Ukraine's aspiration for a NATO membership last June, despite that message (Zelensky's) was met with ambivalence by NATO's leadership, even by Blinken. Yet, here is where Ukraine is today.

See above.

Like I said, Ukraine can be what it wants to be - freely. Hell, little Georgia did what it aspired in 2008, and Georgia was in a far more disadvantage position in all angles than Ukraine is today - alone. They should tell the US/Brits et al to back off, and that they'll confront the evil empire themselves and earn their own way to a 24 hour fitness club membership, or any club membership they sought.

LOL.  Well, your understanding is very flawed.  See above.

Which was my very point when I initially said the US's stupid posturing today is only inciting deeper level of confrontation. Ukraine will pay dearly in this stupidity IF it doesn't declare removing itself from any aspiration of a NATO membership themselves. The best that can happen to Ukraine, forget Russia and the US, is to listen to what many of the NATO alliance believe - find a way to remove any talk of MAP while saving face, and not make NATO look weak at the same time in today's geopolitical condition.

Ukrainians have no aspirations for NATO membership.  When all you can muster, even after an invasion, is 54% support, it's just not going to happen.

[Trenchcoat]

French President on his way to Moscow to try his hand at diplomatic resolution. Macron comes across as kind of arrogant so unless arrogance is what is needed then I don't hold out much hope.

Yesterday news of British SAS arriving in Ukraine to help train Ukraine forces in counter espionage/insurgency, etc. About a hundred in all, my guess would be that British troops training Ukrainians in anti-tank stuff are still out there. Danger being of course that Russia launches an attack while our forces are out there and kills some of them. That could then lead to a declaration of war potentially by the UK/NATO.

Russia certainly looks like it's readying itself for an invasion. These are apparently the crucial weeks that will see if it occurs or not. The ground starts to harden with frost making it a lot easier for heavy vehicles to move without churning up the ground and getting stuck. Russian ships in Syrian port at the moment to refuel & restock from their long journey around from the Baltic. Most likely next move will be to the Black Sea in the next few days. My guess is that it's all going to co-inside and cone together at once then just a case of whether or when they go ahead. Odds are they won't wait too long for the ground to thaw and will go off almost straight away.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/over-100-british-elite-troops-26150282.amp

They kind of look a bit Star Wars like in the pic lol

This report states that Russia will be ready to attack by 15th February so quite possible I guess. They reckon an attack could take place within the next ten days:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17562199/sas-commandos-ukraine-russia-invasion/

[Chelseaboy]

So British  elite battle-hardened troops,the best of the best, are now being sent to Ukraine....could be the thin end of the wedge,as they're the ones who set-up ground bases in conflict zones for everyone else.


"Over a hundred " could mean anything...enough to let the Russians know that they're there ,but keeping them guessing exactly how many have been sent in...it's the SAS/SBS way of doing things.


Boris Johnson did warn at his press conference whilst in Kiev that this potential conflict would be a military disaster for Russia and the World.


Seems that lines are starting to be drawn now.


The balls now in mad Vlad's court.

[Trenchcoat]

So British  elite battle-hardened troops,the best of the best, are now being sent to Ukraine....could be the thin end of the wedge,as they're the ones who set-up ground bases in conflict zones for everyone else.


"Over a hundred " could mean anything...enough to let the Russians know that they're there ,but keeping them guessing exactly how many have been sent in...it's the SAS/SBS way of doing things.


Boris Johnson did warn at his press conference whilst in Kiev that this potential conflict would be a military disaster for Russia and the World.


Seems that lines are starting to be drawn now.


The balls now in mad Vlad's court.

Indeed CB, a retired Russian General has come out against Putin warning him not to invade:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10484417/Top-hardline-Russian-general-warns-Putin-NOT-invade-Ukraine-accuses-criminal-policy.html

He was fired by Putin back in 2001 so could be sour grapes. Still if he thinks Putin is set to mount an invasion then he will likely have a fair idea of what indicates an invasion.

My thoughts are perhaps the SAS have been sent in on a humanitarian mission to rescue as many hotties as possible if Russia invades

I see the travel advice from our foreign office has finally changed to a don't travel unless essential line. So indicating the strong possibility of a Russian Invasion it seems.

http://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/ukraine

[GQBlues]

No trying on my part.  You have a poor understanding of what occurred. 


Yushchenko was president of Ukraine during the Bucharest Summit.  He wanted Ukraine to be considered for NATO membership in the future.  Ukrainians have never supported joining NATO.  Never, until 2014.  That's a fact. 


G.W. Bush did state that NATO membership would be in the cards in the future. Bush and Obama have both held this out for Ukraine.  Only Trump said it will never happen.

I’m glad To see I was able to educate you again. LMAO.

Ukrainians have never been big on NATO membership.  Their presidents, adhering to kozachestvo (read about it - very important in Ukrainian history, and explains the mentality of Ukrainian politicians) did.  But it would never have occurred, as constitutionally, it has to be approved by Ukrainian voters.

See above.


LOL.  Well, your understanding is very flawed.  See above.

Ukrainians have no aspirations for NATO membership.  When all you can muster, even after an invasion, is 54% support, it's just not going to happen.

LMAO.

http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3241106-zelensky-expects-discussion-of-ukraines-map-prospects-to-begin-at-nato-summit-in-june.html

See above.

[GQBlues]

 

Matt Lee is a reporter from Associated Press. He is the perfect example of what real journalism in the US used to be like. Matt Lee was also the same reporter that was highly critical and deeply suspicious about the US's deep involvement in Ukraine's 2014 coup and ensuing civil war.

Here is Matt Lee exposing further US's BS, and its effort to lit the fire of war and military engagement in the current volatile situation along Ukraine's borders.


http://tinyurl.com/y23bpr3k

He asked the State Department to provide actual proof of the US's allegations about Russia's 'false flag' plan, which the US claimed to be a declassified intelligence, Ned Price not only cannot do so, but got very defensive and literally just told Matt Lee to simply 'take his word' for it.

We're suppose to just believe all the crap coming out of this white house? WTF?!? Here's a perfectly good example of the trash coming out of this current administration:

[fathertime]

We (The US) were already trying everything we could to prevent the Nord Stream 2 from being completed...and everybody important knows it.

I suspect that the US has done something not publicized much in the US to give Russia enough heartburn to amass troops near Ukraine.  So far none of our tricks have stopped the pipeline, and I suspect this one will either. 

Biden insists Nord Stream 2 will be halted if Russia invades Ukraine

President Biden insisted Monday that the Nord Stream 2 pipeline from Russia to Germany would be brought to an end if the Kremlin chose to launch a renewed military invasion of Ukraine.

"If Russia invades, that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine again, then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it," Biden said at a joint press conference with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. "I promise you we will be able

 to do that."....

http://tinyurl.com/3evvv9x5
Fathertime! 

[GQBlues]

They (US administration) are as full of phsyt then as they are full of phsyt now. Jen Psaki when reporters drilled her, including Matt Lee, about US interference in Ukraine in the aftermath of the coup...they won't give a phsyt how many Ukrainians die for their greed now, as they didn't before...

[ML]

Sounds like a nice way to live.

Thanks to the Russian supporters who are enjoying inflicting this pain.

http://tinyurl.com/58e6rxzu

[tfcrew]

What about the Biden family's financial involvement in Ukraine that is constantly swept under the rug every time it crawls out?