The Struggle For Ukraine

[GQBlues]

I have no demons.

I've never invaded another country or killed,maimed ,pillaged or raped.

Have you ?

For a fact, I know a bunch of 4th graders in US public schools that can actually manage a coherent debate compared to you. Run along...

[Chelseaboy]

For a fact, I know a bunch of 4th graders in US public schools that can actually manage a coherent debate compared to you. Run along...

Interesting that you chose to deflect my question.


Well,just to inform you,as someone who has never invaded another country or killed,maimed.pillaged or raped, that means i have every right to question a leader ( Putin ) who has a history of sending troops in to do just that...and may be about to do the same again....whether you like my questioning him or not.


That doesn't make me a hypocrite...as i would be doing the same if it was British troops on the Ukraine border...plus i have no demons to prick my conscience.


But it isn't Brits it's Russian troops.....and it isn't the past ..it's in the here and now.


So you can sit there and rant at and mock the west all you like, the facts are it's Russian troops on the Ukraine border..not evil western powers.

[Boethius]

Did you conveniently left off the people of first nations in Canada? How about the children of the 'Residential Schools'? These aren't exactly 'the past', you know. Rather pretty current actually.

I didn't leave off first nations in Canada.  See my post. 


I did not refer to residential schools because residents and their survivors have been compensated.  I was involved in negotiating some of those settlements, a little more than a decade ago.  The number is over $50 billion currently.  Keep in mind, not all FN were in residential schools. 

[GQBlues]

I didn't leave off first nations in Canada.  See my post. 

*Compensated* What a nice, comforting word to some. Is that what it is all about to you? Compensation for those who survived? Must be a 'common' word in the Commonwealth. LMAO. Prince Andrew, I'm sure, is feeling so much better of himself lately. Compensation.

I did not refer to residential schools because residents and their survivors have been compensated.  I was involved in negotiating some of those settlements, a little more than a decade ago.  The number is over $50 billion currently.  Keep in mind, not all FN were in residential schools.

   No. (Un)fortunately, not anymore. Not amongst us anymore either.

[Chelseaboy]

Touch a nerve? That's your reply? 



LMAO! You must be kidding me/us? Holy Molly! Let me help you out as 'thinking' is obviously not your suit. Place the mouse cursor to the 'flag' underneath that gorgeous mug below my handle. A country's name will appear. Let me know if you need help with that, too.


Stars and Stripes. Home of the Brave. U-S-A! Ring a bell? Yes/No?

I'm well aware of the flags beneath posters handles..but not everyone bothers to change their flag when they move to another country....i don't when i live abroad for a period.


I've looked at all your posts on this thread....and not once have you questioned Putin or Russia about the build-up of military forces on Ukraine's border...not once.


All you do is castigate the USA/UK/NATO as if's it's us who have troops on Ukraine's border.


I wonder why ?

[fathertime]

I'm no fan of Cameron,but in fairness to him Libya attacked us first..with Lockerbie.


Libya and Gaddafi brought it upon themselves.

I don't blame countries like Libya that have little choice but to resort to 'terrorism'.  They will be massacred militarily, so they do what they have to do to still put up a fight.    They lost a lot of people/military prior to this Lockerbie incident, so they probably feel justified in doing SOMETHING to retaliate.    Western nations like the US and United Kingdom have been able to create a tough business environment for many nations and have been willing to use our military to enforce it.    By taking it to that level, it makes everybody a target. 

Fathertime! 

[ML]

I've never invaded another country . . .

What about your WMVM or WOVO incursions ?

[Boethius]

*Compensated* What a nice, comforting word to some. Is that what it is all about to you? Compensation for those who survived? Must be a 'common' word in the Commonwealth. LMAO. Prince Andrew, I'm sure, is feeling so much better of himself lately. Compensation.

   No. (Un)fortunately, not anymore. Not amongst us anymore either.

Unlike the US, Canada entered into treaties with all its First Nations.  That's what all the court cases are about - the terms and conditions of those treaties. So, based on the treaties, it is, in fact, compensation that is relevant.

[fathertime]

Looks like they are massing for a major attack. Invasion likely very imminent!
 

I've read this before, and before, and before!    Looks like the 3am attack yesterday didn't happen.

Fathertime!

[Jumper1]

Blinky reckons even more units being moved to the Ukrainian Front rather than away:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10519563/Secretary-State-Blinken-says-Putin-moving-critical-units-Ukrainian-border.html

Looks like they are massing for a major attack. Invasion likely very imminent!

Apparently the troops that were moved were moved back to their hone base that is even nearer the Ukraine border than where they were. In the mean time Russia has moved up even more troops. Really does look like they are getting to the climax, their moving troops right up to Ukraine's border now.

Just for you Trenchy

[John Gaunt]

Just for you Trenchy

Don’t give him any ideas. 

[John Gaunt]

I don't blame countries like Libya that have little choice but to resort to 'terrorism'.  They will be massacred militarily, so they do what they have to do to still put up a fight.    They lost a lot of people/military prior to this Lockerbie incident, so they probably feel justified in doing SOMETHING to retaliate.    Western nations like the US and United Kingdom have been able to create a tough business environment for many nations and have been willing to use our military to enforce it.    By taking it to that level, it makes everybody a target. 

Fathertime!

Seriously!!!
You’re condoning murder?
What next?
Will you also condone the mowing down of bystanders in Nice using a 19 ton truck by Islamic terrorists or what happened at Bataclan?

[Chelseaboy]

The Ukrainian President has tweeted today;


"I appreciate the support of Great Britain and grateful to Boris Johnson for the unity with Ukraine ! This is very important for us,especially now ! Let's join forces to preserve peace . "


He has also thanked Lithuania in another tweet.

[GQBlues]

Unlike the US, Canada entered into treaties with all its First Nations.  That's what all the court cases are about - the terms and conditions of those treaties. So, based on the treaties, it is, in fact, compensation that is relevant.

There you go again. I’ve no idea how or why you make these broad statement that is simply shockingly false. You watch Rachel Maddow too much.

There are nearly 400 treaties made between the US government and it’s indigenous Native American tribes. Of which, IIRC, over 20 were broken inside of the year it was reconciled. Since you rely on Google too much, feel free to fact check my statement.

As for Canada, if you’re referring to the enactment/formation of TRC, crimes and racism in Canada still prevalently remains today. I can provide you mountains of proof of that statement if you like. Canada, like the US, is nothing more than a testament of what a horde of European white trash can do when given an opportunity to govern a territory. That is a fact, and a historical legacy of European strain.

To actually feel good claiming any monetary compensation is relevant as some form of reconciliatory tool in exchange for its evil deeds, is even more sinful and evil in itself. Share that reasoning to the survivors of the holocaust.

Canada even have an acronym for one of its genocidal acts, MMIWG. I’m certain you’re very familiar with that.

There’s no greater evil than absolute transgressions against the innocence of children.

[fathertime]

Seriously!!!
You’re condoning murder?
What next?
Will you also condone the mowing down of bystanders in Nice using a 19 ton truck by Islamic terrorists or what happened at Bataclan?

Oh, quit being so dramatic and face reality.  Smaller nations with inferior technology may decide to use whatever means necessary to try to keep larger interlopers from trying to push them around.  Terrorism is all they have at times. 
Nothing much in the world is 'fair'.   A Hyena verses a lion.  The lion always wins.   Pack of hyena verses lion, hyenas may win.  Especially since they fight 'dirty' and come from behind to tear off Lion's balls while he is occupied with another of the hyenas. 

If YOU are condoning suppression of a nation, then you have to bear the consequences.   Why would you expect a smaller nation to just accept their fate without doing everything in their power to fight back.   The US kills women/children all the time, but it is deemed a mistake and is largely ignored. 

Fathertime!

[GQBlues]

Now that the February 16 Russian invasion of Ukraine had come and gone, crickets can be heard along the eastern border, reports US VP Kamala Harris. She laid witness to lines upon endless lines of grandmothers with flowers in their hands as the celebration of the coming spring and togetherness of one nation, one people festival. In between the festivities, multi-tasking US VP Kamala Harris had to excused herself to check if any emails arrived in her computer. One actually did. An email from Maria Zakharova, it said:


Privet durochka Harris,

With your assistance, I will call on all your media outlet to publish a full list of dates on which Russia will invade Ukraine for the year ahead, so Russian diplomats can schedule their vacations accordingly.

Spasiba.

[Trenchcoat]

Just for you Trenchy

That's a good one Jumper, would love to adopt a Ukrainian babe

[Muzh]

What Happens to Us if There Is War?


http://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/16/opinion/russia-ukraine-war.html

[tfcrew]

[Trenchcoat]

I've read this before, and before, and before!    Looks like the 3am attack yesterday didn't happen.

Fathertime!

It could happen tonight, it could happen any time in the next few days.

I didn't think it was likely to happen last night as that time was out so it took away any element of surprise. That and Putin would probably want to manoeuvre to an excuse for war particularly after he said he didn't want it to the German Chancellor. Theoretically he doesn't necessarily need an excuse, he could just say he's decided to take Ukrainian lands as he believes them Russian territory going back to Katherine the Great. Odds are though he'll probably source out one flimsy excuse.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-russia-ukraine-invasion-joe-26259442.amp

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/thousands-of-russian-troops-within-30-miles-of-ukraine-ready-to-invade-b983021.html

Bisen now thinks a war is inevitable. UK gov sources are now saying war is imminent if not inevitable. Apparently Russia has moved up troops to within 30 miles of Ukraine's border in recent hours. My guess is that they are going to make a dash for Kyiv, missiles aimed at any Ukrainian troops in the way then take up occupying land around Ukraine. They'll likely stay out the cities apart from possibly central Kyiv, cut off the rail & road routes and starve Ukrainians into submission. Ukraine's army in the east will probably be hammered by missiles into oblivion.

I personally think Putin is up for it.

[Jumper1]

And why would it be inevitable?

Not one person on either side actually believes the dire *grievances * of either make war an inevitable.

[Chelseaboy]

It could happen tonight, it could happen any time in the next few days.

I didn't think it was likely to happen last night as that time was out so it took away any element of surprise. That and Putin would probably want to manoeuvre to an excuse for war particularly after he said he didn't want it to the German Chancellor. Theoretically he doesn't necessarily need an excuse, he could just say he's decided to take Ukrainian lands as he believes them Russian territory going back to Katherine the Great. Odds are though he'll probably source out one flimsy excuse.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-russia-ukraine-invasion-joe-26259442.amp

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/thousands-of-russian-troops-within-30-miles-of-ukraine-ready-to-invade-b983021.html

Bisen now thinks a war is inevitable. UK gov sources are now saying war is imminent if not inevitable. Apparently Russia has moved up troops to within 30 miles of Ukraine's border in recent hours. My guess is that they are going to make a dash for Kyiv, missiles aimed at any Ukrainian troops in the way then take up occupying land around Ukraine. They'll likely stay out the cities apart from possibly central Kyiv, cut off the rail & road routes and starve Ukrainians into submission. Ukraine's army in the east will probably be hammered by missiles into oblivion.

I personally think Putin is up for it.

Putin might be up for it ...but his military might could soon be in deep trouble if he sends then in.


Around a dozen Russian main battle tanks were filmed stuck in deep mud near the Ukrainian border in the Rostov region on 10th Feb and it took a civilian using an excavator to rescue them.


Potential sitting ducks for those 2000 anti-tank missiles the Brits gave to the Ukrainians 

[fathertime]

Bisen now thinks a war is inevitable.

I personally think Putin is up for it.

Bisen isn't a warrior and I believe he has ulterior motives. 

It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is no iron in his words of death for all Russia to see and so there is iron in his words of life. No signed paper can hold the iron. It must come from men. The words of Putin carries the same iron of life and death. 

[Trenchcoat]

And why would it be inevitable?

Not one person on either side actually believes the dire *grievances * of either make war an inevitable.

Because Putin isn't going to go to all the trouble of assembling such a force and put it into invasion position just for the joy of it. There's no sense to that, it's a waste without any gain.

In addition Putin has made out he was withdrawing forces when in fact he was doing the opposite. Why do that as a negotiating tactic? It has no sense to it, it would only breed distrust during any negotiation. It makes perfect sense if trying to cover for more troops to come in. He was found out and has been found out concocting false flag excuses for an invasion. He'll make inroads with something and when he will attack. I don't think he'll really care how flimsy something is as an excuse it could be drawn up on the back of a fag packet. He may not even bother that much with an excuse beyond his demands have not been satisfied and hence to protect Russia he needs to take back Ukraine.

I think most see now that his preparations are within their last few moments of readiness. The next stage is the order for the invasion, that is likely to come any day (or most likely night) now.

[Trenchcoat]

Putin might be up for it ...but his military might could soon be in deep trouble if he sends then in.


Around a dozen Russian main battle tanks were filmed stuck in deep mud near the Ukrainian border in the Rostov region on 10th Feb and it took a civilian using an excavator to rescue them.


Potential sitting ducks for those 2000 anti-tank missiles the Brits gave to the Ukrainians 

All depends whether the ground has hardened since then by frost, etc.

Ukrainians best chance is probably to take the fight to the Russians, close in quick so they are too close for the Russians to use their missiles. Still the odds I doubt are good, even if they smash most of the Russian force Putin will probably bring in reinforcements. If Ukrainians attack first then they will give Putin the excuse he needs and a valid one at that.

Odds are Ukrainians will just have to endure whatever happens. If they can get a victory as you suggest CB then that would be a good one for Ukraine.

http://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-russia-crisis-world-leaders-fear-russia-is-creating-an-excuse-to-invade-ukraine-after-rise-in-attacks-across-disputed-donbas-regions-line-of-contact-12544212