The Struggle For Ukraine

[ML]

Making the social media rounds.

We are in WW III

Russia against the world and,
Ukraine representing the world against Russia.

Seems to be a lot of truth in this.

[fathertime]

.
They are struggling with kharkiv in the far east of the country with a moderate Russian population.
The going will only get  tougher in more western Ukraine and a much  less moderate population in regards to Russia in general. .
 

Looking at the video on TV off the Ukrainians tacking the Russians in Kharkiv I can see why Russia is doing so badly. Each time a column rolls into a area of the city they are in the open surrounded by concrete tower blocks. These tower blocks serve like huge concrete bunkers, many of them no doubt with people with guns so they are fired upon from virtually every conceivable angle. They show the Russian armoured column riddled with bullets and the Russians having fled. These tower blocks go on for many miles into the city so it's like the Russians are having to move through a vast concrete bunker network that towers over them and goes on for many miles.

 

The consensus here is that Russia is doing rather poorly with their attacks.   I read they are having a big meeting tomorrow with Ukraine.  IF what you are saying is accurate regarding russia's inabilities thus far, I'd venture a guess that Russia will say something like: 

"We have prioritized safety of civilians during these first few days.  We will no longer be able to do this and meet our strategic objective Our strategic objective will be prioritized after this meeting ends".   

If that statement is actualized those buildings Trenchcoat was mentioning would all be leveled, and the carnage would be unfathomable.  Putin may feel he has little more to lose, his chips are committed.  Aside from his life, he has little more to lose, and him being in a very bad place is a VERY bad place for humanity.   I do not know what his objectives are, but I think more information will come out after tomorrow's meeting.  I hope Ukraine leadership considers all that is at stake here and deprioritizes what biden and other western leaders want.  The west is all too happy to keep feeding them weaponry and lead them into what (I believe) will be an eventual slaughter.     

Of course, this is just my opinion, maybe Russia's military is so futile that they can't pull it off...but I think they can and will, because they will resort to whatever tactics are necessary.   

Fathertime! 

[Trenchcoat]

The consensus here is that Russia is doing rather poorly with their attacks.   I read they are having a big meeting tomorrow with Ukraine.  IF what you are saying is accurate regarding russia's inabilities thus far, I'd venture a guess that Russia will say something like: 

"We have prioritized safety of civilians during these first few days.  We will no longer be able to do this and meet our strategic objective Our strategic objective will be prioritized after this meeting ends".   

If that statement is actualized those buildings Trenchcoat was mentioning would all be leveled, and the carnage would be unfathomable.  Putin may feel he has little more to lose, his chips are committed.  Aside from his life, he has little more to lose, and him being in a very bad place is a VERY bad place for humanity.   I do not know what his objectives are, but I think more information will come out after tomorrow's meeting.  I hope Ukraine leadership considers all that is at stake here and deprioritizes what biden and other western leaders want.  The west is all too happy to keep feeding them weaponry and lead them into what (I believe) will be an eventual slaughter.     

Of course, this is just my opinion, maybe Russia's military is so futile that they can't pull it off...but I think they can and will, because they will resort to whatever tactics are necessary.   

Fathertime!

I think you've got it bang on right with how it will go down at the meeting FT. Russia will put what it wants and if Ukraine doesn't agree it will go in harder against Ukraine. Whether that is surrounding cities and starving them out like castle sieges of old or using all manner of high powered missiles. So far I don't think Russia has used a fraction of its power and that power lays mostly in its missiles. It looks like to date Russia has been trying to see if any of Ukraine's major cities would fold and gain a victory without much bloodshed. None has but I can't see Russia carrying on the same failed strategy they would be utter idiots. The other strategies of course involve a complete bloodbath and utter devastation to Ukraine. Starving the cities our potentially is the least deadly provided Russia has the resources to do it and the inhabitants don't take it literally to the point of starving to death.

[GQBlues]

...Putin may feel he has little more to lose, his chips are committed.  Aside from his life, he has little more to lose, and him being in a very bad place is a VERY bad place for humanity.   I do not know what his objectives are, but I think more information will come out after tomorrow's meeting.  I hope Ukraine leadership considers all that is at stake here and deprioritizes what biden and other western leaders want.  The west is all too happy to keep feeding them weaponry and lead them into what (I believe) will be an eventual slaughter...   

That, baby...is exactly the predictable script in this tragedy. I can only hope that before this reaches the crescendo that the majority of the civilian are evacuated and casualty will be minimize if not all together avoided. The west can, and will, supply Ukraine all the military ware it wants, and the more they do, the more mad Vlad will turn this burner on.

[GQBlues]

Have you fully supported every international move the usa has made?

Not even sure why that conversation found life. It clearly sounds like a page taken from Osama Bin Laden/Al Qeada's justification for 911.

[Bee Farmer]

So if that is the case, why wouldn't the Russians living here be 'tacitly' agreeing with the decisions here....why would they all need to be immediately kicked out or imprisoned...

Of course I disagree with your proclamation that Americans living abroad are guilty of anything.  Perhaps you can make a better argument that doesn't contradict itself from one post to another.   

Fathertime!

The Russians living here HAVE tacitly agreed.  They are here by privilege, and not by right.  They agreed that privilege could be revoked.  They can be named a persona non grata at any time by the host government.  They can either get out or get arrested if they stay.  It's pretty simple.

Any American living abroad is guilty of agreeing to live in another country as a privilege, and not a right.  I have no idea what contradiction you think exists...and I'm not going to try to read your mind. 

[JohnDearGreen]

I don't think they will unless a significant number of Russian soldiers start coming home in body bags.

"We will remind that the Russian army  bought 45 thousand cellophane packages for transportation of corpses . This was announced on February 23 by the head of the Security Service of Ukraine in Kharkiv region Roman Dudin. The SBU believes that the packages are planned to be used for killed Russian soldiers."

http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/buntuyut-i-ne-hochut-voyuvati-na-kordoni-rf-z-ukrayinoyu-zvilnyayutsya-rosiyski-viyskovi-kontraktniki-1985371.html

[Bee Farmer]

But you also seem to forget the entire reason the K1 process was ever developed and integrated into u.s. immigration policy.

It just ironic your take on women leaving and their motivations when the K1 was centered around military personnel, and often in war torn areas.

🤷‍♂️

I am aware of how the K1 started for war brides.  Typically, the soldier was stationed in that area for a length of time, and developed a relationship with the girl while he was there.  Both of them were emotionally invested in the other. (we hope) Then he brought her back.

The soldier also wasn't in a country that had a culture of many women trying to fleece men for money.  Divorce was also frowned upon much more than today.

If a guy was to go live in Ukraine for an extended length of time now, I still think it would be possible to find a good wife.  The girls looking for a quick escape aren't going to want to be involved with a man staying in the country for an extended amount of time. 

[Bee Farmer]

So by your logic the many times I've lived and worked abroad,  for various u. s.companies  , if our foreign policy changes when a new administration takes over, or they make some foolish invasion decisions,  I should not be able to rely on the closet us embassy for any support, and any nation connected with whomever feels harmed by u.s actions can imprison me or whatever justly.?

I have no clue how anyone with a brain could come to that conclusion by following my logic.  Are you unable to read? 

When you are living in another country, you are there by PRIVILEGE.  That privilege can be revoked by the host government.  They can declare you a persona non grata at any time, and they can tell you to leave.  If you don't leave, they will arrest you.  Yes, the host government is perfectly within their rights to tell you to leave, and to arrest you if you don't leave.

Do you have even the lightest idea of the scope of u.s contracted services abroad?

It's irrelevant.  The ONLY thing that matters is that the person abroad is there by PRIVILEGE from the host government, and that government has the right to kick them out at any time, for any reason.

So someone working in industrial.constuction in israel ,or Brazil, is not an *innocent* bystander because their company sent them.there for two.years on assignment?

They had a choice to go or not.  No, they are not an innocent bystander.  They voluntarily made the decision to go live in another country as a privilege extended by the host government.

You have a very weird perspective of how globally anything reasonable can work,or should work.

And you are ignorant of law, rights, and privileges.

I've direct family in Ukraine and inlaws,,

That is irrelevant.

Yet your stance on Russians legally here is beyond foolish.

They are here as a legal PRIVILEGE, and that privilege can be revoked.  Their visa can be revoked.  They can be named a persona non grata, and they can still be deported.

I know plenty of Russians here that certainly do not support this invasion in any way shape or form.

Nor are they children of wealthy Russians.
There are close to 250,000 Russians within 150 mile radius of me,and roughly  half a million Ukrainians,not.to.mention a million polish,and the highest numbers of Lithuanians per capita in the US,  is the county I live in.

What does that have to do with the price of rice in China?  Nothing.  It's irrelevant.

Have you fully supported every international move the usa has made?

No, but once again, that's IRRELEVANT.

[Bee Farmer]

There's nothing worse than someone who thinks they are too good to fight while others are only worthy enough to face being slaughtered Bee Farmer. Its probably the most cowardly excuse and we will no doubt hear others echo it like we have from BC of an actual Ukrainian be guy who is escaping citing that he is too worthy and so above other Ukrainian guys. Perhaps they should dispute that and all say stuff him and head for the border too lol.

I hate to break it to you, but 100 years ago the US government realized that they had a better chance of winning wars if they let the dumber folks be cannon fodder, and your more intelligent folks become officers.  It doesn't work very well if you have idiots in charge, and the geniuses get used as cannon fodder.  (But you don't want them too dumb, or you can't even teach them how to be cannon fodder.)

The US military won't accept guys over 35 either, and I am past 35.

Whether you agree with it or not, there are people who have enough brains or resources that they can be of greater benefit in other ways than by being cannon fodder.

If this war is over in a few weeks or months then I'll be on my way out there, to Odessa. Place myself in the best position possible by being a affluent guy living in a community where affluence has become a rarer commodity than ever. Now I ask you are girls going to scam me if I'm living out there in such a situation? Some might but many girls will instantly see the sense in getting with a guy like me, I would be a great long term prospect and they would want to get in before another girl did. That's how you turn such a situation to your advantage.

You're delusional. 
1. You're not affluent, and girls will realize that really quick.
2. Even if a girl did think you were affluent, she would not be looking for a long-term prospect.  She will be looking to see how much she can fleece you for, and how quickly.  But if you buy her a Ferrari, she might start thinking a little longer term.

3. If you wanted to turn the situation to your advantage, you would first be a good guy.  You would spend some of your affluence on helping rebuild, and taking care of people around you.  Then, good girls looking for a long-term prospect might take notice of you. 

 

[Bee Farmer]

The head of the EU has said she thinks Ukraine should be allowed to join.

Zelensky is saying that he would consider non-aligned status of not joining NATO.

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail tomorrow at the meeting.  I think both sides could walk away saving face if they agreed that Ukraine could join the EU, but would not join NATO.  The war ends, and the Donbass (and maybe Crimea) is returned to Ukraine.

Both sides could come out getting something they wanted.  Ukraine could get in the EU, the fighting ends, and regain territory.  Russia has Ukraine as a buffer zone keeping NATO at bay.

[fathertime]

Any American living abroad is guilty of agreeing to live in another country as a privilege, and not a right.  I have no idea what contradiction you think exists...and I'm not going to try to read your mind.

Only a complete idiot can't see the contradiction in what you are writing.   You state all Americans living abroad are 'guilty'.  (Idiotic statement), because they 'tacitly' agree with their host country's government.  On its face that is an idiotic statement, and even if Americans abroad did like their hosts government that is no crime.    After this, you try to demand all Russians living here in green card status be expelled or imprisoned...you say this while saying how expats tacitly approve of the government in their host country (Russians here).    Get your shit together and come up with a better reason you can be consistent with.   

I hate to break it to you, but 100 years ago the US government realized that they had a better chance of winning wars if they let the dumber folks be cannon fodder, and your more intelligent folks become officers. 

So then why did you think you weren't qualified as cannon fodder....

Fathertime! 
 

[fathertime]

The head of the EU has said she thinks Ukraine should be allowed to join.

Zelensky is saying that he would consider non-aligned status of not joining NATO.

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail tomorrow at the meeting.  I think both sides could walk away saving face if they agreed that Ukraine could join the EU, but would not join NATO.  The war ends, and the Donbass (and maybe Crimea) is returned to Ukraine.

Both sides could come out getting something they wanted.  Ukraine could get in the EU, the fighting ends, and regain territory.  Russia has Ukraine as a buffer zone keeping NATO at bay.

I don't think that will be considered an acceptable solution on the Russian side at this point.   Perhaps we shall learn what is REALLY going on, or perhaps not.   Biden is making statements taking actions that all indicate he wants to make sure the battle is as bloody as possible.  I wonder if the public will find out what is really going on. 
Fathertime!   

[BC]

Any American living abroad is guilty of agreeing to live in another country as a privilege, and not a right.  I have no idea what contradiction you think exists...and I'm not going to try to read your mind.

As an American living abroad, I don't see it this way.  I live in a country that provides immigrants the same rights that a citizen has.  The only exception is voting and the possibility of expulsion if I break the law in a significant way. Privilege by your definition, implies immigrants should be afforded fewer rights than a citizen.  That is not the case here, nor is it, AFAIK, the case in the US.

You seem to desire precisely the same thing Putin wants... to run Russia and other satellite countries by abolishing rights and limiting freedoms of citizens and non-citizens.

[Chelseaboy]

EU is now sending Fighter Jets to Ukraine,which the Ukrainian pilots know how to fly.


According to news outlets in Israel,where he now lives,Chelsea FC owner Roman Abramovich is at the meeting between Ukraine and Russia delegates in Belarus today at Kyiv's request to try and broker a peace deal.


People are saying they can see a hollywood movie being made out of what is happening in Mariupol.
Russia expected to take it within  hours..and we're now in the 5th day of fighting there.


Berdyansk is the first city to fall to Russian forces.


Ukrainian forces are seriously delaying Russian forces entering Kiev..they have been attacking the armoured columns on the roads to Kiev breaking-up lines of communication with reports of chaos in the logistics.


According to the Ukraine President Russia has now lost 4,500 military personnel.


The Rouble has sunk to an all-time low.

[Chelseaboy]

Barrage of Russian grad missiles currently hitting Kharkiv apartment blocks,with dozens of civilians killed.


Shelling of Donetsk has intensified today also.


Mad Vlad the terrorist busy today then.

[Chelseaboy]

Sweden has broken neutrality and is sending 5000 anti-tank weapons to Ukraine.


Switzerland is joining the EU in sanctions against Russia.

[ML]

Wife is getting reports from friends and relatives that the Javelin is doing quite a job.

In some instances they have seen 20 or more tanks and large trucks lined up setting destroyed on roadways leading toward Kyiv.

[ML]

Wife understands better than me.

I mentioned to wife how it is a shame that other countries didn't earlier send the planes and weapons to Ukraine that they are now doing.

She said quite simple explanation:

Countries did not believe Ukraine would last very long, and didn't want all the weapons to end up in the hands of Russians.

[Chelseaboy]

Russia is being isolated in the Sporting World :
1. UEFA Championship in St Petersburg moved.
2. F1 GP being moved from Sochi plus Russian sponsors of one team kicked out.
3. Aeroflot has football sponsorship contract cancelled in UK.
4. Czech, Sweden refuse to play Russia in WC playoffs.
5. FIG suspends the Russians (and Belarusians) from participating in international competitions or from hosting any FIG championships.

Have I missed anything?

FIFA is now going to suspend Russia from all competitions.

[Jumper1]

Bee Farmer-
Having lived abroad in many countries long term,I am all too  familiar with the privilege granted by the host governments honoring a visa they issued ,and that they can certainly choose to revoke that visa at any time.


Fortunately none of them are prone to toddler like tantrums ,or likely to hold foreign workers in thier countries liable for the foreign policy decisions of their national.governments,as they recognize those can change on a dime.

Having the right to do something, doesn't always make it the right thing to do. This seems a concept that is easy for most to grasp.

You stating that the volume of foreign workers, students etc  in a country is irrelevant,simply shows your lack on understanding of again a very basic concept.

I'll agree it irrelevant to that countries legal rights to revoke visas.
So there you have a point  that noone was ever disputing. Well done.

There are several countries that would never throw such a toddler tantrum to do such,  even though its within their rights,,because  first, they recognize it is not the correct thing to do.
Second they recognize their entire economy and way of life of thier citizens would be devastated ,so from a pragmatic standpoint could not.


My apologies that things are not so clear cut and black and white in a global scenario,and that countries acting like toddlers and throwing such tantrums would quickly self destruct over many other issues if they cant think and act more clearly in general.

My Ukrainian wife would absolutely not agree that Russian visas be revoked here.It's riduculous.

In the end you can rant all you want, it's  the wrong thing to do, and it will not be done.


Get back to me when the usa revokes those here on  visas ok?
Otherwise  it's just wasted bandwidth.

[Chelseaboy]

Wife understands better than me.

I mentioned to wife how it is a shame that other countries didn't earlier send the planes and weapons to Ukraine that they are now doing.

She said quite simple explanation:

Countries did not believe Ukraine would last very long, and didn't want all the weapons to end up in the hands of Russians.

Yes that thought had crossed my mind too...they needed to know that Ukrainians would stand and fight,which they are.


Apparently,some earlier shipments of weapons sent to Ukraine before this year had ended up in the wrong hands.


Let's be honest,i expect most of us on here are on Ukraine's side over this war,but there's no denying they are a corrupt country..as is Russia of course.

[Chelseaboy]

To give us an idea what it's like for some/many ? of the Russian troops in Ukraine.


The Ukraine ambassador to the UN has released a text sent by a Russian soldier to his mother.


He's just read it out to the UN Assembly.


This is the gist of it .


"Mama it's terrible here..our troops are killing Ukrainian troops and civilians..we thought they wanted us here,but they are fighting and laying down their bodies in front of our Tanks and armoured vehicles to try and stop us advancing.I feel so bad Mama."


Several minutes later he was killed.

[Trenchcoat]

I hate to break it to you, but 100 years ago the US government realized that they had a better chance of winning wars if they let the dumber folks be cannon fodder, and your more intelligent folks become officers.  It doesn't work very well if you have idiots in charge, and the geniuses get used as cannon fodder.  (But you don't want them too dumb, or you can't even teach them how to be cannon fodder.)

The US military won't accept guys over 35 either, and I am past 35.

Whether you agree with it or not, there are people who have enough brains or resources that they can be of greater benefit in other ways than by being cannon fodder.

You're delusional. 
1. You're not affluent, and girls will realize that really quick.
2. Even if a girl did think you were affluent, she would not be looking for a long-term prospect.  She will be looking to see how much she can fleece you for, and how quickly.  But if you buy her a Ferrari, she might start thinking a little longer term.

3. If you wanted to turn the situation to your advantage, you would first be a good guy.  You would spend some of your affluence on helping rebuild, and taking care of people around you.  Then, good girls looking for a long-term prospect might take notice of you. 

We can all claim to be geniuses or too good to be used as cannon fodder. After all who would want to be cannon fodder? Those that are fighting in Ukraine at the moment feel that they have no choice. If some guy stood up and said he was too good for it then I would do the same also, everyone else might as well, then where would we be?

I'm not claiming that I would be the wealthiest guy around. I wouldn't even go out to get a girl on that basis I know it leads nowhere good. All I am saying is that I would look reasonably prosperous so more girls would consider me for dating. From there I can (hopefully) chose the best choice.

Though I guess I could well become the Carnegie of the Ukraine.

[GQBlues]

This American guy is inside Kyiv...shares his perspective of how this is really shaping in Ukraine.

There's a validity in what he's saying as to why Russian troops are circling and stopping 20 miles out of the major cities, including Kyiv.