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Author Topic: My new life in the Republic of Georgia  (Read 137676 times)

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Offline mendeleyev

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #750 on: January 15, 2019, 10:48:45 AM »
Cool, I'm not sure yet of the exact time line.

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Offline Cameraguy

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #751 on: January 19, 2019, 06:43:38 PM »
Hey my old buddy Maxx!


Killer thread, what an adventure. I stayed up half the night reading it.


Can't believe you packed it all up and moved to Georgia, where you didn't even know the culture or speak the language. I'm guessing you're a lot more fluent now. I remember after getting on a plane home after spending just a few months in Russia, I was never so happy to hear native English in my life. And these days, I couldn't even live somewhere that doesn't have a Costco and Trader Joe's!


Definitely takes balls to do what you're doing. Fortunately, your 6'4" Sicilian looks probably help in not getting messed with too much, but I'm sure there are plenty of day-to-day challenges and some occasional loneliness. Anything on the horizon with your love life?


Best of luck and keep us updated!


~CG


Online Maxx2

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #752 on: February 05, 2019, 07:31:50 AM »
Hey my old buddy Maxx!


Definitely takes balls to do what you're doing. Fortunately, your 6'4" Sicilian looks probably help in not getting messed with too much, but I'm sure there are plenty of day-to-day challenges and some occasional loneliness. Anything on the horizon with your love life?


Best of luck and keep us updated!


~CG



Thanks CG! It was great to hear from you again as well!


When I got Georgia 3 years and 3 months ago my biggest challenge was my weight. My doctors in the US said it was a certainty that my health would take a hard turn for the worse and I would have a short life. Having type II diabetes guaranteed it. So I did some online research on what country to move to, to have a less stressful life, and where I could work on my health (losing weight).


I visited am endocrinologist in Tbilisi. She told me something my American doctors didn't. She said that being a diabetic I couldn't lose weight. That didn't make any sense as my American doctors told me I should lose weight. NOBODY though told me how to do it.





(I don't know what happened to the top of my head in the photo!)


So I decided to do what I did before to lose weight. I joined a gym and ate a cleaner diet.





I hired Dato, the guy on the right, to be my personal trainer. After a month of working out and building up my endurance on the treadmill I lost almost nothing. The second month it didn't look too promising either.


What I found out is the doctor in Tbilisi was correct. Diabetics do not lose weight because they have insulin in their bodies almost at all times. Insulin a natural hormone, blocks fat burning. If you inject insulin, as I had been doing to lower my blood sugar, you actually gain weight. So it makes matters worse.


In my online research I heard a doctor say, "You don't lose weight to get healthy. You need to get healthy to lose weight". In other words to lose weight you need to kick the diabetes, to make it go away. Neither the doctors here in Georgia or in the US say that is possible.


I went on to a low carb, medium protein, high fat diet, or a Ketogenic diet. My diabetes went away almost right away. My weight is steadily dropping. So far I've lost 149 pounds, nine pounds of that in the last 2 weeks.


Women? I'll wait until I reach my goal weight of 220 pounds (100 kilos) before I put myself out there. I'm a one-thing at a time type of guy.


 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 07:33:24 AM by Maxx2 »

Offline Cameraguy

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #753 on: February 05, 2019, 12:36:54 PM »
Damn Maxx, is that really you on the billboard? Looks like the last face you'll ever see right before you get whacked. :) Hard to believe it's been 3 years and 3 months. Seems like you've become a local celebrity.


I have a friend who owns the Frito Lay concession on the Strip. I used to help him haul hundreds of boxes of Fritos, Cheetos, Doritos and every kind of crap you could imagine to hotel casino gift shops. When bags were damaged or out-of-date, guess what he ate, all day, every day? And what a surprise, he was also a Type II diabetic, with a blood sugar in the 400s.


I got him to watch a couple of documentaries, "Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead" and "Simply Raw: Reversing Diabetes in 30 Days." He followed the advice and after a couple months, his blood sugar dropped from the 400s to <100. He also went off insulin and hundreds of $$$/month in diabetes medications. Isn't it amazing that American doctors or even the American Diabetes Association *still* don't know about weight loss or how crucial diet is? All the "experts" who say diabetes can't be cured are just flat wrong.


The problem is, during medical school, would-be physicians are totally "indoctorinated" by Big Pharma. There's not much money to be made pushing raw veggies or the Keto diet. Which is why we're the only country in the world that allows those ridiculous, interminable Big Pharma commercials that spend half their time telling you all the ways it's gonna kill you. I'm not on a single medication and proud of it.


The one area where you differ from the (now dated) documentaries is your avoidance of *all* fruit juices and I think you're absolutely right. Fructose is not your friend. Keto is the way to go and your results speak for themselves. Not sure if you've looked into HIIT (high intensity interval training) but based on studies I've read, this mode of exercise also seems quite promising.


Thanks for the update!


~CG


P.S. On an entirely different note, I'd still like to hear your thoughts on Georgian women who remain virgins until marriage. Is it really common? When I hear guys talk about "traditional" FSUW (claptrap promulgated by the agencies), THIS is what comes to mind.  ;) 


« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 01:55:48 PM by Cameraguy »

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #754 on: February 05, 2019, 03:15:30 PM »

I went on to a low carb, medium protein, high fat diet, or a Ketogenic diet. My diabetes went away almost right away. My weight is steadily dropping. So far I've lost 149 pounds, nine pounds of that in the last 2 weeks.


 :applause: :applause: :applause: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:


And keep it off! 

Is it easy in Georgia to find restaurant menus consistent with a keto diet?     Or do you need to prepare most of the food yourself.   Is salo (Ukrainian seasoned lard) an acceptable dish? 

Online Maxx2

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #755 on: February 06, 2019, 11:10:19 PM »
Damn Maxx, is that really you on the billboard? Looks like the last face you'll ever see right before you get whacked. :) Hard to believe it's been 3 years and 3 months. Seems like you've become a local celebrity.


I have a friend who owns the Frito Lay concession on the Strip. I used to help him haul hundreds of boxes of Fritos, Cheetos, Doritos and every kind of crap you could imagine to hotel casino gift shops. When bags were damaged or out-of-date, guess what he ate, all day, every day? And what a surprise, he was also a Type II diabetic, with a blood sugar in the 400s.


I got him to watch a couple of documentaries, "Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead" and "Simply Raw: Reversing Diabetes in 30 Days." He followed the advice and after a couple months, his blood sugar dropped from the 400s to <100. He also went off insulin and hundreds of $$$/month in diabetes medications. Isn't it amazing that American doctors or even the American Diabetes Association *still* don't know about weight loss or how crucial diet is? All the "experts" who say diabetes can't be cured are just flat wrong.


The problem is, during medical school, would-be physicians are totally "indoctorinated" by Big Pharma. There's not much money to be made pushing raw veggies or the Keto diet. Which is why we're the only country in the world that allows those ridiculous, interminable Big Pharma commercials that spend half their time telling you all the ways it's gonna kill you. I'm not on a single medication and proud of it.


The one area where you differ from the (now dated) documentaries is your avoidance of *all* fruit juices and I think you're absolutely right. Fructose is not your friend. Keto is the way to go and your results speak for themselves. Not sure if you've looked into HIIT (high intensity interval training) but based on studies I've read, this mode of exercise also seems quite promising.


Thanks for the update!


~CG


P.S. On an entirely different note, I'd still like to hear your thoughts on Georgian women who remain virgins until marriage. Is it really common? When I hear guys talk about "traditional" FSUW (claptrap promulgated by the agencies), THIS is what comes to mind.  ;)


Actually that is not a billboard but a picture of my gym card taken with my cell phone. Not a celebrity yet, but definitely talked about around here. A month ago I got a text message from Aljara (region) public TV station asking me if I would be willing to do a film interview. They wanted to know why an American chose Batumi as a place to live. I haven't gotten back to them yet.


I am slightly pissed at the American Medical Association and the American Diabetes Association for not addressing the issue that diet can be used to cure diabetes. Frankly I think they have two reasons why they don't. First is they would have to admit their advice had been wrong all these years. And second they have the pressure of Big Agra and Big Pharma on them to keep the big money rolling in from all of us sick and dying people. 


The ideal early morning blood glucose (sugar) number is between 60 to 90. In the 110-130s you are pre-diabetic, and highly likely to get this disease. This morning my blood glucose number is






Day 173     

of my Ketogenic diet                              24 weeks 5 days
                                                      9:00 AM glucose reading:    74   41%~13.9 g/dL


I have been off of insulin for about a year. And off all medication since I started this diet on August 19th 2018. My blood glucose numbers usually stay under 100 through out the day. Under 100 I am burning fat for energy. The energy from fat burning is not glucose, but ketones. Ketones are much smaller than glucose and are more easily penetrating into the cells. When you go into ketosis you get MORE energy than when you are in the glucose burning mode. Ketones are super fuel! Ketones are particularly beneficial for those heading toward dementia as it goes past the blood brain barrier and starts feeding the brain. Dementia/Alzheimer's is actually diabetes of the brain.     


Fruit is not a bad thing unless you are a diabetic or pre-diabetic. Then the fructose (sugar) in fruit is going to spike your blood sugar. It used to be thought and it still is, that the nutriments in fruit will counter the negative effects of the sugar spike. It doesn't.


Here is a video from an American medical doctor entitled "Fruit is Evil" I think  she chose the title primarily because it would attract attention.





 

Online Maxx2

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #756 on: February 07, 2019, 08:51:40 AM »
:applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:


And keep it off! 

Is it easy in Georgia to find restaurant menus consistent with a keto diet?     Or do you need to prepare most of the food yourself.   Is salo (Ukrainian seasoned lard) an acceptable dish?


Thank you Gator! We go back a long way don't we! I remember the first time we talked on the phone and you told me you were a well known guy. That maybe I had heard of you. I heard your last name and thought "Oh My God! He was in my favorite 60s rock band! "The <insert last name> s" But I found out later you had authored a technical book well known in the industrial circles I was involved in. So no rock god but that's fine! :)


Georgian restaurants have some acceptable Keto foods to eat. Fish with tartar sauce is excellent as is barbecue chicken and pork. Greek salad with Georgian cheese on. Ordering it is something I am known for by the staff at the corner restaurant. That and a bottle of carbonated Barjomi spring water. And my 5 Lari tips (Big money here) make for very friendly waiters.


I do most of my own cooking. My mother taught me to cook at age 7 so I rather enjoy it.


Salo is excellent food! Six months ago I would never had thought so. But since then I learned a thing or two. Fat does not make you fat. In fact fat is your best friend if you want to lose weight. Fat keeps you from getting hungry. It releases a natural hormone in your body called cholecystokinin that cuts hunger.


Here is video by a plain talking guy whom I truly admire.




« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 08:53:15 AM by Maxx2 »

Offline ML

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #757 on: February 07, 2019, 10:11:51 PM »

I am slightly pissed at the American Medical Association and the American Diabetes Association for not addressing the issue that diet can be used to cure diabetes. Frankly I think they have two reasons why they don't. First is they would have to admit their advice had been wrong all these years. And second they have the pressure of Big Agra and Big Pharma on them to keep the big money rolling in from all of us sick and dying people. 

Maxx, sorry but this thinking is like people in tin hats who talk about being kidnapped by aliens, or that the government has implanted listening devices in their bodies, etc., etc.

If you just think a little more about this you would realize that there are thousands of doctors involved and it would be impossible to keep all of them quiet and suppress some info that could actually help people.

Think of doctors who devote their entire life to looking for cures for cancer, etc.
You think after all that time spent that they would then suppress info about cures?

Same holds true for those researching diabetes.

The results you are experiencing from your 'diet' just indicates you are an 'outlier' and it is unlikely that any significant proportion of diabetes sufferers could achieve similar results.

In fact, if there is any unethical thing going on in the field of medicine, it is those who tout unproven methods and medications to gain money from naive persons.
Individual 'ad hoc' results for some will never suffice to prove anything.

With the thousands of doctors and researchers involved . . . none of us should have the slightest worry that helpful methods will ever be withheld from us.
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #758 on: February 07, 2019, 11:25:47 PM »
Maxx, sorry but this thinking is like people in tin hats who talk about being kidnapped by aliens, or that the government has implanted listening devices in their bodies, etc., etc.

If you just think a little more about this you would realize that there are thousands of doctors involved and it would be impossible to keep all of them quiet and suppress some info that could actually help people.

Think of doctors who devote their entire life to looking for cures for cancer, etc.
You think after all that time spent that they would then suppress info about cures?

Same holds true for those researching diabetes.

The results you are experiencing from your 'diet' just indicates you are an 'outlier' and it is unlikely that any significant proportion of diabetes sufferers could achieve similar results.

In fact, if there is any unethical thing going on in the field of medicine, it is those who tout unproven methods and medications to gain money from naive persons.
Individual 'ad hoc' results for some will never suffice to prove anything.

With the thousands of doctors and researchers involved . . . none of us should have the slightest worry that helpful methods will ever be withheld from us.


Wow, you couldn't be more wrong. Wrong in your argumentative techniques of hyperbole and exaggeration of where I stand on these issues. It is called the straw man argument. I am not going 'ad hominem' on you.


 Also I am not an 'outlier'. Thousands of people are kicking their diabetes by limiting their carbohydrates to low levels. Watch this youtube video of nephrologist (kidney specialist) Dr Jason Fung and he can explain it all. Dr Fung is a doctors' doctor. He treats the patients that other doctors have given up on. 


   I realize your time is very, very valuable so watch from the 0:50 mark to 2:30 mark to get the gist of it. Type 2 diabetes can be cured but the American Medical Association and the American Diabetes Association says it can only be managed. 



« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 11:27:32 PM by Maxx2 »

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #759 on: February 08, 2019, 01:17:33 AM »



Here is another video by Doctor Fung


This guy deserves a Nobel Prize




He says the American Diabetes Association insists that type 2 diabetes is chronic and can't be cured. He says they are wrong and says why they are. If you are searching for truth then watch the video.


Anyone who has any contact with large organizations knows about something called "group think" and the pressure it can be put on you. Do we think Monsanto 'Big Agra' wouldn't insert pressure through their lobby to mold public opinion that their products are OK? Could you say the same for the 42.9 billion dollar diabetic insulin industry? ($42,900,000,000.00 ~ 2017 numbers)


I had a doctor level with me. He said, "We have given up on telling people to watch their diet. They want to eat donuts, so we give them insulin."


"The Swamp," is not only in D.C.  Saying that is a "conspiracy theory" and dismissing it out of hand is very dishonest intellectually.


http://www.psmarketresearch.com/market-analysis/human-insulin-market
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 01:20:09 AM by Maxx2 »

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #760 on: February 08, 2019, 02:38:27 AM »
"The increasing number of diabetic patients is expected to continue driving the growth of the human insulin market. The number of diabetic patients is rising at a fast pace, globally. It had risen from 108 million in 1980 to 422 million in 2014 and is expected to reach 592 million by 2035. According to the International Diabetes Federation (IDF), globally, 425 million people aged 20–79 years had diabetes in 2017, and this number is projected to reach 629 million by 2045. The surge in the number of diabetic patients is not restricted to developed countries but is also being witnessed in emerging countries. Thus, the growth in diabetes cases is expected to continue fueling the demand for HI solutions in the coming years."

Sounds like quite a growth industry. What could threaten it? The American Diabetes Association? Not a chance.

Offline Cameraguy

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #761 on: February 08, 2019, 04:20:14 PM »
Maxx, I'm with you 100%. As mentioned above, my friend reversed and I'll even say cured his Type II diabetes simply by changing his diet. I personally gave him the information and witnessed his entire transformation from diabetic to non-diabetic with my own two eyes. Blood sugar <100. No more insulin. No more diabetes drugs. And permanent.

I'm certain anyone could do the same, but as the doctor in your video says, most people don't have the desire or willpower. Easier to keep injecting insulin and taking Metformin. The doctor does what he knows best -- prescribes drugs and insurance usually pays for everything, so damn the side effects.

Hell, I'll even proudly don my tin foil hat and emphatically declare that if anyone thinks the only treatments for cancer are surgery, chemotherapy and radiation (aka cut, poison and burn), then they've never heard of a 1930s American scientific genius by the name of Royal Raymond Rife. Or perhaps the equally brilliant Belarusian inventor Georges Lakhovsky. Both invented electronic oscillator machines that transmit radio waves to create a "resonant frequency" that specifically destroys cancer cells, along with various other viruses and bacteria. Rife spent decades experimenting with a wide variety of frequencies, which he called the MOR, or mortal oscillatory rate.

There's even a '60 Minutes' segment about an American radio engineer who invented a similar frequency device that cured his own cancer. Funny, no mention of Royal Rife was ever made. My mother (who died of cancer) never believed me until she saw that '60 Minutes' segment. I'll never forget the call she made to me after watching it.

If you think the AMA (which is a trade and not a medical association) wouldnt ruthlessly suppress any invention or treatment that seriously threatens their livelihood and the zillion dollar Nixon-era "war on cancer", read the story of Royal Rife and think again...

~CG
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 10:40:08 PM by Cameraguy »

Online Maxx2

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #762 on: February 09, 2019, 12:12:13 AM »
It is real, real hard for people to accept they don't know everything and have been operating off misinformation. It is especially hard for people who are highly educated like doctors who are used to doing things a certain way.


Four months ago I seen woman doctor for a health check up. I told her my diabetes went away. She said that was impossible and got huffy with me when I told it was so. She got up from her chair and left the room. The doctors are like people in a religion. They don't want you to question their orthodoxy.

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #763 on: February 09, 2019, 10:50:22 AM »
It is real, real hard for people to accept they don't know everything and have been operating off
misinformation. It is especially hard for people who are highly educated like doctors who are used
to doing things a certain way.

Four months ago I seen woman doctor for a health check up. I told her my diabetes went away.
She said that was impossible and got huffy with me when I told it was so. She got up from her
chair and left the room. The doctors are like people in a religion. They don't want you to question
their orthodoxy.

Back in the day the clinical treatment of ulcers relied on dieting and antacids which were as effective
as placebo. In 1982 Australian physicians Robin Warren and Barry Marshall first identify the link between
Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori) and ulcers, concluding that the bacterium, not stress or diet, causes
ulcers.

1995 Data show that about 75 percent of ulcer patients are still treated primarily with antisecretory
medications, and only 5 percent receive antibiotic therapy.

1996 The Food and Drug Administration approves the first antibiotic for treatment of ulcer
disease.

My point is that the medical industry is very slow to change, but eventually they did.
You've got your health and your life back due to the fact that you took matters into your
own hands. The Medical industry is VERY slow to make changes, part of that is the big
pharma and part of that is that the Medical industry is slow to change their minds about
anything.

FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

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Hit by a garbage truck
« Reply #764 on: Yesterday at 12:33:52 AM »



My daughter just informed me that her mother got hit by a garbage truck, totaled her car and broke her sternum.

Quote
"Mom got in a bad car accident, hit by a garbage truck, totaled her car and broke her sternum. This happened Friday morning and she was released from the hospital Sunday afternoon. She’s feeling better and was yelling at me and H all day on Monday, so her spirits are back!"




If you knew the history there between her and me you might see some irony in there...


In 2016 I was hit by a semi tractor trailer. The double-trailer kind.





'82 Cadillac Eldorado


It put me in the hospital for 3 weeks and after into a nursing home for 5 weeks learning to walk again. The day after the accident the ex went to her attorney to see if she could collect some of the money she anticipated I would get in a coming lawsuit. Based on her a lifetime spousal maintenance agreement she had with me. She was told she couldn't. 'Pain and suffering' settlements can't be touched. So I am sure she has visited her attorney by now about getting hit by a garbage truck. They are eager to get their cut of a lawsuit settlement. Lawyers are killing America.
 
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:30:19 AM by Maxx2 »

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #765 on: Yesterday at 02:26:42 AM »
Back in the day the clinical treatment of ulcers relied on dieting and antacids which were as effective
as placebo. In 1982 Australian physicians Robin Warren and Barry Marshall first identify the link between
Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori) and ulcers, concluding that the bacterium, not stress or diet, causes
ulcers.

1995 Data show that about 75 percent of ulcer patients are still treated primarily with antisecretory
medications, and only 5 percent receive antibiotic therapy.

1996 The Food and Drug Administration approves the first antibiotic for treatment of ulcer
disease.

My point is that the medical industry is very slow to change, but eventually they did.
You've got your health and your life back due to the fact that you took matters into your
own hands. The Medical industry is VERY slow to make changes, part of that is the big
pharma and part of that is that the Medical industry is slow to change their minds about
anything.


Proud highly educated people are usually the last to re-examine their opinions and beliefs. They usually go along with the collective wisdom of their peers. We really have to check things out ourself.

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My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #766 on: Yesterday at 12:04:20 PM »
Women? I'll wait until I reach my goal weight of 220 pounds (100 kilos) before I put
myself out there. I'm a one-thing at a time type of guy.

I imagine if the right girl popped up out of the blue and you still had 3 lbs
to go that you wouldn't kick her totally to the curb  ;D

I do think that getting yourself right; physically, mentally and spiritually make
you a far better catch and you will have a better outlook, more confidence, and
that many less things to distract you. You will have to beat them off with a stick. 
 
Udachi!

Bill
FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #767 on: Yesterday at 12:52:23 PM »
I imagine if the right girl popped up out of the blue and you still had 3 lbs
to go that you wouldn't kick her totally to the curb  ;D

I do think that getting yourself right; physically, mentally and spiritually make
you a far better catch and you will have a better outlook, more confidence, and
that many less things to distract you. You will have to beat them off with a stick. 
 
Udachi!

Bill


I wouldn't kick her to the curb now at my present weight and it is a lot more than three pounds to goal.  :D 


I had an acquaintance from Tbilisi recently visit me. He said he noticed nobody gives me a second look. Or stares at me like they used to. He said I just look like "a normal overweight Georgian guy."

Online SteveInBoston

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Re: My new life in the Republic of Georgia
« Reply #768 on: Yesterday at 03:55:53 PM »
Maxx,

You're not entirely cured.  Whatever condition that triggered your type 2 diabetes is still there.  You are managing it with your diet.  But you're not fully cured.  Once you switch to normal meals (for others, that is), your diabetes will return.

It is great that you are maintaining your diet and keeping your blood sugar and weight low.

I have gout.  There is no medicine or surgery that can cure it.  My genetics doesn't process nitrogen proteins well, so my blood contains elevated levels of uric acid.  I suffered for years, getting gout attacks every few months.  All doctors except my last one just prescribed pain killers and gave me a list of certain meats to avoid (along with alcohol).

The last doctor was a specialist.  On my second visit, after he reviewed my case and test results, told me that although my condition cannot be cured, he could guarantee I would never have another gout attack.  By medication or by diet control and exercise.  He said only one of his patients had the determination and will power to make the diet/exercise regiment work.

He spent about 2 years with me, adjusting the medication level after reviewing test results at each visit.  He monitored not only the uric acid level in my blood but also protein and enzyme levels in my liver and kidneys to achieve the right dosage that reduced uric acid and kept the organs healthy.

That was 10 years ago, and he was right - I haven't had a gout attack since.  I take 2 pills a day.  3 months supply (180 pills) from Costco is $18 - full price without insurance.

 

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