How important is it for her to Speak English

[Turboguy]

Ronin,  Nice story.  I enjoyed that and wish you the best of luck.  I hope the visa comes through faster.  I remember how hard the waiting was.   Thanks to for the update on fire engines.

jb,  I don't really think PeeWee is going to loose any sleep over the thought of you may question something he says.

PeeWee,  Thanks, good thinking there.  Yes, I am sure I would like to see my mission accomplished but I am happy with the progress. 

Some of you guys sound like you think I am targeting gals with no English which I am not.  I can see some advantages to that but I think the disadvantages are much greater.  What I am targeting is the gal that I think is right for me.  I would like her to know English.  If I think I have found her and she does not, I don't plan to let that stop me unless the lack of common language is a killer on it's own.

[BC]

Now one last comment.   Since the subject is the importance of sharing a common language and I am saying it is a 6 or 7 and you are saying I am an idiot that it is even worse than a 9-10.  It is impossible.  tell me this Mr wise person.  How come 6-7 was the most popular opinion in the poll?

Thats easy... because there was no 8.

[Vaughn]

Ditto. No 8. The poll offered no choice such as
difficulty factor 8: situation extremely tenuous,
lack of common language will not only create problems,
but render it difficult to address them. Rare is the
couple that can overcome these slim odds....

I had to vote no way.

[Turboguy]

Well I have to admit if the poll would have been   4-5-6   then 7-8, then 9-10  I would have voted for 7-8    Oh well, it was my first poll.  I will have to remember when I am setting up a poll and counting my fingers to make sure I get all the numbers to rember to count the finger I am picking my nose with too.

[Photo Guy]

A number of guys think that it IS actually possible to judge a women, when her English skills
are ...far from perfect, even bad.  I agree with that. We can agree to disagree.
There are a number of guys here who have chosen women with bad English skills
and have taken their relationship all the way to the point of marriage.  Looking at those
particular relationships, it is logical to conclude that those situations can work out,
resulting in a 'successful' marriage, whatever that is. (topic for another discussion)

You can bring forth the idea that better English skills will result in a more successful
'union', but where are the statistics? We should not pretend that the language barrier
is a problem that cannot be overcome.

Leslie, why did you pick her? You chose her, even though her Engish was not
very good. True?  My point is that there are other signs, other considerations that
can override the language issue. Am I wrong? (keep in mind that I was once a ''hero
member'.) <wink>   

[Photo Guy]

jb's criticism of Turboguy. Okay, according to your logic, a guy (TG) who requires a lot of time
to find the woman of his dreams, must be making mistakes, in contrast to a guy who finds that
woman in a short period.

I'm sorry, jb. You are slicing the bologna too thin and I am not buying it. It's a severe judgment
and not very logical. Everyone (except you) knows that part of the equation is the random
element of interacting with the 'right' woman. Add to the mix the fact that some guys
would be happy with just about ANY woman and some guys are very particular. That is
their perogative. We do not need to hear someone preaching about how some guy is
going about it all wrong. I've read Turboguy's trip reports and what precisely are you saying
he is doing 'wrong'? He is investigating a relatively large number of women. Is that a mistake?
Was he wrong to take Luda seriously? How could YOU possibley know? Were you present
during his interactions with her? When a relationship does not work out, it is nature's way of
preventing a 'bad combination'.  According to jb, every effort, every investigation, every
experience must conclude with marital bliss or some ideal pot of gold. Well, you are wrong.

[KenC]

Photo, Photo, Photo,
Your arguments never change.  You first use generalizations in referring to "a number of guys" have had successful marriages to women that couldn't speak English.  Hmm, "a number of guys?"  Kind of vague, don't you think?  But then you insist that jb provide you with statistics regarding men that were successful marrying women with a common language.  Hmmm, different rules depending on what side you are debating, don't you think? 

There are no statistics for this stuff and you should know that, but let us use this forum as a sampling for this topic.  Almost every man married for any amount of time here had a common language with his wife at the beginning of their relationship.  Let me start with myself, jb, BC, Leslie, Dan, Vaughn, Ken (the other one), Doug Salem, Conner,  Donaz, Jet and the list could go on and on.  Where are "the number of guys" that succeeded in marriage without the common language?  Name them please.  The one that comes to my mind might be Clyde, but his wife did have some English skills and his marriage is still rather fresh to be considered a "success."  It is usually the guys that have yet to find someone that take your stance.  Hmm, something to think about.

I also disagree with your take on Turbo (and I bet that surprises you too LOL)  There is a point where being highly selective crosses into "unrealistic expectations" don't you think?  I also think your statement:

the fact that some guys would be happy with just about ANY woman

is offensive to every single married man reading this forum.  I know I was offended by it.  Do you think every married man just accepted the first RW that would have him?  I do think it is reasonable to question a man's methods if he has been searching for a wife for over ten years and has been to fsu countries on hundreds(?) of trips and has spent tens of thousands of dollars and has come up empty handed.  "Unrealistic expectations" would be my guess.  Hell, I went to Russia just to meet a woman without ever planning to be married and I still struck gold.
KenC

[PeeWee]

There are a number of guys here who have chosen women with bad English skills
and have taken their relationship all the way to the point of marriage. 

From what I  have read on other postings not only bad English but bad teeth as well.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

I also disagree with your take on Turbo (and I bet that surprises you too LOL)  There is a point where being highly selective crosses into "unrealistic expectations" don't you think?  I also think your statement:
is offensive to every single married man reading this forum.  I know I was offended by it.  Do you think every married man just accepted the first RW that would have him?  I do think it is reasonable to question a man's methods if he has been searching for a wife for over ten years and has been to fsu countries on hundreds(?) of trips and has spent tens of thousands of dollars and has come up empty handed.  "Unrealistic expectations" would be my guess.  Hell, I went to Russia just to meet a woman without ever planning to be married and I still struck gold.
KenC

Unrealistic expections are what spawns champions; Lombardi, Valvano, Landry, Riley, Paterno, I could list 100 taskmasters who had established unrealistic expections for those that they mentored. A higher than average expections; Steve Young, Bill Russell, Lance Armstrong, and again another list of 100. Sports figures are easy targets. Brilliant expectations; Einstein, Bell, Di Vinci, and another 100 cut from the same cloth. Expectations that exceeded that which most only dreamed about; Morgan, Rockefeller, Trump, Ford, Gates.

I have no patience for waiting. I need to get from point A to point B ASAP. Turbo likes to meander. To wander. To soaking it all in. I see nothing wrong with him having standards set so high that he many never find that which he seeks. That is his way and I respect that, but is not my way.

For every 1,000 men that may find a penny, ten will find  a nugget of gold, and only one will find a diamond. If all 1,000 could find the diamond then the value of a diamond would be but that of a penny. Anyone can find a penny very quickly, it takes a bit more of a time investment to find a gold nugget, and even more to find a diamond. Turbo will settle for a diamond while the rest of use have or will settle for gold.

Peewee

[BC]

For every 1,000 men that may find a penny, ten will find  a nugget of gold, and only one will find a diamond. If all 1,000 could find the diamond then the value of a diamond would be but that of a penny. Anyone can find a penny very quickly, it takes a bit more of a time investment to find a gold nugget, and even more to find a diamond. Turbo will settle for a diamond while the rest of use have or will settle for gold.

PeeWee,

That's fine and good but one needs to be able to recognize a diamond in the rough from a glimmering shard of glass, or a real nugget from fools gold.  Even when luck is on their side and something real is found it might still get tossed, confident that a bigger, better one will be found.

[PeeWee]

PeeWee,

That's fine and good but one needs to be able to recognize a diamond in the rough from a glimmering shard of glass, or a real nugget from fools gold.  Even when luck is on their side and something real is found it might still get tossed, confident that a bigger, better one will be found.

Amen, my brother. Lena told me the other day how illogical our American "catch and release" approach to fishing is. To her fish is food and nothing more than that so what spend all of our effort to catch something that can be eaten only to release it? Tubro is running his own brand of catch and release, the way I have it figured. From the sportman's point of view he is doing just fine. From the commercial fisherman's point of view he has it all wrong. Point of view is from where this debate comes.

Peewee

[jb]

P/G;

There are a number of guys here who have chosen women with bad English skills
and have taken their relationship all the way to the point of marriage.  Looking at those
particular relationships, it is logical to conclude that those situations can work out,
resulting in a 'successful' marriage, whatever that is.

Gimme a list of all these married guys. 

I'm aware that there are any number of RWs who, once here, have gone back to school and taken ESL to improve their English skills for the work place, but other than Clyde I don't know of any other guys who asked a girl with zero English to marry and have made it through the whole process.  When I say "zero English" I mean a woman who is unable to hold even a simple conversation, i.e., a woman with an English vocabulary of less than 100 words.  "Hi and Bye, please and thank you" does not constitute "having some English".  Being able to sit down in a restaurant and order from the menu, constitutes having some English, being able to ask direction, and understanding how to proceed, constitutes having some English.

 I got the "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post."  I notice KenC has posted essentially the same thought.  You ask that I be held to a much higher standard when you demand "statistics" from me, yet at the same time you are allowed to "prove" your point with wide generalities.  That doesn't hardly seem fair, does it?

The problem I have with guys like Turbo is that while they profess to not be willing to pursue a woman with poor English themselves, they continue to argue that it's an OK idea for someone else to do it.  In doing so they justify bad decisions and give bad advice. These are the Rah-Rah cheerleaders who encouraged you to "do your own thing", "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead", these are the same guys who chide me for telling you the truth.  I knew virtually from the outset that you were a train wreck looking for a place to happen, I also knew you really didn't want advice when you came to the board, you really only wanted approval.   I, and others, tried to warn you.   Even if there were a 1% success rate for this sort of relationship, that certainly doesn't mean everyone should try it.  The flip side of that means that 99% who enter into such a relationship will probably end up with egg on their face.  You wound up wearing the whole omelet.

I had sincerely hoped that after your experience you would not tell others that which I'm seeing from you here.  "Hey! Just because it didn't work for me doesn't mean it won't work for you."  Or; "I've been through it, it's really hard and I couldn't cut it, but you should try it."  By saying such things you are continuing a cycle of bad advice to the new guys. That's what I think is sad.

[BC]

Amen, my brother. Lena told me the other day how illogical our American "catch and release" approach to fishing is. To her fish is food and nothing more than that so what spend all of our effort to catch something that can be eaten only to release it? Tubro is running his own brand of catch and release, the way I have it figured. From the sportman's point of view he is doing just fine. From the commercial fisherman's point of view he has it all wrong. Point of view is from where this debate comes.

Peewee

Well we went from women to gems and now fish.. I have the feeling this line of thought can only digress.  Considering your early 'bad teeth' comments I get the feeling you don't hold womenkind in very high regard.

[tbelknap]

Well we went from women to gems and now fish.. I have the feeling this line of thought can only digress.  Considering your early 'bad teeth' comments I get the feeling you don't hold womenkind in very high regard.

What was the topic of this thread again? 

Sounds like there are some bad gamblers here.  Anything is possible but what are the odds of having a successful relationship with someone you cannot communicate with.  Would you take those odds in Vegas?  If so then I have some land to sell you.

To me arguing that it is possible is a mute point.  Sure anything is possible but the odds are against you.  I don't understand how people can argue otherwise.

[wiz]

What was the topic of this thread again? 

Sounds like there are some bad gamblers here.  Anything is possible but what are the odds of having a successful relationship with someone you cannot communicate with.  Would you take those odds in Vegas?  If so then I have some land to sell you.

To me arguing that it is possible is a mute point.  Sure anything is possible but the odds are against you.  I don't understand how people can argue otherwise.

Some people try to justify their failures.

Anybody with common sense  will understand the fact that you have better chances of succeeding when you can communicate with the woman adequately.

Some people like Turbo maybe like the idea of chasing women (Rainbows) and probably enjoys the travelling. Obviously he has the money to spend so good luck to him. Personally I would have given up after 3-4 years.

Turbo, with so much free time in your hands I would have thought it would be more satisfying for you if you would write about all your travels and create a nice travel guide to all destinations you visited, which of course it would be helpful to other readers here. I have not gone back to read all your travel reports but you could put them together as a blogg! You never know, probably you could publish it and recover some of the money you have spend!

Writing daily so many posts about the same subjects or variations of these themes I don't think is very satisfying! But then I am probably wrong!

I agree with JB's comments about PhotoGuy. The whole venture was doomed from the start!

[wiz]

OK Boys

Time for you to update your Profile........look at the left above the Avatar.

Dan has created a new field.......

Married to RW?

DAN ...That is wrong....it should be FSUW..... Leslie is married to Ukrainian woman!

So you have to choose your status......I am looking 0-2 years!

Dan

I think you should create 1 more field:

Visits to FSU:
Let us type the number of visits there........so Manchester who never visited Lviv can not talk about pretty women there....unlike me...... Sorry MAN....lol

[Turboguy]

Photo, Photo, Photo,
Your arguments never change.  You first use generalizations in referring to "a number of guys" have had successful marriages to women that couldn't speak English.  Hmm, "a number of guys?"  Kind of vague, don't you think?  But then you insist that jb provide you with statistics regarding men that were successful marrying women with a common language.  Hmmm, different rules depending on what side you are debating, don't you think? 

Photo Guys ideas are quite on, they just don't agree with yours Ken.  I know a lot of people who have done it with no common language and it did not let them stop them. 

There are no statistics for this stuff and you should know that, but let us use this forum as a sampling for this topic.  Almost every man married for any amount of time here had a common language with his wife at the beginning of their relationship. 

I also disagree with your take on Turbo (and I bet that surprises you too LOL)  There is a point where being highly selective crosses into "unrealistic expectations" don't you think?  I also think your statement:
is offensive to every single married man reading this forum.  I know I was offended by it.  Do you think every married man just accepted the first RW that would have him?  I do think it is reasonable to question a man's methods if he has been searching for a wife for over ten years and has been to fsu countries on hundreds(?) of trips and has spent tens of thousands of dollars and has come up empty handed.  "Unrealistic expectations" would be my guess. 

I have to plead guilty here.  I know some of you think I am a hard headed guy who never learns.  I did go through my period of unrealistic expectations which had followed a period of going though shoppers frenzy.  (excuse the word "shoppers",  it is not accurate just the closest thing I can think of to describe the phenomena)

When I first started a serious persuit of an FSU woman back around 95 or 96 I was primarily using a magazine called Club Prima that listed photos and Bios of RW along with another called Latin-Euro introductions.  There was no internet in those days so when I got a new issue I would break out my word processor and snail mail often 100 or more gals who appealed to me.  The gals I was writing seemed phenomenal.  I remember one issue of Club Prima where they had a collage of the prettiest gals on the cover and I was corresponding with 60% of the cover gals.  It was a little like wanting to buy a new shirt and walking into a store that had 10,000 shirts in your size.  The shear volume of stunning gals was so overwhelming it got very confusing and you had a tendency to be afraid to pick one for fear you might get be missing a better one.  I have already mentioned a couple of times I have always kicked myself for passing on one in Kiev.  Of the ones I met in those days she was the only one I have ever kicked myself over.

As far as the unrealistic expectations.  Yes, I am guilty of that too.  Back in the snail mail days I had lots of letters from gals who were beautiful and seemed sincere and interested.  Probably my expectations were unrealistic.  It is something you never know until you try.  There was no RWD to educate me in those days.  I took their letters at face value.  It was a mistake.  More learning process.

Personally I do not see my expectations at this point as being unrealistic at all.  Having a wife is not the goal.  Doing a K-1 is not the goal.  I just got chewed out in an e-mail today because I have not started a K-1 with the gal who visited me in LA  (actually she didn't chew me out she said she was very disappointed because our relationship had not gone anywhere)  (We have now had 3 visits and about 25 days together and had 6 more planned on the trip I had to cancel for health reasons)  The goal is to find someone right for me and who I am right for and to build a happy marriage. 

Hell, I went to Russia just to meet a woman without ever planning to be married and I still struck gold.

You may have struck gold Ken, but it also means you have not a scrap of experience at what PG, PeeWee, myself and many others are trying to do yet you have no hesitation in trying to say we are doing it wrong and proclaiming yourself as an expert.KenC

[Turboguy]

The problem I have with guys like Turbo is that while they profess to not be willing to pursue a woman with poor English themselves, they continue to argue that it's an OK idea for someone else to do it.  In doing so they justify bad decisions and give bad advice.

First off, I never said I was not willing to persue a woman with bad English and I have stated that is can be a large problem and it is not right for everyone.  My statement has always been that I "prefer" to find a gal with good English skills.  I look much more at the quality of the person than their English skills.   Actually on the trip I had to cancel in Ukriane 3 of the 4 gals I was meeting had excellent English and the 4th had no Enlgish.   On the Russian part of my trip one of the gals, my taxi driver friend had no English at all and the others had good English.  Personally I find it hard to develop much raport with gals with no English but I don't totally rule them out.  Sometimes the gals with "no" English surprise you with how much they do know.
I had sincerely hoped that after your experience you would not tell others that which I'm seeing from you here.  "Hey! Just because it didn't work for me doesn't mean it won't work for you."  Or; "I've been through it, it's really hard and I couldn't cut it, but you should try it."  By saying such things you are continuing a cycle of bad advice to the new guys. That's what I think is sad.

Frankly I am not sure any of us, you included, can give advice.  I think most of what is said here is really just opinions.  Sometimes we can learn more from the mistakes of someone giving it their best shot and not succeeding than we can from the opinions of someone who has never done it.

[Turboguy]

Well we went from women to gems and now fish.. I have the feeling this line of thought can only digress.  Considering your early 'bad teeth' comments I get the feeling you don't hold womenkind in very high regard.

Perhaps he just doesn't hold FSU dentistry and the lack of floride in the water in high regard.  It seems to me there have been a lot of discussions about the teeth problems in the FSU.  PeeWee is just stating a fact of life.  I think part of what he said was intended as a joke but some people don't have much of a sense of humor.

[Turboguy]

Amen, my brother. Lena told me the other day how illogical our American "catch and release" approach to fishing is. To her fish is food and nothing more than that so what spend all of our effort to catch something that can be eaten only to release it? Tubro is running his own brand of catch and release, the way I have it figured. From the sportman's point of view he is doing just fine. From the commercial fisherman's point of view he has it all wrong. Point of view is from where this debate comes.

Peewee

I agree with a lot of the things you say PeeWee but I don't think my program is "catch and release"  I also don't think like some of the others that I am looking for a trophy to have mounted and hang on the wall.  I do agree that I am doing just fine.   Sometimes things fall into place quickly, sometimes they take a little more time.

[Turboguy]

What was the topic of this thread again? 

Sounds like there are some bad gamblers here.  Anything is possible but what are the odds of having a successful relationship with someone you cannot communicate with.  Would you take those odds in Vegas?  If so then I have some land to sell you.

Thanks for the explaination.  I had been wondering why Vegas is such a ghost town any more and no one goes there.  Now I know that no one will take those odds.

Life is a gamble.  Crossing the street is a gamble.

[Turboguy]

Some people try to justify their failures.
 
The only people who never fail are those who never try.   

Anybody with common sense  will understand the fact that you have better chances of succeeding when you can communicate with the woman adequately.

Communication is not necessarily related to language skills.  Communication is about sharing what is in your mind and your heart and can be done with a translation program.  Go back a few pages and re-read my post about my ex wife who had very good English skills.  I was never so lonely in my life as I was when I was with her.

Some people like Turbo maybe like the idea of chasing women (Rainbows) and probably enjoys the travelling. Obviously he has the money to spend so good luck to him. Personally I would have given up after 3-4 years.

I was never so happy as when I deluded myself to think I had found what I wanted with Luda and could give up chasing women.  I think you are only a year away from the three year mark youself so remember if it doesn't work this your you want to hang it up.  Quitters never win.

Turbo, with so much free time in your hands I would have thought it would be more satisfying for you if you would write about all your travels and create a nice travel guide to all destinations you visited, which of course it would be helpful to other readers here. I have not gone back to read all your travel reports but you could put them together as a blogg! You never know, probably you could publish it and recover some of the money you have spend!

If I had PeeWees or Groovs gift of writing perhaps I would.  I am sure a travel guide to the museams in Perm would be on top of the best seller list.

Writing daily so many posts about the same subjects or variations of these themes I don't think is very satisfying! But then I am probably wrong!

Then tell me if you think it is so bad, why you do it.

I agree with JB's comments about PhotoGuy. The whole venture was doomed from the start!

Perhaps it was.  Some things you have to find out for yourself, sometimes the hard way.  You can also spend your life kicking yourself for not trying something that you really want.  If the experts here would have tried to be more helpful and less hurtful it might have done more good but let's not get back into that.

[KenC]

Turbo.

I know a lot of people who have done it with no common language and it did not let them stop them. 

OK, you are into generalizing your facts like Photo did in his post.  I rattled off maybe ten guys that seem to have good long term marriages when they had a common language, name some that didn't please.

Having a wife is not the goal.  Doing a K-1 is not the goal

Just what is your goal?

You may have struck gold Ken, but it also means you have not a scrap of experience at what PG, PeeWee, myself and many others are trying to do yet you have no hesitation in trying to say we are doing it wrong and proclaiming yourself as an expert

I don't follow your logic (oh what a surprise  )  I was successful in transgressing the treacherous waters involved with the process of finding, romancing, relocating, marrying, going through the her transition to a different culture and staying happily married to a RW for 7 years.  Nah, I don't know nothin 
KenC

[PeeWee]

Well we went from women to gems and now fish.. I have the feeling this line of thought can only digress.  Considering your early 'bad teeth' comments I get the feeling you don't hold womenkind in very high regard.

A woman is the female counter part of a man. I hold them in the same regard. Not more and not less. The teeth issue is seperate. How many postings have we read where some guy is complaining about the bad dentistry that their wives and girlfriends have and the expense that they must bear to correct it. I have never heard in all of my life that same complaint come from one of my friends about their AW or AG. Hence the reason for my comment.

I said it before, I am checking the condition of her teeth and gums before I make my final decision. Even with horses we check their teeth, do we not? Ever buy a used car and not have a mechanic put his blessing on its mechanical condition. A ship's hull is surveyed and a home appraised all before sale. And men and women are exempt from this? Does not a part of her visa process require a medical exam? Some one thought to look. That is all I am saying.

Peewee

[jb]

I said it before, I am checking the condition of her teeth and gums before I make my final decision. Even with horses we check their teeth, do we not?

*groan*