What might Have Been

[tim 360]

Hey Corp,  It seems you are quite smitten with the lady and sometimes the best approach is the easiest one.  Just send her some flowers and a note with all your contact info and maybe a SASE.  I am neither encouraging nor discouraging you in your quest,  but this seems like a very simple way to know just what her interests are,  Cheerio, Tim360

[KenC]

Some thoughts on this thread (whether you want em or not)

Corp,
I'm going to give you a little different perspective on your "shop girl."  Nothing much really transpired between the two of you in all reality.  Most of what you are imagining is in your own mind.  I think that this girl gave you a sense of hope after a very disappointing trip and that is about it.  Follow up with a local terp, but don't hold your breath awaiting some romantic outcome.

On "shop girls"-
Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there are different levels in every social structure.  And there will be some that will look down at others that have obtained a level lower than their own. Ironically, it is usually those with marginal status that typically look down at others.

The sad truth is that there are many Russian "shop girls" that have had a very good education, but find that the financial rewards in the shop are better than their chosen field.  These "misplaced" shop girls probably could handle the transition to a different country and culture.

Then you have "temporary" shop girls that are working in a shop while they are continuing their education or preparing for an better job opportunity.  Again, I think that a "temp" shop girl might be a fine candidate for relocation.

That might leave us with a "true" shop girl.  This would be a woman that has a lower education and much lower life's goals as she is satisfied with low level employment.  Take into consideration that "shop girls" are very much looked down upon in the Russian culture.  Being a "shop girl" in Russia is a very low level occupation.  This woman would not make a very good candidate for relocating to a foreign country.  First of all with her low expectations and lack of drive, she would probably not even be the slightest interested in a project of that magnitude.  Secondly, if she has landed on the lower tier of her own culture's social structure, she is sure to be overwhelmed by one foreign to her.  This does not make the "shop girl" any less valuable as a person, she just is not very likely to want to relocate or to be able to handle such a transition smoothly.

Is it fair to consider the potential mates social status in the selection process?  Damn right it is.  And if you don't, then you could be making a huge error.  You had damn well better match up or you could be heading for trouble.  God bless Bruno for being a nice guy, but he is a rather simple man.  This doesn't mean he is stupid or lazy or anything negative.  Just that he leads a rather simple unsophisticated life.  How would a highly educated urban career woman from Moscow match up with his lifestyle?  I say, not very well.

When my wife Lena, first arrived, one of my concerns was as to how she would mesh with my lifestyle.  It wasn't her social status that was an issue as much as it was an age issue.  How she fit in to my country club crowd and how she handled business dinner meetings was a concern of mine.  Was it because I was (am) a snob?  No. it is because THAT WAS MY LIFESTLE.  It doesn't make me better than Bruno, just different.

Most of the men involved in this process are middleaged professionals.  If you think that a shop girl or for that matter a village girl is going to easily slip into your lifestyle, then you have another thing coming.
KenC

(Note to Turbo-Before you go on and on about how it could be possible, just know that I am talking about things that are probable.)

[tim 360]

I find their is no reason to demean a person working in a shop,  it is an elitist snobbism which only a small mind can espouse.

Years ago there was a very nice girl working part time a local store.  Intelligent, very cute, friendly,  with great poise and although I was sorely tempted to ask her out I refrained.  We would talk it up and she was studying to be an actress.  The summer passed and she was gone and from time to time I would recall her.  Couple years passed and I went to the movies and I saw her again,  up on the big screen.   A few years older and one hell of an actress with her share of Oscars.  A shop girl can always move on to bigger and better things.  Ifs, shoulda's and maybes.

[tim 360]

It may appear I was replying to KenC's post but I had not seen it since I was typing while he was posting.  He has some very valid points and knows more about Russian shop girls than do I.

[Turboguy]

Some thoughts on this thread (whether you want em or not)

Hey, that is what RWD is about, sharing ideas even if we don't always agree with them.  I, for one am always happy to see your thoughts on a subject.
Corp,
I'm going to give you a little different perspective on your "shop girl."  Nothing much really transpired between the two of you in all reality.  Most of what you are imagining is in your own mind.  I think that this girl gave you a sense of hope after a very disappointing trip and that is about it.  Follow up with a local terp, but don't hold your breath awaiting some romantic outcome.

I have to agree, keep your hopes in check but follow up with a local terp.  You have little to loose and much to gain and if it doesn't work out you can move on with a clear mind.

On "shop girls"-
Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there are different levels in every social structure.  And there will be some that will look down at others that have obtained a level lower than their own. Ironically, it is usually those with marginal status that typically look down at others.

There is probably a lot of truth in that but don't know if it does or doesn't fit Andrewfin.

The sad truth is that there are many Russian "shop girls" that have had a very good education, but find that the financial rewards in the shop are better than their chosen field.  These "misplaced" shop girls probably could handle the transition to a different country and culture.

Then you have "temporary" shop girls that are working in a shop while they are continuing their education or preparing for an better job opportunity.  Again, I think that a "temp" shop girl might be a fine candidate for relocation.

That might leave us with a "true" shop girl.  This would be a woman that has a lower education and much lower life's goals as she is satisfied with low level employment.  Take into consideration that "shop girls" are very much looked down upon in the Russian culture.  Being a "shop girl" in Russia is a very low level occupation. 

Don't know if it is true or not but I have heard many times that Doctors and Nurses are also looked down on as a low level occupation there.

This woman would not make a very good candidate for relocating to a foreign country.  First of all with her low expectations and lack of drive, she would probably not even be the slightest interested in a project of that magnitude.  Secondly, if she has landed on the lower tier of her own culture's social structure, she is sure to be overwhelmed by one foreign to her.  This does not make the "shop girl" any less valuable as a person, she just is not very likely to want to relocate or to be able to handle such a transition smoothly.

Nice way of putting it.  You are showing your few of people to be lightyears ahead of Andrewfin.  

Is it fair to consider the potential mates social status in the selection process?  Damn right it is.  And if you don't, then you could be making a huge error.  You had damn well better match up or you could be heading for trouble.  God bless Bruno for being a nice guy, but he is a rather simple man.  This doesn't mean he is stupid or lazy or anything negative.  Just that he leads a rather simple unsophisticated life.  How would a highly educated urban career woman from Moscow match up with his lifestyle?  I say, not very well.

I have to agree, she probably would not match up with me too well either.

When my wife Lena, first arrived, one of my concerns was as to how she would mesh with my lifestyle.  It wasn't her social status that was an issue as much as it was an age issue.  How she fit in to my country club crowd and how she handled business dinner meetings was a concern of mine.  Was it because I was (am) a snob?  No. it is because THAT WAS MY LIFESTLE.  It doesn't make me better than Bruno, just different.

Most of the men involved in this process are middle aged professionals.  If you think that a shop girl or for that matter a village girl is going to easily slip into your lifestyle, then you have another think coming.
KenC

I think this is a good point but also it is not correct to assume that every successful person has that lifestyle.  If that is your lifestyle then you need someone, as you found, who will fit into that lifestyle.  I had enough of country clubs, dinner meetings, coats and ties, golfing at Pinehust and the like before I started my business that I rather enjoy going to work in jeans, having any meetings I need at the diner, and not getting within a few miles of the country club.  I am not saying this braggingly, but I could probably buy our local country club if I wanted to, but going there is not something that appeals to me.   Actually I lead a pretty simple life and a shop girl would have no trouble fitting in.   If she is not up to the challenges of moving abroad she should not be listing herself with an agency or seeking a foreign husband so that being the case I am not likely to run into her.  

(Note to Turbo-Before you go on and on about how it could be possible, just know that I am talking about things that are probable.)

I understand that Ken,  I think you raise a valid point and expressed it well and your comment on status impressed me.  My only real point of difference is that we are all unique and one size does not fit all.  To be honest a gal that is right for you is probably not right for me.  Actually Bruno and I might be happy with the same kind of gal.

[KenC]

Tim,
It's OK because your story is a perfect example of a "temporary" shop girl.  Most of us started our careers with remdial jobs and worked our way up to where we are now.  Classic stories have been written about people who have been able to transend social status barriers too.  Like "My Fair Lady" and such.  But they make good stories because they are not the norm.
KenC

[KenC]

I understand that Ken,  I think you raise a valid point and expressed it well and your comment on status impressed me.  My only real point of difference is that we are all unique and one size does not fit all.  To be honest a gal that is right for you is probably not right for me.  Actually Bruno and I might be happy with the same kind of gal.

Turbo,
There always will be exceptions to the most probable, to continue to point it out becomes boring.  We all understand that. 

That "one size does not fit all" is exactly my point.  The guys need to find someone that matches with their particular lifestyle, whatever that may be.  I also think that the social status mismatches are probably a bigger reason for failures than we ever acknowledge here. Take Maxx's posts on Gary for example.  He seems like a simple guy with simple goals.  No matter how much of a scammer and deceptive beatch his wife was, she was highly motivated to have a financially successful lifestyle.  In that respect, they were a total mismatch.
KenC

[BC]

Actually I lead a pretty simple life and a shop girl would have no trouble fitting in.   If she is not up to the challenges of moving abroad she should not be listing herself with an agency or seeking a foreign husband so that being the case I am not likely to run into her.

 

Turbo,

Not trying to pick you to the bone... I prefer doing this to fish.. 

Taking a deeper look at your statement you might find the exact opposite..  I do not think many girls signing up at agencies have a clue as to the real hurdles involved.  If there was a way to judge that they're up to the challenge probably 70%+ would drop out.. leaving scammers, a few hardy souls and women with a bit of international experience acquired either through travel or deeper interaction with expats and foreigners in FSU.

A true shop girl will probably have the grandest ideas (misconceptions and fantasy) regarding life elsewhere.

[Turboguy]

KenC,

Actually that is something that I don't recall us ever addressing directly and I agree with you that is is probably a very important factor.  

I think though every bit as important is perceived lifestyle.  I am sure that there are some FSU women who watch too much TV and think if they marry a guy that may not appeal to them when they get here they fantasize that they will be living a life like you see on the Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous or whatever that program is.  In reality they move into a house that is very typical for us as Gary's was and start to dream about more and how to get it.  I am sure there are some guys who even play on that a describe something that is more than what the girl will find when she gets here.  Not a good plan at all.

[PeeWee]

Not to ring too much of a contrary note but would you normally be chasing after shop girls as potential wives?
Is this your normal dating pool - the best you can do?
Of course I don't know you and, thus, if this is your normal level then you should indeed get on the phone, or better yet go visit.
If not, remember your own standards and move on.

Hey, Andrew, why would what she does for a living make one bit of difference? You seem to be suggesting that she is substandard because of what it is that she does? This can't be! I have heard many on this forum cry, "It's not what's on the outside that counts but rather what is on the inside that matters." In other words, to have a 10 in looks does not matter so why would her status in life matter? Did I not understand what  you wrote?

This may be the best that he thinks that he can do. We seem to all migrate to that level. That is why men trade up later in life because they do have more money and power and they can do better than they did when they were younger.
I have never considered what a woman did for a living to be a part of what I thought of her as a person. I don't tend to place myself above others because of race, religion, job, political preference. Nor should he. The woman is the woman plain and simple. Nothing simple about a woman, I realize that, but you get my drift. Besides she may have a lot of upside potential that we may not realize. She may be working in the shop to pay for her expences while she is learning to be a brain surgeon. Who knows. Who cares.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

Shop girl! You cannot judge a book by its cover. I had a business friend, that until she became rich and famous, Karen Taylor by name. She bought a horse for 17K than every horse breeder in the nation turned their nose up at. It was her first race horse so she did not know what she was doing nor did she care. She liked the color of the horse, she liked the horse's spirit, this was the horse equilivant of a shop girl. Anyone know who Seattle Slew was? Karen Taylor knows very well who Seattle Slew was and remembers that 17K purchase everyday that she balances her check book.

Come on...let's look beyond the forest and see the trees!

Peewee

[catzenmouse]

KenC,

 That was a very well written post about the "shop girl". I think it probably suits a lot of the occupations the ladies have there as most do not end up working in the area that they were educated in. Many also have two or three jobs to be able to make ends meet or to help out other family members.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 I agree with the masses on the tone of Andrew's post. IMO often his good thoughts are lost in the manner with which they are expressed.

Ken

[andrewfi]

no andrew is being an ass. hey andrew, can you afford to buy yourself a dinner now, or maybe more than 2 beers if you go out?

when you actually want to help someone, you at times can offer some good solid advice.

but really cut the crap, and quite trying to appear more than what you are, which is a wannabe.  for you to call out anyone is flat out BS, and Bruno is right youre comments are insulting.

chivo

I don't know who you are, but I am guessing WHAT you are.

I am not 'calling anyone out' whatever the concept you try to convey by those words may be, but you seem to have some kind of axe to grind.

Usually people are where they are for a reason. West or East. It may well be that well educated, intelligent and motivated women are unavailable because they are not accessible. It may even be that a woman may be working below her level of capability, but in Russia or Ukraine, people usually do what they can do. Shop wages are so low that one would be hard pressed to find a bright, motivated woman working in a small shop by any kind of choice. Also, hours are such that it is not usually possible to manage two jobs as has been suggested upthread.

Of course it MAY be that this woman is some kind of diamond in the rough, a woman who in other circumstances might have been a captain of industry, but it is pretty unlikely.

I was making no judgement of the person, indeed a reread of my words would make that entirely clear. If the original poster would normally be dating and aspiring to girls who work in shops then he is, as I already noted, doing good. If his normal dating pool was a tad higher then her occupation is prima facae evidence of square peg and round hole.

If one one is trying to find a bedwarmer then the work a woman does is of little import. If it is a life partner that one seeks then the woman's occupation is a part of the pattern that hepls a man to make choices. It does not seem in any way wrong, unfair or elitist to point out this aspect of the endeavour.

BTW, to the guys who are, as ever, eager to make generalisations from specific cases. What are the chances of an individual being a diamond in the rough? About as rare as finding a diamond in the rough! IMHO there is much more snobbery coming from some of the posters above than from my post which was designed to make an objective point.

[PeeWee]

KenC,

 That was a very well written post about the "shop girl". I think it probably suits a lot of the occupations the ladies have there as most do not end up working in the area that they were educated in. Many also have two or three jobs to be able to make ends meet or to help out other family members.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 I agree with the masses on the tone of Andrew's post. IMO often his good thoughts are lost in the manner with which they are expressed.

Ken

Why defend him, Ken? He said what he tought. I wonder what his wife's career was when she lived in the FSU. It makes no difference what one does over there because it would seem that when they get here their job skills do not transfer. Meet a Russian lawyer or doctor. So what? They won't be one of those when they move here. They will be a "shop girl" in most cases.

Peewee

[catzenmouse]

Why defend him, Ken? He said what he tought. I wonder what his wife's career was when she lived in the FSU. It makes no difference what one does over there because it would seem that when they get here their job skills do not transfer. Meet a Russian lawyer or doctor. So what? They won't be one of those when they move here. They will be a "shop girl" in most cases.

Peewee

I wasn't defending him PeeWee. Just saying that the messenger often kills his own message with the condescending tone of it. I've seen good posts from Andrew where he skillfully makes his point without looking down his nose at the reader. Too bad that those are fewer than the other type.

Ken

[KenC]

Peewee,
Leave it you to make the parallel reference between picking a horse to picking a RW.  I also find it amusing that you become indignant with Andrew's comments because it is you that has made some of the most callus comments here regarding RW and women in general.  If you want to get a clue as to how the social status of the RW does matter, read my post up thread.  BTW, Andrew is not married and he lives in Estonia.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Pick away BC, that is OK.

I agree with some of what you are trying to say.  I am sure a lot of the gals if they really knew what they would be facing would run for the hills.  I am sure the same might apply to some of the guys.

I have to look at what you say as more of an argument for not being a one week wonder though, than for avoiding shop gals.  If you spend enough time with a gal you should have some idea of what she expects for her life abroad, of what she can muster for the effort and how your lifestyles will mesh.  If she envisions butlers, maids and rolls Royce's and you are a mechanic at a local garage you need to either correct her expectations or move on, perhaps both.

PeeWee, I agree with you.  I have been spending my free time scanning listings to get ready for going on one of Jack's tours.  I either barely look at employment or don't look.   Along the same lines, I have also had a lot of letters from gals that they went to school to be a chemical engineer or the like but there were not opportunities so they work in a shop.   This was mentioned before and I agree with it.  Some of the shop gals are highly educated.

[KenC]

Usually, it is the reverse of the "shop girl" dilemma that transpires in regards to RW adjusting to their new culture.  Instead of a RW having a marginal career and adjusting to an upscale lifestyle, it is more common for a RW to have a prominant career in Russia and become virtually unemployable in America.  But that is only in reference to employment opportunities or the lack thereof.  Social status is a whole different animal as I see it.  I see that the RW that have more well rounded social experiences have a easier time adjusting to their new found lifestyle, but that only makes common sense.

We had a young Ukrainian village girl that we had become acquainted with here in CA.  She was a total scammer and used some poor naive young guy as her mule.  We invited her to dinner at our home.  I grilled some filet's.  She actually picked up the hunk of meat with her hands and started gnawing on it!!  We had previously experienced her having butter dripping down to her elbows while eating crab legs, but a steak?  Needless to say, I would die rather having such a woman as my mate.
KenC

[Turboguy]

  I see that the RW that have more well rounded social experiences have a easier time adjusting to their new found lifestyle, but that only makes common sense.

That makes sense but does profession and social skills have any connection.  I have seen very social people that were waitresses and shop gals and social misfits that had great careers going for them  She actually picked up the hunk of meat with her hands and started gnawing on it!!  We had previously experienced her having butter dripping down to her elbows while eating crab legs, but a steak?  Needless to say, I would die rather having such a woman as my mate.
KenC

Perhaps we need to make a change of the commandments to say "If you are going to be a one week wonder at least take her out for both crab legs and steak first"

[catzenmouse]

Perhaps we need to make a change of the commandments to say "If you are going to be a one week wonder at least take her out for both crab legs and steak first"

See, there you go again starting trouble TG! 

[jb]

I've often wondered what alternative universe T /G must live in to write to some the things he does.  Then he comes along and says he does it just to piss us off.  I've learned not to place too much credence to his posts.

[Bruno]

Is it fair to consider the potential mates social status in the selection process?  Damn right it is.  And if you don't, then you could be making a huge error.  You had damn well better match up or you could be heading for trouble.  God bless Bruno for being a nice guy, but he is a rather simple man.  This doesn't mean he is stupid or lazy or anything negative.  Just that he leads a rather simple unsophisticated life.  How would a highly educated urban career woman from Moscow match up with his lifestyle?  I say, not very well.

Good post KenC but allow me to comment the partial quote from your post...

I have high education and i was with a high revenue work... I have stop it due to the marriage with my ex-russian wife... I have adapt for one women and i can adapt for the next one...

My actual girlfriend is high educated ( interpreter diploma, psychologue diploma )... She is a career woman who have choose me over her career : recently, she was given the opportunity to start his own business, a Ltd in import/export...

Mainly, the more complain that i hear from FSU lady already in Belgium is that men are too much work alcoholic and have not enough time for family... This situation have already lead to a divorce between a FSU woman and a lawer... he was always working... his laptop was a fence between them, same in the bedroom late in the night, he was more busy with his computer that with his wife... The majority of good RW don't seek a high income but stability and family life.

I have use 10 year of my life for realize that high social status is bulsh!t... What the difference between a headcache after a party where i have drink champagne and one where i have drink beer... i have never like caviar and oester but i like a simple barbecue... i choose a life with free time, lower in stress that a very high income... quality of life is better that a lot of money !

Nobody here know all my life and detail, so don't judge on information that you don't have... I was with a high social status but i have choose something more simple... I don't care to have a lot of million in bank when i will be old or dead... i will enjoy the life each day and have the time to enjoy it... my income help me to enjoy the life but i don't use my life for my work...

Except this, i repeat, the rest of the post is very good 

[Turboguy]

jb, you are a very wise guy, but either you have no sense of humor at all our our sense of humors come from different planets.

Yes, once in a while when things get really quiet here and not one is posting much, I go look for something to argue with you about.  It is usually not hard to find something.  I think I have done this two times out of our 732 arguments.

If you can't realize that I really don't want to add the steak and crab leg thingy to the commandments and that it was a joke then you have no sense of humor. 

If you did not get so flustered over things and try to read so much into things that are neither true or there you would not be half as much fun to argue with.

[KenC]

Bruno,
Check your 'tude at the door please.  I thought I was very nonjudgemental about your choice in lifestyle in my post and yet you write line after line justifying it and putting down people (like me) that seek a better financial life.

high social status is bulsh!t...

Did you forget that I am suppose to be the pr1ck here and not you?
KenC

[jb]

T/G

My sense of humor is just fine, thank you,,, so is my sense of amazement at some of the absolute crap you post as advice.