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Author Topic: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom  (Read 5373 times)

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Online krimster2

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2018, 12:34:40 PM »
while I was going to college I had a part time entry level job working on the publication, they were located not far from my university
an amazing group of people, I wish I could get my hands on some of the old issues, especially the ones where they predicted the collapse of the CCCP
a lot of ex-soviet bloc intelligentsia/refuseniks worked there, amazing group of people, totally dedicated to "the cause"
I don't really see any equivalent group of people today
I thought you might've encountered it, long gone now I'm afraid
вы думаете, что любой из этих людей, даже российских, подозревает, что я русский?

вот как я могу создать американскую личность
Я могу взять напрокат

Offline The Natural

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2018, 03:59:10 PM »
Ukraine has dignity? It is a hollowed out country. I have Ukrainian friends and enjoy going there, but as a society it has essentially collapsed.

Politics are dominated by US-backed or Russian-backed interests. 2014 was a US-backed movement. The Donbass separatists are Russian-backed. Without US financial support the Ukrainian government would collapse and Russia would take over.

Russia wants Ukraine as a buffer from NATO. Much like it previously wanted Eastern Europe as a buffer. I don't believe territorial sovereignty is the major driver. There's also historical context because culturally the two are rather intertwined.

Ahhh, there IS sanity here after all. Well said, man.

Offline Boethius

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2018, 04:12:56 PM »

Phew! Long-winded with way too much noise! However, I'm glad see when all is said and done, you came around and agree. Comparing the two events is akin to comparing a chihuahua to a looney 'toon.

Carry on...


I don't recall ever posting the two events are the same.  However, knowing some history, I reject both your, and Jay's assertions, that Dubcek was advocating for freedom.  He wasn't.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline Boethius

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2018, 04:22:56 PM »
while I was going to college I had a part time entry level job working on the publication, they were located not far from my university
an amazing group of people, I wish I could get my hands on some of the old issues, especially the ones where they predicted the collapse of the CCCP
a lot of ex-soviet bloc intelligentsia/refuseniks worked there, amazing group of people, totally dedicated to "the cause"
I don't really see any equivalent group of people today
I thought you might've encountered it, long gone now I'm afraid


Hmm, I don't recall anyone predicting the collapse of the USSR was imminent.  Even the KGB didn't predict it.  On the eve of the coup, the gulags were ready for prisoners.  I think multiple sources did predict that it would eventually collapse.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline GQBlues

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2018, 04:57:32 PM »

I don't recall ever posting the two events are the same.  However, knowing some history, I reject both your, and Jay's assertions, that Dubcek was advocating for freedom.  He wasn't.


Reject it all you want, means doodley squat to me. Matters pertaining to Czech/Slovakia, especially their history, I'll readily take their word for it way before I take one from a Canadian who's probably never even been there.
My wonderful rebuttal to the Prague Spring thread is now *relocated* again (being actively hidden, lol) in *Anything Goes* section, titled: Willy Waving. Hurry before she deletes it altogether. LMAO! Enjoy.

Offline Boethius

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2018, 05:06:39 PM »
They are not my thoughts.  They are the thoughts, distilled, of dozens of scholars, experts who have devoted their lives to study of the issue, many of them from either the Czech or Slovak Republics.  But I'm certain your wikipedia leaks are just as useful.


As a matter of fact, I have been to Czechoslovkia.  I was there in the 1980's,  At that time, I was living in the USSR, before Gorbachev was appointed Secretary-General of the USSR.  It was extremely oppressive, far, far more so than the USSR.




To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline GQBlues

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2018, 05:35:32 PM »
Riiiiight! I'm sure you were with a relative, too. Your regurgitated verbose didn't cut it, LOL. Too bad for you wasting your time trying to dupe another subject.



My wonderful rebuttal to the Prague Spring thread is now *relocated* again (being actively hidden, lol) in *Anything Goes* section, titled: Willy Waving. Hurry before she deletes it altogether. LMAO! Enjoy.

Online krimster2

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2018, 08:13:40 PM »
All armed prophets have conquered and all unarmed ones failed.
What happens, if the prophet, having conquered and then ruled by force of arms, loses faith in his own prophecy

that + a prison revolt in “The Jail House of Nations”

interesting to me, how people on the outside couldn’t see
and people on the inside couldn’t see
but only people who were both on the outside and inside
the Czechs and Hungarians were the most intense

I met Golitsyn, don’t know if you knew him, possible you even met him?
I thought he was a classic paranoid at the time!
He claimed that Russia would trick the US into thinking the cold war was over, and that the US would eliminate containment, and that Russia would then cripple the US economically and politically.   

haha, I mean crazy, paranoid, hehe... wait, what?
вы думаете, что любой из этих людей, даже российских, подозревает, что я русский?

вот как я могу создать американскую личность
Я могу взять напрокат

Online msmob

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2018, 09:10:37 PM »
Riiiiight! I'm sure you were with a relative, too. Your regurgitated verbose didn't cut it, LOL. Too bad for you wasting your time trying to dupe another subject.

GQB

Smart guys admit when they encounter someone who knows what they're talking bout ...


In this case - why not thank Boethius for educating us and move on ?

Offline Boethius

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2018, 12:50:23 AM »
There is a romanticization of both 1956 and 1968 without understanding that, fundamentally, these were not events about freedom.  They were orchestrated, and controlled, by communists who intended to remain communist.  They just wanted to control the "agenda". 


The only country that was different was Poland, because their movement for change was started by labour unions (though orchestrated by intellectuals), and supported by the Catholic Church, which, despite communism, was still very influential in Poland.  Even communists went to church.   


In the end, I believe Jay's initial comparison was flawed, but I understand what he is getting at.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline Boethius

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2018, 12:57:33 AM »
Riiiiight! I'm sure you were with a relative, too. Your regurgitated verbose didn't cut it, LOL. Too bad for you wasting your time trying to dupe another subject.

No, I went to Czechoslovakia alone.  I was not yet married, and in any event, none of my Soviet relatives would have been entitled to receive visas.  A flawed assumption by you yet again, as you don't understand how the Soviet system operated.

I have an MA in a related field, and one of my required fields of study (seminar work) was comparative communism.  So, I can tell you a great deal about all the Eastern bloc.  I studied at a university that had one of the best departments of East European studies in the world at the time, long before you were bride seeking or before you could identify Prague or Warsaw, or likely Moscow, on a map.  I haven't kept up so much with journals, but I do still read a lot of books in the areas, primarily to learn new things, given the release of archives previously closed to Western scholars.  So excuse me if I am not impressed by your wiki links, or your apparent romanticization of an event that was hardly a call for freedom.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 01:12:00 AM by Boethius »
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Offline Boethius

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2018, 01:08:57 AM »
I met Golitsyn, don’t know if you knew him, possible you even met him?
I thought he was a classic paranoid at the time!
He claimed that Russia would trick the US into thinking the cold war was over, and that the US would eliminate containment, and that Russia would then cripple the US economically and politically.   

haha, I mean crazy, paranoid, hehe... wait, what?

I never met him.  I did meet, unknowingly, some KGB operatives in my city, not defectors, though.

I think all KGB defectors (and some, I believe, were still loyal to the KGB) were paranoid, because you don't just "leave" the KGB.

I don't think Russia can cripple the US economically.  I also don't think Russia can cripple the US politically.  Any advantage they obtain over the US is due to the doings of American politicians, not foreigners.  IMHO, the former need to love their country more than they love money or power.
To love someone means to see him as God intended him. - Fyodor Dostoevksy

Online krimster2

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2018, 05:02:57 AM »
read/watch anything from the following two women (some of the few Putin critics left alive)

Yulia Latynina
Masha Gessen

вы думаете, что любой из этих людей, даже российских, подозревает, что я русский?

вот как я могу создать американскую личность
Я могу взять напрокат

Online msmob

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2018, 07:46:52 AM »
An interesting article :

1/Suggests deaths under reported

2/ Dubcek ' no hero ' ....complaint even and NOT respected..

http://meduza.io/en/feature/2018/08/24/before-1968-we-had-nothing-against-russia-or-the-soviet-union


Offline GQBlues

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2018, 04:48:16 PM »
 :clapping:


Have a nice weekend, everyone!!! Don't let such a promisingly beautiful days go to waste. Get out and enjoy some sun, fun, activities with friends, family, etc...Life is wonderful!


Ethan, this message will self-destruct in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.....
My wonderful rebuttal to the Prague Spring thread is now *relocated* again (being actively hidden, lol) in *Anything Goes* section, titled: Willy Waving. Hurry before she deletes it altogether. LMAO! Enjoy.

Online msmob

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Offline The Natural

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Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2018, 11:56:10 PM »
:clapping:


Have a nice weekend, everyone!!! Don't let such a promisingly beautiful days go to waste. Get out and enjoy some sun, fun, activities with friends, family, etc...Life is wonderful!



You're right. Life is wonderful, especially if one has a good health and enough of the necessities and live without war.
You too have a nice weekend GQBlues  :)

 

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