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Author Topic: Being a gentleman or a chump?  (Read 11613 times)

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Offline brownbeard99

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #100 on: April 16, 2019, 01:29:08 PM »
WOWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!
you got me
I can’t help but be obsessed with an amazing guy like yourself
whether it’s getting your MBA at Harvard while simultaneously working full-time as a top level executive at a pharmaceutical company or the incredible success you have in relationships
you’re just the most amazing guy ever!!!!  the GREATEST!!!
who wouldn’t be obsessed over that!!!!

but as for me, I don’t obey your orders, sorry...
will continue to do as I please
if you don’t want to hear things about yourself that don’t reinforce your bullshit
check out the ignore button, then you won’t hear it
Wow. You couldn’t even go an hour.

Online krimster2

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #101 on: April 16, 2019, 01:33:24 PM »
obviously, I wasn't EVEN trying to, I thought it was clear, that you're the only one "playing this game"
you probably have a bit of jet lag, so no worries...
did you bring back a nesting doll?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 01:40:46 PM by krimster2 »
вы думаете, что любой из этих людей, даже российских, подозревает, что я русский?

Offline Trenchcoat

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #102 on: April 16, 2019, 03:14:04 PM »
Either that or she is just getting started and is testing the waters with BB. She wants to see how far she can go with her requests. She has already dropped the vacation in Europe hint.... :popcorn:

Such girls can be difficult. After the last girl I was with paying for stuff like Salsa lessons would be a no go outside of a living together relationship. I think it is important to rule a line between what she would get an what stage in a relationship otherwise she would keep hitting BB for stuff, there like that those girls, they come out with a logical reason for him buying her this that and the other. If he puts forward a real dividing line between what she gets at different stages of a relationship she could be easier to deal with. Basically rule out all spending on her in regular dating that is not to do with that date.

Interestingly, it would be interesting for BB to tell her after marriage he controls her finances, she how she reacts :)
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Offline brownbeard99

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #103 on: April 16, 2019, 03:47:10 PM »
Such girls can be difficult. After the last girl I was with paying for stuff like Salsa lessons would be a no go outside of a living together relationship. I think it is important to rule a line between what she would get an what stage in a relationship otherwise she would keep hitting BB for stuff, there like that those girls, they come out with a logical reason for him buying her this that and the other. If he puts forward a real dividing line between what she gets at different stages of a relationship she could be easier to deal with. Basically rule out all spending on her in regular dating that is not to do with that date.

Interestingly, it would be interesting for BB to tell her after marriage he controls her finances, she how she reacts :)
I was wondering if she has created a situation that directly ties sex to money, which may cause her to withhold sex as long as possible.  I can picture the gifts getting bigger and bigger and eventually the guy realizes he is not getting any value from this transaction, so he leaves.  If she does sleep with a guy when he is about to stop giving gifts, then the transaction is now complete and everyone got what they wanted.  Unless the sex was the best ever, I could see a man putting another “Ukrainian hottie” notch in his belt and moving on.... but I am not into transactional relationships, so this is just speculation

Offline Trenchcoat

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« Reply #104 on: April 16, 2019, 04:16:09 PM »
I was wondering if she has created a situation that directly ties sex to money, which may cause her to withhold sex as long as possible.  I can picture the gifts getting bigger and bigger and eventually the guy realizes he is not getting any value from this transaction, so he leaves.  If she does sleep with a guy when he is about to stop giving gifts, then the transaction is now complete and everyone got what they wanted.  Unless the sex was the best ever, I could see a man putting another “Ukrainian hottie” notch in his belt and moving on.... but I am not into transactional relationships, so this is just speculation

I think that is generally what would happen. As I found giving into a UW demands/requests is ultimately a self defeating method. I found that the more I gave my girl the more she asked. I almost felt that it was doing the relationship damage. Time over again I wouldn't give in its a one way street to relationship destruction. After all few people can afford to stand in shops all day every day buying stuff. So in the end it becomes unsustainable. If you just want a girl to put out then you're better off not giving into her demands/requests, it tells her she has to actually 'give' you something tangible in return, so hold out until talk turns to a more intimate nature. Generally it's not usually much of formal talk about this for that but she'll get on the wavelength once she knows you're not buying the young nun carry on. She'll then either decides she is willing to do it with you or make off. For some girls I hear it's all part of the dating game out there, not just foreigners, locals also, it's like gameplay, cat and mouse if you will, all a bit of fun for them to play over what they can get and what they give.

The iPhone girl sounds like a agency/prodate girl and is the type to avoid if you aren't just after a quickie. You could have some fun and try and see what you can beat her down to. Odds are she'll settle for less than an iPhone for doing it, you don't have to do it with her of course, just out of interest.

The Salsa dancing lessons girls might be remdeemable. Problem tends to be once she gets something beyond the usual dating expenses stuff you have shown that you have given her something for which you shouldn't have so can be taken. Hence why some say it's quiet likely too late. You could try and learn more by keeping up contact or if pushed for time might be better talking to a new girl.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 04:53:23 PM by Trenchcoat »
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Offline Trenchcoat

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« Reply #105 on: April 16, 2019, 05:35:45 PM »
Interestingly, I contacted the girl I was with last (Kherson girl, the second girl I met in Kiev) about a year ago now. I did so as she would have turned 26 (27 now) and thought the time might have caused her to think how good she had it with me compared to any other guys she been in contact with since. I don't think she had much luck as she lives out in Kherson where not many foreigners tend to go. There is the AFA tour but she apparently doesn't go and considers the girls who go as prostitutes for some reason. I don't think they are, I don't think she goes either, I think it is more she doesn't like anyone to know here dating life for whatever reason, family, friends or reputation maybe.

Anyway, time had not healed, she stated it was 'too late now', I had been unable to move on a visa since she earned too little which she blamed me for, after I had bought her a load of stuff on holiday, etc. That seemed to count for little long term good will however. She refused to see me where she lived as she said I promised her for her to see me in the UK.

What was most interesting was when I said about contacting her to see if she had matured (in a matter of speak) she replied that 'she still likes clothes'. She also said that she had never lied to me, just manipulative then which she seems to have no problem with, lol.

Main point of me bringing this up BB is I'm not convinced such girls are totally into scamming guys. As someone pointed out if they went to an agency they could get a lot more money The girl I was with had not been online on her profile for several months prior to out first meeting in Kiev (we had moved to Email & WhatsApp) and I looked at other sites and she had no profile.

So it's a curiosity. Now I have heard that some girls do it to test a guy, I don't mean to see if he's got the money but to test that you are not a push over. It gets a bit psychological at this point, a bit weird perhaps. It could stand to reason that they don't want a guy who is a pushover as in their society they probably wouldn't do well. I though still think that apart from gameplay it may just be something driving the behaviour of these women. They have wants but handled wrongly and giving in to them can be destructive to the relationship.

Thinking it over such girls probably see it as fair game playing for stuff in a relationship. I get the impression they lack the understanding that WM and many other FSW do of what it takes a relationship to work. Taking the 90 day fiancé, Jorge & Anfisa again, Anfisa tries to claim that Jorge should give her loads of expensive stuff but seems oblivious that it's not doing the relationship any good. Would be interesting to hear about any guy that has managed to deal with such demanding women.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 05:52:09 PM by Trenchcoat »
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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #106 on: April 16, 2019, 05:49:40 PM »
Although privately I’ve chatted with members that have met wonderful Ukrainian women that aren’t focused on their wallets,  it seems that a bulk of this materialistic behaviour and profiteering in members trip reports occurs in Ukraine..... is this because the romance money making machine is more entrenched this country? Or maybe more men are travelling there?

My recent experience was completely the opposite. Everyday she protected my wallet and searched for the cheapest option to make my money go further. The last night I decided to surprise her with a luxury hotel room in the most expensive place in town. She was greatful, but I could see she was a little uncomfortable at the expense (it was actually cheap compared with the same room in the Hilton at home). The next morning she refused to eat breakfast there and took me to the supermarket and then cooked for me. I’m glad she did, as she’s an amazing cook!! 😊

I couldn’t imagine spending even 10 minutes with some of the women described on this site.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 06:00:38 PM by Davo »

Offline Trenchcoat

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« Reply #107 on: April 16, 2019, 06:14:23 PM »
Although privately I’ve chatted with members that have met wonderful Ukrainian women that aren’t focused on their wallets,  it seems that a bulk of this materialistic behaviour and profiteering in members trip reports occurs in Ukraine..... is this because the romance money making machine is more entrenched this country? Or maybe more men are travelling there?

My recent experience was completely the opposite. Everyday she protected my wallet and searched for the cheapest option to make my money go further. The last night I decided to surprise her with a luxury hotel room in the most expensive place in town. She was greatful, but I could see she was a little uncomfortable at the expense (it was actually cheap compared with the same room in the Hilton at home). The next morning she refused to eat breakfast there and took me to the supermarket and then cooked for me. I’m glad she did, as she’s an amazing cook!! 😊

I couldn’t imagine spending even 10 minutes with some of the women described on this site.

Clearly the ideal Davo, think it's luck of the draw sometimes. Sometimes the girl will give herself away in messaging. I think when meeting a fair amount of UW the tendency is to come across most types as BB seems to have found. Was there the necessary chemistry with your girl Davo?
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« Reply #108 on: April 16, 2019, 07:04:52 PM »
Clearly the ideal Davo, think it's luck of the draw sometimes. Sometimes the girl will give herself away in messaging. I think when meeting a fair amount of UW the tendency is to come across most types as BB seems to have found. Was there the necessary chemistry with your girl Davo?

I only considered this path due to this one woman. We had great chemistry online and it was more evident from the moment we met.

To be honest, when we first chatted over coffee, it was very comfortable.... like two life long friends would interact with each other and it only got better from that point. Nothing was off limits and she was very honest and open with even the most personal aspects of her life.

I’ve now know her for well over 2 years and have not seen one red flag or even the slightest change in her mentality. She has a very stable and consistently personality and without doubt the most positive out look on life I’ve ever experienced with any woman I’ve dated.... nothing phases her!!

« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 07:15:14 PM by Davo »

Offline Trenchcoat

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« Reply #109 on: April 16, 2019, 07:19:16 PM »
I only considered this path due to this one woman. We had great chemistry online and it was more evident from the moment we met.

To be honest, when we first chatted over coffee, it was very comfortable.... like two life long friends would interact with each other and it only got better from that point. Nothing was off limits and she was very honest and open with even the most personal aspects of her life.

I’ve now know her for well over 2 years and have not seen one red flag or even the slightest change in her mentality. She has a very stable and consistently personality and without doubt the most positive out look on life I’ve ever experienced with any woman I’ve dated.... nothing phases her!!

2 years???? I know some guys like to really get to know a girl first but I wonder if you're dragging your heels Davo. If there is chemistry, she is genuine and you get on great why not take the next step?
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« Reply #110 on: April 16, 2019, 07:46:13 PM »
2 years???? I know some guys like to really get to know a girl first but I wonder if you're dragging your heels Davo. If there is chemistry, she is genuine and you get on great why not take the next step?

We were friends at first online and there was no thought of it ever being romantic, but eventually that changed.

When we first met online, I was in the middle of divorce proceedings and also fighting a fabricated DV order (intervention order in Australia). It took a further 8 months to get the DV order thrown out of court and a year and a half to finalise my divorce (over 3 years in total). I was in no position to travel due to court and being awarded full custody of my children early on in proceedings.... honestly, it wouldn’t be fair to bring anyone serious into my life while going through all that BS. 

Taking the next step at the moment is meeting again in the next four months and seeing how we still feel about each other. I’m not stupid enough to get engaged after 3 weeks of real life time together. I’ve seen far too many divorced friends make obvious bad choices as they are lonely and end up divorced again.... I’m not going to be that guy!!

In all reality it’s probably a 50/50 chance of anything eventuating. Her ex has a good relationship with their young daughter, so he could throw a spanner in the works and also it would be a big decision for her to move and she has said she would for the right man, but she has a great lifestyle and her job takes her all over Europe. Her family are close by and she has many wonderful friends. It would be a big sacrifice to leave all that behind.

Despite the stereotype.... most people I met were not desperate to leave, they were happy with their life and infact the couple I had dinner with the last night said they felt a greater sense of freedom in Russia, than other European countries they lived in.... he’s an airline pilot.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 08:21:10 PM by Davo »

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« Reply #111 on: April 16, 2019, 08:59:29 PM »
We were friends at first online and there was no thought of it ever being romantic, but eventually that changed.

When we first met online, I was in the middle of divorce proceedings and also fighting a fabricated DV order (intervention order in Australia). It took a further 8 months to get the DV order thrown out of court and a year and a half to finalise my divorce (over 3 years in total). I was in no position to travel due to court and being awarded full custody of my children early on in proceedings.... honestly, it wouldn’t be fair to bring anyone serious into my life while going through all that BS. 

Taking the next step at the moment is meeting again in the next four months and seeing how we still feel about each other. I’m not stupid enough to get engaged after 3 weeks of real life time together. I’ve seen far too many divorced friends make obvious bad choices as they are lonely and end up divorced again.... I’m not going to be that guy!!

In all reality it’s probably a 50/50 chance of anything eventuating. Her ex has a good relationship with their young daughter, so he could throw a spanner in the works and also it would be a big decision for her to move and she has said she would for the right man, but she has a great lifestyle and her job takes her all over Europe. Her family are close by and she has many wonderful friends. It would be a big sacrifice to leave all that behind.

Despite the stereotype.... most people I met were not desperate to leave, they were happy with their life and infact the couple I had dinner with the last night said they felt a greater sense of freedom in Russia, than other European countries they lived in.... he’s an airline pilot.

Ah I see, that if course makes sense. I've never done divorce but have seen how ongoing civil court cases can take there toll and not be a pleasant environment to bring to a new relationship.

I get the impression the state of the woman's life in Russia or Ukraine makes a difference. Once I was watching a vid on You Tube, it was this guy around retirement age from the US I think. He had a job teaching English in Russia which was where he lived with his Russian wife around similar age. Anyway he said one of the things he likes that in Russia you can just get on with your life and you are left to it which you don't find a lot in the west.

I think in the west we have ended up with a lot of promoting of issues and social ills. A lot of the time people are being promoted or take it upon themselves to poke their nose into others business. For me I've always quite like the somewhat archaic feel of Ukraine with it comes a feeling that people aren't going to be too stiff in the main. I find there can be a nice family side to matters also if in the right places.
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« Reply #112 on: April 16, 2019, 09:38:59 PM »
I spent time with middle / upper middle class citizens. I suspect people in lower socioeconomic situations would have something different to say on the matter.

At the supermarket there was an old lady (Maybe 80) begging for money. I took her shopping and she was very appreciative. After I talked to “k” about the pension and struggles old people faced. “K” had helped this woman and others like her also. In her words she stated “it’s disgusting how old people are treated by the state!!”

She’s also very vocal about the lack of support for single mothers. She realises she’s one of the lucky ones, with a well paid job, owns her own apartment and a ex husband that pays child support. Often the ex husbands don’t pay their child support and the women recieve very little from the state. With low paying jobs, food, rent and utilities, many struggle.

It’s this caring nature that first attracted me to her. During correspondence she would send videos of her helping to raise money for the local orphanage. She has a lot of empathy and time for the less fortunate, especially children. This caring nature gave me no doubt that she was a genuine, honest women long before we met.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 09:44:46 PM by Davo »

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« Reply #113 on: April 16, 2019, 10:51:45 PM »
I want a family that sticks together regardless of the circumstances... not one that runs in the face of adversity.


What you want is what many of us want. A quality person. Quality people are in demand and when they get married, they tend to stay married. What's left isn't very appealing. Got to go through a lot of people to find a winner. Some men give their all to the first woman they write to and date. They rely on luck to bring a quality woman in their life. Chances are they're going to be disappointed.

I have a friend who has a younger sister. Knew her since high school. She went boating with her boyfriend many years ago. He went for a swim and came to the rear of the boat to climb back in. The propeller was still engaged and was spinning. Sliced up his leg which in turn had to be amputated. She stuck by her one legged man. They later married and had kids.

Last year he divorced her. She was addicted to alcohol so bad, she'd be drunk during her kids birthday parties embarrassing them. Worked as a dental assistant and stole pain killing medicine for herself. Her husband tried to get her help, stuck by her side during struggles with addiction, and gave her many chances but he finally had enough and ended the marriage.

A friend of mine who graduated from Bible college said there are 3 valid reasons to get divorce. Abuse, adultery, and abandonment are it. In my friend's sister's case, she basically abandoned her marriage due to her addictions.
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« Reply #114 on: April 16, 2019, 11:23:27 PM »
“Got to go through a lot of people to find a winner”......and you need a lot of luck!!

After I became single, I met a great woman who eventually moved away. I would have been quite happy to spend the rest of my life with her. After I dated 8 more women in short term and casual relationships over two years, it was pretty clear none  of them I would consider marrying. They were good fun to be with, but I didn’t feel that all consuming feeling / connection you have with someone you would marry.

So I’m my experience, at least 9 in10 women you date won’t be the one you walk down the aisle with, especially when you’re middle aged and dealing with all the baggage that comes with past relationships.


« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 11:41:06 PM by Davo »

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« Reply #115 on: April 17, 2019, 12:50:06 AM »
Hi Davo,

I was going to jump in on your assertion and 'mock it'...as I was going to tell you "this was not my experience" as an older guy back on the dating scene.

I would say all the ladies I dated were keepers, but I was the guy with the baggage.

When it came down to passion ..I could not stop wishing I was with my former wife

I was looking for anyone that could make me think of being with them...when walking hand in hand, shopping and other ,perhaps more intimate, moments..

So, your point re baggage IS valid.... 

The most important thing to work out is if both of you want to be with the other and are not still dreaming of the past!

I was dating, locally and it was a FSU W who can and does  pull guys 20 years younger.. who made me realise that I was the one still holding the baggage and what an idiot I was.,..and how unfair I was being.

You really did make a good point!


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« Reply #116 on: April 17, 2019, 08:32:07 AM »
I just got an interesting text from the girl who wanted me to buy her an iPhone.  She started in with accusations, saying “I know it was you!”

I had no idea what she was talking about.  Eventually, she told me that they took her profile down on the dating site because some guy reported her. I asked her if she has been on any other recent dates and she said “yes”.

So, it looks like she has been trying her antics on other guys and they weren’t as good humored about it as I was...

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« Reply #117 on: April 17, 2019, 08:52:03 AM »
“Got to go through a lot of people to find a winner”......and you need a lot of luck!!

After I became single, I met a great woman who eventually moved away. I would have been quite happy to spend the rest of my life with her. After I dated 8 more women in short term and casual relationships over two years, it was pretty clear none  of them I would consider marrying. They were good fun to be with, but I didn’t feel that all consuming feeling / connection you have with someone you would marry.

So I’m my experience, at least 9 in10 women you date won’t be the one you walk down the aisle with, especially when you’re middle aged and dealing with all the baggage that comes with past relationships.

Think this raises the question of what constitutes the guy as a winner in the girl's eye also. As men we tend to have an idea of the perfect girl as Davo has shown with the FSW he is in communication with.

IDK but while I like a girl or people in general with social empathy and thought as I do so to a point myself I would find too much of it difficult to bear over time. Some people go on humanitarian missions, go migrant hugging, etc, but that's just not me. I believe also in practicalities and what I see as sensible responses to a situation. I also believe in real people that aren't goody two shoes but don't fall into the bad people category either. I'm not saying Davo'd girl is goody goody btw just that it sparked the thought in my mind that some people are of course.

I think in fact that some people with a bit of an edge to them in certain areas can add a bit of interest to them so long as it does not make them an out and out bad person. Yet sometimes this may make it difficult to deal with them. Perhaps it takes a complimentary personality to fit, idk.

I've come across at least one girl in my FSU travels where she seemed a decent genuine person for the most part but natural chemistry was not present. I'm not really sure beyond that how women see men. Back to the vid I mentioned the other day, the tour one with Yuri in it, one of the tour destinations was Kherson and one of the girls had less than positive things to say about the guys she saw there. Basically they were half drunk, drink in hand going around leering at all the girls sat on the tables each in turn. Beyond drunks, mental and druggies though I guess there is always the values a man holds as well as the woman. On that I think maybe it's a case of finding someone that holds similar values, not necessarily exactly the same personality but a complimentary personality. The farther from that then the more problems perhaps.
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« Reply #118 on: April 17, 2019, 08:54:25 AM »
I just got an interesting text from the girl who wanted me to buy her an iPhone.  She started in with accusations, saying “I know it was you!”

I had no idea what she was talking about.  Eventually, she told me that they took her profile down on the dating site because some guy reported her. I asked her if she has been on any other recent dates and she said “yes”.

So, it looks like she has been trying her antics on other guys and they weren’t as good humored about it as I was...

Presumably if she messaged every guy the same chances are the one who did it would think she has rumbled him, it's probably what she is doing, lol.

Seems she doesn't like the shoe being in the other foot when she is the one taking the hit :)
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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #119 on: April 17, 2019, 09:23:55 AM »
Presumably if she messaged every guy the same chances are the one who did it would think she has rumbled him, it's probably what she is doing, lol.

Seems she doesn't like the shoe being in the other foot when she is the one taking the hit :)
She is pissed off, but has absolutely no self awareness that her behavior led to the current situation. I told her that she did me wrong and I have no doubt that there are several men that are angry with her if she does this regularly. In our conversation, she basically admitted that she makes her living off of translating for agency dates and getting dates to give her money and gifts.

When I wouldn’t give her an iPhone, she made a reference to “karma”. Today I put it back to her that her karma is catching up with her for using so many men.  She said she was doing these men a favor because most of them would normally meet women through an agency and she is saving them money because she doesn’t charge an agency fee or translator fee when she goes out on a date with a man.

Offline ML

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #120 on: April 17, 2019, 09:34:12 AM »
she is saving them money because she doesn’t charge an agency fee or translator fee when she goes out on a date with a man.

Yes she does charge a fee . . . an Iphone + cosmetics, etc.
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

Offline Trenchcoat

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #121 on: April 17, 2019, 09:53:39 AM »
She is pissed off, but has absolutely no self awareness that her behavior led to the current situation. I told her that she did me wrong and I have no doubt that there are several men that are angry with her if she does this regularly. In our conversation, she basically admitted that she makes her living off of translating for agency dates and getting dates to give her money and gifts.

When I wouldn’t give her an iPhone, she made a reference to “karma”. Today I put it back to her that her karma is catching up with her for using so many men.  She said she was doing these men a favor because most of them would normally meet women through an agency and she is saving them money because she doesn’t charge an agency fee or translator fee when she goes out on a date with a man.

Looks to me that she is trying to justify her bad behaviour with a 'they would get done over worse anyway if it were not for me even though I still do them over'. Could be a learning opportunity here, perhaps ask her 'don't you really want to find a partner other than just goods for sex?'.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

Offline brownbeard99

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #122 on: April 17, 2019, 10:02:24 AM »
Looks to me that she is trying to justify her bad behaviour with a 'they would get done over worse anyway if it were not for me even though I still do them over'. Could be a learning opportunity here, perhaps ask her 'don't you really want to find a partner other than just goods for sex?'.
I tried, but she isn’t hearing it.

Offline Trenchcoat

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #123 on: April 17, 2019, 10:09:03 AM »
I tried, but she isn’t hearing it.

Yeah, they always seem to not want to know about that one despite it supposed to bring the reason they are there. Looks to me such women are just selfish and see it as a game with the guys as fair game to be duped. Funny that she doesn't see it that she can hardly cry foul when some guy gets her profile pulled, lol.
No Deal is Ideal, It's a Free Britain we want :)

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Being a gentleman or a chump?
« Reply #124 on: April 17, 2019, 10:10:49 AM »
I tried, but she isn’t hearing it.

I once went on three dates with a RW who liked sex and was very good at it.

But she had some serious flaws otherwise with respect to being a good long-term partner.

After I was back in USA, I sent her message outlining some of her 'short-comings' and said I was trying to help her in future relationships.

She took my message, changed the exact words directed toward her to words directed toward me, and sent to me saying she was trying to help me in my future relationships.

Made for pretty funny reading because most of the items made no sense coming from woman to man . . . even as I probably had some other serious flaws.

So anyway, a big waste of time trying to be helpful.
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

 

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