Why RW marry abroad?

[catzenmouse]

Ahh.. the quest for an 'easier, softer way'.. little do they know how slippery these slopes really are!

Not only slippery but covered in broken glass and man eating rabbits (ala Monty Python's Holy Grail!)

[Turboguy]

Many will find out the hard way.  Part of life I guess.  I have done my share of sliding down the slopes.

[coco]

Just go to a pet shop and buy 4 goldfish,two male and two female.Put a male and a female in an aquarium and let's call them group A.The couple in the other one will be group B.
Let them together for one year.Of course you will have plenty of little fish.
Now you are going to mix a A and B ,you will see that members of group A are much interested in B members then in A members.
With RW and WM it is not different.150 years after Darwin that should be no problem to understand.

[PeeWee]

Just go to a pet shop and buy 4 goldfish,two male and two female.Put a male and a female in an aquarium and let's call them group A.The couple in the other one will be group B.
Let them together for one year.Of course you will have plenty of little fish.
Now you are going to mix a A and B ,you will see that members of group A are much interested in B members then in A members.
With RW and WM it is not different.150 years after Darwin that should be no problem to understand.

You recall, of course, the fate of the goldfish who stared in the movie "A Foreign Affair"? He was doing just fine until the RW got her hands on him.

Speaking of abroad and Monty, a Brit, Peewee will be in London for a few days later this month. If any of you UK lads would like to meet for a beer, email me. Thanks.

Peewee

[BC]

I guess this all goes back to the grass being greener on the other side.

Applies to both AM and RW

[Christopher]

Jett wrote
My belief is that Christopher and Elen are closest to the true reason the majority of women start to look abroad - stability (economic & emotional) and fairy tales.
In a country where currency can be worth a dollar one day and a nickel the next, I think economic stability is a valid desire. In a country where many (not all) men would find Lycus's theories completely acceptable, emotional stability is a valid desire. The "In the USA the streets are paved with gold" mentality is still quite prevelant, especially in the smaller towns. We know it's a fairy tale, but how would they? My wife did tons of research before arriving here, she thought there would be some difficulties, but she assumed she was very prepared for them...she was not. I think that many women don't fully comprehend the true magnitude of what living abroad entails, but it doesn't mean they're stupid or gullible.

I like how you broke up stability as economic and emotional.  Just as security should be broken up as money and emotional.  People often confuse the two as I have stated before.  Most of this comes for Western societies in the fact that marrying for love is a recent concept.  I would say it started at the end of WWII.  Before that people married for financial stability.  Could Joe support his wife and kids in the way the wife, with the approval of the parents, was used two.  You still had marriage alliances going on among the rich but it was slowly dying out.  The sixties was a tamer revolution compared to the twenties but saw the first generation emersed in the idea of marrying for love.  So that gives Western society only 46 years of experience with this concept.  Women are still clinging to the idea marrying for financial stability because of the upheavels in economics we sometimes feel and the fact that it so ingrained in our societies.  Now look at the FSU where the communist viewed the woman as a baby factory to produce more children for the sake of the state.  The only thing some women could hope for was stability of power.  Since I was not raised there during the Communist power years I can not say what money meant to these people but we know power meant a ton.  Gorbachov stated that it was the moral corruption of the state that led to the downfall of the Communist in the USSR.  Now 15 years after this fall the women are given their first chance to marry for love but they have up to 91 years of forced Communist thought to remove from their society.  So a lot of women want a rich man from the west because his money is equal to power that the communist had.  The party leaders that were once there who got their cut of everything that went on are gone.  My question is do they hope that the powerful man that they will marry here will love them in the end or has the concept of marrying for love not really entered their society yet.  Married guys I would be interested in hearing your wifes thought on this subject.  Enough philosophy for tonight.  Maybe I need to do a Descarte and drink therefore I am:)

[Gator]

PeeWee, I find your postings enigmatic.  First you espouse disrespectful Lytkiss crap and then brag about your insensitivity.   Then you turn 180 degrees and write, “I would hope that there are more reasons for this than to find a younger, prettier, sexier partner.”

That was discerning.  Why would a man who can be discerning also listen to Lytkiss as if he were a prophet.

Lytkiss is about controlling women and controlling the process.  A confident man has no need to control women and to control the process.  He understands women, he is respectful of women, and he participates freely and naturally, prompting the woman to do the same.  The two learn about each other and have fun doing it even if they are not meant for each other.

[andrewfi]

yet another insult hurled from our third world brethern. Again your jealousy of those who are living the good life and are not forced to live in 3rd world nations, such as yourself is showing, Andrew.

Peewee

Peewee, my words sprang not from some imagined jealously for your untold (and likely, untellable) wealth, but from the disgusting and mysogenistic posts that you made. I need have no jealousy of a man so obviously incomplete as your poor unfortunate self.

When you make such foolish statements you advertise over and over your own foolishness.

BTW, Estonia would not accurately be described as third world, unless the definition of 3rd word included having greater levels of economic freedom and personal freedom than the US:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006109
http://www.freewebs.com/globalliberty/rankings.htm
(Above links are representative and not definitive, OK!)

BTW, Hello Bucky!

[Turboguy]

Pretty cool post Andrewfin.  On the liberty one is was also interesting to see the rank and ranking of Russia and Belarus.

Congratulations on being No 1.  If it wasn't so darn cold there I would be loading up the u-haul.

Not always sure how much faith I put in those things.  10 years ago Pittsburgh was voted the most livable city in the USA.  If it was we would not be loosing population.  A few years after Pittsburgh they voted a mid western city I won't name but my time there did not make it too livable.  Maybe if you were upwind from the slaughterhouse, down wind I couldn't live there a week.

[Elen]

  Now look at the FSU where the communist viewed the woman as a baby factory to produce more children for the sake of the state.

Now you underestimate communists They expected us also to be a good workers for the sake of the state but not only homewives with a bunch of kids And young girls was supposed to be no less than  "студентка ,  спортсменка ,  комсомолка , и наконец просто красавица "  like comrade Saakov said ( Russian film classic if you didn't got a joke )

  The only thing some women could hope for was stability of power.  Since I was not raised there during the Communist power years I can not say what money meant to these people but we know power meant a ton.  Gorbachov stated that it was the moral corruption of the state that led to the downfall of the Communist in the USSR.

For sure you were not raised here You see the majority people of the USSR believe that it was exactly foolishness of Gorbachev like a leader of the state  and absent of any moral of democrats which led to downfall of the USSR

Now 15 years after this fall the women are given their first chance to marry for love but they have up to 91 years of forced Communist thought to remove from their society.

Never could guess that I got a right to marry for love only 15 years ago I should go and surprise my husband with such discovery 

So a lot of women want a rich man from the west because his money is equal to power that the communist had.  The party leaders that were once there who got their cut of everything that went on are gone.

It seems for me that you foreigners are obsessed with an idea about communist party power and its influence on EVERY aspect of common life in the USSR in much more degree than we who lived here. Fine job of your brain washing services
 

My question is do they hope that the powerful man that they will marry here will love them in the end or has the concept of marrying for love not really entered their society yet.  Married guys I would be interested in hearing your wifes thought on this subject.  Enough philosophy for tonight.  Maybe I need to do a Descarte and drink therefore I am:)

Yes it's enough drinking and inventing theories for you tonight 

[Elen]

My question is do they hope that the powerful man that they will marry here will love them in the end or has the concept of marrying for love not really entered their society yet.  Married guys I would be interested in hearing your wifes thought on this subject.  Enough philosophy for tonight.  Maybe I need to do a Descarte and drink therefore I am:)

If you have any interest in thoughts of Russian woman married to Russian male then I can say you that idea of marriage for love ( without any other "reasons" )  existed in Russian society for centuries and never depended on politic situation So don't flatter yourself with an idea that we got an opportunity to marry for love only after so called democratic ideas entered our society ( actually it was rather otherwise - to marry for money but not for love became more attractive exactly in last 15 years)

[Christopher]

If you have any interest in thoughts of Russian woman married to Russian male then I can say you that idea of marriage for love ( without any other "reasons" )  existed in Russian society for centuries and never depended on politic situation So don't flatter yourself with an idea that we got an opportunity to marry for love only after so called democratic ideas entered our society ( actually it was rather otherwise - to marry for money but not for love became more attractive exactly in last 15 years)

I would find it hard to believe that the Russian serf was able to marry for love.  Serfdom existed till 1861 and I doubt very much that the thought process just disappeared after it was abolished.  I think the last fifteen years has opened up the idea that they can marry for love.  Read the personals that are out there.  Most people marry there young because they think that is what they are supposed to do.  They are a lot of Americans who marry because they think that is what they are supposed to do.  Notice how I talked about Americans recently were able to marry for love but they are still struggling with the concept.  You are from there so you have many insights into the society that I do not butat the same time it can blind you about certain aspects of your society.  By the way I was not attacking the FSU.  Also I was stone cold sober.  Never take talk about the society you live in or have lived in personally.  I am from the US but could give a crap less whether or not someone burns a US flag.  It and our glorious leader King George the II do not represent me. 

I am sure there was corruption with Gorbachev but did that compare to Brezhnev?  I do not understand why you quoted me talking about power here. 

Elen
Never could guess that I got a right to marry for love only 15 years ago I should go and surprise my husband with such discovery  Grin

There is people that do not fit the pattern everywhere.  I would ask how many country girls marry for love. 

The divorce rate in the US is about 50% which is no different then it was in the late 1800's.  I was wondering if you know any statistics on the divorce rate in the FSU?   

Elen
It seems for me that you foreigners are obsessed with an idea about communist party power and its influence on EVERY aspect of common life in the USSR in much more degree than we who lived here. Fine job of your brain washing services

Oh there is no doubt that US government tried and succeeded in many cases to lie to us about what life was like in the USSR.  Remember we did no have a state censored media like you guys did.  The media owners decided what to censor themselves.  We did not have political prisoners like they did and possibly still do.  Although can make the case and prove it to with Guantanomo(?) and other bases.  They did have their day in court and maybe a few more.  But that does not compare to these example from Wikipedia:

    * Sharashka (шарашка, the goofing-off place) were in fact secret research laboratories, where the arrested and convicted scientists, some of them prominent, were anonymously developing new technologies, and also conducting basic research.
    * Psikhushka (психушка, the nut house), the forced medical treatment in psychiatric imprisonment was used, in lieu of camps, to isolate and break down political prisoners. This practice became much more common after the official dismantling of the Gulag system. See Vladimir Bukovsky, Pyotr Grigorenko.
    * Special camps or zones for children (Gulag jargon: "малолетки", maloletki, underaged), for disabled (in Spassk), and for mothers ("мамки", mamki) with babies.
    * Camps for "wives of traitors of Motherland" (there was a special category of repression: "Traitor of Motherland Family Member" (ЧСИР, член семьи изменника Родины)).
    * Under the supervision of Lavrenty Beria who headed both NKVD and the Soviet Atom bomb program until his demise in 1953, thousands of zeks were used to mine uranium ore and prepare test facilities on Novaya Zemlya, Vaygach Island, Semipalatinsk, among other sites. Reports even state that Gulag prisoners were used in early nuclear tests (the first was conducted in Semipalatinsk in 1949) in decontaminating radioactive areas and nuclear submarines.

Believe I am not saying I have all the answers.  I will gladly read anything you contribute to my undrestanding of the world and read it with an open mind.  Do not take anything I say personally about a country as an attack on you.  If you are willing to talk with me and help me undestand I will do the same with you.   

[Elen]

I would find it hard to believe that the Russian serf was able to marry for love.  Serfdom existed till 1861 and I doubt very much that the thought process just disappeared after it was abolished.

May be reading some Russian literature could help you to understand what фигню you are trying to imply with your theories? 

I think the last fifteen years has opened up the idea that they can marry for love.  Read the personals that are out there.  Most people marry there young because they think that is what they are supposed to do.

Exactly those who marry young do that because of love - other reasons like "must to " pop in older ages And i REALLY can't get your idea about last 15 years has opened something there in "love" mater

I am sure there was corruption with Gorbachev but did that compare to Brezhnev?  I do not understand why you quoted me talking about power here.

Gorbachev is famous here not with corruption but with his foolishness like a leader. That why [osted my comment to your words about reasons of downfall  And if you want to compare a level of corruption then I can say you that what we got under Elcin made Breznev looked like a saint angel 

There is people that do not fit the pattern everywhere.  I would ask how many country girls marry for love. 

Well even I who constantly was named here like an arrogant Muscovite give more credit for country girls in that matter Why for god sake  do you derivate them in ability to love and to marry about love? 

The divorce rate in the US is about 50% which is no different then it was in the late 1800's.  I was wondering if you know any statistics on the divorce rate in the FSU?   

I'm lazy to search internet for those numbers but in any way that statistic would not show correlation between divorce rate and reasons of marriage - love-power-money-calculation - or whatever it could be

    * Sharashka (шарашка, the goofing-off place) were in fact secret research laboratories, where the arrested and convicted scientists, some of them prominent, were anonymously developing new technologies, and also conducting basic research.
    * Psikhushka (психушка, the nut house), the forced medical treatment in psychiatric imprisonment was used, in lieu of camps, to isolate and break down political prisoners. This practice became much more common after the official dismantling of the Gulag system. See Vladimir Bukovsky, Pyotr Grigorenko.
    * Special camps or zones for children (Gulag jargon: "малолетки", maloletki, underaged), for disabled (in Spassk), and for mothers ("мамки", mamki) with babies.
    * Camps for "wives of traitors of Motherland" (there was a special category of repression: "Traitor of Motherland Family Member" (ЧСИР, член семьи изменника Родины)).
    * Under the supervision of Lavrenty Beria who headed both NKVD and the Soviet Atom bomb program until his demise in 1953, thousands of zeks were used to mine uranium ore and prepare test facilities on Novaya Zemlya, Vaygach Island, Semipalatinsk, among other sites. Reports even state that Gulag prisoners were used in early nuclear tests (the first was conducted in Semipalatinsk in 1949) in decontaminating radioactive areas and nuclear submarines.

And?  What would be a connection with marry for love here? Are you going to show me how all you wrote above srewed my Russian psyche that I lost an ability to love?  Or do you think that I'm SUCH old that I could share my life experience with you during those Lavrentyi Beria's years ( sorry I even could not ask my grand mom as she passed already)  Or do you think that dating some guy I thought about шарашка or Gulag and a thought about atomic bomb influenced my decission to marry my husband?  What's a point?

And if you didn't get MY point then it 's - don't try to stick some "special"  values and ways of acting in relationships to us just because we had different politic system  - such way of thinking would lead you only to dead end and mistakes We are much more the same to you in that matter than you could guess   

[catzenmouse]

Elen,

 I'd just like to say that I have very much enjoyed reading your posts and your perspective.

Ken

[Elen]

Ah I'm glad to entertain you with my communist viewpoints and ideas 

[groovlstk]

I am sure there was corruption with Gorbachev but did that compare to Brezhnev?  I do not understand why you quoted me talking about power here. 

Are you serious? Gorbachev and his appointed "reformer," Anatoly Chubais, created the class of billionaire oligarchs through rigged bids of state holdings in the 90s. The oligarchs in turn financed his re-election in 1996.

Cumulatively, these rigged bids were probably the greatest theft in the history of the world.

Gorbachev was the darling of Western press for his "reforms," most of which doomed pensioners and common people to unbelievable hardship.

[pitbull]

Groove, do you mean Yeltsin?
Yeltsin was elected the first Russian president in 1991 and reelected in 1996.
 

[groovlstk]

Groove, do you mean Yeltsin?
Yeltsin was elected the first Russian president in 1991 and reelected in 1996.
 

Blin, you're right, Pitbull. Rather than edit my earlier post I'll simply blame it on the pinot grigio that's cooling me on this sweltering day here

[pitbull]

It's just my "professional historian" thing...

I would forgive you anything, groov, for your excellent writing abilities!!!!
 

[catzenmouse]

Ah I'm glad to entertain you with my communist viewpoints and ideas 

Yes, it is entertaining! And also quite educational as well. Some ideas the same and some a bit different from the one I get from my communist girl at home...

Ken

[Christopher]

May be reading some Russian literature could help you to understand what фигню you are trying to imply with your theories? 

That would be nice to do but I have an AJAX course I am taking, learning Samba, and last but not least I am in the middle of three books right now.  Where did the summer go?  Are serfs who were forced to marry through arranged marriages in love?  They may have grown to love one another but that is doubtful.  Serfs were really no different then the slaves here in the US.  They were property and were treated like its.  Martin Bruber has a concept called Ich-du where he talks about people viewing other people in 1st, 2nd and 3rd person perspectives.  Being viewed as an it is not very appealing, I realize this is a little off poit.

Exactly those who marry young do that because of love - other reasons like "must to " pop in older ages And i REALLY can't get your idea about last 15 years has opened something there in "love" materGorbachev is famous here not with corruption but with his foolishness like a leader. That why [osted my comment to your words about reasons of downfall  And if you want to compare a level of corruption then I can say you that what we got under Elcin made Breznev looked like a saint angel 

Well if they both married for love why are they now divorced?  What is your definition of love?  That is an important insight and could make this conversation that goes nowhere.  I do not know who is the most corrupt but I think Gorbachov was maybe coming to an understanding of some of his own problems.  Remember he was part of the government.  As my current girlfriend says all forms of government are corrupt. 

Well even I who constantly was named here like an arrogant Muscovite give more credit for country girls in that matter Why for god sake  do you derivate them in ability to love and to marry about love?  I'm lazy to search internet for those numbers but in any way that statistic would not show correlation between divorce rate and reasons of marriage - love-power-money-calculation - or whatever it could be

I do not. It is just the way the world works sometimes.  When you have a limited number of options it forces you to things that are not for idealistic reasons.  My point with the divorce rate statistic is that if the both of you marry for love and then you get divorced because are many FSU woman say the man could not handle his reponsibility and left then he did not marry for love.  My definition of love is the willingness to sacrifice my life for my loved ones, by the way that is my view of friendship also.  Under this deefiniton the man leaving means he did not love his wife.  And in our conversation we are talking about love.

And?  What would be a connection with marry for love here? Are you going to show me how all you wrote above srewed my Russian psyche that I lost an ability to love?  Or do you think that I'm SUCH old that I could share my life experience with you during those Lavrentyi Beria's years ( sorry I even could not ask my grand mom as she passed already)  Or do you think that dating some guy I thought about шарашка or Gulag and a thought about atomic bomb influenced my decission to marry my husband?  What's a point?

Since you editied out my point about these being political prisons that, new point here that I assmed wrongly you would understand, would force people to take the world veiw held by the state.  Whatever screwed your psyche is whatever youwant to blame it on, sorry cheap shot.  I do not know ho old you are I was just picking a quick example.  I do not read Russian so ptting it in your post is a waste of time. 

And if you didn't get MY point then it 's - don't try to stick some "special"  values and ways of acting in relationships to us just because we had different politic system  - such way of thinking would lead you only to dead end and mistakes We are much more the same to you in that matter than you could guess   

Anyoe knows that polar opposites on a are actually almost the same in their thinking.  The scale is not a straight line but one the curves out and downward towards the two end points.

If you are going to quote medo so correctly and do not edit my statements to help your arguments.  You are taking this to personally so I will not answer any more of your post.

[Christopher]

Are you serious? Gorbachev and his appointed "reformer," Anatoly Chubais, created the class of billionaire oligarchs through rigged bids of state holdings in the 90s. The oligarchs in turn financed his re-election in 1996.

Cumulatively, these rigged bids were probably the greatest theft in the history of the world.

Gorbachev was the darling of Western press for his "reforms," most of which doomed pensioners and common people to unbelievable hardship.

I would say that the 40-50 million people that Stalin and his fiends had exterminated were the greatest asset that Russian leaders let go.  I do not know about you but I think life is worth more than any other asset.

[Christopher]

I just want to say that I am sorry for everything coming out as a block quote above.  It has been a lon day and the week is going to be tough.

[Jet]

what фигню you are trying to imply with your theories? 

roflmfao 

I can say you that what we got under Elcin made Breznev looked like a saint angel 

C'mon Elen, I heard Yelson was russia's best head of state EVER! 

[andrewfi]

Pretty cool post Andrewfin.  On the liberty one is was also interesting to see the rank and ranking of Russia and Belarus.

Congratulations on being No 1.  If it wasn't so darn cold there I would be loading up the u-haul.

Not always sure how much faith I put in those things.  10 years ago Pittsburgh was voted the most livable city in the USA.  If it was we would not be loosing population.  A few years after Pittsburgh they voted a mid western city I won't name but my time there did not make it too livable.  Maybe if you were upwind from the slaughterhouse, down wind I couldn't live there a week.

TG ~ These rankings are essentially subjective, the original source for the personal freedom rankings made the point. The original data is pretty much objective but the calculations of the rankings are essentially hidden and thus open to suggestions of a lack of objectivity. However it is likely that most external observers would tend to agree with the general trends. And, of course I was making a point about Peewee's poisoned comments in respect of his obvious lack of knowledge and the fallacy that flowed from his incorrect preconceptions.

Estonia has a long way to go to be heaven on earth, but even a casual observer here can note the large degree of personal & economic freedoms that are driving the rapid growth of the country. (Albeit some of my US colleagues are convinced that every BMW SUV is driven by a prostitute and every Lexus by a drug dealer!)