How has your relationship changed you?

[Doug S]

I used to be apolitical and just a little bit unpatriotic. Since marrying Olga, I have done a 180 and now find myself to be extremely patriotic, with strong poilitcal views. This really surprised me. (and it would really surprise my friends and family, who don't know about it yet.)

I think it's because I have now witnessed firsthand how the differences between freedom-justice and tyranny-corruption can positively change the life of somebody who can think out of the tyranny-corruption box but never had the chance. I'm talking about my Russian wife, Olga of course.

I had seen movies, read books, and heard stories about people who had undergone this transformation - defectors, etc. I even have a good friend who defected from the USSR during the Cold War. But when it's somebody you love, somebody you are so close to, it's different. And then having a child with that person - having strong and personal vested interests in the futures of two individuals. It caused me to wake up and really appreciate what we've got here in the U.S.

Subsequently, over the same period I dropped all of my romantic notions and naivete about Eastern Europe, FSU, etc. Like so many newbies, I thought it was a really great place when I first went. "Oh, look at the wonderful architecture!" Oh, look at all of the beautiful women!" "A day at the Dacha!" "Oh, look at these quaint customs and superstitions." "Oh, look old-fashioned family values!" Etc. But over the years the layers peeled, reality set in,  the "gee-whiz" cloud dissipated, and the rotten core slowly exposed itself. Well, that was a real wake-up call too.

DS

[Albert]

I am not and have not been married to a FSU woman.  But I have lived with 10 or so of them for a month or more at a stretch, and if I add it all up, it has been close to 2 years of living together 24/7.

And I must say that nothing has changed me.  In fact, from day one I was quite surprised to realize that we and the FSU people have a lot in common.  Sure there are some silly superstitions like the ones our grandparents might have had, but nothing that affects the relationship that much.  I just tell them that my grandparents used to believe those things also, and that is usually the last I hear of it.

Yes, the foods they prepare are a little different, but it doesn't take much to get them to modify a little (cut out the onions from every dish, etc.)

I am a strong person and that is evident to them from the first minute; so I have never had to get into the power struggles that many report here.

In short, I think that there aren't many differences at all between us and FSU people . . . . at least not compared to what I have found with respect to say Orientals, Muslims, or even those peoples south of the US border.

[Jumper]

Agree with what has already been posted by the married guys ..


The most profound in our case ?
We both have a lot more pateince.

These relationships will force you to resovle and look into the little things (as manchester pointed out)

Things you would overlook or assume in a relationsdhip within your own culture.
I suppose it doesnt have much to do with being Western / Russian.
it would likely happen in any combination of cross cultural marraige





Also its made more more health concious.
I pay more attention to what i eat , when i eat, and my exercise routine.
 
why? i notoce something more now..
a lot more.
 having traveled extensivly before this is no surprise to me,
but this reealtionship and experience with the FSU made it stick out a bit more.

wow! America is obese.very obese.

as much as Andrewfi will endlessly google statistics to prove otherwise..

it cant be denied, and no comparison whatsoever can be made between people in the US and just about anywhere else in the world, much less Eastern europe.

Silly example, but I met my wife for lunch today.there wasnt a person  in the place that was even close to height weight purportunant. ..
additionally to few there  being even close to reasonable weight,
There were at least 6 women and 2 or 3  men very very  obese,
 in the 300 or 450 pound range , and short of stature.
 I know it's not a scientific study, but its what i see daily anywhere around here and in most of the US.
you do not see so many of the average person carrying an additional 30 pounds  anywhere else in the world, nor do you see so many carrying an entire extra person.

are there people in shape in the US? absolutely!
but on average , we are a very out of shape culture and its getting exponentially worse than when i was a kid.

certainly has made me watch my own donut consumption 
we need to walk more, and eat more borsht i guess! 

[Jumper]

ahh i almost forgot..

ice in drink will kill you..
but oinly yuntill you live in the US awhile then you developm an immunity and can tolerate it easily..
its amazing.
really.
true story.

[ConnerVT]

Silly example, but I met my wife for lunch today.there wasnt a person  in the place that was even close to height weight purportunant. ..
additionally to few there  being even close to reasonable weight,
There were at least 6 women and 2 or 3  men very very  obese,
 in the 300 or 450 pound range , and short of stature.

Let me guess....  IHOP? (International House of Pancakes)

It's funny you should write this, as my son and I had a similar experience the other day.  I took him to Friendly's Ice Cream for dinner and an ice cream sundae,  As my wife was working that evening.  We were sitting and talking, waiting for our dinner, when I noticed him looking over my shoulder.

He being an 8 year old boy, and unsure if he likes girls or believes they have cooties, I asked him the obvious question, "What are you looking at, pretty girls?"  (I love to tease him)

He said, "No!  I'm looking at the ice cream the boy at the other table is getting!" (A bit annoyed at me, but he realized I was teasing.)

A minute later he observed, "I don't think there ARE any pretty girls in here."

And he was right.  Several very overweight women, and a few white haired ladies (who, for the most part, seemed physically healthier than the former).  Even the waitstaff wouldn't of made most peoples' A-list, and a couple even beer goggle wouldn't have helped.

I've a pretty sharp kid, I think...   

[PeeWee]

I used to be apolitical and just a little bit unpatriotic. Since marrying Olga, I have done a 180 and now find myself to be extremely patriotic, with strong poilitcal views. This really surprised me. (and it would really surprise my friends and family, who don't know about it yet.)

I think it's because I have now witnessed firsthand how the differences between freedom-justice and tyranny-corruption can positively change the life of somebody who can think out of the tyranny-corruption box but never had the chance. I'm talking about my Russian wife, Olga of course.

I had seen movies, read books, and heard stories about people who had undergone this transformation - defectors, etc. I even have a good friend who defected from the USSR during the Cold War. But when it's somebody you love, somebody you are so close to, it's different. And then having a child with that person - having strong and personal vested interests in the futures of two individuals. It caused me to wake up and really appreciate what we've got here in the U.S.

Subsequently, over the same period I dropped all of my romantic notions and naivete about Eastern Europe, FSU, etc. Like so many newbies, I thought it was a really great place when I first went. "Oh, look at the wonderful architecture!" Oh, look at all of the beautiful women!" "A day at the Dacha!" "Oh, look at these quaint customs and superstitions." "Oh, look old-fashioned family values!" Etc. But over the years the layers peeled, reality set in,  the "gee-whiz" cloud dissipated, and the rotten core slowly exposed itself. Well, that was a real wake-up call too.

DS

From the get go I had the opinion that the FSU was a screwed up place. The people are great and the countries, politically and functionally, are backward and somehow misaligned. It's the people and their culture that facinate me, not the place where they live.

Peewee 

[Doug S]

PeeWee,

If you ever get real close to some Russians, as in married to one (and her extended family), you will also come to see that the backwardness and political dysfunctionality has resulted in a lot of personal/psychological baggage manifesting itself in the people. The most permeating and dysfunctional thing in my opinion, is the lack of any real ethics. It's the root of most of FSU's problems, and problems with everything that Russians come into contact with, including electing public officials, industry and business, nuclear power stations, damaged submarines and dead sailors, the Russian "mail order bride" business and relationships between Russian wives and their Western husbands. Those countries and their people are never going to emerge from the dark cloud under which they exist until they develop a real intrinsic sense of, and respect for, ethics.

In trying to pull back in line with the topic of this thread - my 7-year marriage to a Russian woman has really caused me to be more conscious of my own sense of ethics, and to appreciate the highly ethical (relatively speaking) society and upbringing I unwittingly enjoyed by virtue of being an American citizen. I think I had just taken it all for granted up until now. Even though I had spent a lot of time in ethically-rotten third world countries. And not just as a tourist mind you, but with close personal and business relationships with citizens of those countries. (Including casual girlfriends and lovers. I guess all I really cared about were those countries' waves.)

Now, being married to somebody from such a country is different. Much different. And having a child with somebody from such a country seems to have amplified this change or realization in me. I guess it's because I love them so much and really want them to have good, healthy, happy lives with futures and opportunities. Also, because I have seen firsthand what just seven years of real opportunity and freedom has done for Olga.

It would be nice to think you can easily separate the people - their good qualities - from the messed up countries and their bad aspects; but it's not that easy. The two are painfully intertwined. This usually manifests itself as what we refer to as the "cultural differences" and "strong-willed" women on this group.

I just got a big dose of those two things with our recent house-guests for the last month - Olga's parents. Yes, they are great people, but to a limit. They are also extremely "messed up" (by our standards) in many areas because of where they come from. By "areas," I mean certain ways of thinking (lack of ethics being just one, ideas about child and human development being another), health and nutrition, and more. It's really complicated. And I can't just blow them off or dismiss them. Hell, they're family now.

The fact that Olga's managed to overcome a lot of her cultural obstructions to improving her life helps and provides a certain amount of insulation, but I can see that we will never be completely free of the "cloud." Ever.

Again, getting back to the topic - this is what has changed in me. I am now much more conscious of what it takes to keep such a cloud from engulfing a person, a family, an entire country. Free thinking, individualism, and a system that promotes and protects it. That's why I urge newbies to make a hard and clear distinction between this "strong-willed Russian women" excuse and Russian women who really have the potential to lead and contribute to happy, positive and productive lives in the West. 

DS

[Bruce]

Doug, great post!   

"Again, getting back to the topic - this is what has changed in me. I am now much more conscious of what it takes to keep such a cloud from engulfing a person, a family, an entire country."

I am hoping you can speak in depth about "what it takes to keep such a cloud from engulfing your family."  Any good specifics, how you dealt with and solved them you can post? 

[Manny]

Doug, great post!   

"Again, getting back to the topic - this is what has changed in me. I am now much more conscious of what it takes to keep such a cloud from engulfing a person, a family, an entire country."

I am hoping you can speak in depth about "what it takes to keep such a cloud from engulfing your family."  Any good specifics, how you dealt with and solved them you can post? 

I second that!

I would be interested in reading that too!

[BillyB]

Doug,

Good post. Some people say the worst women in the FSU make themselves available for marriage to foreigners. True in some cases but I also tend to believe some of the best women want to leave too. They understand there is a place in the world that values ethics more than the ethically challenged country they live in. That's the place they want to be and raise their kids. I don't blame them.

[Doug S]

Bruce, Manchester.

Thanks, but not here. I can give you the information through other channels. Just contact me privately.

Billy, thanks, too and you are right. I've got a lot to say about your points as well, but again, not here.

And there is also the issue of Western men abandoning their sense of ethics just to get Russian trophy wives or sleep with beautiful young Russian women. For those guys there is no hope of chasing the cloud away. They are just seeding the cloud. And they've pretty much created their own respective hells.

Doug

[Bruno]

Doug, great post!   

Don't agree... ethic is related to culture... It is not because a US citizen don't understand Russian ethic that it don't exist... the dark age of Russia is related to economie... i am almost sure that if American need to live in similar situation that Russian, they will maybe have a lower ethic comportment...

Each country have business, moral, relational ethic who vary from the US one... only a understanding of the other ethics allow good relationship, commercial exchange, etc ...

The "ethically-rotten third world countries" is really a insult to these country from someone who is narrow minded and don't try to understand them... in some of these "ethically-rotten third world countries", the given word have more value that your signature on a western countract... our modern western society have so much rules and laws because individual have no more ethic and without so rule, it will be anarchie...

Until now, Russian school have not yet feel the need to install metal detector on the main door or hire security guard for control drug dealer, traffic and other thing in the school... What country seem to have the more ethic children ? The only mass murder know in Russian school was due to a terrorist attack... for USA, seek a old topic here where Helen have post a map from USA with all the place where children have mass murder other children in school...

Not enough... Is it the dead penalty something ethic ? Is it the camp of Guantalamo where prisoner are keep without judgment something ethic ( i remember that war in Afghanistan and Irak is officially finish, so they are not more prisoner of war ) ?

Yes, Russian can have some ethic that we don't understand... But we are we for judge other when we have our own share of sh!t ?

PS : Europe is not better that FSU or/and USA

[Doug S]

O.K. Bruno, that does it. We're shipping you off to Gitmo for presenting such a weak argument.

I've had plenty of you're "given word" contracts, including with Russians,. They're almost always worth less than the paper they COULD have been printed on, and they're a cop out for societies who can't bear the thought of being held accountable. Sorry, I'm not buying that line of bullshit at all.

What in the world do shootings at grade schools have to do with adult ethics? They are ugly manifestations of deeply rooted social problems unique to American society, I'll give you that much. But they haven't got much to do with the kind of ethics we are discussing here. It's a weak comeback apparently used by you and others here in the past. If that's all you can come up with, then I'm not impressed.

I really prefer to leave petty and tired arguments about world politics out of this. I wish you wouldn't have taken this thread in that unfortunate direction. Didn't I read that Dan passed some kind of an (American) law against that somewhere around here?

And please list the Third World countries you have had the pleasure of mowing lawns for money in so that I may intelligently consider your claims of my having insulted them. Did you ever get paid?

Geez, if everybody in Mexico, Indonesia, and South America that owe me even the smallest sums of money on their "given words" (and in some written contracts as well) all paid up today, I could retire on the beach. (If they paid with interest of course.)

Give it a rest.

Doug 

[Bruno]

I've had plenty of you're "given word" contracts, including with Russians,. They're almost always worth less than the paper they COULD have been printed on, and they're a cop out for societies who can't bear the thought of being held accountable. Sorry, I'm not buying that line of bull*snip* at all.

You need first earn respect from your russian "associate"... if you act like you make here, showing that you are the American superior race and all the rest is sh!t, they will rip-off you at the first occassion...

What in the world do shootings at grade schools have to do with adult ethics? They are ugly manifestations of deeply rooted social problems unique to American society, I'll give you that much. But they haven't got much to do with the kind of ethics we are discussing here. It's a weak comeback apparently used by you and others here in the past. If that's all you can come up with, then I'm not impressed.

Ethic is related to moral value... these children will be the adult of tomorrow... yourself have a child... do you wait until he/she is adult to learn her ethic value or do you begin at a early stage... words like "don't thief", "don't lie", etc are ethic education...

I really prefer to leave petty and tired arguments about world politics out of this. I wish you wouldn't have taken this thread in that unfortunate direction. Didn't I read that Dan passed some kind of an (American) law against that somewhere around here?

It was one side of ethic... easy to say that you are not responsible for the politic & world politic from your country... remember that you have vote for these people...and it is not my goal to direct these treat only on politic... it was only one side between a lot of other...

And please list the Third World countries you have had the pleasure of mowing lawns for money in so that I may intelligently consider your claims of my having insulted them. Did you ever get paid?

List of country where i have work... no difference between 1,2,3 world... Belgium, Holland, Germany, Norway, Poland, Norway, Moldova, Italy, Yougoslavia, Congo, Somalia, Arab Emirat, Australia, Spain, and some more... Always pay, since i was olding the gun  Funny, the Arab Emirat have pay a bonus 10000$ to each people without we ask something...

Geez, if everybody in Mexico, Indonesia, and South America that owe me even the smallest sums of money on their "given words" (and in some written contracts as well) all paid up today, I could retire on the beach. (If they paid with interest of course.)

Quit your aptitude to be the superior human who is the best and save little russian lady from his hell of country... Maybe other will be not offended by your aptitude and they will respect contract... piss-off russian and you will pay double...

Give it a rest.

Why ? I have the right to dissagree with you. But don't worry, i am not far from my RWD ( and other forum ) retirment... your will be free to write your long post without a @sshole like me for disturb you

[BC]

I can go to the local market here and buy an item for 2 Euro.  The next guy that steps up to buy the same item might pay 3 because he is not aware of the custome of haggling over the price first.  Another might be able to get it for 1.50 because he can bargain better than I can.

Is it unethical?  No.. It's just the way it's done here.

In RU, when a 'deal' is struck between two parties, I'm pretty sure both parties are aware of unwritten, but locally acceptable rules of conduct regarding the contract.  Probably those most offended (and maybe the only ones) would be foreigners that are not aware of local standards or 'fine print'.