Elen, RWDMA, BC, and RW's Attitudes

[Elen]

That's may be cos they don't see the problems. If they don't see them, it doesn't mean they do not exist..

We are speaking not about problems Russia faces but about what affects women's decision of marry abroad
I'm tired to ask to show me where I refused to addmit such problems do exist

[dostogirl]

We are speaking not about problems Russia faces but about what affects women's decision of marry abroad

That's what I'm trying to explain to you. Problems of Russia directly influenced my decision to leave Russia and not marry a Russian. I do not want to leave in such a country and I do not want to have and raise kids in such a country. That's why I left Russia and that's why I married abroad.

[Elen]

Ok I belive you Now try to explian me that your case was rather common  at DATING business scene

( ps don't forget to mention what exactly  you mean telling SUCH contry because reasons to call Russia "SUCH-THAT and etc country are different for different groups of women )

[dostogirl]

Ok I belive you Now try to explin me that you case is rather common 

My case can represent a part of reasoning why RW leave Russia.  Some other RW may add to what I wrote.

[Elen]

formulate once more what were your personal reasons  - I drown already in all that information about bioligical weapons Aids sovok set of minds and etc - it;s better to compose them in lines 

BTW was your case a case of MARRY abroad or just about leaving country?

[dostogirl]

BTW were you case a case of MARRY abroad or justabout leaving country?

what case are you talking about here? I considered marrying only a foreigner, I was not interested in Russian guys (sorry guys, I know some of you read the forum).

formulate once more what were your personal reasons 

I'm not good at "forumlating" reasons by composing them in a line. I just wrote about them in my previous posts. AIDs and biological weapons may just be a simbol of problems in Russia, problems within the society, mentality and economy nowadays (and in the past as well) in Russia. Probably not a good example, but I got the idea Taz tried to tell us about.
My "line" of my personal reasons can be quite long    but I do have higher standards, I admit that.

[Elen]

what case are you talking about here? I considered marrying only a foreigner, I was not interested in Russian guys (sorry guys, I know some of you read the forum). I'm not good at "forumlating" reasons by composing them in a line. I just wrote about them in my previous posts. AIDs and biological weapons may just be a simbol of problems in Russia, problems within the society, mentality and economy nowadays (and in the past as well) in Russia. Probably not a good example, but I got the idea Taz tried to tell us about.
My "line" of my personal reasons can be quite long    but I do have higher standards, I admit that.

I was talking about ways to imigrate in other way than to mary foreigner. But it was not you case like I see
BTw from what I got from those long posts TAZ is trying to prove that life in Russian is SUCH bad that almost all population of RW are dreming to marry abroad and only such RW like Elen ( due to screwed mind who does not see problems ) stay there

Well it's your choice not telling about reasons Pity I think it would be usefull for boys to see what reasons lead RWDMA to such decision 
If in short could those reasons put in few lines -

 - you could not bear life in Russia at all ( for million reasons),
 - moving abroad was a matter of fact,
 - you didn;'t even try to date local guys,
 - there were no other ways to move to the West ( ot were they? )except marring to foreigner

 - something else ?

[Taz]

Okay find me even one RW who would put in her profile, wrote in her letters or somehow else expressed that when she considered a choice of marriage abroad she thought about biological weapones and AIDS 
yeah I'm going to belive such women that  it's their main concern

 As for thinking about better life style then WHERE did I deny such intensions?
And if I tell you the simple FACT that FAR from all RW have a wish to move abroad it's not that I close eyes on problems Russia faces now  and refuse to admit there is any of them. It's just those problems do not play that   role yu are trying to implay here in decision to go abroad for those RW who decided to stay here.

Why would they put that in their post? That would be idiotic. They are going to write things to attract men, not scare them off! There is no doubt that for some women it will be a factor in their decision even if they don't directly think about it. It will just be thought of as part of the uncertainty of the future.

Do you think an foreigner would put an add in Russia say "I hate the women from my country so I am looking in Russia for a woman" or "I am a fat, uneducated slob and can't find anyone here so I thought I'd look in Russia for a wife" in their ads. Seriously Elen, I think you are intelligent but sometimes I don't understand your blindness to facts at hand. Maybe you are so old (no offense meant) that it doesn't matter to you. I know many doctors that are seriously concerned about the ecological effects of where they live in Russia and want out.

Some women are simply economic immigrants. Whatever EACH WOMAN's reason is, it is HER reason and she isn't going to advertise her logic when she puts her profile on the internet. I am not saying all women want to leave but is obviously a problem for Russia whether you want to admit it or not. Many women are looking for a better life in Russia and if it takes marrying a foreigner to do it, then they will. I am not saying ALL Russian women are looking to marry foreigners. Some people are totally unaware of some of the issues. Some have found rich Russian husbands and have a better standard of living than many.

[dostogirl]

I was talking about ways to imigrate in other way than to mary foreigner

The only way I could immigrate to the US was through a marriage to an American. Another question is whether I wanted to live in the US particularly, cos there are other countries to choose from. 

Well it's your choice not telling about reasons

Elen, I understand Taz's posts are long, but do you ever read other people's posts?  If you read through my posts on the subject, you'll see the answers to your questions. 

1. you could not bear life in Russia at all ( for million reasons),
2. moving abroad was a matter of fact,
3. you didn;'t even try to date local guys,
4. there were no other ways to move to the West ( ot were they? )except marring to foreigner

assumptions..assumptions 

1. True..for million reasons
2. Not sure what you mean by "matter of fact"?
3. I dated local guys and that is another reason I decided to have a foreigner as a husband 
4. there are always means to move abroad, why not kill two birds with one stone: move to a good stable country and marry a person you love? 

[dostogirl]

Some women are simply economic immigrants. Whatever EACH WOMAN's reason is, it is HER reason

I agree. A person has a right to choose where to live and whom to marry for whatever reasons.
..All right, time for me to go to bed.. 

[Elen]

Why would they put that in their post? That would be idiotic. They are going to write things to attract men, not scare them off! There is no doubt that for some women it will be a factor in their decision even if they don't directly think about it. It will just be thought of as part of the uncertainty of the future.

Agree that would be idiotic so I could not get why you waste such many efforts to pushing THESE issues like a reasons for marry abroad And it nice to see again that you know what's there in women's head even if those women don't think directly about it.

Do you think an foreigner would put an add in Russia say "I hate the women from my country so I am looking in Russia for a woman"

Actually they do    They call it - "dissapointment in western women"   

Seriously Elen, I think you are intelligent but sometimes I don't understand your blindness to facts at hand. Maybe you are so old (no offense meant) that it doesn't matter to you. I know many doctors that are seriously concerned about the ecological effects of where they live in Russia and want out.

"Sometimes" - it's when you post a bunch of global problems (which have no connection to my own posts)  and wish I would see a connection to RW desires to marry abroad.  I'm smart but I can't read your mind on a distance
especially if I in my posts spoke about women who prefered to stay

Some women are simply economic immigrants. Whatever EACH WOMAN's reason is, it is HER reason and she isn't going to advertise her logic when she puts her profile on the internet. I am not saying all women want to leave but is obviously a problem for Russia whether you want to admit it or not. Many women are looking for a better life in Russia and if it takes marrying a foreigner to do it, then they will. I am not saying ALL Russian women are looking to marry foreigners. Some people are totally unaware of some of the issues. Some have found rich Russian husbands and have a better standard of living than many.

For I could admit it NOW like a problem for Russia ( I mean RW leaving a country) you should post not a list of Russian problems but some statistic and changes in that statistic for last years ( ask Andrew he could help you exactly with THIS topic  )  And those numbers would show YOU that process now goes down hill  - for million reasons for BOTH sides.

And againg it was not ME who doubted a fact that RW leave the country It was YOU who had doubts that any women in her right mind would have a wish to stay here

[Elen]

The only way I could immigrate to the US was through a marriage to an American. Another question is whether I wanted to live in the US particularly, cos there are other countries to choose from. 
 Elen, I understand Taz's posts are long, but do you ever read other people's posts?  If you read through my posts on the subject, you'll see the answers to your questions. 
 assumptions..assumptions 

1. True..for million reasons
2. Not sure what you mean by "matter of fact"?
3. I dated local guys and that is another reason I decided to have a foreigner as a husband 
4. there are always means to move abroad, why not kill two birds with one stone: move to a good stable country and marry a person you love? 

I do read other people's posts and I have a habit to quote those posts I answere to. ( I wish all my oponents would do the same for preventing  my misunderstanding what eactly of my post caused those Taz's sheets with  a list of Russian troubles for example)

 As for my question for you Dostogirl then I just preffer to have answers ( at least about reasons) putting  in lines but not to dig for them out from deeps of  diffuse posts making my own assumption - you yourself refused to compose those reasons. So I did it myself in a way I got it ( next time be more clear  with your posts)

So what we have

1. there were million reasons not to live in Russia
2. (* I meant that) decision to move abroad had been done, mind ahs been set and there were no ways to re think .
3. OK you dated locals boys but saw them all like beeing lower for your expectations
4. theoretically there were ways to immigrate but you chose this one - why not ( OK - like you say)

I leave to boys to comprehend such variant of RWDMA

[Taz]

Elen- as usual you always want to have the last word in a debate, it is your nature. That is why my comments in my previoust post. I am glad you are happy living where you are at. Obviously many Russian aren't happy living there. Russia has the second highest rate of suicide in the world, only beaten by another Soviet Bloc country, according to the WHO. You can continue to live in your little fantasyland and keep drinking your drink that clouds the clarity of your mind.

I am surprised more women aren't fleeing Russia as fast as they can. Sadly some people wish for the "good old days" when Stalin was in charge and murdered millions of people. I love visiting Russia and working there from time to time. I thank God every day that I don't live there though. Russia is a land of contradictions that really should be experienced firsthand and then kept at a safe distance. It always amazed me how "rich" the country could be in so many ways and then how "poor" the average person would be by comparison.

I think Dostogirl had the right idea. Find a good man in a foreign country; you get both love and a better place to live and raise a family.

[Elen]

I am glad you are happy living where you are at.

Thanks  would also glad if you leave your comments about my clouded with drink mind for yourself

I am surprised more women aren't fleeing Russia as fast as they can.

At your place I was not be only "surprised" but would question yourself  why a reality does not fit those ideas which you have in your clear mind. May be something wrong with ideas but not with such huge part of females' population in FSU ?

Sadly some people wish for the "good old days" when Stalin was in charge and murdered millions of people. I love visiting Russia and working there from time to time. I thank God every day that I don't live there though. Russia is a land of contradictions that really should be experienced firsthand and then kept at a safe distance. It always amazed me how "rich" the country could be in so many ways and then how "poor" the average person would be by comparison.

I doubt you could have any sinsere feeling to Russia ( sadness-gladiness- hope - whatsever) but never mind  Any way thank for your kind words about my country  I just only wonder what a howl would raise here if I said something smilar about the USA.  When you find in sometime some right girl for yourself - say her these words too. I would not sugget othr though to do the same  - just friendly advice - nothing to
discuss

I think Dostogirl had the right idea. Find a good man in a foreign country; you get both love and a better place to live and raise a family.

I hope you do realise tht such "right" idea could nopt be right for any girl here

 Well hat an easy task - I presume vise versa - to find a good woman who wishes to escape that black hole called FSU  should be even more easier task, right?   

What's a problem guys? Вперед и с песнями  Good luck

My duty is over Bye

[Bruno]

Bruno- I suggest you recheck your stats. The average birthrate per Russian couple is 1.2-1.3 (depending on who you believe). Normal amount to ensure the population doesn't decline is 2.1 per couple. I suggest you recheck your facts. It would be a different situation IF Russia was over populated or wasn't already suffering the effects of this. It was such a problem that even the mayor of Moscow was suggesting "incentives" for people to have more children. This totally contrary to what you think is normal.

No time for reply to all but i will make it for the first topic...

You use the average birth rate by couple... and you say that 2.1 per couple is the amount needed... what you forget to see is that the amount of couple in % is different from one country to the other... if everybody form a couple, a 2.0 is enough... if 50% of the population is not form a couple, a 4.0 is needed...

My number are the average annual number of births during a year per 1,000 persons in the population at midyear; also known as crude birth rate. The birth rate is usually the dominant factor in determining the rate of population growth. It depends on both the level of fertility and the age structure of the population.

Russia have only 9.8 , lower that the 14.14 of USA but more high that the 8.33 of Germany, the 8.81 of Austria, the 8.89 of Italy, the 9.47 of Japan, etc ... the top is around 40, mainly poor african country...

And here too, we have incitive for have more children, mainly financial advantage... a example, big family ( from 3 child ) can loan money from state without having to pay interest for buy a home, public transport at 50% of price, energy more cheap, etc... but it is not working... only first generation of immigrant make enough child for keep our population stable... the second generation act like other Belgium citizen, low birth rate... It is more a society and mentality problem...

[andrewfi]

Current birthrate in Russia is not terribly bad and is rising - what has happened is that women have delayed the normal time to start bearing kids.  Afew years ago it was about 21, now it is nearly 27. Because of this, almost whatever policy of the government might offer, birthrate will continue to rise as delayed breeding commences.

It is the death rate that is the kicker. That said, Putin and interested others are right to be urging the flower of Russian womanhood to breed. It is not as if the place was overpopulated anyway!

[beattledog]

The breeding needs to increase in Russia, along with a decrease in the death rate.

beattledog

[andrewfi]

Beattledog, many people do not understand that death rate and birthrate are intertwined. If you look at the biorthrate figures for Russia in the context of the deathrate you will note that if the deathrate were similar to the countries in which borth rate is similar then the Russian situation would be very different. Birth rate largely takes care of itself. People DO breed and the birthrate is rising and will continue to do so. The deathrate is intractibly high. On the one hand it is plausible to suggest that the deathrate is highest among the poorest people and that the death rate for middle class and better is pretty much as most western nations, but on the other hand there are a lot of poor people...

As noted, once the deathrate is normalised then population WILL rise. But yes, in so far as Russia is underpopulated in comparison to land area more people are needed, although of course some would argue with jsutification that much of Russia is essentially uninhabitable and in those terms is hardly as underpopualted as a first look might suggest.

[Son of Clyde]

Doug S.

I know not how the other married men here will react to your rather long and painfully boring tale, but all I can say is; "Boy, you sure are full of yourself".  If you intended to insult us all, you certainly achieved your goal. 

I have endured my share of insults from Dougie boy and have come to expect so much from him. It is suprising he has not been banned from RWG for his dogpile post of a few months ago, insuting the site, the Mods and everyone else he could think of. If he wants to post his 23 part series, I know of one guy who will not be reading any of them. Too bad he couldn't be a writer of short stories.

[dostogirl]

I just preffer to have answers putting  in lines

well, and I prefer them simply in posts with explanations, not taken out of the context  Just a different approach 

2. (* I meant that) decision to move abroad had been done, mind has been set and there were no ways to re think .

The decision has been made a long time ago..All I did is just worked towards the goal. It may seem odd to you, but it is something I wanted to happen since I was a child.

3. OK you dated locals boys but saw them all like being lower for your expectations

No, I didn't see them, they actually WERE not up to my expectations. Again, I do not see myself living with a person whose morals do not really coinside with mine. I expect some respect and understanding and support (I don't think my expectations are that high, actually. Not for a foreign guy at least). Something I haven't seen among Russian guys that much. Now, here I have to mention that I'm not from Moscow, but from a relatively small city, so the choice of RM was limited. But I didn't see myself moving to Moscow just to have a better choice of men. It was simpler for me to move abroad at that point, what I eventually did.

[Elen]

Well one or another way I think in such lines it would be more clerar what goals, intention and reasons RWDMA have.  And may be reading your explanation somebody would stop to see me - just RW - like "second sort " just because I don't want to marry abroad 

[dostogirl]

somebody would stop to see me - just RW - like "second sort " just because I don't want to marry abroad 

I don't think anyone is seeing you in this way, Elen. I think they are concerned you are seeing their RW as "second sort", because they left Russia.. 

[Elen]

I don't think anyone is seeing you in this way, Elen. I think they are concerned you are seeing their RW as "second sort", because they left Russia.. 

Well it was not me who gave estimation and call various names those RW - it always was otherwise at least at THIS board - any my attempt to say that not everybody have a desire to leave the country caused a fountain of compliments in address of my personality-awareness- adequacy of my set of mind  - even about my sex orientation

[BillyB]

Putin and interested others are right to be urging the flower of Russian womanhood to breed.

There should be no problem finding male volunteers to do their part!

[Taz]

Bruno- again you don’t quite get it. You ASSUME that there will be only ONE pairing per person. There can be multiple pairings between multiple people. The point is the statistics are a way to compare between countries on a similar basis. No statistic is perfect but we can compare the relative nature of them.

The problem is there is also a problem with number of males vs. females and this doesn’t help either. People in genera in Russia l can’t afford large families. Again I will remind allthat Putin himself said demographic issues are a major problem. Considering the tendency the government tends to downplay negative info there they probably consider it almost catastrophic to bring it up in a national address. So obviously Putin doesn’t agree with your take on the statistics either.

You don’t have to believe anything of what I write. You can believe the snow job of Elen. It doesn’t really matter to me for the most part. I do suggest you look at in a slightly different context. Suppose you believe me and I am wrong, would it really “hurt you” or your chances with RW? Not likely. What if I am right and you ignore my information, then it could have a very negative impact. I am basically describing a lot of dynamics at work here that have given rise to RW looking beyond their borders for mates?

It is something many of the RW feel instinctively even if they don’t know the statistics behind their feelings. Just like you may feel the job market is tightening in your area even though you haven’t seen any economic data regarding it.

Since Elen is the self-appointed expert on ALL RW, perhaps she can explain why RW have chosen to leave Russia in such great numbers to marry foreigners. It isn’t simply a lack of men either. All the things I have mentioned directly contribute to this.

With higher rates of abortion than births it doesn't exactly bode well for the country. The only reason it isn't a catastrophe right now is that immigration have helped offset some of the decline in the native population. If you factor that out it is horrendous what is going on.