Are You The One For Me? Negotiable vs. Non-Negotiable Qualities

[andrewfi]

I came across this article today, it seemed appropriate for this forum. It discusses one of the fundamental issues of starting to build a relationship and is especially relevant given the nature of the MOB process.

Choosing your peer, your “equal”, your compatible partner in life is perhaps one of the biggest and most important decisions you’ll ever make. The right choice brings a lifetime of incredible joy, love, sharing and support. The wrong choice, however, brings much pain, anger, resentment and disappointment along with record breaking numbers of marriages now dissolving and ending in divorce. Far too often these days we will settle for less than God’s best for us and stay in mediocre and unfulfilling relationships because we’re not exactly sure what qualities we’re looking for in a potential mate. If we don’t know what we’re looking for, how do we now if we’ve found it?/...
To see the complete article go here: http://www.knowhow-now.com/Dating-article43418-AreYouTheOneForMeNegotiablevsNonNegotiableQualities.html

[TexasBoar]

"God's best for us?"  ???

Pertinent, if somewhat obvious points otherwise.

~Boar

[Gator]

I once made a list of what I seek in a woman.  It would have been disatrous to show it to a woman because it was too demanding, as if I were looking for perfection. 

I tried to be analytical in applying it and gave up.  Love is an intuitive matter, totally dependent upon feelings for which we have no control.
If you spend enough time with a woman, our natural filter works it out.  Plus the woman has her list and she is filtering you too.

[TexasBoar]

For myself . . . well, there has to be chemistry, I have to like looking at her, and I have to enjoy talking to her.  That's pretty much it.

There are other factors that definitely improve compatibility over the long haul---similar goals in life, common interests, and so forth, and I do look for women who "fill in my gaps" . . . it's nice if they're better socially than I am, for example . . . but it starts with whether or not I can keep my hands off her. 

Dunno if that's shallow, or just straight up guy.

~Boar

[Turboguy]

Just remember the old Amish Dutch saying, "Kissing wears out, Cookin don't".

Damn, I think I have been reading too many of Beattledogs post.  That is something he would say,

[KenC]

Personally, I like what Groovistk wrote as a non-negotiable:

"If I had to pick a single piece of advice for guys just starting out, it would be never fall for or even consider marrying a girl who is not drop-dead crazy in love with you."

I feel that those words are an instant classic!  Maybe something like this:
Marrying a woman that is head over heels crazy in love with you, should be non-negotiable.
KenC

[BC]

I once made a list of what I seek in a woman.  It would have been disatrous to show it to a woman because it was too demanding, as if I were looking for perfection. 

I tried to be analytical in applying it and gave up.  Love is an intuitive matter, totally dependent upon feelings for which we have no control.
If you spend enough time with a woman, our natural filter works it out.  Plus the woman has her list and she is filtering you too.

Gator,

Not picking on you but this natural process you describe works best at home where no time constraints or other pressures are forcing a decision.  The luxury of time on your side to do the filtering is probably hard to come by with foreign dating (which is a far cry from foreign introductions).

It seems love, infatuation/limmerance are man's worst enemies in this quest so better to have some basic criteria/priorities going in.

FWIW

[andrewfi]

"God's best for us?"  ???

Pertinent, if somewhat obvious points otherwise.

~Boar

Just because something is 'obvious' does not mean that it is commonly done - kinda like the obvious lack of that most common attribute 'common sense'.

IMHO,yes, one does not necessarily need to be too definate in circumstances where one has the opportunity to just bump along with somebody, but that takes time. In the MOB arena time is lacking and thus a greater degree of introspection and specification seems appropriate. Also, to a degree, given that sooo many guys seeking foreign wives have either 'rejected' their peers, or have a history of unfulfille relationships, perhaps this particular sugroup of humanity is in greater need of examination of goals - as the writer points out, if one is seeking too much then success is unlikely. Setting out specifications may help the hopeful wife hunter to become a little more realsitic in his goalsetting.

[Turboguy]

It seems love, infatuation/limmerance are man's worst enemies in this quest so better to have some basic criteria/priorities going in.

I think that is very true in several ways BC.   One is when it starts to cloud our judgement and we want something to work so bad that we start ignoring things we should not.  That may be red flags or just differneces in goals or ideas,

Another is when it is too one sided and we are totally hooked on a gal who is just sorta interested.   You really do need a gal who is really hooked on you or it will not work.

[beattledog]

Gator

Are you the Gator that has posted in the post on the  Latin American board

beattledog

[Gator]

Are you the Gator that has posted in the post on the  Latin American board

No.  That would be some other idiot.

[Gator]

My short list of non-negotiable qualities that I appreciate and seek in a woman:

Brains
Beauty
Sense of Humor
Honesty

That fourth one takes time to determine, and it frequently is a deal breaker.

Actually there are many more items on my list, dealing with values and goals, but I find these four to be a good starting point.

[Gator]

Finally, what man would marry someone who is not in love with him?  Speaking of the obvious!  I suppose the word "crazy" is the distinguisher.  "Crazy" sounds like a teenager and describes a phase of love that is mostly hormonally driven and tends to dissipate in a year or two.


Now try to determine if she loves you given a language barrier, cultural differences and an age gap.  That takes time for which there is no substitute.  A mynet is not a good clue. 

And I do empathize with men who because of money, job and time constraints try do this in one week or even after 2-3 week-long meetings.  May the sun shine on them and light their path.

[groovlstk]

Finally, what man would marry someone who is not in love with him?  Speaking of the obvious! 

After reading of the many failures here and on other forums, do you think such "obvious" advice is often heeded?

There are many guys who marry Russian women who are not in love with them; and I may be wrong, but I think that's the case in the majority of K1s that are filed in the US. Many (even decent) girls will agree to marry a guy she can trust, whom they sense some chemistry with, whom they feel there's a possibility that their marriage can work long-term. If she's beautiful enough, men will believe what they want to believe.

If you're up for a little research, sign up at www.missingheart.ru, and have a chat with the thousands of Russian and Ukrainian women looking for romance who came to the US on K1s and then divorced after a year or two. I communicated with many women there and their stories were depressingly similar. One-week wonder stories abound, lots of the women are still married to their mules and are now looking to trade up. The last girl I dated there, who is living on Long Island, didn't even wait until she was married to begin searching for his replacement.

[Gator]

Groov,

Thanks for the dose of reality.

I would agree with your statement that most K-1 visa applications are filed without the woman loving the man.  RW are born as skeptics.  Skepticism is not a good foundation for quickly falling in love.

The question is how many RW come here on a K-1 in “good faith”, hoping for love and willing to do their part in making the marriage work.  And in how many of those cases did love develop in 9-10 months between preparing the K-1 and proclaiming "I do."  Or in the two-year Green Card period?

[Jumper]

The question is how many RW come here on a K-1 in “good faith”, hoping for love and willing to do their part in making the marriage work.

my guess after knowing many here stateside(and in england as well)
 and also a few RW that have returned homeland..and now knowing their feelings prior ,during, and after thier relationships-

I would say this situation describes the majority.
but majority can cover a large range eh? (51%- 99%?)

of those how many later on fall madly in *love*?
and in what time frame?
 thats surely an unknown element that will likely remain a mystery -
just like attempting to define the word love, and what it means to most people.

to add complication to the situations ,, i feel there are variuos degrees of the above scenerios?

in my own example my wife loved me..and we were married before she relocated to the US.
so i think it was a bit stronger bond than simply "good faith"
but perhaps much much less than what we share now.
She is madly "crazy" in love with me now
and has been for a couple of years..(despite all my glaring faults)
 but to pin point a moment in time that that happened would be truly difficult.

to say it was AFTER we married would be accurate, but perhaps shocking to some?
but not to me. I knew it was a bit more than good faith,
 but also knew it was not the level many hope things would be at for marriage in a more traditional sense..

However ,I knew her long enough and well enough,
 to know she would put as big as effort into making it work ,as i would ,
and I took that chance with open eyes,but realistic expectations.
(she took a much greater risk ?)

Honestly, as great as things turned out for us,
It's hard for me to really advise anyone else to follow that path.
 It was the right path for me,(and us) for many reasons  and remains that way.


On my wifes part, in very TYPICAL Ukranian fashion
She knew who i was as a person and man, and believed I would be this person once married and in the long term , enough to marrty,
but did not fully TRUST that i would be or remain  this person, always keeping a lil skeptism , and in fact expecting the worst , for me to someday turn into some ogre
When surprisingly her initial faith in me , turned out to be accurate on the positive side , she allowed herself to actually fall completely in love.
Thats my take and i'm sticking to it..
( i may be cynical, but i truly believe most RW to follow this path of trusting ,
but verify, even in such things as love LOL)

 
 I do think it takes a certain mindset by both people, and a stronger than average commitment ! (yes you heard me, STRONGER than the average marital commiment)

 
Also i think many many more travel the same path I(we) took ,but have no idea they are walking it..


The pressures of a K1 ,and culture shock, can quickly numb a situation based merely on good faith..
it actually amazes me just how many pull through to really good marriages, and proves the strenght of the human spirit.

[andrewfi]

I would agree with your statement that most K-1 visa applications are filed without the woman loving the man.  RW are born as skeptics.  Skepticism is not a good foundation for quickly falling in love.

The above truth goes to my contention that to most women seeking a foreign husband, and many who do not, are looking upon marriage as a career choice. This is not necessarily a bad thing, IMHO, as long as other elements are in place. After all, romantic love is a pretty new invention for ordinary folk. In the US and UK just 100 years ago the main reason for marriage was pregnancy. Romantic love seems to come with a lifestyle that allows for leisure. In that circumstance it is hardly likely that a person used to a hard and dreary life is going to be in love with her suitor - she probably does not even beleive in the concept as being applicable to her. She canchange her mind though. I have seen it happen.

Guys, don't expect too much.
After all, you have gone from a life of rejection (often), loneliness (often) and too frequent an acaquaintance with Madam Palm and her five lovely daughters to one where you are wanted, not lonely and no longer limited to the solitary vice. What more do you want from your life and companion, eh?

[docetae]

On my wifes part, in very TYPICAL Ukranian fashion
She knew who i was as a person and man, and believed I would be this person once married and in the long term , enough to marrty,
but did not fully TRUST that i would be or remain  this person, always keeping a lil skeptism , and in fact expecting the worst , for me to someday turn into some ogre
When surprisingly her initial faith in me , turned out to be accurate on the positive side , she allowed herself to actually fall completely in love.

This is the best description I have read on this topic ....I don't know why but it's remembering me someone I know ...

[TexasBoar]

Just remember the old Amish Dutch saying, "Kissing wears out, Cookin don't".

Damn, I think I have been reading too many of Beattledogs post.  That is something he would say,

Well, to be perfectly honest with you, TG, I don't think I've ever been in a relationship where the kissing didn't last.  Couple of those, it even lasted longer than the relationship itself . . . heh.   

And I can already cook pretty good.

~Boar

[TexasBoar]

I would agree with your statement that most K-1 visa applications are filed without the woman loving the man.  RW are born as skeptics.  Skepticism is not a good foundation for quickly falling in love.

The above truth goes to my contention that to most women seeking a foreign husband, and many who do not, are looking upon marriage as a career choice. This is not necessarily a bad thing, IMHO, as long as other elements are in place. After all, romantic love is a pretty new invention for ordinary folk.

It used to be said, just a generation or two ago, that if you made a good match . . . love would come.  That's one of the reasons whole families were often involved in those choices, or community matchmakers---because youthful infatuation was rarely to be trusted with such important decisions.

The "Me Generation's" contribution to the divorce rate would seem to suggest our grandparents were on to something there.

~Boar

[prince_alfie]

Negotiable qualities:

1) religion- having studied comparative religion, I'm pretty liberal about this one... but no Wicca or wierd Scientiology
2) politics
3) philosophy of life
4) looks- somewhat can compromise on this issue; no models!
5) origins- FSU, Russia, wherever is fine with me...
6) education
7) single/divorce status
social drinking

Non-negotiable qualities

1) belief in God
2) no MacDonalds ever; as little fast food as possible
3) home cooking
4) looks- no obesity, overweight = health
5) health
6) smoking- absolutely none whatsoever
7) must want to have children
hardworking, good habits
9) open-minded
10) honest, kind, humble
11) no materialism or Paris Hilton-like qualities
12) modest and affectioniate romantically and sexually

I guess that enough now...

[Jumper]

Guys, don't expect too much.
After all, you have gone from a life of rejection (often), loneliness (often) and too frequent an acaquaintance with Madam Palm and her five lovely daughters to one where you are wanted, not lonely and no longer limited to the solitary vice. What more do you want from your life and companion, eh?
 

a LOT more actually ,
but perhaps thats just me? andrewfi

isnt  THAT part of where the negtioble or non negotiable comes into play?
and of course varies wildly between individuals..

Perhaps because i was never a charter member in the Lonely hearts club,
  I did, and still do,  expect much more from my partner in life,
than just the rather dreary simple cure to a life of lonely self gratification  circumstance you describe.

However , i did not expect them all  to be met after a few letters, or a couple of visits, or even after dating *awhile*
 


 

[Jumper]

no materialism or Paris Hilton-like qualities

you don't need to date FSU girls,oir women from another countryt..

 you need to date women from a completely other century then.. LOL

unless you are ghandi, and have no matrial needs yourself? ?


just razzing you prince..

[prince_alfie]

Oh, I am materialistic in some ways. But for me it's a practical materialism. For example, I love Apple computers because they work without much trouble. But I don't care for high fashion. Why wear Prada when my Gap works just as well? Why drive a Hummer when a Mini Cooper will just do?

[jb]

Well said, AJ,

I've noted elsewhere on many threads relating to One Week Wonders, that relationships seem to go through phases.  One of the most powerful is the initial blast of limerace, or physical attraction/infatuation, during that period red flags are largely ignored, no matter how poor the match up is; a man or woman will find a way to justify bad behavior on the part of a partner they are enamored with.  This is the main reason I do not subscribe to the notion of "Love At First Sight". 

When my wife and I decided we were an item worth further exploration we went through the same things everyone else does.  She was a goddess in my eyes and I was her prince charming.  In other words, we had donned the rose colored glasses.  Everything was negotiable at that point.  This is a time when it is extremely important to interact with the family and friends of your love interest.  Those people are not wearing the rose colored glasses and are able see right through the haze which is fogging your view.  If your g/f's father/mother, or her friends don't like you, they/she/them, probably see a bad match and are sending some very important messages. 

When do you know that you love, or are truly loved?  Hard to say, however, I'd venture to guess that the realization of love is a more growing phenom which will only occur to you over time and especially when you are apart.  While a couple are in each others constant company they are getting a continuous hit off a very potent brain drug which provides all the instant gratification they need,,, for the moment.  It is during those periods of separation when it dawns on people, either they miss their lover terribly and have a great empty hole in their heart, or,,, they perk right up when they see the next attractive person of the opposite sex walk by.  I submit that there are a great number of people who never know real love, they just amble through life in varying degrees of lust, always confusing the two emotions.  Whenever I hear that a person has been married and divorced a dozen times, a la Mickey Rooney, Liz Taylor, et al Hollywood, I see people who are only in love with themself and have never experienced true love.  The same might be said for the person who reaches the age of 50 without having ever been married.  I find it very difficult to believe anyone can live that long and interact with their fellow humans in the same social strata on a daily basis, and not have met someone during all that time who didn't flip their switches.

I think that men can make all the lists they could ever want or dream up re negotiable vs. non-negotiable qualities while they are sober, and the moment the right woman waltzes into their life, the list flies out the window.