Afghanistan

[2tallbill]

It is wrong to say that Russian people cannot be blamed for the actions of Putin.

Yes, it is wrong. It is also wrong for you to insult Russians who come here to
participate in the forum. This is fodder for another thread.

[BC]

False dichotomy fallacy, you do this all the time.

Is the premise or argument unsound?  If not, my statement does not pose a false dilemma/dichotomy.

Trump wanted to leave, so did Biden, so does 2tallbill. Nobody said that they wanted
to renege on the agreement. So STOP IT.

What feasible options do you see?

Biden changed the agreement. Do you remember we were going to leave in May.
Did we renege on the agreement? No, team Biden altered the timeline. Stop with
the subterfuge.

AFAIK the extension was negotiated?  Any info how that came about?

Biden screwed it up. There is no other way to look at it. He should have sent the
civilians home first. He closed the Bagram airbase making it more difficult to get
American civilians home.

Civilians and USC's were asked to leave for some time when normal commercial travel was possible.  IIRC at least 6 months.  Is that correct?  Was closing Bagram air base part of the agreement?

What the United States of America is doing, is offering the possibility of leaving the country, to those who previously had not done so, and for a limited amount of time.  It is also committed to assisting any USC's that for whatever reason are not able to leave by the deadline.  Assurances have been made by the Taliban that such will be possible, and several countries are attempting to set up transportation possibilities after the last American military flight out of Kabul.

You never answered my question

The answer is as many as is possible.

[BillyB]

It would help your cause if you at least read, and understood, the conditions of the peace deal. Let me at least make it easier for you. here:

http://www.axios.com/trump-taliban-agreement-doha-biden-8dabe136-6dce-4e43-9289-98551bd47ed6.html

Further, Trump made no threats that you spoke off, LMAO. Think about it. Why make idle verbal threats if you already *have* a peace deal with a clearly defined tenets. Trump wasn't even in attendance when the deal was made.

Taliban repeatedly violated that deal since its signing, and Trump didn't do anything! You may not like to read/hear that fact, but you still cannot change that reality.

Trump got rid of ISIS. Then he pounded the Taliban with a record number of bombs in 2019 to pacify them. Since early 2020 they negotiated for peace and since then, no American troops died. 20 months under Trump's deal no American troops dead. That is as close to perfection as one can get when dealing with thugs. 2 weeks under Biden over a dozen dead. Guess which leader soldiers prefer?


http://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/01/27/us-conducted-record-setting-bomb-drops-over-afghanistan-2019.html


Trump never promised to leave Afghanistan completely like you're claiming. The deal was for the Taliban and corrupt Afghan government to power share while we leave 800 troops there to clean up any ISIS cells, keep them locked up, and make sure both govt. groups stayed honest. Trump left 2500 troops there that significantly reduced the problems which worked until Biden's actions.

Now that ISIS was released from prison thanks to Biden telling the Defense department to leave them behind while evacuating, almost 200 people now died hundreds injured and the seeds of future terrorist attacks and war have been planted. We'll have to buy all new equipment for the new war because we left 85 billion worth behind for the terrorists.. Biden and his puppet masters aren't that dumb. They're going to enrich the industrial war complex again after getting people praising them for leaving. Trump's plan was successfully winding down the war and need for weapons.

China will begin control of Central Asia. India won't like that they'll be surrounded by more enemies. Expect them to buy more weapons. Pakistan got 33 billion from America to 'help' us on the war on terror but Trump stopped the money because some of the money would go back to lobbying politicians to increase payments to Pakistan while they hide Bin Laden and other big Taliban leaders. A lot of the bad actors in the world wanted Trump out. The American propaganda media made Trump out to be a bad guy. Most Americans have been brainwashed to think bad is good and good is bad.

[BillyB]

Trump got rid of ISIS. Then he pounded the Taliban with a record number of bombs in 2019 to pacify them. Since early 2020 they negotiated for peace and since then, no American troops died. 20 months under Trump's deal no American troops dead. That is as close to perfection as one can get when dealing with thugs. 2 weeks under Biden over a dozen dead. Guess which leader soldiers prefer?


http://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/01/27/us-conducted-record-setting-bomb-drops-over-afghanistan-2019.html


Trump never promised to leave Afghanistan completely like you're claiming. The deal was for the Taliban and corrupt Afghan government to power share while we leave 800 troops there to clean up any ISIS cells, keep them locked up, and make sure both govt. groups stayed honest. Trump left 2500 troops there that significantly reduced the problems which worked until Biden's actions.

Now that ISIS was released from prison thanks to Biden telling the Defense department to leave them behind while evacuating, almost 200 people now died hundreds injured and the seeds of future terrorist attacks and war have been planted. We'll have to buy all new equipment for the new war because we left 85 billion worth behind for the terrorists.. Biden and his puppet masters aren't that dumb. They're going to enrich the industrial war complex again after getting people praising them for leaving. Trump's plan was successfully winding down the war and need for weapons.

China will begin control of Central Asia. India won't like that they'll be surrounded by more enemies. Expect them to buy more weapons. Pakistan got 33 billion from America to 'help' us on the war on terror but Trump stopped the money because some of the money would go back to lobbying politicians to increase payments to Pakistan while they hide Bin Laden and other big Taliban leaders. A lot of the bad actors in the world wanted Trump out. The American propaganda media made Trump out to be a bad guy. Most Americans have been brainwashed to think bad is good and good is bad.

[2tallbill]

Is the premise or argument unsound?  If not, my statement does not pose a false dilemma/dichotomy.

What feasible options do you see?

AFAIK the extension was negotiated?  Any info how that came about?

My premise is that Biden was not obligated to Trumps deal. You replied that he had
to either do Trumps deal OR renege. That is a false dilemma. Biden wasn't beholden
to Trumps deal because on Apr 13, 2021 Biden announced that he was going to have
all troops out by September 11₁ That wasn't Trumps deal signed in February.


1. Biden Announces Full U.S. Troop Withdrawal From Afghanistan by Sept. 11
http://www.defense.gov/Explore/News/Article/Article/2573268/biden-announces-full-us-troop-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-by-sept-11/

[2tallbill]

The answer is as many as is possible.

That is the wrong answer, but it's Biden's answer too which is why the Democratic
Party is history starting next election. They will pop up again for another run in
2028 but they've jumped off a cliff till then.

The right answer is ALL OF THEM. It's the only answer and that's why Biden is taking
his party down.

[fathertime]

No you said repeatedly that I was a partisan hack and that my comments on this
subject were partisan. Now you are changing your argument, because I showed
without question that people on both sides have said Biden screwed this up and
is continuing to screw it up.

Let's be clear on one thing, you are indeed partisan, that is without question. 

YOU are the one who constantly states how all these sources are "Liberal" and "Liberal bias" etc etc.  I am of the opinion that they don't necessarily lean overly left, but rather go with the flow of what gets them the most clicks. 

Now as to whether Biden screwed up, people have different opinions, some that normally don't criticize biden might on a particular event such as this one.  Others, you may not expect, will applaud him.   You will consistently, regardless of the situation, deride him (And the evil left) out of partisanship.  It's predictable, but that is why I have stated you are a partisan hack. 

My opinion is that it wouldn't make a difference of who was in office, the situation is a tough one and most outcomes were going to be lackluster at best, with the end result being very good. 

Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

That is the wrong answer, but it's Biden's answer too which is why the Democratic
Party is history starting next election. They will pop up many for another run in
2028 but they jumped off a cliff till then.
 

Your past predictions make me feel that you predict something it will usually be incorrect.  The democratic base will grow more by 2024.  Anything can happen in the next 3 or so years, but for now biden is running the show and it will be his election to win or lose. 

Fathertime!   

Fathertime! 

[Gator]

 
Biden is president, and you are not.  He has access to much more information and top level people than you do.  When you say he made a mistake, you are speaking from ignorance in comparison to Biden.  Had you been in the same seat biden was in (Thankfully you aren't), you might have made the very same decisions he did.  It is very easy to armchair quarterback in a partisan sort of way as several do here.  Regardless, the decision is made, soon we will be out of afghanistan.   To me, it all looks like partisanship  on steroids. 
 

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.  26% of America agrees with you, so you are not alone. 

[fathertime]

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.  26% of America agrees with you, so you are not alone.

That doesn't change the fact that you are speaking from ignorance compared to Biden, and the information he has at his disposal.     

26% agree with what?  I didn't stay Biden made the optimal choices, he made his calls, as all presidents do, and rely on their intelligence.  You probably are denigrating the US intelligence that Biden referenced. 

Fathertime! 

[2tallbill]

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.  26% of America agrees with you, so you are not alone.

Only 24% of Scots believe in the Loch Ness Monster
More Americans believe in Big Foot than agree with FT

I have a source which FT will never produce.

Source:
http://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/almost-one-in-five-britons-believe-loch-ness-monster-for-real

[2tallbill]

make me feel
Fathertime!

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. . . .. . 

[Gator]

Not perfect, Gator?

Let’s see:
1. Trump had the Pakistani release Mullah Baradar from prison, who now is likely to rule Afghanistan.

Is Baradar worse than the average Taliban leader?   I see nothing wrong with the Talliban choosing their own leaders.    Besides, Pakistan does not answer to Trump and Pakistan has been supporting the Taliban forever.  You act as if this is in the category of Obama's Bergdahl prisoner swap.

2. Taliban Doha negotiators are ex-Gitmo prisoners with axes to grind against the Afghan government.

It was a civil war.  All Taliban oppose the former Afghan government.  Again, the Taliban choose their leaders.   

3. Trump negotiated a peace deal with militants the US doesn’t even recognize as a legitimate ruling body, and at the same time shun the actual ruling government of Afghanistan.

For the previous 20 years, year after year, we talked only with the ruling body and supported them with funds, material, training, etc.  How did that go?

4. Trump promise to withdraw all US troops in a given period with a definite deadline.

We were supporting one side in a civil war. Even with America's help, it was apparent after 20 years our side could not win.   Most Americans wanted out.  An essential step in getting out is getting out, and getting out safely and ASAP. 


5. Trump lifts all sanctions against the Talibans, including lifting the arms embargo.

This is a joke, yes?  What embargo?  Pakistan has been supporting the Taliban forever even under an embargo.

6. It agrees to Taliban demands to have the Afghan government release 5,000 prisoners, which included Al Qaeda and ISIS fighters - plus - an additional 1,000 held up in Bagram airfield base.

The dangerous prisoners were not released until we abandoned Bagram.  Do you belive Trump would have abandoned Bagram.  Only an idiot would abandon Bagram.   Our withdrawal would have been less chaotic, less dangerous if we had stayed at Bagram until the last plane left, when the Taliban could walk in and release the prisoners.  Would you have us move all the prisoners to Gitmo?

7. Trump agrees to immediately cease military support of the Afghan force in Afghanistan if Talibans cease all violence against the US force.

The Afghan forces outnumbered the Taliban 6-to-1, and had far superior weapons.  One would think they could defend their positions, yet the Afghan forces caved when it became apparent they were on their own.   We should have seen this coming years ago when organizing and training the Afghan force. Yet the generals in the field lied to the different Presidents saying the mission was achievable and progressing.  Also, I understand we still gave some support, yet indeed stopped fighting alongside them.  Important to note - no American servicemen had been killed after the agreement until Thursday, when the number killed in one day was the most in 10 years.

Trump bears total responsibility of everything that unfolded in Afghanistan today. And since he guaranteed release of the 6,000 prisoners, which included ISIS militants held in Afghan jails, he is solely responsible for the ISIS suicide bomber attack that killed 13 US soldiers and 170 Afghans.

Stunning! If that were the case, you should blame George W Bush because he made the decision to stay in Afghanistan. You can't stop with George W, because Clinton and George H before him were responsible for killing Muslims in Somalia and elsewhere, all of which motivated the 9-11 attack that  compelled us to enter Afghanistan.   The way you are going, the Democrat Party will appreciate your campaign contributions. 

[BC]

My premise is that Biden was not obligated to Trumps deal. You replied that he had
to either do Trumps deal OR renege. That is a false dilemma. Biden wasn't beholden
to Trumps deal because on Apr 13, 2021 Biden announced that he was going to have
all troops out by September 11₁ That wasn't Trumps deal signed in February.


1. Biden Announces Full U.S. Troop Withdrawal From Afghanistan by Sept. 11
http://www.defense.gov/Explore/News/Article/Article/2573268/biden-announces-full-us-troop-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-by-sept-11/

http://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210825-why-is-august-31-the-date-for-the-us-pullout-from-afghanistan

Offers some context as well.  lets both read each others link and digest for a bit.

[BillyB]

Trump promised to get us out of Afghanistan but he also told us a rapid Biden style exit is unpredictable and unacceptable.

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/31313


We will see the reemergence of ISIS, future terrorist attacks and war. We will see China control green energy batteries and they will control our energy. China and others are licking their chops for new opportunity after seeing how Biden abandoned our friends and our citizens to the enemy. Taiwan announce increase defense spending. India is being surrounded by China's influence. The world today is a much more dangerous place than it was two weeks ago. Some people think Biden made a mistake. I still think he and his puppet masters did it on purpose kinda like when they told us to self isolate in our homes because COVID kills and then they stick COVID infected people into the homes of the most vulnerable. No, they aren't stupid. They know exactly what they're doing.

[BillyB]

German troops finished evacuating their citizens and left and just now it was reported the UK's troops left. US troops are all alone. I guess Biden didn't ask for anybody's help. Maybe he did but they don't want to help. Intel reports more terrorist attacks are going to happen. Biden did ask the Taliban to secure the outside of the airport. Can we trust them? Will our State Department and Generals huddle troops together again outside the doors of the airport? One retired general personally knows the Marine 4 star general McKenzie head of CENTCOM responsible for that region and heard his speech after the terrorist attack. The retired general said that wasn't McKenzie speaking. That speech was written by the State Department. 

[fathertime]

Only 24% of Scots believe in the Loch Ness Monster
More Americans believe in Big Foot than agree with FT

I have a source which FT will never produce.

Source:
http://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/almost-one-in-five-britons-believe-loch-ness-monster-for-real

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. . . .. . 

So easily triggered

Fathertime! 

[BC]

German troops finished evacuating their citizens and left and just now it was reported the UK's troops left.

The Germans have ended their evacuation mission.

As of yesterday, there were still 300 German citizens and roughly 10,000 Afghans registered with German authorities wanting to leave.  The Germans are negotiating with the Taliban and neighboring countries to move them out of the country by land routes to their consulates in Pakistan and Uzbekistan and then on to Germany.

http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-08/afghanistan-evakuierung-ausreiseliste-auswaertige-amt-bundeswehr-kabul

[2tallbill]

http://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210825-why-is-august-31-the-date-for-the-us-pullout-from-afghanistan

Offers some context as well.  lets both read each others link and digest for a bit.

Good plan, I will read the link think about it and look at it again with a fresh mind tomorrow.

Udachi!

Bill

[fathertime]

. We will see China control green energy batteries and they will control our energy. China and others are licking their chops for new opportunity after seeing how Biden abandoned our friends and our citizens to the enemy.  [/size]

It is quite possible that China will have more control of resources.  They have more and more money and that money can buy more resources.  US wars have failed to produce the results the US would have liked.  While we (The US) have been focused on bombing people, China has been manufacturing product for the world. It is expected at some point they will reap rewards for their work.    US should rethink strategy and in my opinion start here at home.  I don't that the current US citizenry could stomach the work it would entail.

Fathertime!

[GQBlues]

Is Baradar worse than the average Taliban leader?   I see nothing wrong with the Talliban choosing their own leaders.    Besides, Pakistan does not answer to Trump and Pakistan has been supporting the Taliban forever.  You act as if this is in the category of Obama's Bergdahl prisoner swap.

What a hoot! Funny. Using that type of mentality, we should’ve just sent Osama Bin Laden a Hallmark card sometime after 9/11 telling him to stop it, then sent the ‘90s Taliban that we understood they don’t answer to us, but if they didn’t want to give up OBL, we can never be BFF anymore. LMAO. Then send both Qaddafi and Saddam birthday cards.

LMAO.

It was a civil war.  All Taliban oppose the former Afghan government.  Again, the Taliban choose their leaders.

Ditto. See above. Why didn't we think of that 9/12/2001? 

For the previous 20 years, year after year, we talked only with the ruling body and supported them with funds, material, training, etc.  How did that go?

We were supporting one side in a civil war. Even with America's help, it was apparent after 20 years our side could not win.   Most Americans wanted out.  An essential step in getting out is getting out, and getting out safely and ASAP.

Afghanistan didn’t have ruling body all of the past 20 years after our occupation. No need to exaggerate.

Even after they established one during our occupation, it became an even bigger responsibility for the US to insure its viability if for no other reason than the fact the US, FWIW, had more than a hand in its formation. Trump sold them out in a heartbeat for his selfish quest for notoriety, and thousands of Afghans were sacrificed, being and will be sacrificed, because of his ego. The US should've insisted in the inclusion of the legitimate Afghan government for the future of Afghanistan against a band of militants.

This is a joke, yes?  What embargo?  Pakistan has been supporting the Taliban forever even under an embargo.

Actually no, it isn't. That would even make Trump's action even dumber then right? Why bother lifting a arms embargo if they already are being armed by someone anyway, right?

UNSCR 1076 – ’96 passed this resolution. I didn’t realized Trump alone had the power to lift this all by his lonesome self. If so, another damned good reason to abolished the UN, since we’re o the subject of wasteful efforts and intent.

The dangerous prisoners were not released until we abandoned Bagram

Not true. Al Qaeda, ISIS-K, Taliban commanders were part of the 5,000 released that immediately went to battle. There were additional militants of the same group at Bagram, but the majority were already engage in the field.

Our withdrawal would have been less chaotic, less dangerous if we had stayed at Bagram until the last plane left, when the Taliban could walk in and release the prisoners.  Would you have us move all the prisoners to Gitmo?

Bagram would've been less dangerous? Really? Explain. LMAO. The area would've been much more isolated, easier to choke-off. It would be even harder for SIVs to get to, much less American citizens and NATO allies.

But I will wait for you to explain it yourself because even Gen. Milley & Sec. Austin, much more in touch with the conditions at the time more than you and me combined, believed KIA was an easier, much better area to protect and manage.

So let's wait for your two cents..

Do you belive Trump would have abandoned Bagram. Only an idiot would abandon Bagram.

LMAO! Is THIS a joke? He abandoned the entire freaking country!!! Do catch up!

The Afghan forces outnumbered the Taliban 6-to-1, and had far superior weapons.  One would think they could defend their positions, yet the Afghan forces caved when it became apparent they were on their own.   We should have seen this coming years ago when organizing and training the Afghan force. Yet the generals in the field lied to the different Presidents saying the mission was achievable and progressing.

March 1, 2020 was the beginning of the Taliban advance against the Afghan govt. In hindsight, no one expected them to fall that ‘fast’. [/size]Sure. Glad you noticed that. Biden and his military advisors didn't either. Yet everyone blames him for the collapse. Blame him for something no one else expected to happen, happened.

‘Falling that fast’ is a matter of interpretation anyway. The army began to realize they were sold out. Virtually no communication of the extent of the US's abandonment of the Afghan govt/army. Trump literally offered them up for slaughter. Had they been made a part of the Doha meetings and negotiation, they would’ve been notified of every details of the negotiations, and communications funneled right through their field commanders.

Also, I understand we still gave some support, yet indeed stopped fighting alongside them.  Important to note - no American servicemen had been killed after the agreement until Thursday, when the number killed in one day was the most in 10 years.

NYT issued a report of this very reality. They gave zero field military support. We equipped an under-trained army and without warning, suddenly pulled the rug from underneath them.

Stunning! If that were the case, you should blame George W Bush because he made the decision to stay in Afghanistan. You can't stop with George W, because Clinton and George H before him were responsible for killing Muslims in Somalia and elsewhere, all of which motivated the 9-11 attack that  compelled us to enter Afghanistan.   The way you are going, the Democrat Party will appreciate your campaign contributions.

Exactly my point. I do blame Bush, along with the stooge Obama, and now Trump. You’re free to disagree, that’s OK. IMO, Trump is FULLY responsible for the mess he left behind in Afghanistan. Especially the recent ISIS-K suicide bomber that Trump helped released from prison.

And since you can now plainly 'see' what releasing prisoners can actually do in short order, maybe sometime you'll better understand why your attitude pertaining to dealing with a commander who ordered killing Americans like Mullah Baradar, and negotiating anything with characters like ex-Gitmo prisoners may not be as kosher you seem to believe negotiating peace deals with them are.

Hell, in hindsight, Bush could've just invited OBL at Camp David and gave him rewards and concessions like Trump handed to the Talibans at DOHA, and we could've prevented being in Afghanistan all these years in the first place, eh?

[BC]

The Germans have ended their evacuation mission.

As of yesterday, there were still 300 German citizens and roughly 10,000 Afghans registered with German authorities wanting to leave.  The Germans are negotiating with the Taliban and neighboring countries to move them out of the country by land routes to their consulates in Pakistan and Uzbekistan and then on to Germany.

http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2021-08/afghanistan-evakuierung-ausreiseliste-auswaertige-amt-bundeswehr-kabul

Italy reporting says all 121 Italians that wanted to leave were evacuated along with 4890 Afghan citizens, 2754 of them women and children. 87 flights in 14 days.

http://www.comunicatistampa.org/afghanistan-evacuati-tutti-gli-italiani-partito-lultimo-c-130/

A UK charter flight got 200 dogs and cats out.
http://news.sky.com/story/afghanistan-charter-plane-arrives-in-kabul-to-collect-pen-farthing-and-his-animals-12393262

[tfcrew]

Let's be clear on one thing, you are indeed partisan, that is without question.  YOU are the one who constantly states...   You will consistently, regardless of the situation, deride him (And the evil left) out of partisanship.  It's predictable, but that is why I have stated you are a partisan hack. 

You really overuse that word 'partisan'. Mix it up a little...  http://www.google.com/search?q=partisan+synonym/

[fathertime]

You really overuse that word 'partisan'. Mix it up a little...  http://www.google.com/search?q=partisan+synonym/

Thanks for intense interest in the words in the posts I make. 

Fathertime! 

[BillyB]

Let's see how our government figures these things out based on priority.

2500 troops kept Americans and Afghanistan relatively safe and ISIS and other terrorists locked up. The country went to hell after all the troops pulled out.

Our government sends 5000 troops back to protect 15,000 American citizens fleeing for their lives.

Jan 7th after protestors went home, none arrested for weapons or charged with insurrection, our government sent 26,000 troops to protect 535 politicians for months.


Mother of a murdered soldier called a radio show. She did not have nice things to say about Biden.

http://beckernews.com/you-just-killed-my-son-anguished-mother-unloads-on-feckless-dementia-ridden-piece-of-crap-biden-knab-41176/