RW Demographics

[BC]

A 'mature' man like me can offer a RW financial security and a lot of love.  That is what a lot of RW are looking for, regardless of their age.

Russ,

I think your statement above exemplifies the 'loophole' in your thoughts.  To me jb is simply saying in thought provoking ways that there are huge holes in your logic.  Sure you can find a woman even in the US with big bucks but it really sounds like you think a good woman can be easily found using your 'ace card' above in FSU. 

The days of 'Europe on 10$ a Day' are long over and you admit you are not wealthy.

Looking at your posts I think you are trying to find every way imaginable to justify that this venture is somehow 'doable', the same rationale that probably overtook you with your first failed K1 effort.  In 20 or so posts you have repeated most of the major 'myths' promoted by agencies. 

Considering your reaction to jb's posts, although indeed a bit rough around the edges they at least catch your attention.. sorta like yelling at you to get off the train track..

[jb]

Who's rough around the edges???

I'm smooth beyond belief.....

[KenC]

Who's rough around the edges???

I'm smooth beyond belief.....

OK Smooth, um, er, jb!   

Russ,
From your post we seem to get the idea that you are going to save some poor Russian girl from her poverty stricken future.  I have to admit that the "white knight" armour is very alluring to us guys.  But there is something else to consider; if you do not establish a real relationship with your future wife, your usefulness will be outdated once she gains her own keys to the castle (her green card).  You really have to consider just what you are selling to RW.  Are you attempting to attract them on your own charm and personal qualities?  Or are you leaning too heavily on the allure of America and a nice house?  Yes, it is a package deal: your charming personality+personal qualities+America+better lifestyle.  Just don't oversell America and lifestyle or you will regret it in the long run.

When I went to Russia, I thought of this process as just a way to meet some fine azz women.  No more, no less.  I think if guys went over with that attitude and not with the idea of saving anyone, they would be much better off.  Forget about all the agency hype and just be a guy meeting a woman.  Go ahead and sell yourself but forget about using your country and your economics as trump cards.
KenC

[Russophile]

Jb,
1)   I don’t drink
2)   I don’t hang out in bars
3)   Therefore, It is highly unlikely that I would be attracted to the women you describe in St. Pete, though I don’t doubt for a moment that the situation you describe is true
4) Part of our philosophical disagreement stems from the probability that the type of women I have met in the FSU is different than the type of women you meet.

This brings up another issue that should be repeated over and over again:  You cannot make blanket statements about RW.  They are not clones.  They are as different in attitudes and actions as any number of similar women in the US or Europe.  To pontificate on these forums and say “RW think this” or “RW will decide thus” is foolishness.  Each of us as a man has a certain level of maturity, education, philosophical outlook and financial success.  We are attracted to and attractive to a certain class of women.  The rest of the women don’t interest us so we don’t know or care anything about them.  We only know one type of women, but it is absurd to make blanket statements about the rest of the women being like the women we know.

As for myself, I am not as naïve and pig-headed as I have seemed to be here.  The views I have put forth this week have not necessarily been my own.  There is a cadre of lurkers here (some of my friends among them) who have been overly swayed by the MOB/agency hype and needed to have these issues hashed out again.  I volunteered to be the sacrificial lamb because I have the thickest skin.

Personally, I would never approach the search for a RW as I have done in the past.  I have done it all wrong and I have paid dearly for it.  The advice and counsel the experienced members of the forum have put forth is well worth listening to.

1)   I would never want to marry a woman 20+ years younger.  Let’s face it guys, the allure of such an arrangement just panders to the older man’s fantasy about sex with a younger woman.  Once the novelty of sex wears off, what do you have left?  You probably don’t have the same interests and your friends are a generation apart.  My congratulations to those out there who have done such a thing and made it work.  It just wouldn’t work for me.
2)   I would never want to father a child with a woman 20+ years younger.  In fact, I wouldn’t want to father any child again.  I have had 8 happy, healthy, well-adjusted and productive children, but I am not going to gamble on another one.  I am a medical professional.  I have first hand experience with the sad consequences of old sperm turned loose to wreak havoc.
3)   If I was going to pursue a RW again (and that is a BIG IF.  I have lots of time and resources available to me now to spend time with my daughter and go fly fishing.  Search for a wife would severely impinge on my time and resources), I would not undertake such a project until I could go to FSU for at least 6 months.  I would use that time to continue my study of Russian language and culture and explore some business opportunities.  If I happened to meet someone that I decided (after a long courtship) that I couldn’t live without, then I would get married.  I may even decide to retire there and live out the rest of my days.

So, Jb, if I ever get to St. Pete, I will let you buy me a glass of orange juice! 

And that brings me to my next post, which I hope Jb will contribute to unselfishly.  I recognize him as an expert in this topic.  See the new thread under ‘Experienced’.

[Turboguy]

Russophile,

Much of what you say may be true.  Is it your intent to pray upon the weaker, more desperate folk?  Those not living in a place where jobs and income are available?  In my humble opinion this makes you a predator of sorts.  How does that make you feel?  Still in the "knight in shining armor" mode, I guess.  I don't know how a person justifies playing on economic disaster for personal or emotional gain, but whatever works for you I guess is what you can live with.

However, you will never know if she came to you because she loved you, or for what she thought she could get from you. 

Personally I don't think anyone is preying on anyone.  I think many of us know that Moscow and St Petersburg are getting less attention.  Just because many of us are going to the smaller cities does not mean we are preying on them.  If you wanted to go fishing would you go where there are few fish.  If you wanted to go hunting would you go where there is little game if there was a better forest not far away.

Two economies, no, how bout St Petersburg.  I think other place are between the small cities and Moscow.  Rostov for one seems to have less income than Moscow but more than many cities.

Are we rescuing anyone.  Hopefully they are rescuing us from having to persue AW.  I don't see it that we are rescuing anyone.  I agree with jb on that one.

[nzboy]

Speaking of Belarus and Minsk there is a major problem with available men .What is not reflected in demographics is quality of men .Women are very well dressed and preserved into there 40s By 40 their are very few well dressed and preserved men .I went to a friends place in outer suburbs and by 10 at night  I could count 30 alcies sitting around flats and a few unconcious ones. Many girls in their 20s say they wouldnt want to marry  a guy under 30 because you want to find out how mature they will be .The perfect guy who doesnt hit the vodka ,has a good job and can treat a girl like lady ( instead of just wanting cheap sex ) and dresses nice and can communicate is very hard to find for most girls in 20s living with mama .The university I went to had a ratio of 75% girls 25% boys So I think its below many girls dignity to date someone without education so many girls leave their run too late .My guess is in Belarus that 50% of women are not married or have boyfriend .Maybe 20% are widows or been deserted 10% are quite happy with casual sex lifestyle ( something that is not really seen in west ) I know guys in Minsk who arent handsome who can have a one night stand 2times a week no problem ( I think this is why prostitution is fairly low key )  So my guess is that 20% of women on the street 20+ are looking for a long term relationship with little chance of being married etc .That is the difference between fsu and the west

[jb]

There is a cadre of lurkers here (some of my friends among them) who have been overly swayed by the MOB/agency hype and needed to have these issues hashed out again.  I volunteered to be the sacrificial lamb because I have the thickest skin.

Why do I get the feeling that a stray dog just wandered in and shat upon my carpet?

[groovlstk]

4) Part of our philosophical disagreement stems from the probability that the type of women I have met in the FSU is different than the type of women you meet.

I hope I'm not wasting my time by responding to a troll...

If you married a girl who later turned out to be a GCG, how can you trust your instincts in judging the other women you met while in Russia? Obviously you were convinced your GCG sincerely loved you, etc., and only after living together for a few months did you recognize what she really was. How do you know some or even most of the women you met there didn't use similar facades?

[jb]

I have reported this thread's last post to Admin and Moderators, it smacks of classic troll'ism and IMHO the poster "Russophile" should be banned immediately.  I don't know about the rest of the membership, but I don't like being led down the garden path.

[andrewfi]

Guys, apart from the trollishness going on here, you should not lose sight of the reality that the women in agencies have either rejected their men folk, or the men have rejected them. In neither case are you getting the pick of the litter.

jb's characterisation is not far off the mark.

There is no shortage of men in the FSU. But there is a whole bunch of foreign guys who will marry rejects because (1) that is all they can get, or (2) they know no better because the guys do not understand the culture or social structure and can not fully communicate.

NZboy made a good point without knowing what he did when he commented about seeing guys drunk in public. A point that illustrates the point about lack of understanding perfectly.
Alchoholism is a problem in Russia, but it is not, for example, an order of magnitude worse than in the US. Alcohol consumption is not an order of magnitude higher than in the US, or Europe, but it is higher than most European countries. But the signal difference is that in the US, for example, there are strict laws against public consumption of alcohol. This is not the case in most of the FSU. The inevitable result - a foreigner who knows a little, but not enough, sees something and does not understand the context. Now, this is a fairly large thing, but there are a myriad of smaller details that are different and confuse, things that allow men to confuse themselves and be confused by their 'girlfriends'.
NZboy also made an unwitting point about university - fitting erroneous data to a concocted hypothesis that fits his preferred worldview. In general, the split of further/higher education students is about 50/50, but different types of course attract different genders. But having seen that there is a difference around him and knowing no more, a hypothesis is constructed that serves his purpose. When we do this, we become like sheep about to be shorn.

If a guy does not know the basic of the environment inwhich he finds himself how on earth can he make a sensible judgement of the people he meets or their motivations, probably even less their feelings for him.

[TexasBoar]

I have reported this thread's last post to Admin and Moderators, it smacks of classic troll'ism and IMHO the poster "Russophile" should be banned immediately.  I don't know about the rest of the membership, but I don't like being led down the garden path.

I think it's just plain bad manners to introduce one's self to a forum with a stack of flaming lies . . . 

How can anyone even begin to guess if the new version is any LESS a stack of flaming lies? 

~Boar

[jb]

It is not my intent to inflame the membership with this issue, however, I think Boar has stated the facts quite clearly.  If we now know that Russophile entered into membership here with the stated goal of misleading us, how can we ever trust anything he says in the future?

Do we need this kind of duplicitous behavior from a newbie member?  For me, I say we chuck him now and save ourselves the grief later.

[catzenmouse]

As for myself, I am not as naïve and pig-headed as I have seemed to be here.  The views I have put forth this week have not necessarily been my own.  There is a cadre of lurkers here (some of my friends among them) who have been overly swayed by the MOB/agency hype and needed to have these issues hashed out again.  I volunteered to be the sacrificial lamb because I have the thickest skin.

Let's see if I have this right now:

 You came here (supposedly to "help" some friends/lurkers who are afraid to post on an anonymous internet board) threw out some very instigative posts, provoked some reactions with what appeared to be quite a pompous behavior pattern on your part, played the members for fools as we took you at your word, sat back and had a good chuckle (with your lurker friends I suppose), and now expect to be treated well because you claimed to be trying to make a point to these lurkers. Did I get that right?

 Well golly gee there Russophile, of course we're just gonna jump up and down with a brand new welcome for you! Thank you for lying to us, we know it was for a good reason so it is okay. Any time you feel like lying to us again please do so. I'm sure we'll all understand that you were only doing something good for "Truth, Justice, and the Lurker Way". I'm sure that you saved those lurker/friends of yours from such terrible embarrassment by taking the heat for them. They probably would have been burnt to cinders by now on this horrible board filled with such nasty folks. You have done a great service for lurkerkind!

 Ken

[Vaughn]

  Recently we had a degree of consensus on RWD that DougS's
post about PW'd men insulted the board at large. I take
Andrew's last post the exact same way. He just
insulted my wife, and for that matter, every man's wife
whom he met through an agency. I don't know about the
lot of you, but we socialize with a higher calibre crowd of
AM/RW marrieds than than our Estonian resident portrays...

  ....and somehow I think we're not alone in this.

[Admin]

  Recently we had a degree of consensus on RWD that DougS's
post about PW'd men insulted the board at large. I take
Andrew's last post the exact same way. He just
insulted my wife, and for that matter, every man's wife
whom he met through an agency. I don't know about the
lot of you, but we socialize with a higher calibre crowd of
AM/RW marrieds than than our Estonian resident portrays...

  ....and somehow I think we're not alone in this.

Yeah - it seems we have a few who are especially adept at slinging insults. Oddly, the two whom you mentioned are both among those who are gifted with stellar writing skills, which they sometimes elect to use in ways which, IMO, diminish and/or negate the effect they might have sans insults.

As mentioned in the DS topic, those of us (like you Vaughn) who have been around a turn or three, have the input from Estonia 'indexed' - but it doesn't prevent the occasional barb from getting through.

FWIW

- Dan

[BC]

Russ,

The lurker angle/justification is bs.. just like the rest I stepped in..

What a waste of well intended effort from all the folks that took their time with you and now are left to wipe the stinky stuff off our shoes..

I hope you crawl back under your rock and remain there.

In over 4 years hanging around RW related fora these are the harshest words I have uttered.

[KenC]

Guys, apart from the trollishness going on here, you should not lose sight of the reality that the women in agencies have either rejected their men folk, or the men have rejected them. In neither case are you getting the pick of the litter.

jb's characterisation is not far off the mark.

There is no shortage of men in the FSU. But there is a whole bunch of foreign guys who will marry rejects because (1) that is all they can get, or (2) they know no better because the guys do not understand the culture or social structure and can not fully communicate.

Well, well well, the Pimp Daddy of Estonia has spoken!!

I have told you before, Andrew, to not confuse the whores and hookers you chase with the fine women we have chosen to be our wives and the mothers of our children.  Your whoremongering ways have skewed your view of "our" reality, yet again.
KenC

[Vaughn]

So that's it - his brilliance has whoremongering at its
core. Long ago, he kinda irked me when asserting that we "trafficked"
our wives. Then it was the "dim" theory. I thought to myself,
"Let it go. It's only Andrew."

True story: Last month I was 20 feet up on a ladder, and Andrew crossed
my mind. I recalled his great posts, and wondered why he resorts to peppering a few with such derogatory comments. Tonight's "reject"
theory is a mere continuation of his preferred "either-or" brand
of philosophy - and now I'm convinced he wouldn't know a classy
woman if she walked up and slapped his deserving face.

[Russophile]

To the members of the forum:

If I have inadvertently insulted or offended any of you I apologize.  This was not my intention.

All information about myself I have written on the forum is factual.

All experiences I have had with RW in the FSU described on the forum are truthful and factual.

All opinions I have expressed on the forum are truthful and factual based on my experiences with RW in the FSU.

The content of the questions I have asked on the forum is controversial by its very nature.  I don’t feel that I created any controversy that was not already present.

If there was any deception it was in that the questions I posed to the forum were posed through me by others even though the answers to these questions were resolved in my own mind long ago.

I honestly and openly revealed my position on these matters in my last post.

I sincerely respect the opinions of others on the forum even though their experiences may be different than mine.

You may judge me as you wish and I will abide by your decision.

Russophile

[BillyB]

I wasn't ready to call you a troll Russophile. If you were trolling, you did a bad job. I've seen people say a lot more off the wall stuff when trolling. A lot of guys here have the experience and results to give solid answers to questions, to wake a newbie up from fantasy land, and to help him navigate a minefield of bad women and agencies. Be open to other's opinions and you might find yourself learning something useful just like the rest of us.

Andrew, I wonder if your exceptional writing skills can come up with a rebuttal for your critics. That's why it's not good to paint with a broad brush, you end up insulting a lot of people. I suspect you knew that.

[PeeWee]

So that's it - his brilliance has whoremongering at its
core. Long ago, he kinda irked me when asserting that we "trafficked"
our wives. Then it was the "dim" theory. I thought to myself,
"Let it go. It's only Andrew."

True story: Last month I was 20 feet up on a ladder, and Andrew crossed
my mind. I recalled his great posts, and wondered why he resorts to peppering a few with such derogatory comments. Tonight's "reject"
theory is a mere continuation of his preferred "either-or" brand
of philosophy - and now I'm convinced he wouldn't know a classy
woman if she walked up and slapped his deserving face.

It's because he is a wanna be troll. Sometimes Andrew comes off as troll-like. His last post did make sense if you take the time to sort out this grand generalizations.

Peevee

[PeeWee]

Jb,

You occasionally provide some good information to the forums, but when you start spouting your drivel about RW women over 30 being recycled prostitutes and AM over 50 being predators, then the value of your otherwise factual information is greatly compromised. Stick to what you know well and leave the personal attacks to more immature men on other websites.

A 'mature' man like me can offer a RW financial security and a lot of love.  That is what a lot of RW are looking for, regardless of their age.

Bruce,
great comment.  You have my respect

I went back and read Russ' comments. At what point did we decide that he became a troll? Is it not true that a mature man can offer any woman, be she American, Brit, French, Russian, a measure financial security? Worldwide this seems to be what women want. You guys are a bit smarter than I am at spotting the troll because I tend to go heavy on the benefit of the doubt rule. The jury is still out with me on the troll issue as a result.

Peevee

[PeeWee]

OK Smooth, um, er, jb!   

Russ,
From your post we seem to get the idea that you are going to save some poor Russian girl from her poverty stricken future.  I have to admit that the "white knight" armour is very alluring to us guys.  But there is something else to consider; if you do not establish a real relationship with your future wife, your usefulness will be outdated once she gains her own keys to the castle (her green card).  You really have to consider just what you are selling to RW.  Are you attempting to attract them on your own charm and personal qualities?  Or are you leaning too heavily on the allure of America and a nice house?  Yes, it is a package deal: your charming personality+personal qualities+America+better lifestyle.  Just don't oversell America and lifestyle or you will regret it in the long run.

When I went to Russia, I thought of this process as just a way to meet some fine azz women.  No more, no less.  I think if guys went over with that attitude and not with the idea of saving anyone, they would be much better off.  Forget about all the agency hype and just be a guy meeting a woman.  Go ahead and sell yourself but forget about using your country and your economics as trump cards.
KenC

yes. Ken C said it right.

Many people meet via the Internet. If you met three women, Russ, one via eHarmony.com, one via Elena's Models, and one via Canadianbabes.com. If you set aside every consideration about those three women, such as; where she lives, distance, culture...just as you would if you met the woman who lives across the hall from you in your Condo, would demographics now factor in to it? Would your philosophy remain, "A 'mature' man like me can offer a RW (substitue 'any woman' here) financial security and a lot of love.  That is what a lot of RW (any woman is) are looking for, regardless of their age."?

Peevee


Peevee

[andrewfi]

KenC and others, I am sure that each and every one of you is married to an exception. Do I insult your wives by saying that they might not be the pick of the litter? I think not. You make the choices and you got what you wanted (maybe). But the truth is that, in just the same way as you guys rejected your peers, or were rejected by them, so these women are in the same position - they rejected their peers, or were rejected by them.

The guys here are selecting a Russian woman because they think they can get 'better' there than in their own community. Many explicitly (and many more implicitly) think they they are leveraging experience and wealth to obtain youth and beauty. Now, the question is, if that is NOT what you were/are doing why did/do you do it? If that is what you did/do what does that tell you about those who responded to your offers? What would you think about these women if American? What do you guys think of women who explicitly leverage their relative youth and beauty for economic and social benefit?

If they were truly best of breed then they would not have needed you guys unless they really just wanted to leave the country - and how does THAT make you feel?

I make no bones about it, the generality of the tiny, tiny minority of the women in the FSU who choose to offer themselves to foreign guys are, in significant ways, different to their sisters and no, I do not believe that women, in times of economic hardship, join agencies, selling them to foreign guys, on a lark, at least not the ones with enough wit to be able to walk and talk at the same time. You may of course feel free to disagree, but you will probably have a hard time to objectively substantiate your postion!

[KenC]

KenC and others, I am sure that each and every one of you is married to an exception. Do I insult your wives by saying that they might not be the pick of the litter? I think not. You make the choices and you got what you wanted (maybe). But the truth is that, in just the same way as you guys rejected your peers, or were rejected by them, so these women are in the same position - they rejected their peers, or were rejected by them.

Where do you come off with all this "reject" stuff?  Maybe rejection is so much part of YOUR life that it has clouded your thinking process.  I didn't "reject" AW and they sure as hell never "rejected" me and my wife had all the opportunities in the world right outside her door in Russia.  We neither rejected or were rejected by either of our peer groups.  We choose to expand our dating pool to include a different country and culture.

The guys here are selecting a Russian woman because they think they can get 'better' there than in their own community. Many explicitly (and many more implicitly) think they they are leveraging experience and wealth to obtain youth and beauty. Now, the question is, if that is NOT what you were/are doing why did/do you do it? If that is what you did/do what does that tell you about those who responded to your offers? What would you think about these women if American? What do you guys think of women who explicitly leverage their relative youth and beauty for economic and social benefit?

It is human nature for a man to seek youth and beauty for a mate, just as it is human nature for a woman to seek out the best provider.  There is nothing the least bit wrong with this process.  It is only at the lower end of the gene pool (look around you tonight at the pub) where actual currency is exchanged for sexual favors.  The problem is that it is you that cannot see the difference.

If they were truly best of breed then they would not have needed you guys unless they really just wanted to leave the country - and how does THAT make you feel?

I make no bones about it, the generality of the tiny, tiny minority of the women in the FSU who choose to offer themselves to foreign guys are, in significant ways, different to their sisters and no, I do not believe that women, in times of economic hardship, join agencies, selling them to foreign guys, on a lark, at least not the ones with enough wit to be able to walk and talk at the same time. You may of course feel free to disagree, but you will probably have a hard time to objectively substantiate your postion!

Maybe this is true for the class of people you HAVE to associate yourself with, but there is also a much different point of view for others that do not frequent the gutters of society.  It may be typical for you to trade money for nightly "friendship" in the underbelly of society where you reside, but there is a whole other world out there that it seems you are most unaware.  It is a world of people with open minds to new and different cultures and countries.  A world where two people can make an acquaintance, develop a healthy relationship that turns into a love that will last for a lifetime.  No, I don't expect you, Andrew, to know anything about this world I speak of because it can't be viewed from the gutter.  Keep to what you know, Andrew.  What is the going rate for a BJ in Estonia these days?
KenC