TverRomance

[Jet]

Natasha, you were doing good until I read this particularly troubling timeline:

...we thought about it for like one day.../... A week after we first made this decision our company was registered with the state, we rented an office and opened our doors to the public..../...We just started calling the women we knew and telling them about our new company, we invited them to come and have their pictures and videos taken and fill out profile forms.

In the US (and I understand that Russia is NOT in the US), ethics of legitimate business generally dictate, and sometimes contractually demand, what is commonly referred to as a "no compete" clause or policy. The idea is that if you work for a company and quit, it is customary to NOT solicite business from former customers for at least a period of one year (sometimes much longer) in the same geographic area where your former employer continues to conduct business. In your case I'm pretty sure calling LTP girls and asking them to join you was not illegal, but at the very minimum, it was highly unethical and from my point of view, underhanded (to the point that my prior knowledge of this fact would stop me from doing business with you).

just my $0.02  :noidea:


*NOTE: I have no dog in this hunt. I'm already married and even if destiny sent me to Russia a second time somewhere in the future, it is highly unlikely that I would ever consider using an agency, any agency.

[BillyB]

BB
What is your agenda,
it is common for salespeople to keep records of all their clients.
My opinion...this is between Marc and Natasha.

My agenda is helping people like you and asking the tough questions others aren't asking. If you don't hold agencies to high standards, well.... you're not going to get high standards. The time I put forth as many others here have done on the forum is mostly for an unselfish and worthwhile cause. Helping people take the best possible road to success and avoid the pitfalls. Though you're a happy customer with a couple of agencies there, can you honestly say at this moment that Tver agencies are the best road for a man to take if he wanted to get hooked up with a RW? Sales people keep records of clients but when they aren't working for their employer anymore, they should leave the business records where they belong. It's not just between Marc and Natasha, what they do in business affects all who do business with them. All I know now is Natasha said she didn't take the data base and her reasoning was it wouldn't make sense to steal it since she remembers the contacts by memory.  Marc said she was encouraged to do it by two Americans. If not Natasha, then who stole the database? Was Marc imagining things?

jinx, First of all, most women would be flattered that a man thinks her body is beautiful enough to be seen in a bikini. Second, I'm working psychological stuff here. Third, I've made hundreds of posts, don't read one and come to conclusions that I'm a sexist. Remember, it's Natasha that brought up the issue that it's men against the women. If she can dish it out, she should be able to take it without a man coming to her rescue.

[Admin]

Natasha, you were doing good until I read this particularly troubling timeline:In the US (and I understand that Russia is NOT in the US), ethics of legitimate business generally dictate, and sometimes contractually demand, what is commonly referred to as a "no compete" clause or policy. The idea is that if you work for a company and quit, it is customary to NOT solicite business from former customers for at least a period of one year (sometimes much longer) in the same geographic area where your former employer continues to conduct business. In your case I'm pretty sure calling LTP girls and asking them to join you was not illegal, but at the very minimum, it was highly unethical and from my point of view, underhanded (to the point that my prior knowledge of this fact would stop me from doing business with you).

just my $0.02  :noidea:


*NOTE: I have no dog in this hunt. I'm already married and even if destiny sent me to Russia a second time somewhere in the future, it is highly unlikely that I would ever consider using an agency, any agency.

Jim,

I think you are touching on a VERY valuable object lesson here.

I *hope* jb and others will jump in and correct me if I am mistaken - but here is my take:

* I seriously doubt if Natasha even recognizes the ethics issue you raise.
* I seriously doubt that Natasha - and 99% of the people I do business with in Ukraine - would even have a HINT of the ethics issue you raise.
* A large part of your ethos is that the owner of the agency is the rightful owner of ALL information and contacts developed through the business. It follows that the interpreters may never have (WOULD never have) had the opportunity to make contact with all those women - except for and through the agency which employed them and presumably, paid them a wage.
* The obligation is to the agency owner because they created and cultivated the 'platform' which allowed those interpreters (and other office staff) to gain access to information. Absent the agency, those contacts would have NEVER been available to Natasha, and she would have needed to develop them on her own.

So why is this an object lesson?

Simple. This is a singular incident in which, if I am correct - and I accept that I may not be, so am looking for corroboration from jb and others who have spent loads of time in the FSU as I have - where the differences in situational ethics may be seen VERY clearly.

These sorts of situational ethics, and their differences, are NOT uncommon in relationships with RW - and that is my point behind this rambling post.

OK - it is late and I have probably done a poor job of explaining myself as I am rushing so I can join my wife (I will not say why ).

Feel free to shoot it down.

- Dan

[jinx13]

Billy,

  I'm not judging you, I have read many of your posts and most of the time you give intelligent responses and seem like you genuinely want to help some of the less experienced. I do think you are a little bit chauvinist, but that's not unusual. I thought it was interesting that in another thread, you said your relationship with your girl, has not changed you at all, like it was a sign of weakness if it did. How could it not change your life and your way of thinking? Anyway, that's a different topic.

 I just think your comment about the bikini photo was in bad taste considering the fact that Natasha came here to put some rumors to rest, and after all that was said after her sexist claims against "certain American's" I had to cringe after reading your post and others too, including Dan the moderator. You guys were proving her right, and that's not a cool way to treat a woman here. Yeah they are proud of their bodies, and believe me I'm proud of them too! but there's a time and place for everything.

 Like I said earlier, my Ukrainian girlfriend just joined this forum, and she enjoys reading all this stuff, although she thinks a lot of the guys are crazy here   I wouldn't want anybody asking her for bikini photos, and I don't think Natasha Deeva would appreciate these comments either. She doesn't need me to defend her, but I think it would be great if more women contributed here, and I don't want some of you guys scaring them away, so that's why I spoke up. - David

 

[KenC]

Marriage agencies seem even scarier to me. Who needs em?

Doug
The agency thing worked for me.  It is great you have 3 weeks to travel, most people (including me) are lucky with a week.  Agencies are not for everyone, but they take a lot of the uncertainty out of this process.

BB
What is your agenda,
it is common for salespeople to keep records of all their clients.
My opinion...this is between Marc and Natasha.

Mike,
It is all fine and good that Marc forgives Natasha, but it was not like he was the owner of the stolen data.  Doc Woody was the owner of record, I do believe.  Like I said up thread, I wonder if Doc is so forgiving.
KenC

[TwoBitBandit]

Hello again gentlemen,

Today I will tell you how our company actually got started. [snip]

Natasha, we still haven't seen an answer to these two questions:
1.  Were the letters written to Maxx written by the lady from whom they were represented as coming from?
2.  Does your agency regularly write letters on behalf of women without their knowledge?

In my next post I will speak about why it might take several days and sometimes weeks for a woman to reply to a letter.

Natasha, I certainly don't care about this topic.  I don't believe every pretty girl in Russia is sitting at home knitting sweaters and waiting for letters from middle-aged foreigners.  There's plenty of legitimate reasons why a woman would take time to reply to a letter.

Why do your posts have such a "wag the dog" feel to them?  The purpose of every post you make seems to be just to obfuscate the issues.  This whole thread was started because you were accused of falsifying letters.  Now, we're on page 18 of this topic, and we still haven't gotten a straightforward answer.

[CaptB]

Maxx,

We had a phone conversation about someone in Tver I had a relationship with. You contacted me regarding her.....via jb. I gave you my opinions. She has many good qualities......but she lacked motivation to do what was necessary in this process. Lack of motivation to learn the language of a new country she would be spending the rest of her life in. There were other issues discussed. She is not a bad person. But in reading your recent posts, Maxx, I sense a little of the "old (bitter) Maxx" coming through. No one has ever acussed me of being "wishy washy". It is also not true.....as someone stated.....that having a good marriage these last few years...I tend give "sage advice" to newbies from the coziness of a good relationship. Believe me......I remember the negative things that happened to me with my 8 trips to Russia. I just tend to help those......"who will let themselves be helped". To discuss and be aware......of the negative......but focus on the positive....is what I preach.....and practice. I think you missed the most important part of our discussion about "I" in Tver. Yes.......she lacked the proper motivation to be sucessfull in this process................................................................... with "me". Maybe with the proper guy (ie. someone she was really "into").

No I did not find my wife in Tver. But my experiences there (mostly possitive.....even if my potstirrer buddy jb wants to remember differently) help contribute to my eventual success. LTP was like "family".......and they made you feel like it (original owners). Ron Woody is a nice guy......but he had "new ideas".........but mainly......he was'nt there to tend to his new business. Its hard to be sucessful in a business when the owner is not "hands-on" involved........optimally........day-to-day. Lots of good people in the agency who really cared about the clients. Yes.... there were a few.....not so helpfull.......................as in many businesses.

Natasha is right.....there are many reasons that Russian women may not get back to you.......in "you" idea of "timely fashion". Many (most)......don't have computers, cars etc. Most work.......lots of them more than a 40 hour week. They are not "poping" in everday to answer your letters. A few who live close by do, some every few days, once a week, every two weeks, only when called with a letter etc.
In otherwords......they have lives. Most don't have the luxury of spending hours each  night arguing of BS.......on a board like this. They're busy puting food on the table. Hey......some do not even answer "your" letters.........BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED..........IN YOU! Get over it........move on........find someone..........

.................WHO IS INTO YOU...........AS MUCH AS YOU ARE INTO.......HER

Guess what.......it does'nt matter if you are the greatest guy on earth.......SHE ALSO.......gets to choose. It only may work.......when you both get to choose. If I were an agency owner.......I WOULD NEVER MAKE ANY WOMAN REPLY TO SOMEONE SHE CHOOSES NOT TO RESPOND TO.........OR MEET WITH.........OR DATE......just because some guy has paid a membership. You are not buying love here......but some folks here act like they are entitled........because of dollars. A guy with that attitude........I'd give him a refund (he will never be happy.....or good for your business)........and tell him "good luck".............elsewhere.

You want to argue LTP is'nt what it once was........I really can't disagree.....or agree.
But sitting in the office years ago........I could not help but notice the many dozens of photos of those who matched and/or married. I personally know more than a half-dozen of those faces..........most happily married.

BillyB,

As Natasha said......they got to know many of the women personally.....some became friends. I looked at her website when it was new....and on several ocaisions afterwards. I only saw a few women to start.......with small increases over time. Not heresay......just what I saw firsthand. You call a dozen women you know more than casually......they tell their friends......see ads......come to the promotional table at the park...........no surprises here. But there are always going to be those who want to believe............what they want to believe........when choosing to view.......only "some" of the facts. I won't defend my opions.......I've been to Tver....my knowledge if "firsthand"......not guessing.

Maxx,

If you thought Natasha did you wrong........hopefully she will address it here......as she should. Ignoring a problem (perceived or real) by a client would not be good business.........especially on an open forum both parties have chosen to participate on.

Lots of pissing, moaning and negativity on these boards as of late. If all of the "consiracy theorists" here shifted there empasis to the positive.......they might even..................................find a woman. I see too many here bitching about trial things. Many are just ignorant to the customs.......and life in general......in the FSU.
Read trip reports (very educational if you keep your eyes open)........do your homework......learn about the lives of the people that you are considering to be your wife.

"Cushy, comfortable" married geezer.......espewing wisdom to newbies.....HARDLY. I paid my dues...........long beforeany.........success.

A great agency......rarely discussed.........rarely if ever trashed. The best model I can think of for any agency to emulate................MAKSIMS........in Yoskar-Ola in the Mariel Republic of Russia.......several hundred miles west of Mocow. Rivers, lakes (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan).......beautiful country. Maksim is Russian, a great guy.......and has probably matched and married more folks than any agency I know. He helps support a few dozen orphanages.......he cares about his clients. On of the best organized websites in the business. See their online "matched list" where couples who match......post it publicly.....for all to see. Maxx......at least take a look at the website.

If guys would really listen to the best advice you may ever get (credit to Steve Morvay) either at home, the FSU.....or anywhere...........

FIND A WOMAN WHO IS INTO YOU............AS MUCH AS YOU "FEEL" FOR A PARTICULAR WOMAN.

Anything less.....no matter how you feel about yourself (a great guy)......and there will be no surprise.......when failure is the result. It does not matter how much "you"
feel............but how much you feel (equally).................about each other.

If you have not learned this.......you will always be a "newbie"........wherever you are.


Capt B

[Jack]

Mike15...Hey Jack  What is your point in your last post.  It seems to go on about nothing.    ???



What's that you say Mike, it seems to go on about nothing?       Hummm, maybe that's because that's what you want to see.

All right Mike I'm really swamped today and next day or two with lot's to do with guys all over Ukraine so I will give you my last post for the next few days.

I was not trying to make a single point, but several. If you could not see these point's for yourself let me break them out for you. They were,......


,..... Maxx I agree with you 100% about Natasha....... will voice additional opinion as time allows....will need a little time to respond in hopes of helping dummy Mike and puppy dog Bruno......in my opinion right or wrong Dan is riding your ass a bit (Maxx)......from someone who has butted heads with both, my head butt's with Dan were never distasteful, never un-ethical, never misleading or outright lying or trying to obtain financial gains from false representations.......If Marc is now aligned with Natasha, if Richard is working with Behappilyscamed, I'm desperately searching for agency in Tver.......


Those were the points I was trying to make Mike. I think if you could not see at least two of these points before asking, and hopefully maybe one or two more points after breaking them out for you, then it makes me realiize and understand a little bit more how you could be headed for some tough times ahead during your own pursuit for a Russian bride.

Now even after saying that let me say that their is probably no man in the world who is going to be treated any better than you will be when you make your next trip to Tver. YOU Mike, will not have to be worried about being scammed, at least by Natasha at Tver Romance. You will not be lied to, you will not be quoted one price one day and a different price for the same services the next day. You will not be scammed by ANY woman from the TR agency. You won't have anyone writing phoney letters from your ladies. You should have the trip of your life and the best of treatment. The TR organization is going to do everything they can to make sure your next trip is flawless. You will probably get reduced pricing not offered to others and probably several services will even free. You are in very good shape for this future trip Mike and if I were you, with the situation it is as of today, I'd be booking a flight to Moscow and TR agency quickly. Natasha needs you to be happy and do be able to report of the wonderful way you were treated, the endless beauties lined up to meet you every few hours. I can promise you with 110% accuracy that YOU will be treated like a King. You have to be after all that has come out and emerged from this thread and with you being Tver Romance's number 1, and maybe only supporter.

If you will allow me to offer one piece of advise with regards to your next trip to Tver, please try to use some of the other agencies as well. I don't think you will be treated quite as well at the other agencies as you will be at TR, but my bet is you will have a better chance of finding your wife at another agency.

Gottaaaa gooooo now, pakaaaa and good luck Mike.........

[Bruno]

Natasha, you were doing good until I read this particularly troubling timeline:In the US (and I understand that Russia is NOT in the US), ethics of legitimate business generally dictate, and sometimes contractually demand, what is commonly referred to as a "no compete" clause or policy. The idea is that if you work for a company and quit, it is customary to NOT solicite business from former customers for at least a period of one year (sometimes much longer) in the same geographic area where your former employer continues to conduct business. In your case I'm pretty sure calling LTP girls and asking them to join you was not illegal, but at the very minimum, it was highly unethical and from my point of view, underhanded (to the point that my prior knowledge of this fact would stop me from doing business with you).

Funny, American say that USA is the country of Freedom... I really don't see what is wrong with start own business and contacting customer from your previous business... This is called "concurrency" and it is healthy ... Here in Europe, so method are not prohibit since more business allow lower price or service for the customer...

Your comment have be pertinent if the Tver girls was a product and not a customer... Several time here, we have read agency who say that girls are own propriety... but in my mind, girls are customer and free to use who they wish, change of service when they wish...

I find more unethical owner of business who with special rule don't allow other concurrent business, in the only one goal to sell product/service at a expensive price and make benefice... i think that recently USA have turn a little more at the side of customer, with by example antitrust law...

Second thing, these business are located in Russia, rule are other... Here, a business owner will not be able to fire worker without valid reason, they will have directly syndicat on the door with a process invitation... Same due to a change of owner, the new owner need to respect previous contract... but in Russia, worker are meat for the boss... if you wish to be ethic, why not first begin to give American contract to your russian worker... with the exclusive clausule AND with normal right...

Really, don't joke with the American business ethic... maybe home they have some ethic but filial in poor country who use children for make shoes seem to me very unethical by example... Several American business open factory or filial in other country so they can make what is prohibith in USA.

[Bruno]

I was not trying to make a single point, but several. If you could not see these point's for yourself let me break them out for you. They were,......

I don't see how you explain a point but repetiting it 

...will need a little time to respond in hopes of helping dummy Mike and puppy dog Bruno......

I think that you have simply try to insult Mike and myself because we don't agree with Maxx, yourself, Richard, etc... It is not because you are a regular poster here that i will believe all is writen... i am someone who need proof, evidence or a healthy discussion who allow to forge my own opinion...

Until now, nobody have proof something... Maxx say that he have receive a phony letter... he have receive these information from Richard who have receive it from one of his terp who have receive it from the lady who wrote to Maxx... What a real complex way... Why Maxx have not ask it diret to the lady and have use a concurrent agency for seek the "truth"...

From what i have read, these girl is ready to fly to USA for be married... So, it seem that TR have make his work and build a couple... but it was not with Maxx... Richard have difficult to start is how agency and seem begin using attack for build his own reputation... And you, Jack, you have know problem with TR in the past, you need agency for your numerous tour... So, from what i see, no one in these circus is impartial, everybody seem to have his own agenda.... welcome to the story without end...

Now, explain me in what way, you wish help "puppy dog Bruno"... really i don't see what i need from you...

[SANDRO43]

Funny, American say that USA is the country of Freedom... I really don't see what is wrong with start own business and contacting customer from your previous business... This is called "concurrency" and it is healthy ... Here in Europe, so method are not prohibit since more business allow lower price or service for the customer...

Bruno, I believe UE has some regulations in force about "fair competition", and that these may be part of the area watched upon by some UE Commissioner, possibly the one who deliberates on mergers and other trade issues (cannot remember his exact title). 

[Rvrwind]

Oh well, one more time...

If Marc is now aligned with Natasha, if Richard is working with Behappilyscamed, I'm desperately searching for agency in Tver.......

Jack, Jack, Jack...You really need to read what iswritten & understand it.
We are not working with BH, TR or LTP. The only thing that we have that crosses over between LTP, BH & us is that we all take walkin's from the other agencies. We don't turn away a BH client because he came here through them or didn't buy a full trip from us & vice versa. We don't even turn away TR's clients when they walkin' even though they don't ffer the same to our clients. This is the only cooperation we participate in with the other two agencies. Whatever else goes on at BH or TR is not my problem, as I get crucified everytime I say something & it doesn't change a damn thing as we are noticing right here in this thread.
TR does not allow walkin's & Natasha explained her reaons for that upthread, which is their choice.
My own opinion on the matter is it does a dis-service to the clients both male & female by not allowing it, not to mention the added income for the company & work for our employees. Why punish the clients (& both TR & BH have lots of real & beautiful ladies) for the lack of integrity of the owners.
When you are on the ground in Tver you will have access to pictures & profies of more women than you could ever possibly date. To me that is the bottom line, thats what everybody keeps asking for & by our shaing clients on the ground with BH & LTP the three of us can offer that.
For me serving the client in the best possible manner, working with them & giving them the best agency experience they can ever hope for is what I try to achieve. We offer more alternative resources & excursions than any other company in Tver, mostly to keep the client busy & enjoying his visit whether he meets a lady or not. For me, the client comes first, & if I was realy into making money, I'd be spammin' & scammn' too, but money isn't everything, at least not to me.

Richard have difficult to start is how agency and seem begin using attack for build his own reputation...

Bruno, I ever attacked anyone, I stated facts that I am aware of & if that isn't enough, so be it. I don't need to boost my reputation, it speaks for itself, as many who have met me will attest. And who said I have difficulty starting my own agency? Not me surely. In fact I can tell you that our agency is doing just fine because we do much more than introduce foriegn men to Russian Women, much more & that is what keeps our doors open.

Until now, nobody have proof something... Maxx say that he have receive a phony letter... he have receive these information from Richard who have receive it from one of his terp who have receive it from the lady who wrote to Maxx... What a real complex way... Why Maxx have not ask it diret to the lady and have use a concurrent agency for seek the "truth"...

Considering the lady in question does not know English, it would be difficult for Maxx to hear it direct from her without an interpreter. As for her now getting ready to go to the US, well I might have to check that out. I know she started her own buisness & pulled out of the agency scene to run it as her time was limited, but going to the US after just getting her buisness going, lets just say I'm skeptical, but anything is possibe, afterall I havn't talked with her for about a year & a lot can change & happenin a year.
Maybe if 5 or 10 or 20 guys stepped up to say they got phoney letters, would that be enough proof for you. It happened, you can believe it or not, your choice & your entitled to your opinion. But don't make statements about me & my buisness that you know nothing about. I could close the whole International Introductin side of things & let all these guys go to the other agencies & it wouldn't affect my buisness one iota. So to even entertain the idea that I am having difficulties is ludicous at best.

[Bruno]

But don't make statements about me & my buisness that you know nothing about. I could close the whole International Introductin side of things & let all these guys go to the other agencies & it wouldn't affect my buisness one iota. So to even entertain the idea that I am having difficulties is ludicous at best.

Richard, it was speaking about your marriage agency... what is related to these topic... that you earn money by other activity, is not related to the actual case... almost one year ago, you have start your marriage agency, make a lot of announcement, receive help from some here... and now, where are you... a little site with just a few girls... sure, i hope that you other business are better working, you need butter on your bread... but be realistic, it seem that the marriage business is not working so good... the reason can be very simple, 4 agency in one little city is a lot, specialy when they fight each other...

You are the white knight but your sword is too short for kill the dragon... in some way, it remeber the story of Don quichote... Maybe you remember the reason why i have stop myself... not because my marriage agency was not working but because the hate from other agency seeing my agency growing... you are little now but if by chance you grow more, the other will bite more...

About the girl having start a business and now ready to marry a American man, it is possible... same here in Belgium, very few new business resist the cap of the first year... when it is time for pay the bill and the more painful tax report, etc... Start a business is easy, keep it running and grow is difficult...

On the other side, miss TR make interesting post who reply always to question non related to the topic itself... not really direct speak about these potential fake letter... maybe wewill have like Dan hope, a post who explain the choose of lingerie or swinsuit by RW with some illustration but i feel that the basic question will never have a reply...

And Maxx who choose to dissappear after having put the fire !!!

Jack who see in these topic the opportunity to take reveange of TR because a old story...

YES, it is the RWD SOAP OPERA...

[Jet]

I really don't see what is wrong with start own business and contacting customer from your previous business...

If you spent several (or many) years, and tons of money cultivating a successful business out of nothing, and one of your employees walks out one day, and a week later takes part or all of your customers, I think you would immediately see what's wrong with it. It is really no different than if that employee decided to take a company car you bought, or the office furniture you provided as they walked out the door.

This is called "concurrency" and it is healthy ... Here in Europe, so method are not prohibit since more business allow lower price or service for the customer...

This practice is not prohibited here either, unless specified in an employment contract. It is not matter of legality, but one of ethics. Even when specified in a contract, it is rarely "forever", but usually for a short period of time. When I started my last business in 1991, I waited 2 years before accepting any work from my prior company's main customer. I was not bound to do this by a contract, but in the end it provided a far greater benefit, because the customer had absolutely no question about my integrity or ethics.

[mike15]

I just have a couple of questions…

Why is Natasha and TverRomance on trial in this forum?

The letter issue, I agree is a serious issue, and never proven to be true.  And correct me if I am wrong, our legal system is built on evidence, the jury system, and innocent until proven guilty…. get the point?

The issue of a non-compete is now front and center, Jet I admire you that you waited 2 years and it sounds like you are successful,,,good for you.  I am sure I can learn something from you in the business world.  In this situation, does a non-compete exist, is it customary, and are you positive that something un-ethical happened?  Again, correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the entire US economy built on competition?

Just for the record, I have been to Tver three times.  Met several women from both Time Partners and TverRomance.  All the women were real (and very pretty, and yes even the old profiles are real).  Natash/Lyuba & Marc/Nadya have been wonderful to me.  I met the love of my live using both companies.  And yes, I am advocate of Tver and the marriage agencies in the city.  Hopefully, by Christmas the love of my live will be living here in the US with my kids and I.

When I first started writing on this board, a poster attacked LifeTime Partners and three of the clients in the service (one was my girlfriend).  This post got nasty, as BillyB made reference to in an early post.  At that time, a competitor of LTP defends this poster, like he is doing here.  I took that personally as my girl’s picture was part of the post.

I ask you guys that have never been to Tver or used Tver Romance what is your agenda and why are you attacking the agencies that support this business.  Several of the attacking posters have insulted  Natasha and some of the  other posters that are trying to defend her.

Just one more point, I was called a dummy by someone in an earlier post.  Well if defending someone that I admire makes me a dummy…well call me “MIKE KING OF THE DUMMYS”

[BC]

Jet,

I could agree with you up to a point..

One thing to remember is that the women *probably* do not bind themselves or give exclusivity to a specific agency.  Remember that the agency is simply a middleman (or woman).  If a woman gave exclusive rights to one agency and she popped up in another agency's database I would agree with you fully.

I can imagine that the women know each other by sight having interacted with each other before at one office or the other so it's not beyond reason that a large number of women could agree to work with a new agency in a short amount of time.. a call to one woman will probably produce two more numbers..  I wouldn't underestimate the networking involved between women 

It's slightly, but also significantly different than the ethics example you provided.

The databases that are being discussed here are not really proprietary regarding the info contained.  Only the work that is invested to collate all the information is truly proprietary.

I guess one could ask who is truly at fault... the carrot or the horse.. 

[jb]

I *hope* jb and others will jump in and correct me if I am mistaken - but here is my take:

* I seriously doubt if Natasha even recognizes the ethics issue you raise.
* I seriously doubt that Natasha - and 99% of the people I do business with in Ukraine - would even have a HINT of the ethics issue you raise.
* A large part of your ethos is that the owner of the agency is the rightful owner of ALL information and contacts developed through the business. It follows that the interpreters may never have (WOULD never have) had the opportunity to make contact with all those women - except for and through the agency which employed them and presumably, paid them a wage.
* The obligation is to the agency owner because they created and cultivated the 'platform' which allowed those interpreters (and other office staff) to gain access to information. Absent the agency, those contacts would have NEVER been available to Natasha, and she would have needed to develop them on her own.

Dan,

I made this point up-thread, although apparently not strong enough.  To use the words "ethics" and "Russian business" in the same sentence would create an Oxymoron.   I just recently read an essay on how the new *Russian Rich* got so rich in such a short period of time.  Suffice to say, the same behaivor in the USA would land these men a long term jail sentence.  Indeed, the oil company my wife worked for was put out of business by these same Russian business ethics.

As I said up-thread, repeating myself here, if these guys knew anything at all about Russians, they'd not be using a Russian owned MOB agency.

[Admin]

Dan,

I made this point up-thread, although apparently not strong enough.  To use the words "ethics" and "Russian business" in the same sentence would create an Oxymoron.   I just recently read an essay on how the new *Russian Rich* got so rich in such a short period of time.  Suffice to say, the same behaivor in the USA would land these men a long term jail sentence.  Indeed, the oil company my wife worked for was put out of business by these same Russian business ethics.

As I said up-thread, repeating myself here, if these guys knew anything at all about Russians, they'd not be using a Russian owned MOB agency.

jb,

I recall your comment - and agree that there is a huge chasm in terms of ethical views. Actually, I am not sure the point can be made strongly enough. Absent the experience of seeing it first-hand, it would be difficult, or impossible, for someone to gain an appreciation of how significant this issue is.

OTOH, there are instances when I *knew* full-well that I was swimming with sharks, but since it was the only route to get to my destination, I swam ahead. I guess the situation is not too different for the guys working with these agencies. The agencies have the girls they want to meet - and the agency represents the FASTEST (albeit not the safest) path to achieving the goal of meeting. Their 'protection', such as it is, is to understand the environment and take appropriate precautions.

FWIW

- Dan

[Bruno]

The agency represents the FASTEST (albeit not the safest) path to achieving the goal of meeting. Their 'protection', such as it is, is to understand the environment and take appropriate precautions.

Wowww... very good write... maybe something for the stone tablet...

[jb]

Dan; yes.

I think anyone who has either worked ex-pat in Russia, or did business with Russians will agree.  Russians tend to think in terms of "cleverness" in business, rather than "honesty".  This trait will often lead to the use of subterfuge and misrepresentation in order to achieve the desired goals.  Under no circumstances should an American man ever think he's getting a good or fair deal from a Russian business, instead he should think in terms of how much money he is willing to lose to get the desired results.

I could elaborate for pages on this theme, however I'd be putting guys to sleep.  The thing which keeps this all afloat is the myth perpetuated by the MOB industry of a land of plentiful, beautiful young woman, with traditional values, hungry for an older stable man, this concept is responsible for so many fantasies and is what keeps men like T/G coming back year after year in search of his own Holy Grail.

There is a grain of truth to some of this, Russian women are marriage minded.  When I first went to Russia I was often in the company of Russian married couples.  About the third question put to me by the wives was; "Are you married?"  Answer; "No".  Next question; "Would you like to meet a nice woman?" (whose virtues would then be extolled).  Russian women are cultured to believe in the value of a good husband and it is mostly their dream to have the "cozy home and strong family".  This works to the AMs advantage to some degree.   However, the notion of wives on display, available like puppies in a pet store, is largely myth.   These women still want to be romanced and courted and can be quite headstrong about it.  This is one of the reasons for the "gifts" idea during courtship.  A Russian women cannot be bought, but she expect "gifts" from their b/f.   Failure to pony up with a gift now and then will get you labled as "greedy".  And that's the kiss of death. 

I don't want to sidetrack this thread onto a *Understanding RWs 101* course, but it is an important part of the process.  Russian owned MOB agencies pray upon weak and lonely men, they will shamelessly promote the unachievable in their effort to keep him coming back spending more and more money.  We have several examples of their success rate right here on the RWD.

[Bruce]

Dan, good call opening the thread again now that ND gave us something to chew on. 

Jet, good reminder on the lack of ethics in the FSU.  I sure would not want to engage in any business there unless I was truly connected, which will never happen so better to stick here with things I know.  Its too bad, because there are so many agricultural ideas I as well as many of you could implement if you wanted.  For instance, it could be so easy to raise quality beef which is sorely need in Russia.  The problem of course is meat distribution etc. to get a return on an investment if one would get some land and start a herd etc.

"Under no circumstances should an American man ever think he's getting a good or fair deal from a Russian business, instead he should think in terms of how much money he is willing to lose to get the desired results." 

JB, that line of yours is so true and so perfectly stated it should be on its own tablet of stone.


Mike 15 - A number of board members have first hand experience that TR engaged in phony letter writing, stated so and invited ND to explain what happened.  ND still has not answered what happened.  It could have been solved plain and simple with a Yes, but or No and here is what happened in that situation / happens in this case and why etc., but it was not. The more ND obfuscates the issue the less credibility she achieves. 

[SANDRO43]

I hate to spoil the idyllic view of Western vs. Russian business ethics, but I can recall several recent cases of highly "questionable" conducts, both in the USA and Europe, by top business managers (and political appointees as well).

Perhaps the difference is that if such cases are exposed here in the West, they MAY have to pay for their misconducts, whereas this seldom applies in the FSU, and the "debonair" attitude is more prevalent and society-pervasive.

But we are not all white lilies in this game.

[KenC]

Wow, we are going onto the 20th page still debating some very simple issues.  There are really only two simple questions that still have not been answered:
Did Natasha Deeva steal Lifetime Partners data base?

Did Tver Romance falsify a letter to Maxx?

These are questions that seem to scream for a "yes" or "no" answer and yet we still don't hear them.  The answer to the letter question could have been handled with a "no, we didn't" or "Yes, we did because of (circumstances)", and yet it has been dodged for 19 pages.  I think that that alone is an answer of sorts.

I also think that many here assume that the stolen data base question has been answered, but it really has not.  From Marc Dayton's post one can come to understand that he still has his doubts if she did take the data base:

By Marc,

Well we can at least get this story strait as far as Tver Romance stealing LTP data base. At first yes I was pissed off, but for you that have been around when her web-site went up there was nothing that made me mad at all.

The story is a bit deeper then all of you know! At that time there were two Americans who work for us in the LTP office in Tver who hated Doc Woody these two men talked Natasha into opening Tver Romance telling her many things if she took the data base it was these two men that pushed her to do it, and I will say one more time when her site was put up I saw nothing that pissed me off.

  There is at least an innuendo made here that she may have taken it.  And this is from her ally, Marc.  Does Natasha deny taking it in her response?  No, she doesn't.  She continues to dance around the subject with comments like:

Why, if we had a database of 2000+ women in our hands would we not use it? Start naming the reasons!

OK, so Marc uses her slow start on her website to temper his anger and Natasha uses it as evidence that she didn't take the data base.  Well folks, saying "if I took it would I have......."?  is a lot different than saying "No, I never took it".  But to answer Natasha's question, a slow start on a website is typical.  Even if you had the data, it would take a lot of time and energy to contact the girls, reformat the information and take new photographs.  It makes sense to me to put up at least a little information to start and then add the bulk of the data ummm, err, "collected."

Again, I will say that it may be easy for Marc Dayton to forgive and forget as he wasn't the owner of LTP at the time.  Doc Woody paid dearly to buy that data base when he purchased LTP.  I wonder if he is as forgiving?  Anyone that has Doc Woody's contact information , please PM me.
KenC

[jb]

But we are not all white lilies in this game.

I never said we were lily-white, in fact we have prisons full of white collar criminals here.  The point I was trying, however badly, to make is that it is the norm there to engage in the "Lie, Cheat, and Steal" mode, as a business model, rather not so often the case here simply because there is a system in place to protect consumers from outright fraud.

There is a huge difference in the two philosophies.

[Marc Dayton]

Richard I love the way you put a spin on things.

For the Record

I am not going to help you by sending you a man to meet your girls. I don't belive in you!!! you have nothing to offer LTP or are men,and no one in my office wants to deal with you.You are 100% band from the LTP office I will not except any man that you send us.

Richard you want the world to work for you and all you do is blast us  wake up you make the bed you sleep in.

If you want to call it bad biz. so be it

Bt the way I here that there are something new at your service is it true that you lost your new partner?

----------------------------------------
By Richard

My own opinion on the matter is it does a dis-service to the clients both male & female by not allowing it, not to mention the added income for the company & work for our employees. Why punish the clients (& both TR & BH have lots of real & beautiful ladies) for the lack of integrity of the owners