Trip Report: Kherson, Ukraine 8/31 - 9/6/2006

[av8or1]

Hi y'all,

Albeit a bit late, here is a TR for my most recent excursion to the FSU, which was to Kherson, Ukraine.  I used Kevin Haynes' Kherson Girls agency as my sole method of communication and meetings with women.  Let me just say up front that I cannot recommend Kevin and his agency enough.  I have used them twice now (the last being a year ago in September of 2005) and both times they did an absolutely awesome job for me.  Everything from their airport transfers to apartments to meetings are conducted in a reliable, professional manner.  Top marks, no question about it.

Ok, so here goes...for this trip I did the whole WOVO thing.  Having done that 4 times now I can - without hesitation - tell you NOT to do it.  I am a big "o-fer" with that type of approach, that is 0-4 with the women I met.  The problem for me is that I have always been a one-woman kind of man.  To date many women at once just isn't my nature.  So...I had communication with one lady for several months who seemed like the person I wanted to meet.  We'll call her O.  Our communication was slow in coming because she was often out of town for work.  But she seemed interested enough when she did write, so I stuck with it.  I didn't write anyone else.

8/31 & 9/1 - Flight on LOT Polish out of ORD.  All I can say about them is plan to be late and to lose your luggage.  Fortunately this trip neither happened either on the outbound or return trips and I was stunned.  Last year both happened and there have been so many complaints about LOT it isn't funny.  I arrive in Odessa and am greeted by Yuri, one of Kevin's drivers.  This was/is the same guy who picked me up the year before, so that should tell you something.  It's a 3.5 hour or so drive from Odessa to Kherson, so I just slept for most of it.  They take you to the office if you arrive during normal business hours, which happened for me.  I saw Kevin again and all the staff, said hi to everyone and saw little Alec running around (Kevin and Lana's son) the office.  What a treat that was!   I filled out the paperwork for the apartment and off we went so that I could settle in.  I paid Kevin for everything ahead of time via paypal.  I used the a-la carte version of things, though he does offer package deals too.  I arrive in the flat and A (an interpreter) shows me how to use the keys to get in the doors and inspects the flat with me as I lug in my 29-inch trunk of a suitcase.  Everything is great, Kevin's apartments have all you need, including a iron.  I was meeting O that night, so I got ready and walked to the agency.  O is there waiting on me, I give her the souvenier from TEXAS and the roses.  We head out for dinner as she's hungry.  All is going well and I am interested, she seems to be also.  We concluded dinner and since it was my first night, I sent her and the interpreter home in a taxi and walked back to the apartment.  I had wanted to ride with them, but O said no.  Both the interpreter and I were confused about that, but whatever (red flag).  So I get home, shower and get some sleep, or try to (time difference).

9/2 - I meet with O the about 1 or 2, don't remember now.  We walk around for a bit and then go for coffee.  Midway through it she tells me that she doesn't feel well (I know enough Russian to be dangerous) so I walk her to find a taxi and she's off.  I ask if everything is ok and if she wants to meet that night or the next day.  She says yes with her back turned as she's getting into the taxi, which wasn't a good sign and I knew it.  I didn't hear from her that night, so I just hung out with the other guys who were in town...

Clearly she's not interested or whatever (listen all you newbies!), so by mid-day I am in Kevin's office talking with A (interpreter) about who I should meet on my backup list.  HAVE A BACKUP PLAN!!!  O was/is a flake as I have discovered and am told by ... those who will remain nameless.  Understand that I don't say "flake" because she wasn't interested in me but rather because she said that she WAS interested and that she wanted to meet again but then didn't show up and didn't call.  If a woman isn't into me, that's fine, not everyone is for everyone, ya know?  But don't tell me that you like me and then don't show up, that's ... well bad form.  I wouldn't do that to you, so don't do it to me.  Anyway...in the end I was right to pull the trigger and move on quickly, which is the point of my lesson to the youngsters at this venture.  If these women are interested in you, they will show it.  If they're not, you'll get something less than overt interest and that is the clearest sign that she isn't into you.  You need to pull your head out of your tail, accept it and move on.  I have learned that one the hard way!

So A is kind enough to set up several dates for me over the next few days.

Fast forward a bit.  I'll abandon the exact date format for the remainder of this TR.

Unfortunately most of the women I meet are out of my age range, <= 24 is just a bit too young for my tastes.  I want a woman who's ready for marriage and I think that most people in that age range just aren't there yet, though I'll admit that there are exceptions.  However I have a nice time meeting all of the different women, despite it being against my nature to do so.  After meeting these women I decide to see one woman we'll call Y, mostly because she's athletic and so am I.  At 22, she's probably too young and I know it, but it doesn't seem like a bad way to spend my last two or three days in Kherson.  We go bowling and then drove to Nikolaev the next day to go swimming at what was described as a "water park" but which was really only an olympic style swimming pool and a water slide.  I hadn't been taking Y seriously but she kept making serious comments towards me during the time I spent with her, so I allowed myself to be open to the situation.  I tried holding her hand once or twice, got the cold shoulder.  That's a sign y'all....

Anyway, so the bowling night: She changed our plans when she received a phone call on her cell.  We were supposed to go for a walk and then go for tea to chat (with the interpreter).  Well she cut bait and darted off to go see her friends right after bowling.  It was/is a clear sign she wasn't into it, but I only had one more full day in Kherson so I went to the swimming thing anyway.

Swimming day: It was to be an all day affair, and Yuri drove the three of us to Nikolaev.  All Y could talk about was how much she liked that city more than Kherson.  Boy it was obvious what was happening, but again, I wasn't taking it too seriously anyway.  So we arrive and go swimming.  We started off in the competition swimming lanes and the interpreter tells me that Y thinks she can outswim me, that I am too old to keep up.  Ok, I'll admit I let that one get under my skin a little bit, so I passed her a$$ easily, leaving her half a pool behind.  Couldn't resist it, though maybe I should have, dunno.  Y giggles around with the interpreter and I'm a lump on a log.  It gets old, so I go get the camera.  I like Y very much, she's a great gal and a great interpreter so I decide to take some photos for her.  Did that, went back in, got dressed and waited on the women to emerge later.  We went for dinner on the walking street in Nikolaev.  Great walking street, many shops, restaurants and things to do.  Over dinner Y begins to ask me how serious I am about her, whether or not I am coming back to see her, etc.  This hits me as a complete surprise.  Can't tell where this woman is coming from at all.  I ask how serious she is, get a mixed answer, whatever.  Dinner was good, we leave and go back to Kherson.  We arrive at her building, I get out to say good bye (forever) and she grabs me by the hand, tells me how much she likes me and that she wants to hear from me soon.  Peck on the cheek.  Drop the interpreter off and go back to the apartment to pack.

9/6 - Yuri picks me up right on time at 9 am.  We drive to Odessa, I get on the flight and go home.  Yet another trip where I leave being more confused than when I came.  Oh well, it happens, it's life.  For funzies, I decide to see what this thing was about with Y, what she meant by all that stuff she said as I dropped her off at her building.  It was a dead end.  Kevin helped too by asking the interpreters about it for me, he's a great guy.  I was told she was going to write a letter, but that letter never came.  I wasn't surprised or disappointed, heck I wasn't even interested anymore.  Let that be a lesson to you newbies too...TRUST your instinct.  Anything less than a definite YES YES is a no.  Again, she really was too young for me anyway, so no worries.

Ok, that's it in a long nutshell.  Kherson Girls did a great job for me for the second time, eventhough I didn't meet anyone to begin a future with.  Not their fault, it happens sometimes and I didn't choose well with respect to O.

I hear that there are other good agencies in Kherson too, Kherson Fiancees is one that a friend of mine is using as we speak.  Kevin's place is top notch, so give 'em a try if you are there.

Hope it helps, best to all!

Jerry

[Turboguy]

Nice TR Jerry,   Hope the next trip goes better. 

The FSU is the only place I know where the gals kiss men on the cheek and each other on the lips.   Sucks!

I think the gals there would get a much better response if the were a little more demonstrative to the guys they like.   I can recall a week ago being in Zap and on my second date with a gal who seemed to like me a lot.  We were there with my arm around her and holding her close and thinking if she just reached over and put her arm around me too, she would go up about two notches in my decision about who to make a follow up visit to see.

[groovlstk]

8/31 & 9/1 - Flight on LOT Polish out of ORD.  All I can say about them is plan to be late and to lose your luggage.  Fortunately this trip neither happened either on the outbound or return trips and I was stunned.  Last year both happened and there have been so many complaints about LOT it isn't funny. 

I've flown LOT before because they're part of Star Alliance, the FF club that includes Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and United. Unfortunately LOT isn't in the same class as its brethren.

I didn't experience any major problems outside of delays, but during one short leg (Warsaw to Moscow) the meal was a sandwich consisting of two slices of bread drenched in mayo with a single leaf of lettuce in between. I ragged on my Polish friends here in the US for months after that one.

I think the gals there would get a much better response if the were a little more demonstrative to the guys they like.

I don't know, Turbo, but in my experience if an FSU girl really likes you she'll shower you with affection. She can talk and laugh with you until she's blue in the face, and you can mistake this rapport for "chemistry" or interest, but unless she's affectionate with you then you're simply a buddy to her. I think the affection thing is the truest litmus test we men have in determining if it's time to dig in or to jump ship.

[Bruce]

Jerry, good lesson for you.  Sounds like you are ready to meet the right girl.  Good advice above.  Remember, if she is into you, you will know it.  Any murky signs what so ever means...........next!

[PeeWee]

Nice TR Jerry,   Hope the next trip goes better. 

The FSU is the only place I know where the gals kiss men on the cheek and each other on the lips.   Sucks!

I think the gals there would get a much better response if the were a little more demonstrative to the guys they like.   I can recall a week ago being in Zap and on my second date with a gal who seemed to like me a lot.  We were there with my arm around her and holding her close and thinking if she just reached over and put her arm around me too, she would go up about two notches in my decision about who to make a follow up visit to see.

It seems to me that the agencys would be ahead of this by giving both the guy and the gal a quick training program on dating and social interaction as they relate to the two cultures. Many be then the two varied body languages could be better understood. She should be aware of how western men receive her signals and he likewise.

Peevee

[Albert]

"Ok, so here goes...for this trip I did the whole WOVO thing.  Having done that 4 times now I can - without hesitation - tell you NOT to do it."

Nice that you are trying to clue newbies in to what not to do . . . the WOVO thingy.

But, I'll bet you also read dozens of times before NOT to do it.  Yet you and others keep doing it!!!!

[Albert]

"Unfortunately most of the women I meet are out of my age range, <= 24 is just a bit too young for my tastes."

So why did you meet with these women?  Isn't this just about as ill advised as your WOVO type of approach?

Or are you suggesting that Kevin just did not have any age appropriate ladies for you?  I don't understand why agencies are not over run by older gals searching for a husband.

[Albert]

The FSU is the only place I know where the gals kiss men on the cheek and each other on the lips.   Sucks!

I think the gals there would get a much better response if the were a little more demonstrative to the guys they like.   I can recall a week ago being in Zap and on my second date with a gal who seemed to like me a lot.  We were there with my arm around her and holding her close and thinking if she just reached over and put her arm around me too, she would go up about two notches in my decision about who to make a follow up visit to see.

Turbo, in my experiences, most of the gals show affection quite early.

Maybe my experiences are a bit different in that I have never dated gals through agencies or socials.  Perhaps in that setting, the gals are somewhat thinking that their actions re kissing and hugging will get reported by you back to the agencies or social organizer.  They are worried they might get labelled as 'easy' by the agencies which then might be reported on to future potential guys.

Don't know if I am right here, just hypothesizing.

[Albert]

It seems to me that the agencys would be ahead of this by giving both the guy and the gal a quick training program on dating and social interaction as they relate to the two cultures. Many be then the two varied body languages could be better understood. She should be aware of how western men receive her signals and he likewise.

Peevee

I agree totally with this suggestion.

Further, why can't the agencies do more to enlighten guys re what is smart and not smart.  For instance why do they let guys come on WOVO trips?  True they are dealing with supposed adults . . . but then airlines won't let you do landings and takeoffs without wearing your seatbelt, regardless of how adult you are.  Some things are just so much for your own good you should be forced to do them.

[jinx13]

Hey Jerry,

 Great T/R, but I'm curious as to why it took you 4 times to realize that going that far to meet one girl is a bit risky ???  I do understand what you mean about being a one woman type guy, I am the same way, but in this type of venture you have to expand your opportunities, and better your chances of finding "the right one"

 You don't think at 24 a Russian girl is ready to marry? Man, they start thinking of marriage at 18! Of course that's too young, but 24 is definitely ready, most FSU girls start to feel like old maids at that age. I think the main problem you're going to have with girls in your age range, guessing early 30's? is that they probably already have children, and having talked to you about that before, i know you want your own kids, not somebody Else's. I could say we have the same problems with dating in the U.S., all the available women without children are usually 18-25, I don't mind the younger ones    but for you, it could be difficult to find someone.

 I disagree with some of you guys about women showing affection. What, dump them if they're not all over you within the first few meetings? It takes time to get to know someone, even after many letters a real life meeting can make you and the girl very nervous. When I did the WOVO thing my first trip, the girl was not affectionate at all for 3 days, but then toward the end of the week she softened up, and held my arm, and sat close to me. It takes time with some people, don't give up on a girl just because she might be shy or nervous about you.
 
 Jerry, I hope you find a good girl this next trip, I know it's difficult to be a "player"  type guy, I don't like it either, but to travel so far, and invest so much time and money, you want to make sure you meet a lot of women, and you might be surprised that your 'back up' girl could end up being the love of your life, you just never know.
 
                                      Good Luck Buddy, and go Cowboy's!          - David

[av8or1]

[snip]
Y giggles around with the interpreter and I'm a lump on a log.  It gets old, so I go get the camera.  I like Y very much, she's a great gal and a great interpreter so I decide to take some photos for her.

Ooopsy, that should have said "...I like the interpreter very much, she's a great gal...", not that I liked Y very much.  Sorry for any confusion, it was late when I posted...

Thanks!

Jerry

[av8or1]

"Unfortunately most of the women I meet are out of my age range, <= 24 is just a bit too young for my tastes."

So why did you meet with these women?  Isn't this just about as ill advised as your WOVO type of approach?

Or are you suggesting that Kevin just did not have any age appropriate ladies for you?  I don't understand why agencies are not over run by older gals searching for a husband.

Hey albert,

Yeah, that's precisely it, there weren't many women in the late 20's/early 30's age range who I was interested in.  As jinx13 has already posted about me, I would prefer to start my own family (no offense to the Americanized, PC ears) so I am not interested in women who already have children, sorry.  So it was either sit around for three days with the guys or go out and have some fun doing stuff, even if I wasn't into the girl all that much.  I chose the latter.

Best,

Jerry

[av8or1]

Hey Jerry,

 Great T/R, but I'm curious as to why it took you 4 times to realize that going that far to meet one girl is a bit risky ???  I do understand what you mean about being a one woman type guy, I am the same way, but in this type of venture you have to expand your opportunities, and better your chances of finding "the right one"

Of course the odds are better if you take a WMVM approach, we all know that.  I was just being "a good guy" about it, can't help it.  I really only want to meet one woman and begin a life with her and I let that carry over into the approach that I utilize in the PROCESS to meet such a woman.  There should be a separation in the guy's mind regarding the process of meeting the woman of your future vs. what you do when you meet her.  I think a lot of men get that one screwed up....

You don't think at 24 a Russian girl is ready to marry? Man, they start thinking of marriage at 18! Of course that's too young, but 24 is definitely ready, most FSU girls start to feel like old maids at that age.

In most cases, yes, they're too young, if you ask me, which you did.  The FSU is becoming more Western-ized all of the time and the influences are being seen in many areas.  IMHO, one of those areas is in the notion of what is a good age to marry.  There is still a lot of the "old school" mentality around to be had, no doubt about it however, so it really comes down to the character and background of the individual woman you meet.  I'm 39 and for me personally to seriously date a woman who is <= 24 would take some real convincing on her part that she is ready for a lifetime committment such as marriage.

I disagree with some of you guys about women showing affection. What, dump them if they're not all over you within the first few meetings? It takes time to get to know someone, even after many letters a real life meeting can make you and the girl very nervous. When I did the WOVO thing my first trip, the girl was not affectionate at all for 3 days, but then toward the end of the week she softened up, and held my arm, and sat close to me. It takes time with some people, don't give up on a girl just because she might be shy or nervous about you.

Well let's agree to disagree, for the most part anyway.  I'll grant you that there can be exceptions, but from my experience if the woman is into you at all, she's gonna show it and HOW.  If you get anything less than that, it's time to pull the D-ring and find a new woman to pursue and see how things work out from there.  The question is really one of "when", that is "when" is it time to bail?  All I can say is trust your INSTINCT.  If you've dated at all, even here, you generally know what the answer is.  Accepting that answer and doing what is not easy to do (bailing) is usually where most men fail.  They rationalize, they debate, they ask other men for advice.  When I find myself doing these things, I step back and look at what I'm doing and realize that I've just answered my own questions...
 

Jerry, I hope you find a good girl this next trip, I know it's difficult to be a "player"  type guy, I don't like it either, but to travel so far, and invest so much time and money, you want to make sure you meet a lot of women, and you might be surprised that your 'back up' girl could end up being the love of your life, you just never know.

Thanks Dave, we'll see.  This time I am WITHOUT DOUBT gonna do the WMVM thing and see what happens from there.  It's either gonna be Tver, Russia or Vinnitsa, Ukraine for me this time.  This next trip will be in November, the week of Thanksgiving.  Gonna miss the turkey and watchin' my 'Boys play ball, but finding a life partner has become a priority for me, so hey.   Right now Tver is looking the best, but we'll see, no decision yet.

Either way, I will post another TR when I get back and let y'all know what happens and how I was treated by the agency that I use.  This is a great place to share experiences and learn from each other.  I am glad to contribute and hope that I can help someone.  Thank y'all so much, I appreciate your time, effort and comments.

Best,

Jerry

[DKMM]

Nice TR.

Some guy on here once said RW are up front with their feelings.  He has very little experience then IMO.  Obviously you can't compare it to AW, because in America girls purposely don't show interest in order to get chased (at which point you must then stop showing interest in order to get their attention further raised).  This is what I was hoping to avoid by going this route but they have their own game there in FSU.  Its called lets try to get the guy to like me and confuse the hell out of him.

My instinct told me one RW was way more into me than anyone I've ever dated (ok one exception).  Physical attention, meeting friends family you name it, ZERO red flags, her appearing almost desperate for me and poof! its like i never even existed after I returned to the US.  Another girl that didn't even show me much liking and I even less for her, can't leave me alone now for no good reason.  The moral is, there is no magic formula for knowing if she's into you except visiting her and seeing what she says/does AFTER you leave.  One possibility is that maybe they just don't want you to find someone else while you are there and do it all for the attention. 

[SANDRO43]

they have their own game there in FSU.  Its called lets try to get the guy to like me and confuse the hell out of him.

A similar experience with correspondence. I receive on average 2-3 letters/day from FSUW, directly or via agency, saying something like "I like your structure (sic), let's correspond, etc.". I usually reply to those I like with "Thank you, OK, let's correspond" and, in many cases, I never hear from them again.

My take is that they are simultaneously writing to a number of different people, sort through their received replies and respond only to those they consider more interesting .

[groovlstk]

Nice TR.

Some guy on here once said RW are up front with their feelings.  He has very little experience then IMO.  Obviously you can't compare it to AW, because in America girls purposely don't show interest in order to get chased (at which point you must then stop showing interest in order to get their attention further raised).  This is what I was hoping to avoid by going this route but they have their own game there in FSU.  Its called lets try to get the guy to like me and confuse the hell out of him.

I've made 9 trips to Ukraine and Russia over the last year alone for the sole purpose of meeting women. Never once was I confused about whether a girl liked me; if I had doubts, I instantly moved on. I don't know if this is the "best" strategy, but for me I'd seen way too many guys (including myself, early in my search) fall for a girl who has little interest in him, thereby wasting valuable months, years, and a lot of cash. As I did at the time, these men invent every possible excuse for their girl's indifferent behavior and refuse to believe what's painfully obvious to his friends.

Agency girls, in particular, know that the courtship rules are different and the timetable of "getting to know each other" is accelerated, especially during a man's first trip. If she is into you, she will make it very obvious before you head back home.

My instinct told me one RW was way more into me than anyone I've ever dated (ok one exception).  Physical attention, meeting friends family you name it, ZERO red flags, her appearing almost desperate for me and poof! its like i never even existed after I returned to the US.

You're correct, affection and attention aren't the only considerations, there's always a chance either you or your girl might lose that lovin' feeling after you leave. If I remember correctly, the girl you met was quite young. Have you bailed on her?

Another girl that didn't even show me much liking and I even less for her, can't leave me alone now for no good reason.

It's very easy for even a timid girl to write glowingly romantic letters. That same girl, if she's not interested in a guy, might not find it so easy to feign interest when she's with him in person. I'd instantly question the motives of a woman who writes to tell me she adores me, yet is reluctant to move beyond the hand-holding stage after a few days together.

There's no perfect formula, but it's painfully obvious that showing affection, doing the little things that a girl does when she truly digs a guy, etc., is what a guy should expect in the very least. It's no guarantee of success, but it's a rock-solid standard in any courtship and it doesn't matter if your girl is Russian or American.

[Turboguy]

I think sometimes it is a game we all play.   On my tour I met a lot of women.  Some seemed like someone I could be quite interested in, others didn't.   Even the ones I knew were not of that much interest I tried to seem interested because I felt they would be disappointed if I showed a lack of interest.   I am not saying I was discussing our honeymoon plans together but I was smiling, paying attention to the things the told me, taking an interest in them and usually left on a "I will try to come back in a few months and spend more time with you note"  even if I filed thier contact info in file 13 when the meeting was over.

It probably would be better to not lead them on but it seemed the kinder way to go.

[DKMM]

Sandro, I know exactly what you are talking about.  And I think you are right in the motives thing.  Odd thing though is that only happened to me when it was all in Russian and my Russian is not very good so I assumed they dropped me because they could see a major communication issue down the road.   

Groov,
It sounds about right but what happens when there are no doubts?  I can't imagine any reasonable thing she could have done that would have given me more of an impression that she wanted me.  My 1st doubts are the now 3 weeks of silence from her.  I can't bail on someone that bailed on me (but I can start pursuing other girls).  She was 23 and the oldest I met, she even told me she was worried I would think her too old and find someone younger there (I'm only 5 years older than her).  Who knows why, I could waste time speculating... I will find out eventually as I'm using a 3rd party to find out.  She might have a good reason but my point was you just don't know for sure until you get back.  Or maybe if you spend more than 4 days together, but not always an option for us WMVM's.  Even full on sex wouldn't tell all.

As far as the girl that now digs me, if you read my TR its the girl that liked my friend.  Now that he's out of her picture she has locked on to me.  Clearly she is acting more desperate though.  But her behavior since we met and I'm back in the states demonstrates clearly that she really wants something.  That's pretty much my original point.

Ahh but these women are worth every bit of the effort. 

[av8or1]

I've made 9 trips to Ukraine and Russia over the last year alone for the sole purpose of meeting women. Never once was I confused about whether a girl liked me; if I had doubts, I instantly moved on. I don't know if this is the "best" strategy, but for me I'd seen way too many guys (including myself, early in my search) fall for a girl who has little interest in him, thereby wasting valuable months, years, and a lot of cash. As I did at the time, these men invent every possible excuse for their girl's indifferent behavior and refuse to believe what's painfully obvious to his friends.

groovlstk,

Very well said.  I have been on 10 trips in total myself, though over a much broader period of time and several of those were to see one woman with whom things ultimately didn't work out.  If there's one thing I've learned it's that the when-in-doubt-pull-the-D-ring-and-eject-immediately technique is absolutely the best thing to do when you find yourself involved in an ambiguous situation.  I hope that all of the newbies out there take this to heart, for their own sake.  Regarding the issue of what happens after you return, sure DKMM that is a consideration, who said it wasn't?  That's the second part of the equation.  Basically the formula is:

clear-and-obvious-interest-in-person + continued-interest-post-visit + time = strong potential for something serious

Anything less than that at any point along the way means it's time to bail.  Period.  And I can say that with particular emphasis because I pursued a particular UW in the past and when she said that things wouldn't work, I said "ok" and we became "just friends."  Lord but I loathe that phrase, as most of us men do.   So...we're still friends to this day and that's all we'll ever be, despite the fact that there's more there for me.  Some might call this "ok" but I don't, I wanted more and when I learned that there wasn't gonna be more I should have instantly moved on, found someone else and never looked back.  But I didn't.  I kept trying and after trying most everything I can think of, nothing has changed.  The point to this little sad story is that if you hang around while hoping or trying with these women when they aren't into you it will result in nothing happening, nothing whatsoever.  Never say never as the saying goes, but I'd hazard to say "never" WRT to U/RW in this regard.  It's like a light switch with them and once it's off, it stays off.  At least in my experience.  So it really is best to put the boat engine in high gear, troll to a new part of the sea and drop a line somewhere else when the fish you were trying to catch is only nibbling at your offerings.  I've done that now and learned the hard way that this general notion, though also true in the USA, is even "more true" in the FSU.

Best to all,

Jerry

[Turboguy]

Good post Jerry.   I think anyone who is new should read that one about ten times and then have it tatooed onto their arm so they don't forget.   

[Shadow]

Actually the 'just friends' worked very well for me. I have now lost contact after 3 years with a non-FSU friend, but still chat with my Ukrainian friend regularly.
We tried to help each other, and her help was probably more valuable as she still is available (hint).

But the important thing is that just friends mean exactly that. Do not hang on to feelings it might become more eventually but just move on. Try to get her help in what you did wrong to her eyes, as you might be able to improve it next time. Something like wardrobe failures.

Otherwise I can assure to all that the diference between a woman with little to no interest in you and one that has a high interest level is huge. which means that if you have any doubt about her interest level, the eject button is the way to go.

[DKMM]

Jerry that is sage advice.  I wasn't trying to counter what you said, I was trying to add to it. 

Your position makes even more sense when the "other side of the world" thing comes to play like it does here.  Its one thing to pursue a local girl that initially turns you down (it works sometimes) but probably not a reasonable thing to do with someone all the way over there.  Especially like you said when there are loads of others out there.  Every day we waste with the wrong girl is a day lost finding the right ones.  And its a day more that someone else finds a good girl before you find her.

I have one of those just friends too Shadow (J from my TR).  I always knew she was way out of my league so fortunately I didn't develop feelings for her, so the friend thing works.  Still, I'd like nothing more than for her to wake up one day realizing she wants me but I'm not pretending it will happen. 

[av8or1]

Actually the 'just friends' worked very well for me. I have now lost contact after 3 years with a non-FSU friend, but still chat with my Ukrainian friend regularly.
We tried to help each other, and her help was probably more valuable as she still is available (hint).

But the important thing is that just friends mean exactly that. Do not hang on to feelings it might become more eventually but just move on. Try to get her help in what you did wrong to her eyes, as you might be able to improve it next time. Something like wardrobe failures.

Shadow,

Well you're kinda mixing apples and oranges a little WRT the point I was trying to make, though you are correct in what you say.  It's just a different context.  In the context I was referring to, a man is romantically interested in a woman, she doesn't return that interest and he'll probably always want her, so what to do?  Bail, as we've said.  If you can downshift to friends and be alright with that, then so be it.  But that's a different animal from what I was describing.  That is in my example, I'll never be ok with being "just friends" with this particular UW so bailing was the only option in the end.  My whole point to the newbies was and is to NOT waste your time doing what I did (and what others here have probably done too).  Do NOT continue to pursue her if you want her but there is no clear and present and obvious interest on her part.  She isn't American.  Continuing to pursue a "just friends" woman here can sometimes work.  I will boldy assert that it will NEVER work in the FSU, never.  I think we all agree on that.  I just wanted to clarify my point, that's all.

That having been said I agree with your notion of finding a FSU woman to be in your corner so to speak, during this venture.  It can be a great help, if it's genuine and sincere.  I would also like to recommend the flip side of that coin.  It can be tremendously helpful if you can find a U/RM to help you out, as other AM may have experienced also.  Heck, in a way it's even better than your UW friend because a R/UM knows what these women are up to and how to play their game.  I met a guy named Sergei once during ... when the heck was it ... oh yeah, this past New Years when I was in Kiev (hell of a fireworks show in Kiev on New Years, lemme tell ya what).  I had a couple of meetings with a woman who seemed nice enough.  Sergei was a friend of the taxi driver who had picked me up at the airport, which was how I met him, he happened to be tagging along, "assisting" as it were.  Sergei seemed to have an issue with the women in his country acting like vultures on foreign men.  "Wow," I thought to myself, "a UM with character."  So I asked him to give his $.02 on this woman I had met.  We all met up one night and after a short while they began a somewhat heated exchange.  They were talking in Russian so fast I couldn't keep up with them.  After a few minutes, Sergei tells me - right in front of her - that he's seen her with foreign men over the span of a couple of years and says that she'll never leave Kiev, that she's a player.  I was shocked because I hadn't picked up on that at all.  However, after his aggressive inquiry she might as well have had "BUSTED" written all over her.  I looked in her eyes and I could see that Sergei was telling me the truth.  She had the look of a 3 year old who's been caught with her hand in the cookie jar.  She knew that I knew, I knew that she knew and he knew that she knew that I knew.  We were a knowledgable group after that.

What's really at issue here is that it took the knowledge, experience and skills of a local MAN to break this woman's facade.  Once broken, the truth was self evident.  I doubt seriously that I could have affected the same result on my own.  Needless to say I didn't see her again and I bought Sergei a few extra drinks that night...

Otherwise I can assure to all that the difference between a woman with little to no interest in you and one that has a high interest level is huge. which means that if you have any doubt about her interest level, the eject button is the way to go.

Not much I can add to that, well said Shadow.

Best to all,

Jerry

[DKMM]

I'd like to add to this some more.  I've definitely been talking to my "friend" more and realized that the more I've confided in her about this process the more she is opening up to me.  I think somone on here mentioned Russians love to share misery or something like that.  Its sort of true I guess.

You boldly asserted that it would never work with a FSU girl, but tonight my "friend" who is nothing more told me she would only consider getting into a relationship (even with an AM) by being friends first for a while.  Maybe she is lying? 

[Michelangelo]

Because of their history with American men who come to the FSU saying they are serious, but in truth are not, things are changing.

The new litmus test for some girls is to tell the man they want to be friends first to see if the man is serious, and if he continues to be interested in them without sex right away.  After all, friendship is VERY important in marriage.

Having said this, the friendship stage must turn to romance within a relative short period of time. If not, then she is not serious about you as a man.