spouse or fiancee ?

[KyivTrip]

Hi Everybody,
I know this issue has been discussed before, but I also know that things change.

I am at the point of having to decide, and discuss with my intended, the difference - pros and cons - of marrying in Ukraine or going the fiancee visa route.

Any recent or relevant experience would be appreciated.  I am under the impression that it is easier to bring a spouse to the US and I am also thinking that it would be nice if her Mother, family and friends could come to the wedding.

Thanks,
David

[Jet]

Here' a list of the pros and cons of any K-1 vs K-3 (not specifically Ukraine) from my website:

K-1 advantages:
If you live in the Northeast, this is the fastest way to be together
You will spread the many USCIS fees out over time
If for some reason she doesn’t turn out to be the woman whom you expected, there is no obligation to marry
Your family and friends can attend the wedding
You’ll not need to provide Apostilled documents to the US Embassy
If she has a minor child, there is the opportunity for that child to “follow to join” up to one year later (giving her time to get adjusted to her new life without added stress)

K-1 disadvantages:
If you live in the Midwest or Northwest it is the slowest way to be together
You’ll have more separate applications to file to gain the same benefits as a K-3
If she is less than completely committed to the relationship, you could be paying the bill for a very expensive vacation for her.
Her family and friends will most likely not be able to attend the wedding
All of her required documents will need to be translated to English
She will likely need to wait at least 6 months before travel abroad is possible
It is a 90 day single entry visa

K-3 advantages:
It is as fast or faster than a K-1 if you live in the Southeast, Southwest, Midwest, or Northwest of the US Work and travel authorization are included in the cost of the application (it is a two year multi-entry visa) Her family and friends can attend the wedding

K-3 disadvantages:
Larger up-front cost
Your documents will need to have an Apostille stamp certified good for her country of residence and you will be subjected to all the bureaucratic red tape of her gov’t.
If for some reason she doesn’t turn out to be the woman whom you expected, you are still married and subject to all related Family Law provisions in your area in addition to the Affidavit of Support you’ll be required to file with USCIS at the time of your application.
If she has a minor child, that child must emigrate at the same time
Once you’ve decided which visa is right for you, you must determine if you qualify.
In Ukraine you have a third option: DCF (Direct Consular Filing) whick works very much like the K-3 but cuts *most* of the USCIS boolsheet out of the process. Once issued she'll land in the US as a RESIDENT Alien without the need to later adjust status, and be allowed to work and travel immediately (more or less). The procedure takes 4 to 6 months and several guys here have done it....AJ comes to mind.

[jb]

Good explanation, Jet.

Having done the K-3/K-4 route and having a K-4 step-son, I would only comment that the K-4 child is also able to "follow on" after.  We waited until the boy finished his school year before bringing him over, which was several months after the wife arrived on her K-3.

What we don't often talk about, because it was so long ago and nobody gives a crap about it, we also did a K-1/K-2 visa application, (which was approved), but decided to wait because the step-son had recently returned to Moscow after graduating from high school here while on a student visa.  As a result, he had a two year bar on his passport for re-entry to the US.  Therefore, ours was a much longer courtship than most of the guys here.  I realize the push for most men on the fourm is speed, the overwhelming question is; "How long does it take?" .  In our case, after being married this long, having an almost 3-4 year courtship didn't seem to hurt.  We still got the job done in the end.

[username33]

In Ukraine you have a third option: DCF (Direct Consular Filing) whick works very much like the K-3 but cuts *most* of the USCIS boolsheet out of the process. Once issued she'll land in the US as a RESIDENT Alien without the need to later adjust status, and be allowed to work and travel immediately (more or less). The procedure takes 4 to 6 months and several guys here have done it....AJ comes to mind.

I tried this when I was living in Ukraine, and though I got an appointment, it was only after convincing the person on the other end that I was a resident of the country. It took some back and forth before she'd pencil me in. It could be that they're reducing the number of these due to the increased number of cases they're hearing (the reason for their buidling a new building to process the applicants).

[beattledog]

I would like to ask a dumb question.  What does Apostatized documents mean that you indicate in your post?

[jb]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2410.0

[Admin]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2410.0

I have a hunch you REALLY enjoyed that jb 

- Dan

[jb]

Yes, Dan, I did.

Finally, after all the work members put forth on the FAQ section we see it start to pay off. 

I note that when folks view the forum as a "Guest", the FAQ project section is not visible on their screen.  I hope that when that section finally gets a home of it's own our guests will be able to see the wealth of information contained there. 

[Admin]

Yes, Dan, I did.

Finally, after all the work members put forth on the FAQ section we see it start to pay off. 

I note that when folks view the forum as a "Guest", the FAQ project section is not visible on their screen.  I hope that when that section finally gets a home of it's own our guests will be able to see the wealth of information contained there. 

Hmmm.... I'll have to check on that. I do not recall setting permissions any differently on those forums than the others - but I will check.

And BTW - I am working out the permanent 'home' for the FAQ's right now - and fully plan for them to be just as accessible as all the materials on the site. There is very little which is hidden from Guests - the photos in the Image Gallery - and the Shoutbox are the only things I can think of.

- Dan

[jb]

Dan,

It's curious, when I log off, the FAQ section is not visible on my screen, yet while logged off, I clicked on the above link and 'lo and behold, I was able to read the FAQ answer section the link pointed to.  So the projects section are not entirely hidden from guests, however I think they must follow a link to get there.  Without a *Logged On* member pointing the way, the guest would not be aware that it exists.

[philb]

I tried this when I was living in Ukraine, and though I got an appointment, it was only after convincing the person on the other end that I was a resident of the country. It took some back and forth before she'd pencil me in. It could be that they're reducing the number of these due to the increased number of cases they're hearing (the reason for their buidling a new building to process the applicants).

This may have been the case at one time, but the current regulations do not require you to be a resident of Ukraine.

As far as getting her here quickly,  the DCF route (in Ukraine) can be very fast.  If one had their ducks in a row she could be on her way to the US in less than 60 days from the time of marriage.  Of course the Embassy is free to screw things up on an individual basis.

[jb]

If one had their ducks in a row she could be on her way to the US in less than 60 days from the time of marriage.

While I don't doubt the DCF is faster than a K-1 or K-3, but are you sure about the "60 days" timeline?  It was my understanding that Embassies in the FSU countries were now under instructions to submit all DCF applications to the usual security checks.  The FBI/CIA etc. background checks often take longer than 60 days, even longer if the woman has been married before and there are several names to be checked.

I know that some countries are skimmed over in this regard, but FSU countries are not on the "Friendly" list, and immigrant brides are looked at very carefully. 

This is a subject that needs it's own thread, and perhaps it's own FAQ highlight.  I'm sure there are many men who would consider the DCF option if they knew more about it.

[Admin]

While I don't doubt the DCF is faster than a K-1 or K-3, but are you sure about the "60 days" timeline?  It was my understanding that Embassies in the FSU countries were now under instructions to submit all DCF applications to the usual security checks.  The FBI/CIA etc. background checks often take longer than 60 days, even longer if the woman has been married before and there are several names to be checked.

I know that some countries are skimmed over in this regard, but FSU countries are not on the "Friendly" list, and immigrant brides are looked at very carefully. 

This is a subject that needs it's own thread, and perhaps it's own FAQ highlight.  I'm sure there are many men who would consider the DCF option if they knew more about it.

60 days is MORE than sufficient time.

The major downside to the DCF for most guys is there is no trial marriage period *in the US*. If the gal arrives and just cannot stomach the water or the culture (or lack of) or any other aspect of life in the US, the process to unwind things is MUCH more complex than a simple return airfare.

The pluses are many - so long as the couple is really ready to tie the knot formally.

- Dan

[Darth Vader]

That's a good point, Dan.

No matter how well you know your girl and even if you marry her and live with her for a year in Ukraine, it's a whole new ball game when she hits US soil and she sees our strange ways, our fat girls, and tastes our strange food.

The 90 days might be needed in some cases to see if she can overcome culture shock and start to adjust to life in the USA.

~Darth

[Turboguy]

Hummm Strange foods.   You can always take her to McDonalds so she can get something similar to what she can get at home.   

[Jet]

That's a good point, Dan.
The 90 days might be needed in some cases to see if she can overcome culture shock and start to adjust to life in the USA.

It is a good point, and it was the #1 reason we chose the K-1 over the K-3 when we went through it. If Amerika was just "too weird" for Lil, she could return home without having totally disrupted the life of Kolya.

[BC]

I think the fact that we married first was quite good for us.  We were both looking for a solid commitment to each other regardless of where we landed or lived. We took a good amount of time to work out the 'what if's' beforehand. Of course the 'what if she doesn't like it here' was one of them.  If for some reason life here was intolerable for her we would have packed bags and headed to RU..

I dunno... if I hear 'She went back because she didn't like it here', the first thought that comes to mind is 'Well if the relationship was sound why did you not go back with her?'

I've always been against the 90 day 'trial' for many reasons discussed before and really think that many folks go into this venture with a lack of true commitment.  Instead of working out all the 'what if's' beforehand, they instead plan the fire exit route.

I think it would be more productive for governments to require that folks be married before allowing immigration.  Would probably cut the amount of applicants for marriage based immigrants in half, if not more.

[Jet]

I think it would be more productive for governments to require that folks be married before allowing immigration. 

Don't get me started BC 
I'm all for the marriage requirement SO LONG AS the prospective wife is allowed into her prospective husband's country to see what it's like beforehand - a luxury not afforded so manny FSU fiancees  :burnedup: by our current regime.

[Turboguy]

I can see your point BC, and I think if the only way I could be with someone I loved was to move there I would have no hesitation no matter if it was Moscow, Barnaul or the North Pole.

I do think the 90 day thing is good except it should be 180.  I guess I am agreeing with you in theory and Jet in practice. 

[Bruno]

I do think the 90 day thing is good except it should be 180.

Since my "Visa C marriage" was stopped these thuesday due to error and mistake from administration... i have just start a "Visa D for cohabitation within a stable, long-term relationship"... tomorrow morning, the last document will be ready... 24 hours and all is right... on the girlfriend side, the procedure is similar to a tourist visa with invitation ( but no need to round trip plane ticket and no need travail insurrance )...

Once in Belgium, the remaining procedure is simple :

Within eight days of your arrival in Belgium, you must go in person to the municipal authority in your partner's place of residence. You must actually live together in Belgium for the entire duration of your relationship and share the same household. Within six months of the issue date of the visa, you must sign a contract stating that you live together (i.e. a contrat de vie commune/samenlevingscontract) in the presence of a Belgian notary or make a cohabitation declaration (déclaration de cohabitation/verklaring van wettelijke samenwoning) in the presence of your local municipal authorities's registrar, in accordance with Article 1476 of the Civil Code. All applications for extensions of residence permits must be accompanied by the required proof of cohabitation.

So, if we need it, we have all our life for decide if we marry... it is not a obligation... in case of marriage, she can receive the "green card" after 3 year... if we simply stay together without marriage, it is 3.5 year...

In some way, it is like local dating... when you use some month or year together with your girlfriend before decide to marry...

BEWARE... it is a little problem.... if the girlfriend decide after some month to return in Ukraine, you cannot make a other "Visa D" before the end of the 3.5 year delay...

[BC]

Don't get me started BC 
I'm all for the marriage requirement SO LONG AS the prospective wife is allowed into her prospective husband's country to see what it's like beforehand - a luxury not afforded so manny FSU fiancees  :burnedup: by our current regime.

Jet,

In effect what difference would it make if she could visit beforehand? A fiancee in my book is someone you will marry and not someone you might marry.  A true relationship should withstand ANY hardships related to the location.

Current laws may seem a bit draconian but the fact is that any woman crossing the borders of the US for whatever reason (tourist, fiancee, business etc) can probably come up with some excuse to remain if they so desire. Heck even an unsubstantiated 'I was kidnapped in Tijuana, dragged over the border and abused, forced to work in a brothel will probably ben enough for a green card.  The 'key' for a visitors visa is enough evidence that they return and the hoops are not really that difficult.  I kinda agree that if a woman does not have what it takes for a tourist visa, she likely has a good reason not to return.

Want to bring a totally dependent live-in girlfriend to date and have around the house while you decide whether or not she is good enough to stay?  Even in Bruno's case the Belgian government seems to require either marriage or cohabitation agreement (similar to common law marriage) within 6 months..  I wonder what would happen if his GF decides to stay but not with Bruno?..  I'm sure a part of the paperwork he is filling out lists his obligations should this happen.

Are governments simply saying "Look before you leap!", and maybe "Look a second and maybe third time before..."?

To all those still looking I can only say: Find a woman that will follow you to the end of the earth or be ready to follow her. Anything less is just a dating game.. one your government is certain not to support.

(playing devil's advocate)

[jb]

BC,

It's scary how we think so much alike.  The post above is pure wisdom. 

[ConnerVT]

BC (and jb), I would love to agree with you 100%.... but I can't.

Ideally, the decision of marriage could be made solely on love, trust, and believe in your potential spouse.  But a bond of just the heart is only half as strong as it needs to be.  It also has to be a bond that's made with the rational, thinking mind, and not just the emotional, subjective heart.

In my case, when I proposed to Natalya, her answer was, "Yes.........maybe."  For even though she would have unequivocally chosen to marry me and relocate to the USA, she needed to see what environment she was going to bring her (then) 5 y.o. son into.  Certainly a rational, objective decision, as she had never been to the USA and experienced it first hand.

If we are talking about a real, equal marriage, where both husband and wife make decisions and contributions towards improving family life each day, how could any foreign woman decide for certain that they would be able to fulfill their equal half of the proposition?  It is not a question of planning a "fire exit route" but rather determining if both people involved will be happy where they decide to put down roots.  Unhappy spouses usually make for unhappy marriages.

For foreign spouses, it is another hardship that domestic relationships typically never bear.  How often does it happen that two people meet in, let's say, Los Angeles, have a relationship there, decide to marry, then move back to the husband's home in Chicago, where the newlywed bride has never been or seen?

[Darth Vader]

A fiancee in my book is someone you will marry and not someone you might marry.  A true relationship should withstand ANY hardships related to the location.

To all those still looking I can only say: Find a woman that will follow you to the end of the earth or be ready to follow her. Anything less is just a dating game.. one your government is certain not to support.

Great post, BC. I agree with you 100%.

[SANDRO43]

Great post, BC. I agree with you 100%.

... and if This is CNN says that ...
(these ellipses ARE contagious ).