The Real Allure?

[IAmZon]

It is amazing how much effort, and raw investment in time learning the Russian / Ukrainian culture  - with the vision of finding a Russian / Ukrainian mate has become!!!  I am finding that I like it more and more ... which must be a good sign.

My comment / question to the more expereinced of the group today is one of "goal definition" and "goal attainment". 

What was the ALLURE to you; to go through this effort to FIND a woman.  ( I doubt many accidentally "found" their second half who just happened to live 1,000s of miles away.  No, no ... this is something that is designed - WHY?)

It is impossible to not see the issue of finding a YOUNGER woman ranks very high with most men.  Perhaps just as high is the apparent truth that a man with low physical qualities can find a mate in Russia with high physical qualities - TRADING UP.

Is that it!?!?! 

Number 1 - I am working on the supposition that communication between myself (I don't know Russian) and a Russian lady will be more difficult ... BUT PERHAPS MORE TRUTHFUL.

(I know that seems oxymoronic.  I am a sales person; very good at making a warm introduction.  I am very easy to like - affable.  I have found that those qualities, however, do NOT NECESSARILY add up to building an honest connection with a woman.  I was surprised to find that in dating girls who spoke less English, I was able to have more authentic and seemingly more purposeful conversations.  But, I note that these experiences have been few, and did not last very long).

Number 2 - The immigrant spirit.  Those who take risks may reap greater rewards.  Those who take risks are usually more confident, competent, and more ALIVE than those who risk little.  I have truly found a certain "numbness" in American women.  I know this is a generalization, but such generalizations often have a basis in truth.

I particularly am interested in hearing from those with experience and a thoughtful nature. I agree that every battle is determined before it is fought. Knowing one's true motives; and knowing the REAL environment is very important.

By the way, I DO date pretty ladies who are 20 - 32 year old in the US. I have many friends who do as well.  If you get into the right social circles, and are not to far gone physically, many US girls ARE available.

My attraction to this endeavour is not age or beauty.

[SANDRO43]

Number 1 - I am working on the supposition that communication between myself (I don't know Russian) and a Russian lady will be more difficult ... BUT PERHAPS MORE TRUTHFUL.
(I know that seems oxymoronic.  I am a sales person; very good at making a warm introduction.  I am very easy to like - affable.

Possibly because in that case you're forced to THINK, rather than put on subconsciously your comfortable salesman's garb, which many women appear capable of spotting intuitively ?

[jb]

from rivardco;

( I doubt many accidentally "found" their second half who just happened to live 1,000s of miles away.  No, no ... this is something that is designed - WHY?)

Don't count on it, there are a number of men on this very board who met their wives without the assistance of a MOB agency.  Some men have reason to travel to Russia for business other than "monkey business".

What was the ALLURE to you;

Surely you are asking with tongue firmly in cheek.  Some of the world's most beautiful women can be found in the FSU.

I am a sales person; very good at making a warm introduction.

This probably won't help much with winning over the suspicious and cynical nature of the typical RW.  They can spot a sales pitch from a mile away.  Which is almost against their nature because the typical RW gets married, not especially because she has fallen in love with a man, but rather because she has decided *it's time to get married and have my babies*, and it's almost as though the next available and semi-qualified male who happens along will do.   Her own culture exerts a strong influence over her to get married by a certain age.

Number 1 - I am working on the supposition that communication between myself (I don't know Russian) and a Russian lady will be more difficult ... BUT PERHAPS MORE TRUTHFUL.

This is a myth, if you believe this I've got some Arizona beach property for sale.

Number 2 - The immigrant spirit.  Those who take risks may reap greater rewards.  Those who take risks are usually more confident, competent, and more ALIVE than those who risk little.

I don't have a problem with the "immigrant spirit" notion.  However, in our increasingly technical world, those with the better educations seem to do better that those with simple aggressive tendencies.  This notion also flies in the face of what most men are actually wishing for in a spouse. Rather than seeking out the aggressive female, most of the guys around here would tell you that's why they are shunning AW.

By the way, I DO date pretty ladies who are 20 - 32 year old in the US. I have many friends who do as well.  If you get into the right social circles, and are not to far gone physically, many US girls ARE available.

I really don't know why you'd consider running the foreign bride gauntlet if the above is true.  It's expensive, a lot of work, and not for the faint of heart, and lacks that which you seem want the most.  It sounds to me like you have the "Bird's Nest On The Ground" right where you are.  Why are you thinking about a FSUW?

[Kuna]

What was the ALLURE to you; to go through this effort to FIND a woman. 

Excellent post...  I'm by no means experienced (I've just started on this journey) but I have seriously considered my motivations and questioned myself for many months before joining an agency and including "formalised dating" to the itinerary for my holiday.

Like Rivardco,  I have no problems dating girls that live close to me... In fact one of my motivations for looking towards FSU for a potential partner is because I'm tired of dating girls that ultimately bore or frustrate me through various dysfunctions.

For me it was as simple as this... Even though I'm "Aussie Mate", I grew up in a very European household (I even have an easily recognisable Ukrainian surname) and I genuinely respect the values I grew up with. 

I dated a German girl for a while in Australia and while she was spectacular, in some ways I felt that "modernisation" had taken spoilt the potential that might have existed.

Sure looks will play a role in any decision in the future, but I've been dating beautiful girls here.  Age has less of an impact for me,  I'm looking for someone I'm genuinely compatible with... 

For me the missing link (let's call it "essence") is a set of values that is compatible with my own core values.

Will I find it?  I have no idea, but I won't let the distance, difficulty, effort or expense stop me from answering my own question. 

[Gator]

It was a sequence of events.

After my divorce from a 25-year marriage, I had two relationships with some fine AW.  Both dumped me, one after 15 months, the other after 3 months.  I now realize that I was in a rebound and not ready for a relationship, and these two did not cut me any slack. 

My ex- (who is a friend) suggested I try the Internet.  Two days later I saw a RW banner, clicked it and spent four straight hours leering at  these women.

For the next week I researched the concept and found several agency sites.  The idea seemed plausible:  I have an adventurous spirit, enjoy traveling, and even had visited the Soviet Union in 1987 when I noticed some very beautiful women despite their drab clothing. 

So I purchased addresses of a few women and wrote them.  That was Spring 2002.  I was interested but not yet lured into the trap.  Then their letters starting arriving.  Many were more than interesting - they were fascinating and they had sincere and profound thoughts about life. That was what lured me into this delightful "trap", and soon I was on an airplane. 

Dated the same RW for three years (what a story), broke up, dated one of those earlier AW for a month, soon got back on another airplane to Russia, dated RW No. 2 for 7 months, broke up with her, dated a new AW (for two weeks), got back onto another plane, met too many UW, reconciled with RW No. 2, and am now focusing on her. However, last week RW No. 1 has given me a "First Right of Refusal" (another story). 

Not only have I been allured, I swallowed the hook.

[IAmZon]

Thank you all for your remarks ...

Kuna offered the notion of "Essence".  JB offered the observation that RW committ to marriage largely because of culture and timing.

As I read Kuna's post, I agree with this issue of "ESSENCE".  I have certainly found a LACK of the "essential ingratiates" I need to find in a lady in order for me to commit to marriage in the US.  I made an observation a couple of weeks ago.  I submit it for your consideration:

I took two pretty girls - 26 and 28  - to a very popular, high end club in a big city.  One of the girls knew a person who got us through the door.  This is the kind of club where "the beautiful and famous people" go.  Hundreds of other people stayed behind the velvet rope waiting for a chance for admittance. (I am friends with both girls.  I have had romantic experiences with both.  One knows.  The other does not. I went for an adventure ... who knows may 3 would not be a crowd:) 

I do not go to clubs often these days.  I found the setting was surreal and  interesting - something from a science fiction movie.  The decoration and music was very different.  People's behaviour made it a different kind of costume party.  But the basic "meat-market" culture was the same.  Those who are physically attractive do best (Largely because the music is so LOUD nobody can communicate).  What I understood here was this:  The act of CHOOSING a mate leads to endless ECONOMIZING.  (is this person the best, or that one, or that one, or that one).  I think this behavior is something that is strongly becoming ingrained into the American psyche. 

Perhaps the ESSENCE factor is the opposite of this?  The human essence, the capacity to "keep a secrete" and "believe in a promise" has been difficult for me to find in this bird nest on the ground.  AW in their 20's are remarkably immature and unreliable; and AW in their 30's come with a lot of baggage - no matter how appealling.   I have reached a point in my life where I am seeking more than this.  It would NOT break my heart if Russia/Ukraine offers a different kind of disappointment.  Perhaps then, I would be resigned that this is all there is. 

But, I would prefer to believe in something more.  I will continue looking in the bird next on the ground.  But I think Russian and Ukraine is worthy of a look see too.

[IAmZon]

From another thread;

Having said that, the purpose of my post is this:

Girls in the FSU do have strong character when it comes to family.  They truly care about their parents and will take care of them.  This is a good trait.

So while guys may be attracted to beauty, the real beauty of the girls is their love of family.

Mmmm ... sounds like evidence for the ESSENCE thing?

[Gator]

The act of CHOOSING a mate leads to endless ECONOMIZING.  (is this person the best, or that one, or that one, or that one).  I think this behavior is something that is strongly becoming ingrained into the American psyche.

It happens also in Russia.  Because RW are pragmatic, those with many choices may depend moreso on making a decision based on analytical rather than emotional reasons.  Unlike AW, RW are decisive.

AW in their 30's come with a lot of baggage

Do you think RW are free of this?  Many have had a difficult life and this has left some scars or created some fences typical with dysfunctional families, impoverishment, and broken dreams.  The RW are good about hiding these.  In contrast, AW want to use you as a therapist.  The AW approach is probably healthier.  

There are many RW relatively free of such problems, so it is statistically advisable to meet more than one.  Take your time.  

the capacity to "keep a secret" and "believe in a promise" has been difficult for me to find

RW are great about keeping a secret.  It comes with their suspicious attitude.  “Believe in a promise” will be something important to some RW but not all.  Personally, I do not see a difference between AW and RW in this regard.

If you are looking for a difference, I offer four:

1.  Rw place more emphasis on family.  Families are almost tribal.  I suppose this extends from the days in which Russians could trust only their family.  (I see that you have now picked up on this).

2.  RW definitely place a higher importance than AW on having a man.  Some RW need you the same as they need air to breathe.  In contrast, AW are more independent, perhaps because they can earn the same money as a man.

3.  Spending time with RW is less complicated than with AW, even with a language barrier.  I feel very comfortable with them.  Maybe that is just me.

4.  Many beautiful RW will express interest in you, while the equivalent AW would not give you the time of day.  You can admit that this is the real allure for you, or at least very important.

Of course, you need to read the disclaimer that says every RW is different and you easily could meet an RW different from how I just stereotyped them.

[jb]

rivardco,

Perhaps I'm the wrong guy to ask, but I have spent so much time in and out of Russia since even back when it was the Soviet days, and know so many Russians personally, I think I understand some of this stuff, at least a little.

You speak of "essence", and I would tell you that some of that is "essentially" true.  However, if you are lucky enough to meet a bunch of Russians and get to know them well, even the very talented and beautiful among them exhibit the same earthy charm.  I prefer to refer to it as being honestly warm and caring by nature.  It is possible the the great 72 year leveling experience of communism beat out of them the notions of superiority and social class.  Even the best of the best were kept about equal to the worst and the inept.  Hence, the best scholars and scientists were living on about the same economic plane as the street sweeper.  Even after 17 or so years of post-Soviet era, those Russians who have achieved true celebrity status are completely approachable in a cafe or restaurant, I suggest you try that in Hollywood.

Here you see social pride which comes from achieving wealth, regardless of professional or academic excellence, i.e., my BMW is newer and bigger than your BMW.  Russian pride is built of sterner stuff.  For a Russian to be truly proud they must have excelled in something far more difficult than making money. 

I see my friend Gator has stepped in with an unusual measure of wisdom, read his words carefully, as he has a bead on what it takes to understand a Russian.

[IAmZon]

Russian pride is built of sterner stuff.  For a Russian to be truly proud they must have excelled in something far more difficult than making money. 

Another EXCELLENT feature NOT common in the US.  I find the opposite is true in AW!  And, I did not realize it fully until I read it ... I am truly SICK of the sense of unearned entitlement!

Now, for Gator's excellent point about "baggage", here is a question:  If you believe modern psychology we are all - ALL - traumatized by events in our youth.  I suppose a very intelligent and highly operational (deliberate and consistent) RG who is 23 - 28 would be able to adjust and land on her feet happy and well balanced.  Again, I see much "victimization" and characteristics that emotionally immobilize AW - especially the beautiful ones!

Again, generalizations are dangerous things.  But I find the thread to me illuminating.

[IAmZon]

JB,

After you mentioned that my sign-on name reminded you of an AARDVARK, I looked for an appropriate avatar.  Nothing really fit me.

So, I turned to character in Russian history that was TRULY larger than life (as I like to imagine myself). I wonder if you recognized him?

(Rasputin)

Certainly, I hope to enjoy a different outcome...  However, I would welcome the infamy.

[TexasBoar]

JB,

After you mentioned that my sign-on name reminded you of an AARDVARK, I looked for an appropriate avatar.  Nothing really fit me.

Well, they're not an especially attractive critter, at that:



Though---just as with many of us, lol---the situation improves somewhat once you get their clothes back on them:



I think the racing stripe is kind of a nice touch! 

~Boar

[av8or1]

rivardco,

How goes it?  It appears that you've gotten some good input from jb and Gator regarding Russians, their general character, lifestyle and even a bit of the culture.  All of you have made interesting points and I agree with the general notion that y'all are getting at, especially the sense of entitlement issue that AW possess in such HUGE, overwhelmingly inappropriate ways...

I'd like to add my POV to the question of "The Real Allure" by looking at the situation from the other way around: what is it about US men that makes US continue to travel down this expensive, time consuming, high risk path?  Is it the notion that if you pony up the dough and time you might find a younger woman?  A more beautiful woman?  A woman with better family values?  Hmmmmmm....

While all of those factors certainly play a role, for me it's something different (though I suppose one could argue that there's a common thread between the aforementioned qualities and what I am about to speak of).  No, for me it's a little something (that's actually quite big) called "hope."  Going to the FSU gives me the "hope" that I can find the type of marital relations I have wanted for ... well ever since I can remember.  To just step into it a bit and then come back out, the relations I speak of involve an "old school" way of thinking that focuses on the marriage and family as the first priority, not money or career or social status or "shopping for the perfect frozen yogurt" as your primary task in this life.  You know, the type of marriages that our grandparents and beyond had where you took marriage seriously and you respected its institution by upholding the traditional vows of "...for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and health, until death do you part..." - no making your own wedding vows (somehow you know how to say things better, right?  Oh dear) existed in those days.  No, you worked an honest day then came home to your family in a house on Main Street where the American flag flew proudly on its pole on the front porch and you'd say "Hi" to Stan, Joe and old lady Martha who'd been your neighbors for the past upteen years...it's the "wholesome family life" that has been so vividly displayed in Norman Rockwell art kind of deal...hopefully y'all understand my general notion here.  It seems to me that men these days are caught between what is PC and what we were raised around when we were kids.  Kinda like we're caught in some kind of generation warp/black hole or something.  Nowadays the focus seems to be on the individual instead of the family and that just doesn't jive with my sense of family and self-sacrifice...

Anyway, AW and all of their "stuff" quite frankly had drained me of all "hope" of ever achieving this kind of life.  Then I became friends with two guys who are married to women from the FSU and eventhough they come from different countries with different languages, cultures and backgrounds, they still HAD that kind of life.  Amazingly enough.  After spending some time with them and getting to know their FSU wives, the "hope" in me that had been quelled so far down I never thought I'd find it again somehow rose to the surface and with it came a fresh new spirit, a new way of looking at the world and our existence in it.  The name of this spirit is called "hope."  Their stories gave me "hope" and many of you men out there can probably relate.  That was late 2003.  Despite some setbacks in my trips, mostly due to poor choices on my part, that "hope" is still alive in me and I feel it whenever I go to the FSU and connect with the women there.  Usually they speak in terms of "we" and "us", not "I" and "me", and somehow the bare-bones discussions about marriage and family that are void of games and BS, the unusual surroundings that make you appreciate what you have and the raw connection that is possible with these women all strike at my fundamental core as a human being.  I don't know that I've ever had that with an AW, and it fuels my "hope" in a BIG way...

Now, ALL of this having been said: do I really think that I can be so lucky as my friends and see this "hope" become real by finding that type of woman for myself?  Eh, dunno.  Searching in the FSU or anywhere else for that matter won't guarantee you anything and it certainly won't be easy.  Lord but it won't be/isn't easy.  But hell fellas, if there's just one chance, just one chance in a million that I could have that kind of family life, I'll take it and travelling to the FSU gives me the "hope" of finding such a life, so I keep going back.  Whether or not my possession of this "hope" WRT FSU is realistic or not, well that's a different story that only time will tell.  I must admit that just allowing that "hope" to be alive in me during my short stays in the FSU in and of ITSELF ALONE is almost worth the price of admission, even if I never find a woman to be with!  The only downside to it of course is the let down when I come back to the USA, which can be kinda like the withdrawals that drug addicts must experience.  However, I try to stay positive and never give up.  I want to succeed at this venture and oneday have the kind of life I have spoken of so I keep up the fight.  And I keep my fingers crossed.  And I write emails.  And I search the Internet.  And I pray.  And I try to become smarter by doing research (these boards).  And I learn from others.  And I plan trips.  And I go on the trips.  And maybe, just maybe someday it will work out...

So rivardco, to borrow one of your terms, in "essence" The Real Allure is about "hope" and it is this "hope" that keeps me in this game.

Best to all,

Jerry

[Michelangelo]

Unlike AW, RW are decisive.

This is true, Gator.

But at the same time, RW want a decisive man who will lead them.

They may test you to see if you will stand up to them.  But what they really seek is a man who will be the man and the leader of the family.  They DON'T want to make the decisions.

[DKMM]

I'd like to add to this:  The accent.  Drives me NUTS!!! 

[jb]

So, I turned to character in Russian history that was TRULY larger than life (as I like to imagine myself). I wonder if you recognized him?

Yes, of course I recognize the mad Russian, one cannot be married this long to a Russian and not have some of the history rub off on him. 

I can see clearly that we have some members here who are worse off than we thought.  The general rule of thumb is; "don't fall in love with a photograph", but some of you men have taken this to a new level.  Maybe we need another Commandment that says; "don't fall in love with a concept".

However I can see that would be akin to unringing a bell.

[IAmZon]

No ... you cannot take HOPE, CONCEPTS, or the notion of the IDEAL away from us. 
It is what inspires us - the vision of the sweetest outcome! 

JB, for newbies this is the fun part, THE HUNT.  So, the concept becomes a preoccupation, an obsession.  If it were not so, one would never go through such costly planning.

I am not a child!  Of course I KNOW I will NEVER be happy  

This is human life.  The notion that happiness can be accomplished simply through the acquisition of an ideal mate is foolhardy.  "Into each life a little rain must fall." However, the inclination to marry as well as one can seems obvious.  But there are many others too; education; career; friends; children; religious faith.

JB, regarding THE CONCEPT, how does this read to you? Truth, or Propaganda?
http://www.askalla.com/twr/index.html

[jb]

Frankly, it looks like a sales pitch to me.  Would you buy a used lada from this woman?

[Gator]

JB wrote, Maybe we need another Commandment that says; "don't fall in love with a concept".

Very clever JB.  The problem with believing in a concept is the fact that every woman is different.  None of these character traits are guaranteed. 

These traits happen to be common to the women who are the wives and girl friends of the experienced men who post here.  These men are very delighted with their RW and are happily sharing the experience. 

For each of these good experiences there is a bad experience.  If you believe in preliminary divorce statistics the ratio is high,  bad:good::3:1.

There are very few stories of bad RW because those men have moved on to a new life without them.  Posting here would just remind them of painful experiences.  In past years I recall some very derogatory descriptions by men such as Bean during their divorce.  The words “selfish, lazy, deceitful, nonsexual, argumentative, stubborn, materialistic, spend crazy, money hungry,…” come to mind.

There are many good RW.  I have dated many, many and only had a bad experience with one.  All the others were decent and sincerely interested in me.  Maybe I was lucky, maybe I am careful, maybe I am insightful, maybe I have more time than most men, maybe I am avoiding the pool of sharks, maybe all of these apply to me.  For sure it helped that I spent much time with them (corresponding, calling and dating).

Rivardo, you seem very enthusiastic and are perhaps seeting your expectations too high.  The best way to start this venture is just go to FSU without preconceived notions and with a goal of finding a wife. Your mission would be to see some interesting places, experience the people, have a good time, and learn something about the women.
For enthusiastic people like you, before you go write on a piece of paper what you want in a woman.  Take the paper with you and then determine on an individual basis whether your date meets your requirements.  Do not assume anything.

 

[Michelangelo]

The problem with believing in a concept is the fact that every woman is different.  None of these character traits are guaranteed. 

Excellent point, Gator.  It's true.

In fact, while much excellent advice is dispensed to newbies here at RWD, all of it must be tested in the context of the individual situation and girl.  None of our advice here is guaranteed.

Trends are important, and true.  They are usually correct, and the newbie should take heed and be guarded.   

JB just posted his advice that when a woman tells a man she just wants to be friends, it's the 'kiss of death.'  And he's right--most of the time.  But consider the fact that my fiancee told me that, to test me to see if I was serious.  When I agreed to get to know her as a friend, other avenues opened up between us.

So yes, if you are a betting man, go with the established wisdom.

But how many of you guys bet on the Bears to defeat the Dolphins yesterday?  LOL 

[BC]

One aspect we seem to forget about is that the 'allure' as we are calling it is a product based on the prevailing environs in FSU.

Take a fresh water fish and throw it in salt water and see what happens..  the fish will obviously act a bit different.

Now I'm not saying that a RW will belly-up all the time, but she certainly will change over time in her new waters.

I'll be happy if the accent remains.

[KenC]

One aspect we seem to forget about is that the 'allure' as we are calling it is a product based on the prevailing environs in FSU.

Take a fresh water fish and throw it in salt water and see what happens..  the fish will obviously act a bit different.

Now I'm not saying that a RW will belly-up all the time, but she certainly will change over time in her new waters.

I'll be happy if the accent remains.

BC,
I hear you on this one, my friend.  My "science experiment" is now a Russian/California girl.  Kind of like a Babe Watch, er, Bay Watch girl with a Russian accent!  It works for me!
KenC

[IAmZon]

Gator,

Your comments always seems to be among the best.

YES,  I will go to Ukraine with NO expectations (but I do hope to find an exciting new world ... and about 100,000 pretty girls that will wink back at me.)

I have learned not to fall in love with a picture.  In fact, I have stopped writting to many of the girls I have formed "connections" with on dating sites since I have been receiving an eduction here.   I'll see them when I get there, or not.  How can I really care about a picture?!?! Especially with Agencies being what they are.

And I don't think one visit is anything more than an orientation.  I WILL NOT fall in love easily ... I will make a promise to all my friends that if I do they can kick me hard, right in the ass, twice!

I have made friends with a great Romanian girl here in the US.  She wants me to go with her to visit Romania.  She seems very serious to PROVE that Romanian girls are far better than Russian/Ukraine for me.  How could such an offer be a bad thing?

[Jumper]

Dont over romanticise RW or the culture.
lots of it is great, A lot of it not so great.

 Hopefully those same girls are winking back at you here, or there are other motives. its that simple.
 I hate generalizing but its all you can do on a forum like this--
Anyway RW are first and foremost (if we are generalizing) pragmatic
and decisive.Task oriented and generally single goal oriented.

(if thats to have a family and stabilty, then a lucky westen man might be just picked out for her puposes. lol and yes most often the RW is certainly doing the pickiung , marriage wise, despite the escapades of the guys here )

Most RW have higher self esteem than the average AW.
(and there are some GREAT AW)
 THATs the real allure to me.

Along with a decent level of self respect and self esteem,
 is that most any RW knows her value well, and is respected for knowing it.A certain degree of entitlement goes along with that.


 IMHO-
 RW are quite often fun, passionate,feminine ,appealing,intelligent or clever,  love being sexy, and quite warm on the outside,
but centered on cold hard interior *mr Spock* logic and pragmaticism,   with a strong inner resolve that would run over most *nice guys* , and easily survive a nuclear diasaster.


If one does truly fall in true love with you, then Mister you are in for it.


the guys that futilly  chase certain  RW do amaze me,
as if a RW cares about you, you WILL know it, in fact you wouldnt be able to shake her if you tried ..
but yes you would have been expected to win her heart in the first place!  that means effort on your part

 

[Bruce]

The real allure?  It has nothing to do with Russian women but with you .  Think about it.