What's wrong with you, Americans?

[Elen]

My father died many years ago but if you are asking what are my plans for my daughter are? Her future is not yet written and my plans for her future are my business and not open for discussion with the likes of you Elen.

Yes I meant your plans as father of a daughter. Pity you can say nothing on this subject because it always interesting to see how males's viewpoints at women's role in society and in marriage change on diametrically oppositу if they begin to speak about their own daughters. Your dreams about accredited university  and honor graduation just prove my "suspects"

My wife has become an excellent marksman and often competes along side of me in practical pistol combat matches, she dose not enjoy the high powered extreme range shooting (in excess of 1500 meters) because the rifles are too powerful for her to shoot comfortably but she dose enjoy skeet shooting. [/color][/font]

 

Okay, Okay I did understand already you wife completely shares ALL YOUR hobbies, ideas and interests (only wonder have she any "only" her ones at all?)

[acrzybear]

I am confused!! I am a reasonably intelligent person, but I have just one question

Just what the hell does this bickering have to do with the topic of this thread? I swear I've seen five year olds with more maturity, it's hard to believe the two of you are adults.

  I think this page should be renamed the Bickerson page. 

I will be signing off of this soap opera thread, you two continue with your feud. 

 

 

[Elen]

Ok Let return to the subject.

What are the viewpoints of such reasonably intelligent person like you about why Americans do have so many guns in their home? Is it a sigh of fear about life in paradise? Or what? And why do you need metal detectors and at the entrances of secondary schools and  gas spray cans in pockets of your teenagers ?

 

[Elen]

The list of "cases"
School Shootings Map and Descriptions from 1996 to 2003

http://www.svrc.net/ShootingsMap.htm

Does anybody exept me see this pic (or I failed with posting pics again?):?

[Bruno]

No problem Elen, i see your pic . Now, you don't need my help anymore .

[wxman]

Elen, I don't think any reaonable person can give you an answer. I'm just as confused as you are about all of this. I do not understand why children would go into a school with guns and kill each other. I don't understand why we have reached the point in our society where we have to have metal detectors at schools, security guards with guns, etc. When I was a child, I never had to worry about such things. I felt safe at school. Nobody else is at fault except us. Until we accept that we as the adults in our country are responsible for this major problem, the problem will only get worse. We unfortunatelty think that by putting more guards, metal detectors, etc we will solve the problem of children's safety. Solving a problem like that, is like using your finger to stop a leak in a dam. It may temporarily stop the leak, but it doesn't answer the question, "why is the dam leaking?"  

[Elen]

Elen, I don't think any reaonable person can give you an answer

I don't expect to get "answers" I just want to know your thoughts, why are your so "obsessive" with guns you keep in your homes, why are you "bragging" about you teaching your own children to shoot? do you think it would help them in the life?

[acrzybear]

Ok Let return to the subject.

What are the viewpoints of such reasonably intelligent person like you about why Americans do have so many guns in their home? Is it a sigh of fear about life in paradise? Or what? And why do you need metal detectors and at the entrances of secondary schools and  gas spray cans in pockets of your teenagers ?

 

 

 Two of the three guns I have are "owned" by the government and are issued by my agency, the third gun I carry because I like it better then the one issued to me.  One of the reasons Americans are so opposed to giving up their guns is our history, it is because of citizens owning rifles (the minutemen) that the United States was able to go against the British global empire and win (along with some luck) and "taming" the wild west (as if you could tame nature). 

Also compared to the majority of the European countries, the United States is a very young country and we are very spread out.  There are countries such as England, Russia, etc... where you have generations of families living in the same town and everyone knows each other.  Americans are a more transient society where families are spread out and it is not uncommon for people not to know their neighbors.  Now this is not set in stone, there are still small towns where people were born and grew up- but generally people move out from their parents around the age of 18.

Another reason I believe that we are having so many problems with children now days is that American society in general leaves the responsibility of teaching morals to the television.  Parents are so concerned with the child's self esteem and trying to be a friend instead of a parent.  My belief is that as a parent you should spend time with family and educate the children about values and respect.  You should be able to discipline your children and at the same time they should be able to talk to you and not be afraid to hug you. I do not have any children of my own and I know that this is easier said then done, yet when you bring a child into today's crazy world you have an obligation and responsibility to that child other then writing a check.

I know some folks here will have opinions that disagree with mine, but that is one of the great things about the United States of America - we have the first amendment which guarantees the right of free speech.  I may not agree with my government or its policies and I can voice that opinion in public without fear of going to prison, how many other countries can say that? 

Now I am not saying the United States is without fault, there are so many other countries with allot to offer and rich in history.  If I had to do an analogy I would say America is a teenager that usually tries to do the right thing, but does not always listen to its peers or elders.

Well that's about it in a nutshell, I'm not the final authority on this subject but I am very proud to be an American, but I also know that we can (and should) learn from others.

Well there you have it a honest answer from a simple guy, take it or leave the choice is yours:cool:


 

 

[wxman]

Elen, I don't think any reaonable person can give you an answer

I don't expect to get "answers" I just want to know your thoughts, why are your so "obsessive" with guns you keep in your homes, why are you "bragging" about you teaching your own children to shoot? do you think it would help them in the life?
[/quote]
There are people in every country that own guns, hunt etc.  Parents teach their kids to hunt in Russia too. I'm' sure some of the parents brag about it there too. So if there are no Russian children going to schools and killing, (yet), then the problem has to be elsewhere and not in the guns themselves. The problem is not just associated with the United States. People use guns to kill people all over the world. I'm sure there are children in your country that get associated with organized crime and have used guns to kill people. Look at Africa. Several nations are lawless and the rule of the gun is government. Same in parts of South America...former Yugoslavia and on and on. It's not just a western problem, but a world problem.  Why do terrorists attack a school in Russia and shoot children? Violence does not make sense, an no one country has the corner market on violence. It is more known when it happens in the United States because our media likes to make it look like a circus. If guns were eliminated, people would find other ways to kill. Some people are just plain evil. This isn't a new problem, Hitler slaughtered innocent millions with guns for German supremacy.  

 

[Elen]

so what we have? Bad history,weak ties with familieys after 18 ages, upbringing kids mostly with a help of TV shows, cocerning about only self esteem and little respect to "olders" and famous american free-speach (with suppoting your arguments with such perfect prove as gun)

Have I took  you right?

[Elen]

Of course pople kill each other all round the world but i n Africa, Yuogpslavia and Chehcnya that problem is more "understandable"  But such high level of violence in rich democratic country like America where every body has the egual opportunities for decerve life is just  a puzzle of "mysterious american soul" 

[wxman]

Of course pople kill each other all round the world but i n Africa, Yuogpslavia and Chehcnya that problem is more "understandable"  But such high level of violence in rich democratic country like America where every body has the egual opportunities for decerve life is just  a puzzle of "mysterious american soul" 

Ahh, but that's were the problem arises. We may by law have equal opportunities, but that is not always the case. America is unique because we are the "melting pot" with the most diverse culture in the world. That is both a strength and weakness. With a country full of ethnically diverse people, old bigotries come forward. We have people of all races who hate each other. There are some who hate black, who hate Hispanics, who hate whites, who hate Jews, Muslims, Irish, Russians, Catholics, Protestants and on an on. Someone once said, they do not understand how the United States can even function with so many different nationalities. But what they don't see is that the vast majority of Americans get along with each other. When something bad happens to Americans, we all work together like no other nation on this earth. We are proud of our cultural background and our ancestory, but more important we are proud to be Americans.

[Elen]

but more important we are proud to be Americans.

we see. Though very often you proud trasfers into a  desire to teach all other all round the the world how to live in american style

[wxman]

but more important we are proud to be Americans.

we see. Though very often you proud trasfers into a  desire to teach all other all round the the world how to live in american style
[/quote]Or how the old Soviet Empire wanted everyone to be communists.  We are not so much different after all. You can not understand American culture, and we can not understand Russian culture because we live where we are.

[Elen]

But you keep doing that till now and in more progressive way than when there was the USSR

[wxman]

But you keep doing that till now and in more progressive way than when there was the USSR

USSR was more direct, they physically occupied Poland, East Germany, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Afghanistan and others. The USA was more covert. We installed dictators under the disguise of democracy. Both were bad. Would the world be better off if neither of our countries existed? It seems our countries have caused a great bit a problems. 

[Bruno]

Ok, before shoot on me  i need to explain how it is where i live... in Europe...

About mix of nationality and culture, we are at the top... about weapon, we have not so much problem...

Why ? Only it is more difficult to buy weapon... you need a morality enquete, your need autorisation of your gourvernor, and the reglementation is very strong ( same at home, weapon need to be at a safe place closed with ammunition in other place )... some little rule can change a lot of thing...

When you have child at home, the first advice is make dangerous product ( toxic ) in a place that child cannot reach... why not the same with weapon and ammunition...

We have change our law and some US people begin ask the same... it is not the basic problem but education take time... and until people and child are not good educate, it is better prohibith weapon...

For myself, i was very surprised when i have visit London in UK, where the police ( bobby ) don't have gun... and the system is working...

[wxman]

Bruno, we won't shoot you.  What you say is common sense. Guns should be out of reach of children. Education is the first defense against mis use.

Unfortunately criminals in UK are starting use guns. They have no fear of the bobbies because they have no weapons. Criminals are criminals because they do not follow the law. They will buy weapons illegally and use them there just as they do here. 99% of Americans that have guns, do not use them to break law or kill other people. The ones that do, usually steal the guns so they can not be traced. We have many gun laws already in my country. Waiting periods, background checks, etc. But the criminals buy the guns illegally out of the trunk of a car or on the black market just like they do in Europe. 

 

[wxman]

Perhaps in my country we need tougher prison system that does not let these criminals out every few years so they can commit more crimes. They have it easy in prison with three hot meals a day, television, air conditioning, workout equipment etc. I think bringing the Russian Gulag system here would put some fear in these criminals.  

[Bruno]

Perhaps in my country we need tougher prison system that does not let these criminals out every few years so they can commit more crimes. They have it easy in prison with three hot meals a day, television, air conditioning, workout equipment etc. I think bringing the Russian Gulag system here would put some fear in these criminals.  

Maybe you have right... in some way, during the communiste time, criminality was enough low in russia... and now, with the new freedom, the stastitic about criminality in russia reach almost our western level... I think that the russian jail are the more bad in the world... but some bad guys who have already test it go think two time before begin again... our modern jail are more like hotel...

 

[Elen]

USSR was more direct, they physically occupied Poland, East Germany, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine , Afghanistan and others

Your definition to the word "occupation", please

and the historical date when such state like Ukraine appeared as well/

(it would be not much retorts about Aphgan's issue exept reminding it was America who gave such "thanks" like 9-11 from former Afghanistan's "friend")

[wxman]

USSR was more direct, they physically occupied Poland, East Germany, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine , Afghanistan and others

Your definition to the word "occupation", please

and the historical date when such state like Ukraine appeared as well/

(it would be not much retorts about Aphgan's issue exept reminding it was America who gave such "thanks" like 9-11 from former Afghanistan's "friend")
[/quote]They occupied these countries with a military force after WWII against the will of the people. Stalin who was a butcher and wanted to control all of eastern Europe. Please do not tell me that the Poles, the Czechs, the Romanians, Hungarians, East Germans and Bulgarians wanted the Russians there. The Russians made sure their brutal dictators ran those governments. Remember the Prague Spring Uprising of 1968? Do you remember the bloody Hungarian revolution of 1956? The Russian army crushed both uprisings and many died in Hungary.   We also cannot forget the millions of Ukrainians that were starved to death to feed Russia by Stalin.

[Elen]

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"I think that the russian jail are the more bad in the world... but some bad guys who have already test it go think two time before begin again.

 You see Bruno present "freedom" in Russian in manyy cases is worse for these guy than bad Russian prison. In Prisone they at least have food three time in a day and a roos above a head. And they know only one way to get all these on "freedom" - to steal something or to kill somebody.

In the USSR times our directors of factories and plants were obligated to hire such guys for give them second chance in life  and local police  was obligated to supervise these guys. ( as well as to have an eye at those who didn't work at all) Such "tyranic " strategy did help to low crime statistic. Now all are free about all obligations Everybody are just "happy":? ( and the amount of those who just "LIVE" in prisons in Russia is higher  than it was in whole USSR)

[Elen]

They occupied these countries with a military force after WWII against the will of the people

Oh Really?? Cirtainly we should leave the Easten Europe with all their Auschwitzes, Salaspils and Majdaneks, stop at our board and take a show how Germans'd turn their attention on England.

Once more the definition to the word "occupation" and its difference  to the word "military bases"

Please do not tell me that the Poles, the Czechs, the Romanians, Hungarians, East Germans and Bulgarians wanted the Russians there

I do tell you that there were people there in those times who do wanted. Beside we also didn't want americans bases there especially with your plans of nuclear bombs for our Russian cities.

Remember the Prague Spring Uprising of 1968? Do you remember the bloody Hungarian revolution of 1956?

Political banal events. You call such things as "protection of democracy" when your guys run shooting at streets at some  foriegn country. Want a list of them?

We also cannot forget the millions of Ukrainians that were starved to death to feed Russia by Stalin.

And I'm sure you do know the WHOLE story but not only the end. Though when I asked my qestions about these times at Ukraine in another thread  I got no answer.

I would try again if moderator DAN allows me to do that as he already showed me a "yellow card" for my political discussions on that board

[wxman]

From Ukrainian history books

"A Man-Made Famine raged through Ukraine, the ethnic-Ukrainian region of northern Caucasus, and the lower Volga River region in 1932-33. This resulted in the death of between 7 to 10 million people, mainly Ukrainians. This was instigated by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin and his henchman Lazar Kaganovich. The main goal of this artificial famine was to break the spirit of the Ukrainian farmer/peasant and to force them into collectivization. The famine was also used as an effective tool to break the renaissance of Ukrainian culture that was occuring under approval of the communist government in Ukraine. Moscow perceived this as a threat to a Russo-Centric Soviet rule and therefore acted to crush this cultural renaissance in a most brutal manner.

In 1932, the Soviets increased the grain procurement quota for Ukraine by 44%. They were aware that this extraordinarly high quota would result in a grain shortage, therefore resulting in the inability of the Ukrainian peasant to feed themselves. Soviet law was quite clear in that no grain could be given to feed the peasants until the quota was met. Communist party officials with the aid of military trrops and NKVD secret police units were used to move against peasants who may be hiding grain from the Soviet government. Even worse, an internal passport system was implemented to restrict movements of Ukrainian peasants so that they could not travel in search of food. Ukrainian grain was collected and stored in grain elevators that were guarded by military units & NKVD secret police units while Ukrainians were starving in the immediate area. The actions of this Moscow instigated action was a deliberate act of genocide against the Ukrainian peasant."

But of course this can not be true because the Russians were the Saviors of the world.