With, or without children. A HUGE question

[IAmZon]

[ Important history about ME:  I met a beautiful AW when I was 27. She was 30. She was in the beginning of a divorce and with two children - 10 and 8.  I liked her very much, and her me.  I saw the RED flags all over the place.  But I decided I was "big" enough to handle these kind of life challenges with a mate.  We were together 13 years.  In hindsight, her baggage (the children, her ex, her parents -  blamed me - even through therapy etc...) was enormous.  It overwhelmed me!  Things became more stable over time.  But the beauty, the deep love and connection that I wanted from a "family" never really developed as I would have liked. ]

So, now I am single again. I am 42, and look about the same as I did when I was 32.  I am in much better physical shape now then I was then.  My finances are sound; moreover, I enjoy a flexible lifestyle and schedule. Perhaps most of all, I am mature: patient; understanding; and thoughtful (things I was not in my youth). 

As I have gotten used to being single again (it took some time) I am surprised with the amount of choices I enjoy ... here in the US and abroad.

There are significant challenges associated with finding a foreign wife.  If the lady has a child it would increase the challenges ... I think.  So my question:

Do you think I am wise, or foolish, in selecting ONLY women who have NO children in which to meet?

[jb]

Do you think I am wise, or foolish, in selecting ONLY women who have NO children in which to meet?

Not so much foolish as maybe unwise in eliminating so many really wonderful, and more mature, women from the contest.  There are things you need to understand about Russian child rearing, culturally. You know the Russian National symbol is the Russian Bear, right?  Think of the "Bear" when you imagine a Russian mother and her offspring. 

You already know the hazards of step-parenting.  That said, a lot depends on the child. Sex, age, and attitude are important considerations.  Babies and very young kids present no real problems. A young boy of 12 or 13 is prolly going to be more than you want, while a girl of the same age will be trying to get your attention and competing with her mother.  That could get interesting.

I have two step-sons who are now both adult, it was a task filled with challenges, but I felt it was well worth the effort.  The eldest was already at University so he and I have always been men friends.   My youngest was just 13 when we met, at first he was in rebellion, then we became friends, later we got to be real pals, now that he's about to graduate University, I've become his advisor.  So we have gone through the whole gamut of emotional experience.  I'm glad I have the boys, because if I had ruled out a woman because of children, I'd have missed out on the very best woman in the world.

[Turboguy]

I noticed on Jack's tour that both my son and one other tour member started the tour with the idea, absolutely no children.  Both changed over the course of meeting women.   They found the choices were much better if they were willing to accept a woman with a child. 

American men are much more willing to accept someone else's child and to think of them like their own than are FSU men.  Women without children have many more options both with FSU men and AM.

As it turned out my son found the one he was most attracted to and had the best chemistry with was a gal with a two year old son.   I will add a side note here that in the last two LRT that my son was in both woman had a child or children and while they were together he became very attached to the children.  It made breaking up that much harder because he lost not only the woman but the kids.   He did not want to go through that again.

[Michelangelo]

...if I had ruled out a woman because of children, I'd have missed out on the very best woman in the world.

Beautifully expressed, JB.  And a big nugget of truth for men searching for their soulmate.

[Gator]

Rivardco,

This site has something called "search".  Many subjects have been discussed repeatedly.  This is one of them:

"Woman with Child - Advice Needed"

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2966.0

Much depends upon you.  Whether you want a ready made family or not.  Whether you want your own natural children (better do it soon).  Many of the FSUW listed with marriage agencies are single moms who have had a bad experience with their child's father and they seek a good family man, one who would love them and their child.

Evaluate each woman independently of her children.  If you do pursue women with children, you will need to spend a lot of time with the mama and the child.  A family trip to Turkey is fun in the summer.

 

[Bruce]

Good points from posters above.  However, you would be stepping into an instant family situation.  You would have increased expenses immediately. 

More importantly, the big question you have to ask yourself is if the woman really is into you or into saving her children?  Will she ever love you as much as her children?  Is there increased readiness to use you as a mule to save her children?  I think the answer to the three immediate questions above usually is yes.  Would she want to have any children with you?  The answer to all of these questions is very important of course.  Do you want to have children and or additional children?  That ultimately is the most important question for you.

My advice to all is to pick a woman without children whenever possible.  If however, you know yourself, what you want, what you need and what you prefer and a woman with child / children fits your fancy, go for her  .

[Turboguy]

I think everyone has made some good points here.  I think something similar to, has been said on the added expense issue.  If you can't afford the added expense should you really be here at all.

When I was in the searching mode my own feelings on it were that I did not rule out women with children becuase if I found someone I really loved that was what was most important to me.   I did have a preference for either younger children or older children.   I felt with younger children you had more time to really bond and feel like they were virutally your own and with older ones it would not be long before they were gone.  My feelings were sort of that with a 16 year old they might turn into good friends for you but they would always be your wife's child to some degree.  With the older children it would not be all that long until they were off on their own life so if there were difficulties they would pass with time.

[Bruce]

One thing about children is that since we've had one I found that expenses are about the same.  Why?  For the most part we are only spending for the child.  There is little time and little signifcant need to spend on ourselves.  The single guy has to start thinking like that if gets a woman with a little child.  I am not sure the average long single guy can instantly switch his usual mode of thinking and when push comes to shove selfishness easily can swing into play.

[Gator]

Bruce wrote,...the big question you have to ask yourself is if the woman really is into you or into saving her children?  Will she ever love you as much as her children?  Is there increased readiness to use you as a mule to save her children?  I think the answer to the three immediate questions above usually is yes.

Bruce, three very sweeping conclusions, and I am in total disagreement.  Nevertheless, you are not alone in your overall feeling.  Most Russian men will not accept another man’s child.   Most American men probably feel the same even though your three conclusions have little to do with this preference.

Let me examine your conclusions in reverse order.  For the purposes of this discussion, I am assuming what I consider the typical scenario:  1) short courtship, 2) a sincere woman with no prior plans to divorce ASAP, and 3) who may not be in love with the man but marries in good faith in the hope of love.  A “bad” woman is a train wreck with or without a child.     

Mothers are more Prone to use You as a Mule

I think the opposite. A mother with a young child will be more dependent upon you for help.  If she were childless, she easily could leave, get a job and take care of herself.  With a child her expenses are more and she has less time to earn income.  She needs you whether or not she loves you.  Having said that, Maxx’s infamous wife had a child.

Love You as Much as her Children

Love for a man is different than love of her child.  It is not a “zero sum” equation, meaning love for a child does not reduce her capacity to love her man.  I agree that she will not lay out in front of a tank to save her man as she would for her children (when they are children).  Given time, if the husband has what it takes she could love him as much as she could love any man. 

Saving Her Child or Into You

For obvious reasons the RW with children have a smaller choice of men.  Does this mean these RW are desperate?  Some for sure, and moreso than a RW without children.  Are they starving?  Probably not because their families will likely help support them. You can be sure that the RW recognizes that she made a mistake with the RM and she does not want to repeat it.  She probably understands that the love her RM professed, or the love she felt, was not true love so she may be disillusioned somewhat about love.  And her family is also questioning her along the same line. There is no room for blind, carefree emotions; rather she considers questions such as:   Can I depend upon the new man?  Will he be a caring step-father?  So she may not get into you as quickly as another woman, but she can over time.  Many of the single Moms are strong women; most I met had initiated the divorce even knowing that money would be a problem. 

If I had ignored women with children I would have missed  two fantastic women who have been a central part of my life for the past 4 years.

Some of the married men who post here have married a FSUW with a young child.  Men like Jet have a much better feel for this than me.

Bruce, I will agree that kids are expensive .  It starts the day they arrive and it seems to never end (thinking about my 22-yo son still at home).

[jb]

Well said, Bucky.

The challenges of step-parenting are huge, if you don't feel up to it, then don't mess around with women who have a kid.  From personal experience I would say it's harder on the kid than on the adults.  Little ones who desperately want a father figure in the house fall in love much more quickly than does the mom and possible dad.  It really tough on the kids when things don't work out between b/f and g/f,,, 'cause the kid is already spinning a fantasy in their minds about the new life where everything is roses.

[Bruce]

Gator, you make excellent counter arguments to what I believe is fairly intuitive.  Just because my points are intuitive of course does not make them right.  Still, I strongly disagree with your points #2 and #3. 

As far as number 1:

"Mothers are more Prone to use You as a Mule

I think the opposite. A mother with a young child will be more dependent upon you for help.  If she were childless, she easily could leave, get a job and take care of herself.  With a child her expenses are more and she has less time to earn income.  She needs you whether or not she loves you.  Having said that, Maxx’s infamous wife had a child."

Great argument for the opposite, which of course probably is true in some of the cases.   However, once she is here in the land of domestic violence, social services and the mommy (Russian mommy) network she will quickly see how trivial a man could be to her and her child's survival.

#2 I disagree with you, though of course it is a case by case basis.  It depends on knowing the women and knowing how well you will be able to love the other mans, and your new wife's child for the Westerner.  Some guys just refuse to accept the responsibility for another guys child.

#3 


"Saving Her Child or Into You

For obvious reasons the RW with children have a smaller choice of men.  Does this mean these RW are desperate?  Some for sure, and moreso than a RW without children.  Are they starving?  Probably not because their families will likely help support them. You can be sure that the RW recognizes that she made a mistake with the RM and she does not want to repeat it.  She probably understands that the love her RM professed, or the love she felt, was not true love so she may be disillusioned somewhat about love.  And her family is also questioning her along the same line. There is no room for blind, carefree emotions; rather she considers questions such as:   Can I depend upon the new man?  Will he be a caring step-father?  So she may not get into you as quickly as another woman, but she can over time.  Many of the single Moms are strong women; most I met had initiated the divorce even knowing that money would be a problem." 

You did not really answer the question if she is saving her child or into you.  You state that she has a smaller choice of men, has increased desperation, that she probably is disillusioned with love, that her family probably is taking care of her, that she will have a lot of questions.  I'd say at least sometimes, she has no family support.  Sometimes she is very disillusioned but sees a foreigner as a way out of her life's mess.  Talk about a white knight syndrome and looking for fantasy.  Is this the kind of woman thats stable and that the average guy should be looking for?  I think not.  I see this woman more as much more likely to fancy the Westerner for purely economic, shrewd, calculating reasons.  It fits into Max's situation as well as Golden's recent plight detailed on this board as well. 

Look, it has to be taken on a case by case basis.  Once a woman is really over her first RM who left her with child / children for whatever reasons and if she has good character and is able to clean her heart, then she will be open to a Western man. 

If the man has it in his heart to accept a woman with child (a big hearted guy like Jet etc.) then he will have as far as I have seen more gorgeous available women than he otherwise would have if he just looked for the still single.  The older the still single female population gets the more likely they have their own, problems such as looks, psychological etc. that a guy will have to deal with anyway.

One other thing I failed to mention that is not only intuitive but well proven is that a woman who is divorced once is statistically more likely to divorce again (same with us).  Each divorce increases the chance of a succeeding divorce, and none of us like the BBD mentality.  Just ask Max and Golden.

[Gator]

Bruce,
It is a dull day so far at RWD so I will revisit this.

I think you are one of the many men that JB so aptly described:

The challenges of step-parenting are huge, if you don't feel up to it, then don't mess around with women who have a kid.

And as JB wisely noted, it is the child who suffers. 

You know yourself well enough to know that that you do not want another man’s child.  Nothing wrong with that, and you probably are in the majority.  Nevertheless, I think it is disingenuous to rationalize that single Moms can not love you the way you want to be loved and they are more likely to dump you.   This is unfounded, and possibly could sway a newbie on the fence.

I will give you a hard fact:  I was involved with a single RW mom for three years and none of your three arguments were true. 

We broke up one year ago because of our age difference, and she made a point to date men only in their 30s.  Many men corresponded with her yet few came, and she felt it was because of her daughters.   All who did meet her wanted to spend more time with her.  One has asked her to marry him.  This man is in his mid-30s, good looking, and makes the big bucks.  He essentially could attract any RW, but he chose her with her kids.  Why not:  she is incredibly beautiful, intelligent, personable, honest, good character, sense of humor, educated, classy, athletic, lively … you name it ….qualities one can only dream about.  If he had discounted her because of her children, he would have settled for a lesser woman.  Besides, the two kids are fantastic and I have continued to stay in touch with them.

A second hard fact:  My current girlfriend.  She is 41 with two children, a teenager and a 7-yo.  Her age and young boy frightened away most men.  So I come along.  Does she jump onto me?  No.  She has an acceptable life in Russia and she even had a wealthy mid-40s RM who wants to marry her.  Such RM have a string of 20-somethings and not a 41-yo with a child.  That speaks much about her, fantastic qualities that many men never attempted to discover.  The only problem, I am having trouble winning her heart.  I have the inside track but she is a challenge. 

[jb]

It's true, like the age difference question, this is a subject that gets debated with some regularity, I did consider this a topic for inclusion in the FAQ section when I was constructing there.  However I ruled it out because I didn't think there is a real answer to the question that can be stated in fairly black and white terms.

As Bruce pointed out, child rearing is enormously expensive, with the costs just continually spiraling upward as the child's needs expand.  I can personally attest to the cost of a university education these days, had I not been a high wage earner with considerable savings assets I probably could not have afforded to marry a woman with kids.  During the dating phase I thought buying an airfare every 3-4 months was expensive,,, little did I realize how bad it was really going to get. 

Having been there and done it, this is perhaps the main reason why I have acquired such a poor reputation as a doom and gloom'er.  Whenever we get the inevitable newbie question about; "how possible is it to find my dream girl in the FSU?", and upon further exploring, find the newbie is a low wage earner living payday to payday with almost no money in the bank, without significant prospects, without ample vacation days, etc., this is the kind of man I discourage from the pursuit.  It's just too hard to do this on a shoestring budget.  Not only does the man come out of the chute on the other end a lot poorer, but the hopes and aspirations of the FSU woman get soundly thrashed as well.  Or, in some cases the Rah-Rah cheerleaders are simply encouraging another member of the 95%'ers who will wind up never making the trip.

If you throw a child into the mix, things really get bleak for some poor guy with a big heart and a small wallet.  I just happen to think it is a better, and kinder, policy to portray the potholes and roadblocks as honesty as possible.  Leading some poor sap down a rosy garden path only to have him get slapped on side the head by the reality of the real world is a form of cruelty I just can't participate in.

[jb]

It is a dull day so far at RWD so I will revisit this.

Boy Howdy~!  Ain't that the truth.  It's rare day that I post anything serious and semi-controversial and not get taken to task by at least three of my tormentors.  Where the hell is the 5th column today?

[Turboguy]

OK, jb, only because it has been a slow day and to celebrate my promotion to "official tormentor of jb". 

You are making a big deal about the cost of child rearing and the cost of education.   I won't argue with if someone can't afford the process they should not be in the persuit.  Yes, it can lead to a lot of disappointment on both sides.  Personally I think if they can afford the process they can afford the child.

Still as far as the cost of raising a child, I see people on welfare that manage to raise a half dozen of them.  Maybe not to the standards you and I would expect but not including college the costs to raise children seem affordable to most Americans.  I doubt the cost of raising a child born in the FSU would be much different.

As far as eduction most American kids who want an eduction seem to be able to find a way to pay for it.  There are scholarships, pell grants, student loans and of course part time jobs. 

I think the biggest issue is really if someone is able to accept someone else's child and treat them like their own.  Some are, some aren't.

[jb]

There are scholarships, pell grants, student loans and of course part time jobs.

By Gawd~! Somehow I just knew T/G would show up with another load of happy horse hocky.  All those wonderful aids to education you mention are not usually available to non-US citizen born individuals.  Be born outside the US and you are fcuked for monetary aid to a university education, unless you are in a refugee status.  That doesn't apply here.  Please research your rebuttal a bit better before taking me on.  I stated, I've been there, and done it, I know from which I speak.

[Son of Clyde]

If the average child of a RW is like my stepson, he will challenge you at every turn. He is used to being the man of the house and his mom relied upon him for many things. An older child is not likely to want to relinquish this role and may want to be the second adult in the household. There can only be one male adult in the family unit. You need to give the child a feeling of still being a part of the family but you have to let him know there is but one male parental figure, not two. This is the biggest challenge to face. It can be a real struggle.

[Turboguy]

Well, it has been a slow day and I am a little bored today jb.  I have not researced it but I would think that some of those would depend on citizenship status more than where they were born.  Still there are part time jobs, affordable state colleges, jr colleges, and options for anyone wanting an education.

[jb]

affordable state colleges, jr colleges, and options for anyone wanting an education.

Have you been asleep for the past 25 years?  Junior colleges are a joke, State colleges charge astronomical rates for non-citizen students, (non-resident rates), private schools are worse.  $25,000 per year is not out of the ball park, only the very rich can afford such tuition.

[GalinaF]

All those wonderful aids to education you mention are not usually available to non-US citizen born individuals.  Be born outside the US and you are fcuked for monetary aid to a university education, unless you are in a refugee status.  That doesn't apply here.  .... I stated, I've been there, and done it, I know from which I speak.

As soon as a child receives his Green Card, he can fill out his FAFSA application and receive exactly the same package (Stafford loan(s), Pell Grant, scholarship (s), etc.) as any American citizen.  A refugee status is not needed to get financial aid. My daughter (K-2 visa) received financial aid, so I speak from personal experience.

[jb]

My step sons did the same thing, and were refused, because I, the sponsor,  had too much money.  They were non-citizens, end of story.  So, like it or not, I had to pay.

[Turboguy]

Well since we are talking about people who are not rolling in money then having too much money should not be a problem. 

Heck, too bad I didn't know you then jb.  I would have been happy to take your excess money so you could qualify. 

[jb]

LOL, it doesn't take very much money to not qualify for welfare.  Just own a goodly percentage of your home and have a few bucks in the bank and you don't meet their requirements. 

[Turboguy]

I have seen people qualify for Pell grants and student loans who owned thier own homes and had decent jobs.   I don't really believe those are considered welfare.   The are more ways to try to help education be atainable for average people which is the type we are talking about  her.

[Gator]

There are other options:
1.   Marry a woman who has earning abilities and do it the old fashioned way – save money.
2.   Marry a woman whose child has superior intelligence and could earn a merit scholarship.  In the cold war era, the Soviet science community certainly gave us concerns notwithstanding the fact that they had a smaller economic base.  Their genes were inherited.
3.   Marry a woman whose child has superior athletic skills and could earn an athletic scholarship (not as difficult for a female) (I know one woman whose son is second best basketball player in Moscow for his age and is invited expense-free to play in tournaments outside Moscow and soon outside Russia).
4.   Marry a woman whose child has the personality and innate entrepreneurial intelligence to succeed without a university education (met one of those too, although at 7-yo the jury is still out).