Religion in Ukraine...

[Kuna]

Gents,

Don't take offence at this... but RWD is a great place to discuss stereotypes.   

One of the girls I'll meet in Ukraine casually mentioned that I should call after noon last weekend because her and her mother go to church on Sundays.

I sent an email today prompting some discussion on religion, but I'd be interested in hearing any stereotypes (or opinions) anyone might have on a religious girl in Ukraine.  (Come on mir.. shock me with some wisdom!)   

I'm of a protestant faith, but I don't go to church regularly.  I'm not opposed to it (or anything) unless it is an obsession.

Anyone dated a religious girl?

Should I expect her to be overly conservative? (Doesn't seem it so far)

I'm not expecting her to be a natural fit for the "religious right" in the US...  but it seems "rather" old fashioned.

Editors note:  No offence was meant to any members of RWD who might also be from the "religious right" or anyone else who is steadfast in their refusal to partake in pigeon-holing girls we've never met.   

Kuna

[DKMM]

My experience,

If you aren't too hardcore on the protestant thing, you won't find anything about orthodoxy disagreeable.

One girl I saw in Moscow was fairly into her religion but she didn't come close to being very zealous.  I don't think any girl who isn't a nun there will be what you are used to seeing when it comes to the hardcore religious protestants.

Personally I'd have no problems getting baptized into orthodoxy if it meant something to my future wife.  I think its are actually kinda cool because its not so dogmatic and has a very interesting history.

YMMV.

[Mir]

Well, well, you really are like a little boy in a sweatshop. Not able to decide which one to pick first and how long to enjoy it.
I think you have been given good advise from seasoned veterans and I have little to add except to reinforce that go with an open mind and expect that if you feel something good with one of the girls you would have to return (in summer as it is much nicer then) to spend time with her.
Regarding religion, well I always ask beforehand. Personally I am agnostic and I tell this to any girl I correspond with. I ask then if they are very religious etc. Once you have such information you can decide if you could get along. I mean if the girl says she is deeply religious and cannot tolerate anyone who isn’t then there is no point in meeting her. I feel that the girl you are concerned about is not likely to be religious even if she goes to church on Sunday.

[Kuna]

Well, well, you really are like a little boy in a sweatshop. Not able to decide which one to pick first and how long to enjoy it.
I think you have been given good advise from seasoned veterans and I have little to add except to reinforce that go with an open mind and expect that if you feel something good with one of the girls you would have to return (in summer as it is much nicer then) to spend time with her.
Regarding religion, well I always ask beforehand. Personally I am agnostic and I tell this to any girl I correspond with. I ask then if they are very religious etc. Once you have such information you can decide if you could get along. I mean if the girl says she is deeply religious and cannot tolerate anyone who isn’t then there is no point in meeting her. I feel that the girl you are concerned about is not likely to be religious even if she goes to church on Sunday.

Ahhhhh Mir... a gem again...  I'm happy you never fail to please!

Your response is predictable, but still humourous.

I hope other people here get as big a chuckle out of you posts as I do...

So many serious topics are raised in here yet I can always rely on you for some uninteintional humour.

Cheers, and big kisses!

Kuna

[SANDRO43]

I'm of a protestant faith, but I don't go to church regularly.  I'm not opposed to it (or anything) unless it is an obsession.

Depends on whether you consider standing up for some 3 consecutive hours during their Mass an an obsession. Perhaps you should include an extra item in your paclking list .

[ScottinCrimea]

What you haven't told us is what religion she is.  Whether she is Orthodox, Jehovah's Witness, Pentacostal, Mormon, etc makes a big difference in how it will affect your relationship.  Since the opening up of the FSU's t freedom of religion, there has been a big surge of new religions into the area and you can no longer assume that everyone is Russian Orthodox.

[Kuna]

Scott,

I don't know her exact religion and it only came up in a conversation last weekend when she said it was best if I call after noon because her and her mother go to church on Sundays.

Since then I looked back at her profile and all it says against religion is "Christian" so I guess it could be anything???

I've asked her in an email this weekend a little more about church and her religion so I can find out how important it is to her and what influence it might have on her.

I'm neither opposed nor in favour of regular church attendance, and I'd be happy to attend church regularly (Depending on the church) in future if that was a part of a relationship I was in... I just don't do it at the moment.

My only concern would be if religion had SUCH a big influence that she was ultra-conservative.

Kuna

[jb]

Kuna,

Regards religion, if your g/f is a serious Orthodox believer she will probably not want to attend Sunday services in a protestant church, you might have to make some concessions about that.  You might locate a Church near you and drop in for a Sunday Mass just to scope it out.  Do not make the assumption that all Orthodox Churches are the same, there are differences between the Greek Orthodox and the Russian.  However, they are still very close to the Roman Catholic and of course both were a part of the Roman Church until the schism which occurred in 1050-90,  As noted up thread, in recent years some of the more fundamental religions have made a few inroads in parts of the FSU.  Those, IMHO, would be the ones to shy clear of.  Some of them get downright wacky.

If you get hooked up with a girl who loves her religion I'd suggest that you stick with an Orthodox girl.  The Russian Orthodox Church is liberal enough that they don't try to control people outside of the Church on Sunday.  There is less likelyhood of church interference in your daily lives with an Orthodox girl than with one of the "holy roller" types.

Just my .02 cents.

[Turboguy]

First off the odd are overwhelming that she is Orthodox.  Most other religions barely have their little toe in the door. 

I have not dated a highly religious gal from the FSU.  I have written to one or two.  I am fairly sure if your gal was in this category you would know it now.  She would already be spouting bible verses in her letters and trying to save your soul. 

Most of the gals I have written to are not very religious.  My guess is that it will not be a problem for you.

[corp]

If this lady goes to Church "every sunday", I find her to be rare, in fact I found most Orthodox ... if they attend regularly to go on various days of the week and not only "every Sunday".

 Let me guess that your lady friend is from Middle to western Ukraine?
 This is a topic I often explore and while I am aware of a few church going ladies (weekly,... not just holidays) in Kiev, there are very few in the whole of Eastern Ukraine that I have been aware of.
Since I am of Christian faith and it is important in my life, I seek out someone whose Faith is consistent in their life.
The truth is many (most) Orthodox girls place as much relevance in the zodiac as they Do in Christ. (just a broad statement).

That being said, I have been aware of some Orthodox  wives who upon arrival to a new Country, really begin to explore and grow their religion much to the husbands dismay.
(shrine in the house).
If your lady friend does not workout for you and she is under 35, she might be someone I would write to

[Mir]

If she is from Western Ukraine she could belong to Greek Catholic faction.This is an amalgam of Catholic beliefs that the Polish rulers tried to enforce and the Orthodox religion folowed by majority of Slavs.So Sunday service is most important to them and they celebrate Christmas on 25th December rather then 7th January.Also if she is from a village (or her mother is) they could have taken rituals and beliefs from the pagan religions practiced before Christianity.

[Kuna]

If this lady goes to Church "every sunday", I find her to be rare, in fact I found most Orthodox ... if they attend regularly to go on various days of the week and not only "every Sunday".

 Let me guess that your lady friend is from Middle to western Ukraine?
 This is a topic I often explore and while I am aware of a few church going ladies (weekly,... not just holidays) in Kiev, there are very few in the whole of Eastern Ukraine that I have been aware of.
Since I am of Christian faith and it is important in my life, I seek out someone whose Faith is consistent in their life.
The truth is many (most) Orthodox girls place as much relevance in the zodiac as they Do in Christ. (just a broad statement).

That being said, I have been aware of some Orthodox  wives who upon arrival to a new Country, really begin to explore and grow their religion much to the husbands dismay.
(shrine in the house).
If your lady friend does not workout for you and she is under 35, she might be someone I would write to

corp,

As for it being a rarity...  I agree, I was a little surprised but not put off.  I believe it is every weekend though she's done nothing to suggest it's more than that.  

She lives in a city on the Dnepro so I'm guessing that's classed as "dead centre".

As for passing on her details if we don't click...  You'll have to remind me when I get back in February but she's the "pick of the bunch" at the moment for me.

You probably wouldn't like her anyway...  Great conversations, lots of laughter, very cheeky (playful), always asks insightful questions and answers my questions after obviously putting a lot of thought into a topic.  Oh, there's this "problem" too with her incredibly beautiful face, piercing blue eyes and stunning bright smile.  

Kuna

[Mir]

'You probably wouldn't like her anyway...  Great conversations, lots of laughter, very cheeky (playful), always asks insightful questions and answers my questions after obviously putting a lot of thought into a topic.  Oh, there's this "problem" too with her incredibly beautiful face, piercing blue eyes and stunning bright smile.'

And you have not even met her yet,my word!!

Anyway looks like the Ausies are in for a though one this time 

[jb]

Mir,

I suggest you lighten up on our AU fellows, these guys are as much a member of our "Band of Brothers" here as you are.  How about giving him some slack?

[Kuna]

'You probably wouldn't like her anyway...  Great conversations, lots of laughter, very cheeky (playful), always asks insightful questions and answers my questions after obviously putting a lot of thought into a topic.  Oh, there's this "problem" too with her incredibly beautiful face, piercing blue eyes and stunning bright smile.'

And you have not even met her yet,my word!!

Anyway looks like the Ausies are in for a though one this time 

Ahhhh Mir... Thanks for your contribution again. 

You remind me of one of those ugly parents on the sideline of a children's football game, screaming abuse and acting like an expert even though he never made the team when he was growing up.  (No overt offence intended, but you're welcome to take it that way if you'd like).

If you've ever got a question for me I'd also welcome that... might make a nice change from the heckling.

A question for you...

What could make it a tough time? 

A holiday in a place I've never been...  visiting the hometowns of parents and grandparents... some "dates" with girls that I know a little about (but am certain to find out much more about beforehand, and while I'm there) and an adventure that most people would never have the opportunity to experience.

I think I have MUCH more chance of disappointment after my June trip because that's the one I would expect a higher level of commitment to be developed with someone I might meet on this trip.

Have a good day champ!

 

Kuna

[Mir]

Hahaha, well most of the spectators think they are experts and have never played test cricket themselves.
And yes I was talking about the Australian cricket team having a tough time in the test.
Regarding your travels it is the other EXPERTS who are predicting tough time for you.Personally I think you will have a great time.

As for myself and Ukraine, well I am not an expert at all but I have visited the country a few times. And yes I have met/dated a few women there as well.
Here is a photo from Sevastopol harbour.

[Mir]

Interestingly like you I did not travel to Ukraine to meet women(at least not initially). I went there to develop an educational cum charity project with the Bogomoletz University medical school in Kiev and because of my fondness for Mikhail Bulgakov who practiced in Kiev as a doctor before moving to Moscow and becoming a writer.

At the door of Bulgakov's house

[Kuna]

Hahaha, well most of the spectators think they are experts and have never played test cricket themselves.
And yes I was talking about the Australian cricket team having a tough time in the test.
Regarding your travels it is the other EXPERTS who are predicting tough time for you.Personally I think you will have a great time.

As for myself and Ukraine, well I am not an expert at all but I have visited the country a few times. And yes I have met/dated a few women there as well.
Here is a photo from Sevastopol harbour.

Right on winder!  Of course that's what you meant.

Mir,  I don't mind your criticism because you may blurt out some piece of rubbish that just keeps me on my toes.  All I'll ask is that if and when you criticise me you're man enough to defend your statements, not try to deflect it like a boy.

Have a good day!

Kuna

[Mir]

Hmmm
When I do criticize you I will defend it OK....If I was saying you will have a tough time I would write:'The Aussie and not The Aussies.....
I think you are upset cause we scored over 500 this time. and it gets better,Hayden just got out

[Kuna]

Mir,

I'm not going to debate you in here because the rest of the members hardly need to see my frustration with you.  Anyone who wants to read any of your recent replies to me can quite easily do so.

If you'd like to discuss the cricket perhaps Odds and Ends might be the best place to do it. 

Kuna

[corp]

corp,

As for it being a rarity...  I agree, I was a little surprised but not put off.  I believe it is every weekend though she's done nothing to suggest it's more than that.  

She lives in a city on the Dnepro so I'm guessing that's classed as "dead centre".

As for passing on her details if we don't click...  You'll have to remind me when I get back in February but she's the "pick of the bunch" at the moment for me.

You probably wouldn't like her anyway...  Great conversations, lots of laughter, very cheeky (playful), always asks insightful questions and answers my questions after obviously putting a lot of thought into a topic.  Oh, there's this "problem" too with her incredibly beautiful face, piercing blue eyes and stunning bright smile.  

Kuna

Kuna now you are making me jealous
She sounds like a winner, but sometimes someone you have less confidence during the letter writing phase can really shines "face to face"  so keep your mind open and
I wish you good luck my friend!

[jb]

corp,

Just out of curiosity, do you mind sharing with us what Church or denomination you subscribe to? 

The reason I ask is that in my experience, men who make a point of seeking only a "Christian" woman are usually members of some relatively strong Protestant faith.   If you are a member of this kind of religion, such as the Mormon LDS Church, or one of the more fundamentalist sects, then I would caution you on the subject of trying to convert a strong Orthodox believer.   Very often this is an act of mixing oil and water. 

If you are a Roman Catholic then you won't have too much trouble getting her comfortable in your Church since they are much alike.  About the only difference is the odd wording and punctuation of dogma and creed, but they read basically the same.  Even the Mass is very similar with the exception of the typical short, multiple, 1 hour, "low" Masses being the Sunday norm in most Catholic Sunday services, the Orthodox Church does but one Sunday service and it is always the long, draw out, "High" mass we normally see only on religious feast days.  A Roman Catholic could stumble into an Orthodox Church by mistake and not see much he doesn't understand, while, I daresay, the typical Protestant would understand none of it. 

I know of the dangers of discussing religion on this board and I'm being careful not to lean too much on the "why's" and "what's" of any specific Church, only to make people aware that the strong Orthodox believer may not be a good fit with the strong Protestant believer. 

[Gator]

JB,

You are wise in many subjects and religion seems to be another one.  So I wonder if you could satisfy my curiosity about a few questions:


-   Very few of the RW I have met were what I would call “religious” yet many wore a cross necklace as did some of their children. Why?  My ex-fiancée never went to church and wore a cross, something she did not get from her heathen mother. 
-   If masses are so long in the Orthodox Church, why are there no seats?  Do the “members” wander in and out for an abbreviated experience?
-    Only one RW asked me about Orthodox churches in my city.  I replied no Russian churches but a few Greek churches.  She said they were acceptable but not a Catholic church.  If I attended services again, I would choose a church because of the “pastor/preacher/priest” and his philosophy and style.  Would this be improbable with such a RW?
-   Two years ago, my fiancée and I wandered onto an orthodox wedding with monks and/or priests singing.  The acoustics in those small Byzantine arches and domes were phenomenal.  I asked my fiancée about getting married in a Russian Church.  She replied that it was sacra religious and that the priest would not perform it unless he knew us.  Is this true? 


Now in the category of “Can You Top This!”

It was1988 and four major events coincided during my visit with Dutch embassy friends residing in Moscow:

-  Under Gorbachev the Orthodox Church had started its revival. 
-  The Church was celebrating the 1000th year of Christianity in Russia (Prince Vladimir, etc.).
-  I observed an Easter service with Priests/Monks chanting and overflowing crowds of worshippers.
-  My friend (Catholic) introduced me to a priest who gave me a big Russian bear hug and presented me a decorated egg (goose egg, wax decoration translated as 1000 years of Christ).

It was a moving experience, even for a wretched soul like me, who did not understand a word and has not visited a church as an adult except for weddings and sightseeing.  Nevertheless, I am permanently imprinted with the “love and forgiveness” doctrine from having been raised a Southern Baptist.

[jb]

Gator,

-   Very few of the RW I have met were what I would call “religious” yet many wore a cross necklace as did some of their children. Why?  My ex-fiancée never went to church and wore a cross, something she did not get from her heathen mother.

I think most Russians today are the product of 70+ years of government sponsored atheism.  Their current religious background is laid upon very shaky foundations.  They don't have the tradition of religion within the family structure that we see in the West.  The wearing of the cross on a necklace became an item of some fashion chic after Gorby lifted official sanctions against the Church in about 1988.  By 1990 there were already some of the more famous landmark Churches undergoing reconstruction, strictly for show in most cases, as it was being done with lots of government money because the Russian Church was flat broke at that time.

-   If masses are so long in the Orthodox Church, why are there no seats?  Do the “members” wander in and out for an abbreviated experience?

The faithful stand or kneel for the entire Mass,  I think the thought is that one should suffer a little for being a sinner. Going to Church should remind one of his place in life, that of being subservient to God, sitting comfortably in the Presence of God is viewed as not respectful.

-    Only one RW asked me about Orthodox churches in my city.  I replied no Russian churches but a few Greek churches.  She said they were acceptable but not a Catholic church. 

There's been bad blood between the Roman Church and the Russian Church since the schism in the 11th century.  I'm not surprised to hear of a RW make such a comment.

If I attended services again, I would choose a church because of the “pastor/preacher/priest” and his philosophy and style.  Would this be improbable with such a RW?

Probably not.  Orthodox priests are pretty much under the thumb of the ecumenical patriarch and will add very little of his own philosophy and style to the mix.

I asked my fiancée about getting married in a Russian Church.  She replied that it was sacra religious and that the priest would not perform it unless he knew us.  Is this true?

It is true.  To be married in an Orthodox Church you would have to have been baptised in a Church whose Holy Rites are considered valid by the Church.  I know Greek Orthodox as well as Roman Catholic baptisms are considered valid, I don't know about any of the more popular protestant Churches being on the list. They could be, I just don't know.

I hope this helps.

[Wayne]

If you are Catholic and divorced,  you could get a second marriage in the Orthodox faith much easier.  You would not need to go through the church annulment process.  Also, it is normal to have to wait for at least 6 months and go to instructions and meetings with the Priest in the Catholic church.  If you are using the K-1 visa, you only get 90 days.  I checked this out, and only one of the persons needs to be Orthodox--but you need to check with the individual Priest! 

I went by car through Western Ukraine and noticed many new churches in the villages.  Most of the churches in Ukraine were destroyed. Not all religions are tolerated in Ukraine.  I know of two groups who were allowed to immigrate to USA because they could not practice their religion in Ukraine.  Also, I believe there is a seperate Ukrainian Orthodox Church that is not controled by Russia.