The Previous Research Project - Cyberbrides in America (Planet-Love)

[Jooky]

I participated in Ada's questions.

I didn't question her methodology and frankly I think this kind of research is no purpose leading only to the obvious conclusion that there are all sorts of men seeking international relationships for all sorts of reasons.

My sense was that her preconceptions of the 'mail order bride' business, obvious from her use of that term alone, follow the negative stereotype we have all seen propogated by the mass media. My sense was also that she asked her questions not to further perpetrate these stereotypes but rather to question and perhaps invalidate them.

That's why I participated, to invalidate negative perceptions that aid politicians to pass useless laws such as the recent IMBRA act. Personally that act has no bearing on me or my future, but I am strongly against needless restrictions to our freedom.

There are some complete freaks involved in seeking international brides. I can attest to that, and I have knowledge of facts many of you would not believe. There are also many very upstanding men by any standards who seek brides overseas. The plain truth is that there is a whole range of men who date and marry Russian women just as there are who date and marry any women.

I disagree with jb saying that the input of men 'just looking' hold less value in this study. Her research is not about men married to Russian women it is about what kind of man seeks an international bride. That could be a man married for 20 years or a man browsing the pages of Anastasiaweb.

Now some of you might be right. Ada might take our input, misconstrue it and produce yet another negative expose on the 'mail order bride' business. If that's her intention she could do so much easier without asking any questions or participating in this forum at all. She would do better just making stuff up.

So I gave her the benefit of the doubt and served her some honest answers. I don't understand all the fuss. Some of you guys seem really grumpy this holiday season.
Ho ho ho.

[William3rd]

Well- here's my 2 cents.

My august (or December ) opinion is that I participated over the weekend because any research project has value. I have probably more experience in this area (MOB) than any man alive.

BTW- I do not agree with the term- international something or another would be more appropriate.

The researcher sets her own parameters and has posted her general questions. Participate or dont participate as you see fit.

The project has its own parameters and I dont see why this board is trying to second guess the parameters or influence the method. If the data is reported accurately than that is more than we can hope for.

If you read that government survey from the 90s, the researchers chose to ignore their input because they thought the men were all trying to put on a different face (in other words, we were all liars) and reached conclusions not based on the data.

If you want to post your answers, then post them. I did my interview by telephone ( I would have preferred Ethiopian food, but Chicago was a little out of range for a meal) and I will not post my answers because it is really nobody's business but my own.

Relax and wait for the conclusions.

[KenC]

I have to say that I agree with both Jooky and William on this one.
I too participated with Ada through PM's and I don't think she has given us any indication that she is doing anything devious.  In fact, she has been very forthright and open with us. 

William,
If you don't think "International Dating" is an appropriate name, what is and why?
KenC

[Michelangelo]

I think you made the correct choice, KenC.

Some guys here are reluctant to participate because the norm is that journalist  sensationalize the story and make men who are married to foreign wives look bad.  History confirms that their feelings are correct.

However, Ada is NOT a journalist.  She is an academic.  Sure, she is capable of writing such a story for journalistic rags. But the truth is, that is NOT what she needs career wise.

I looked at her CV, and she needs research based, peer reviewed articles.  Academic writing is not journalist writing.  Rather, it is boring and factual and the data does the talking.

Ada wants to earn university tenure and to eventually be promoted to full professor at a university.  So I suspect she will create an academic article and not an article for a newspaper or popular magazine with this data.

When I was once in her position at a university, I was very proud of two publications--one in Newsweek and one in Parenting Magazine.  The promotions and merit committee refused to accept either one on my CV; they were not peer reviewed.  Thus, Ada will most likely keep this article at the professional level and pitch it to the academic market.

In my opinion, we are helped when mature men here present their stories, and present logical reasons for international marriages and that they in reality can work.

[jb]

Michelangelo,

All that you say may be true.  However, we in this endeavor represent such a microscopic cross section of society as to be invisible.  Why would a genuine social scientist/researcher ever take note of us?  It just doesn't make sense to me.  I wouldn't think we would be on anybody's radar screen.   Especially a *special* segment of society in need of analysis.  We don't need to be explained, we are all crazy, and we know it.  What the few of us do will turn no heads demographically, we are insignificant in the view of the total, and the demographers will wind up listing us in the "others" column anyway.  Like the "American Indians", we are too small a lot to make a difference in any election.  Therefore no one pays attention to us.

I guess I just don't get it.

Ada may have some personal interest in the area of International dating, but that does not make the subject worthy of a case study, she may just need to go find a b/f and see how things work out.

[William3rd]

International something or other would be appropriate.

I dont think international dating quite describes it either.

[smsmsmsm]

Hi all,

I just strees Michael's point. I am not looking sensationalism. It is an academic study. Academic studies have their own rules. I need to abide by them.

All researchers want to find new angles for their studies. There is no point for me to reproduce the perspectives argued by previous studies. I am looking for a new angle to understand your experiences and views. My questions are not to trick people into what I plan to misuse. Let me know if you need me to clarify more quetsions.

Ada

[dwfunk]

However, we in this endeavor represent such a microscopic cross section of society as to be invisible.  .....  I wouldn't think we would be on anybody's radar screen.   Especially a *special* segment of society in need of analysis.   .....  Therefore no one pays attention to us.

Nobody knows we're here??  You've got to be kidding!!  Then where did IMBRA some from??  Somebody knows we're here!  They passed a whole law about this type of dating/marriage!

The problem is that too many people, the general public at large knows, and what they know is all wrong.  It's time somebody sets the record straight.


----------
David & Natalia
Republic of Texas/Moscow , Russia
УЛ. КОНЕНКОВА
16th World Spacemodeling Championships

[dwfunk]

International something or other would be appropriate.

I dont think international dating quite describes it either.

This endeavor is more like an "Arranged Marriage."



----------
David & Natalia
Republic of Texas/Moscow , Russia
УЛ. КОНЕНКОВА
16th World Spacemodeling Championships

[William3rd]

cross-cultural relationships- much better, I think. . .
hell of a lot better than mail  order brides


sex without borders-just kidding, folks!!!! I will stick with my first thought

[smsmsmsm]

Cross-cultural relationship is too broad since it can also applies to people from different cultures who date or marry within the United States. Cross-border dating and marriage would probably be the best. It is coined by Nicole Constable, whose work "Romance on the Global Stage" does a good job representing men involved in the process. The other term I have been thinking about is transnational dating and marriage, but that might be difficult for people to grasp. Anyway, I might follow Constable and use her term.

Ada 

[William3rd]

Cross-border or transnational dating and marriage is pretty good. Cross-border makes me think of Mexico exclusively for some reason.

Well thought out. . . . .

Merry Christmas,  by the way

[Admin]

Cross-cultural relationship is too broad since it can also applies to people from different cultures who date or marry within the United States. Cross-border dating and marriage would probably be the best. It is coined by Nicole Constable, whose work "Romance on the Global Stage" does a good job representing men involved in the process. The other term I have been thinking about is transnational dating and marriage, but that might be difficult for people to grasp. Anyway, I might follow Constable and use her term.

Ada 

What makes you say; "Constable.... does a good job representing men involved in the process." ?

- Dan

[IAmZon]

I am with the understanding that a group discussion, or even a interview, or interviews, that would be closed to group collaboration may interfer with the one - to - one expression that Ada's methodology is expressly attempting to secure.

Ada has asked me questions.  I have answered them. No harm done. I see her as a professional. I do not presume that she has as ax to grind.

Some of her questions, made me see my interest in International Dating in a disturbing and entirely different context than I intend.  Yet it is my individual context that is ALL that matters to me ... everything else is a generalization. 

All politicians are liars (perhaps bad example).  All lawyers are crooks (again, perhaps bad example).  All research scholars are well balanced and fair minded?  All men engaged in International Dating are desperate for female companionship, and cannot achieve female company without the benefit of offering a huge socio-economic benefits to the woman?

Ada, ask away!  Perhaps your work will benefit someone.  Perhaps your work will reveal insight.  Perhaps your work will ask important questions that each of us must ask ourselves.  I am at least open to that possibility.

One of your faithful subjects,

[smsmsmsm]

Hi Dan,

Constable's work "Romance on the Global Stage: Pen Pals, Virtual Ethnography and "Mail Order" Marriages is the pioneer work in understanding men's as well as women's experiences for cross border dating and marriage, which is quite different from the usual work that examines the representation of websites, etc. She is the first who suggests the term cross border dating and marriage should replace the term mail order bride. Her work does not fall into this dichotomy of Western men as oppressors and Third World women as victims. Rather than perpetuating the stereotypes, she shows the desires, motivations, and experiences of men who are involved in this process to pursue life partners. Further, she does not show women as powerless and helpless, all driven by economic poverty. She demonstrates that women have agency and have choices in selecting the life partners they see as suitable. It is interesting that her work has also been attacked in the feminist community because of her different approach toward this whole issue. I think her work does a fair representation of men as well as women who are involved in cross border dating and marriage. The reason I want to do interviews with members is also get "inside" of the people and get a sense of what people have to say about their pursuit for life partners.

Ricardco, thanks for the encouragement. I was just wondering where you had been. I think there is such variation among people who are involved in cross border dating and marriage that I don't think generalization is possible. Even the "community" (this board) is rather fragmented and composed of wide range of members from different backgrounds. To collective individual stories, I will be less likely to fall into the trap of categorizing people and trying to fit them into boxes and patterns.

Ada     

[Jooky]

While everyone is searching for the correct term or label, why not dispense with labels altogether?

Meeting a woman at a social, through an agency, via a newspaper ad, on an internet personals site, in an internet chat room, at school, at work, at church, at a disco, at a barbecue, at McDonald's, wherever; these all just methods of making an introduction regardless of what country this introduction takes place.

Look, if I meet a woman at the local supermarket does she become a 'store bought bride', maybe a 'Wal-mart weekly special'? Some men actually find supermarkets a good venue for meeting women. Are they engaged in 'supermarket dating'? Are people who hit the nightclubs every weekend 'disco daters'?

Tonight on Hard Copy "Disco-Daters: The sad tale of a victim plied with tequila shots and cheesy pickup lines"

Let's say I meet a woman on a trip to Rome and I start dating her. I wouldn't consider myself 'engaged in the process of cross border dating'. I would simply think 'my girlfriend is from Rome', and that's it.

Within our American borders people meet often on the internet. There are speed dating sessions more intense than the interview type dates men set up through Russian agencies. There are match making agencies which are truly more of arranged marriage services than any agency that runs out of Russia. Do the people who use these services get categorized? I've never seen it. I have yet to be introduced to anyone's 'internet husband'.

These labels are intended to categorize people so that they can be criticized as a group.

What most bothers me about these boards is the talk about the 'process'. The legal paperwork of a K visa is a process. There is no freaking 'process' of finding a Russian wife. People are just using different methods of introduction and realizing that with modern travel and communication you are not limited to seeking a mate in your own backyard.

As for the pioneer researcher who suggests new terms to replace the term mail-order bride, I suggest that anyone that takes the term 'mail-order bride' seriously needs their head examined. Frankly that's why the term doesn't bother me. I find it ridiculously humorous and use it myself facetiously.

Men seeking 'cross border' dating are not the ones being put on the spot here. I bet none of these studies consider interviewing an American man married to a French woman, or a German man married to a Swiss woman. Yet those are examples of 'cross border international dating'. 'International marriage and dating is not what is being scrutinized here.

What's being put on the spot are men who seeking brides from impoverished countries, in this particular case countries of the Former Soviet Union.

I have met Russian women using methods no different than I would use to meet women in the United States. For research purposes I fall into this difficult to label 'international dating' category. If I had met and dated a Canadian woman in the same fashion would I fit into one of these studies? No.

As for the true motivation of most men under the microscope here you can look no further than this:

http://www.anastasiaweb.com/top1000.htm

versus this:

http://search.personals.yahoo.com/us/results/results?resulttype=1&searchsource=1&searchview=1&r_gender=1&r_gender_pref=2&r_min_age=20&r_max_age=40&r_has_photo=2&r_locid=14016287&r_loc_ver=2&r_language_pref=1&use_compat=0&&alt_nsi=&advanced=1

 

Here, I will complete Ada's project for her:

Q: What kind of men engage in the process of mail-order cross-border marriages?
A: All kinds.

The end.

 

(Ada, I'm giving you a hard time, but I hope you see my point and enjoy your research.)

[prince_alfie]

Jooky hit the nail upon the head. Everyone is going to have a unique way of finding their Russian (or whatever) princess. There is no set story in fact. It's like reading a unique novel; no two couples have the same story.

In fact, most advice that is proffered isn't all that useful. Brute honestly, an upbeat attitude, and a decent amount of respect (which are values that are more sensible) a la Jane Austen is going to move a lot further.

Russian women are women like anywhere else in the world. Just that there are unique cultural facets that we tend to favor... 

[jb]

In fact, most advice that is proffered isn't all that useful.

Well, I'm sure we all thank you for that.  Perhaps you shouldn't read anything else here from now on since you now know everything and think we are so useless.

Russian women are women like anywhere else in the world. Just that there are unique cultural facets that we tend to favor...

Alfie, you've obviously spent quite a lot of time in the company of Russians to make that statement.  Would you care to enlighten us as to how much time you have logged in the FSU?

[prince_alfie]

Well, I'm sure we all thank you for that.  Perhaps you shouldn't read anything else here from now on since you now know everything and think we are so useless.


Alfie, you've obviously spent quite a lot of time in the company of Russians to make that statement.  Would you care to enlighten us as to how much time you have logged in the FSU?

You don't need to visit FSU or any other country to know that all women have similar qualities across the cultures and countries. Perhaps I should ask you a question: Once you take away the Slavic accent, cultural background, and looks, what differences remain?

The universal commonalities of humanity would need to be focused on.

[William3rd]

Some folks are just crying out to be ignored as irrelevent.

Some of these posts give a good argument for allowing mandatory drowning at birth or at least mandatory sterilization before allowing reproduction.

hehehehehehe-

[TexasBoar]

Some folks are just crying out to be ignored as irrelevent.

And sometimes, it's like the ol' ignore button just pushes itself. 

This did catch my eye, though:

perhaps I should ask you a question: Once you take away the Slavic accent, cultural background, and looks, what differences remain?

 ???

Meat?

 ???

Wouldn't language, culture, and genetics (looks) pretty much be everything that makes a person who they are? Seems to me anything one might add---personality, integrity, character, SOH---derives from those.

~Boar

[prince_alfie]

Wouldn't language, culture, and genetics (looks) pretty much be everything that makes a person who they are? Seems to me anything one might add---personality, integrity, character, SOH---derives from those.

~Boar

But aren't those the values merely superficial? Doesn't look inspire jealousy in others, culture inspire hatred among each other, and language (the movie Babel is a good example) inspire confusion? There are positive aspects I believe but a negative flipside.

For example, http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061222/ap_on_go_co/ellison_quran is an example a needless cultural conflict.

There are values which are universal to any culture: art, love, divinity, understanding-- abstract ones which go beyond the Hegelian materialism of today's world.

[smsmsmsm]

Hi Jooky,

You made excellent points. You are not giving me a difficult time. Your insights help me think through a lot of issues. I would probably quote your statements. Hope you don't mind.

Having said that, I would play devil's advocate here. The following is not new. Scholars who have studied this topic have provided the following critiques. I am just picturing the same critiques that would come along my way as I try to explore individual stories, motivations and experiences.

You have a good point about dispensing labels all together. You are right. We don't label the relationship between American men and Canadian women or French men and Swiss women as international or cross border dating. It is exactly the economic conditions of the FSU or other Asian countries that provoke the interest in feminist studies. Yet, it is also the interesting part. The arguement is that the Western men and Third World women (e.g., Asian women) relationship is a continuation of the colonial relationship, which is racialized in nature. It is based on the historical myths about Asian women. In the case of FSU, it is the geopolitical and economic conditions that compel Russian women to seek foreign husbands. The scholars would argue that this constitutes the unequal relationship between Western men and Third World/FSU women. It is thus argued that this inequality inherent in this type of relationship needs to be labeled and critiqued. 

It is a good point about the similarity between dating through local personals and through Russian sites. The arguements against their similarity lie in the following. Let's say if you meet a woman at a local store or yahoo personals, there is more of a mutuality involved. That is, you get to see what she is like and she gets to see what you are like. In match.com and yahoo personals, women have as many opportunities as men to choose and to pursue. They get to see your profiles. However, for international dating, it is not necessarily the case. Particularly in the early stage, it is often men who have access to women's information but not the other way around. Men choose women out of "catelogues." It has changed much of course. The problem is that scholars haven't really differentiated the differences between early and later stages. This arguement also very much presumes the "helplessness" of Third World or FSU women.

I think the other point that has been pointed out by scholars is the way these websites are constructed. As the websites you provided demonstrate, Third World and FSU women are definitely well "packaged" and well presented, as opposed to yahoo personals or match.com. They also tend to be young and/or younger. It is thus argued that these Asian women or Russian women websites are more commercialized and cater to particular groups of men.

I know you are familiar with these arguments. I am just talking out loud how the other side would argue against you. Brain exercises, that is all.

Ada           

[prince_alfie]

Would the relationship between Asian-American and Russian women be considered a form of colonalism?

It's rather interesting that assimilation will have a strong influence on the cultural tastes of a single person...

[jb]

It is exactly the economic conditions of the FSU or other Asian countries that provoke the interest in feminist studies.

Why does that word keep popping up?

it is the geopolitical and economic conditions that compel Russian women to seek foreign husbands. The scholars would argue that this constitutes the unequal relationship between Western men and Third World/FSU women. It is thus argued that this inequality inherent in this type of relationship needs to be labeled and critiqued.

This is a crap statement and I suspect you know it.  Russian women are not compelled, no one is holding a gun to their heads, to seek a husband outside the FSU, Russian men have been doing an OK job at that chore for centuries.  If you don't know it, I should direct you so called scholarly studies to the post WWII era, when about a million American GI's brought home German and Japanese war brides.  Did any of your scholarly colleagues put those courtships and marriages under scrutiny?  Certainly the economics and geopolitical conditions existed in greater amounts there, than now.  I suspect not, because it was pre-feminist.

I think the other point that has been pointed out by scholars is the way these websites are constructed. As the websites you provided demonstrate, Third World and FSU women are definitely well "packaged" and well presented, as opposed to yahoo personals or match.com.

This is yet another carelessly worded assumption, first of all, the internet hasn't been around long enough, or enjoyed a wide enough usage to be a "scholars" tool yet.  Most new drugs go through more intensive and lengthly testing before approval.  Further, internet usage in the FSU is still in it's infancy.  In an age where there was only 1 home in 50 that had a working telephone 5 years ago, to a point today where a cell phone is the most important fashion accessory amongst the younger set, you cannot view such a *bubble* as a social fixture in the FSU.  I don't have the numbers at hand, but the number of homes with PC's might be enlightening to know.  To hang this phenomena on the internet (a less than 5 year blip in the FSU) is probably not good science.

Traditionally, most foreign brides arrive from non-FSU countries.  Nobody questioned why a man might fall in love with a Filipino, an English, French, German, or a Latin lady.  Why the sudden interest by feminist groups in Russian ladies?  Is it possible, (say it isn't so) that the typical AW see something in RWs they cannot compete with and it makes them nervious? 

There's always a bias.