RW's at 40+

[SANDRO43]

I find this an interesting thread.  Has anyone else noticed that there is a significant increase in RW listed in the +35 category over the last 5 or 6 years? 

I concur, although this appears to me a much more recent phenomenon. From this year in particular, they're coming out of the woods in larger droves. Maybe their daughters reported favourably about opportunities at MOB sites ?

I think that there are factors that work both for and against RW being able to maintain their beauty through the years.  Lifestyle has to affect it and Russian lifestyle is harder on a woman's beauty than American lifestyle. 

I would venture that insecurity about their future, considering the social-economical situations in most FSU countries,  may be a major factor in the premature ageing of their looks (aren't those called "worry" creases ?).

[viking]

There was an underlying reason for me to start this topic. For those who have followed my posts over the last 9 months, I have had more than my fair share of the downside in searching the FSU for a wife. From this point of view, most men who fall to the clutches of a scammer are –typically-older being seduced by a much younger woman and thinking how lucky they are. If these men had set their sights a bit higher, like the ladies we are referring to here, perhaps they would not become victims and might also find some beautiful women to meet at a far less risk. To find a woman like KenC’s wife or Turbos’ gal is like winning the lottery and  99.99% of the population will never see that. Serious men in search for a serious woman need to be brought down to reality a bit and not buy into all this hype that is marketed by others in the MOB industry.
The search for a good woman is not easy. We know this. And even when we look in the upper 30 range there are problems. The last woman who scammed me was 38. But, the chances become less as we move up the ladder. So if a guy is older (and it seems there are quite a few here)  and searches for a woman in her early 40’s, he still has a great selection of ladies, reduces the risks, will most likely find a more serious woman, most likely will find a woman whose children are grown (assuming you do not want any more babies in the house at this age) and can devote time together as a couple.

I have had many women respond to some of my profiles who are in this age range. I must admit the majority look like 40 miles of rough road or some ones babushka. I respond with a thank you but no thank you and then delete. But when you run across people like in these photos, hmmmm, how can you not try and start a conversation?

[SANDRO43]

I have had many women respond to some of my profiles who are in this age range. I must admit the majority look like 40 miles of rough road or some ones babushka. I respond with a thank you but no thank you and then delete. But when you run across people like in these photos, hmmmm, how can you not try and start a conversation?

My experience exactly. But when a type like Natasha crops up, you may conclude that you're NEVER really safe .

After her 1st letter, I feared she might be TOO romantic a type (poetry, art, Pisces, etc.). Her 2nd letter soon dispelled any such notion .

[KenC]

Viking,
I think I know just how lucky I am to have found Lena.  I also know that our relationship is an abberation.  However, I don't see any comparison to our 7+ year marriage and 8+ year relationship to Turbo/VWRW's "budding" relationship.  No offense to Turbo or VWRW but there is a long and twisting road ahead of them to get where Lena and I are now.  I wish them well but as I said, our relationship is an abberation.  Most relationships with the age difference which we have will fail and Turbo/VWRW are pushing even more years of difference.

You seem to look at youth as only an advantage, but in reality there are many disadvantages to marrying a young woman.  In fact there are many more disadvantages than advantages.  Marrying a woman that is at the same or similar stage of life as you is infinitely easier.  If I were to be on the market today, I would be looking in the 40ish range. 

There is also a bit of "candy store mentality" to all this too.  Looking through profiles, one may start in the appropriate age range and then push it to a little younger and then a little more and.....before you know it your wondering if that 18 year old hottie is mature enough for you?   I call it a "Hugh Hefner effect" that can happen to you while visiting the ladies in Russia.  One can start thinking he is such a studmuffin that he begins to wonder out of his league in age and beauty and end up in a final destination that he never intended to be.  I have even warned friends going to Russia about this.  I tell them that this will be the closest you ever will be to living the life a Hugh Hefner and not to be fooled by it because you will eventually have to come back to earth.


Conner,
Great point about a more mature RW would not be willing to put up with some of the flaky AM that seek RW.  As a matter of fact, I did meet one "age appropriate" lady when I first went to Tver.  She was 37, plenty good looking enough for my taste and a very classy woman.  Marc and the owners of LTP warned me that she was very very picky and mostly blew the AM's off after the first meeting, if she met them at all.  On my first full day in Tver, I went into the office for a meeting to coordinate things and after about 10 mins there, Marc told me this woman was coming in to meet me.  It was kind of ironic because Marc was just  telling me about how selective she was and that she may or not meet me at all.  It happens that one of the office staff gave this lady a call and told her she had better get her butt in there if she was going to have any chance at me. We did go on a date, but there was no "electricity" between us, but she was a fine woman.

KenC

[jb]

KenC,

FWIW.   A "How To Measure" the success potential of a RW/AM marriage seems to me a great idea for a thread.

[Kuna]

Yes, I do know that. 
WRT vwrw's comments, I just find it very irritating when anyone, especially a young pup, says things like *I've only seen 7 women over 40 who knew how to dress and put on makeup*.  She also refutes that a woman might be successful financially.  My wife's situation took me quite unaware, when she arrived she mentioned that she had brought some "traveling money" with her, the next day we went to the bank and made a $20,000 deposit.  I married up in so many ways, beauty was the least of them.  Financially speaking, my wife is worth more than I am.  Years ago I made the occasional reference to my wife's family over on the RWG, and I think no one believed me, but it's true, I married into a very powerful and wealthy family.  Granted, a lot of the money and property is inherited, but it's hers nonetheless.

jb,

Again your posts are always interesting...  not always good, but also not always bad.

I have a couple of questions/comments.

It's interesting that that your wife was economically comfortable before going to the US.  When I first joined the board there was a post that said something like; "RW marry for economic reasons not love, full stop, that's it, if you think it's any different you're fooling yourself".

At the time I was very taken aback and to be honest, I thought about it for a while.  I would not marry someone who's primary desire was financial gain... but that's just me.  Someone else might be less concerned about someone who seeks financial security above other drivers. 

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear what your wife's reason for marrying abroad were?  I could assume and I think I might be right, but I try to not make assumptions.

Not all of us are doomed to marry a $200.00 a month shop girl, I could have found a woman like that at my local Wal-Mart, but if that's what you are attracted to, I wish you well.

I'm only commenting on this because current and future members of RWD should know that there's nothing wrong with meeting, dating and marrying a girl that works in retail, if that makes them happy!  I know you finished your post with the "I wish you well", but that wasn't really moderating your insult, it was a part of the insult.

I was a bit confused with one of my "favourite girls" because early in the correspondence she was certainly interesting to me and the communication was good but I thought she worked in retail.  I didn't care if she was a "shop girl" because I don't judge people based on their jobs/incomes, I judge them based on their actions and values.

Over time I realised she worked for a large retailer, but she was actually a lawyer that negotiates supply and distribution agreements, leases, etc.  I think just like you were surprised with your wife's financial status, others might be surprised by other things they discover about their "shop girls".

I'll add,  and let's be honest...  Not all men posses or demand a high intellect from their partners. Some men might be much more comfortable with a "shop girl" that is loving, caring, committed to her home and children and enjoys working in retail because "she likes playing with pretty things".  I dated a girl here in Oz who was like that (well the last bit anyway).  She had the ability to have a more demanding career but she literally liked working around "Pretty things" and didn't feel compelled to take an office job, wear a suit and work in an environment dominated by cubicles.

Just a thought...  if someone out there is happy with their "$200 a month shop girl"... Congratulations.

Congrats to you too though jb, you obviously greatly admire and respect your wife, and that's something we should all aspire to!

Kuna

[Turboguy]

Nice post Kuna.  You are right.  jb has some great ideas sometimes and some that I don't agree with.   He has made a number of posts that more or less say he considers shop girls on about the same level as dirt swept under the rug.   I agree with you also.  I don't look down on anyone.   We have a very diverse group.  Some seek an educated successful driven woman and some seek a woman who will be a good, loving wife.  What is right for jb is not right for everyone. 

When I dated AW the ones who were driven, educated and successful seemed to be more attracted to me than the "shop girls"  To me however it is a non issue.  I looked for the person inside.  I think a lot of people feel that way and everyone has a right to chase thier dreams, whatever they are.

[jb]

When I first joined the board there was a post that said something like; "RW marry for economic reasons not love, full stop, that's it, if you think it's any different you're fooling yourself".

I don't know who posted that tidbit, but for about 90% of the young girls listed with agencies it's prolly true.  It's also true that a young Russian man with a great income is getting his share of sidelong glances from the Russian hotties as well.   I have direct evidence of this, my youngest step-son makes a good salary and he changes g/f's weekly.  He likes to tease his mom and me with pictures of his latest conquest.  Since his mom and me would like grandbabies someday, we study these pics with great interest.  Every girl is prettier than the last, model quality in the looks department in every case.  The latest one is more movie star quality, better figure and not so thin.  Oddly, he's just 21 y.o., all his g/f's are older by a few years.  His current is vwrw's age.
I think the yardstick is not long enough to encompass all the reasons why women marry who they marry, in our case I know my wife didn't marry for my money.  I like to think she married me because she loved and respected me.   We dated a long time and spent a lot of time together, the spur that got me to that point of marriage was 9-11-01.   I was in the air somewhere over Greenland, returning from one of my many trip to Moscow when it happened.  I called her up when I finally got home and proposed.  I knew instinctively that immigration was going to get tougher and if we were ever going to do the deed we'd best get busy.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear what your wife's reason for marrying abroad were?  I could assume and I think I might be right, but I try to not make assumptions.

You'd have to ask her that question to get a definitive answer.  Maybe she had delusions of being a Texas cowgirl as a child.  She certainly watched enough old American western movies when she was a kid.  However, I like to think she would tell you that she moved to the US to be with me.  After all, she cared enough about me to marry me, aren't wives supposed to live with their husbands?

He has made a number of posts that more or less say he considers shop girls on about the same level as dirt swept under the rug.

Not quite as low as all that, T/G.  However I can find that woman at home.  If a man goes to the trouble and expense of dating a girl who lives 6,000 miles away, he might as well go for something above average.   For most of my adult life I have always dated professional women, the odd times when I dated a girl just because she was pretty, things usually went south very quickly.  I'm just a guy who needs mental stimulation to be happy in a relationship.

[Turboguy]

Above average means different things to different people.  To me, a job is a job.  It is not the person.  If all I cared about was a wife with an advanced education and a high profile successful career I could find that at home too. 

VWRW happens to have a great intellect and a very high drive.  I have no doubts she will find success in whatever she chooses to do in America but it has very little to do with why I fell for her.  Well, perhaps she was intelligent enough to know what buttons to push to make me fall in love with her.  I do have to admit that her wisdom and intelligence were a big factor in my feelings.   She is also educated but to me education and intelligence are two different things.  Education just means you went to school a lot.

[KenC]

Nice post Kuna.  You are right.  jb has some great ideas sometimes and some that I don't agree with.   He has made a number of posts that more or less say he considers shop girls on about the same level as dirt swept under the rug.   I agree with you also.  I don't look down on anyone.   We have a very diverse group.  Some seek an educated successful driven woman and some seek a woman who will be a good, loving wife.  What is right for jb is not right for everyone. 

When I dated AW the ones who were driven, educated and successful seemed to be more attracted to me than the "shop girls"  To me however it is a non issue.  I looked for the person inside.  I think a lot of people feel that way and everyone has a right to chase thier dreams, whatever they are.

Turbo,
There are many different facets to compatibility.  Two that are important to me are class and sophistication.  I have lived in semi-rural burgs like Beaver Falls and wanted to kill myself as an example.  My wife would think you would be joking if you offered to eat in a MacDonalds and I wouldn't wear a pair of shoes from Walmart if they were free.  In fact I think I have been in Walmart twice in my life.  Once was out of curiosity and the other an emergency. Does that make me and Lena snobs?  Maybe.  And maybe VWRW will fit perfectly into your Big Mac eating, Walmart shoe wearing Beaver Falls lifestyle.  I don't think it lowers your value as a person or raises mine, but we are from very different worlds.  Hopefully, you have chosen the right girl for your world as I know I did for mine.
KenC

[David1963]

However I can find that woman at home.  If a man goes to the trouble and expense of dating a girl who lives 6,000 miles away, he might as well go for something above average.   

Many people go abroad just for this reason, to find someone who would look twice at them here.  I think keeping things reasonable with the age and looks is a safer bet for a successful relationship. 

In answer to the second point that was brought up earlier, I can see that a successful and intelligent woman from the FSU would want to relocate because they can increase their success here much more than they can over there. 

[David1963]

My wife would think you would be joking if you offered to eat in a MacDonalds and I wouldn't wear a pair of shoes from Walmart if they were free.  In fact I think I have been in Walmart twice in my life.  Once was out of curiosity and the other an emergency. Does that make me and Lena snobs?  Maybe.  

This is very telling.  I know you mentioned that your wife had dated and had offers from much richer men than you locally but I doubt she would have given the time of day to someone who only had the financial ability to shop at Walmart, no matter how compatible he was in other ways.

We are all different in what we hold important in a partner.

[jb]

I have to agree with you Ken.  My wife would prolly rather go barefoot than wear Wal-Mart shoes.  Same goes for the clothes they sell there.  I know this next statement will create a firestorm, but my wife does not like anything made in China or Korea.  Japanese is another story, better quality manufacturing and better quality materials.  She ain't all that fond of German stuff either.  She says Mercedes and BMWs are grossly over priced for what you get and much prefers her Toyota Camry.  She once asked what "Kia" meant when she saw one of those cars, I told her the KIA stands for "killed in action", she passed up that good deal too. 

We do not eat fast food of any kind except when traveling, we consider airport and airline food several notches below MacDonalds.  While we enjoy going out to eat, it better be a place that serves a decent house wine.  Does that make her a snob?  No, it just makes her a woman with good taste.  There is a difference.

In answer to the second point that was brought up earlier, I can see that a successful and intelligent woman from the FSU would want to relocate because they can increase their success here much more than they can over there.

uuuummmm maybe,  if she has good English and marketable skills she might.  However, the vast majority of FSU women arrive here unemployable until they get their English up to snuff.  I think it would be misleading to suggest to men here that a FSU woman can arrive on our shores and step right into a decent wage earner position.  Men should not count any chickens on that score.  A typical K-1 girl will not get her "real" working papers until after the wedding, and that usually takes 90 days from the date of application.  So she's here for the 90 days K-1, and then the next 90 days to get the EAD.   So figure she'll be cooling her heels at the sponsors expense for at least 6 months before she can look for something to do.   There are also not a lot of FSU professions that translate directly into the American workplace. 

My wife was lucky, her Moscow State University diploma evaluated to a MS (Physics) and more than 18 hours of post grad mathematics, she was offered a teaching position at the local college before she had her EAD in hand, the only thing she had was the BCIS receipt showing she had applied for it.  They were so desperate for math and science teachers, they accepted her on faith.  She also had excellent English skills.  The good news is that she loves to teach, so it's not just a vocation, more like an avocation she gets paid to do.

[KenC]

This is very telling.  I know you mentioned that your wife had dated and had offers from much richer men than you locally but I doubt she would have given the time of day to someone who only had the financial ability to shop at Walmart, no matter how compatible he was in other ways.

We are all different in what we hold important in a partner.

Actually, it isn't very "telling" at all because my wife is a very kind and understanding person too.  On one trip we had together in Moscow, we were living the "high life" and dinning in the best restaurants (my choice) when there were some irregularities in my account back home rendering my ATM card useless.  She didn't bat a beautiful eyelash and suggested we eat at Patio Pizza that night.  I have been with this woman for over 8 years now, and I have no doubts about her intentions.  If she was with me for a green card or my money, she is the worst scammer in the world!

If anything, she is more of an intellectual snob than anything else.  She needs intellectual stimulation more than she needs monetary gratification.  Good thing for me!  But I will continue to spoil her sweet butt as long as I can because she has her ways of spoiling me too!  
Whatever floats your boat is OK with me.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

     After my divorce from my first wife and considerable experience in dating, I swore that I would never date anyone under around 33 years old.  There seemed to be a change in attitude about that time in women.  At that time I was 39 years old.  Five years later I made an exception for my current wife only because she appeared to be the exception, even though she was only 29 years old at the time.  She had degrees in accounting and building contracting and materials management and a master's in economics.  She is without a doubt the most intelligent woman I have ever met, and I have traveled in some pretty exclusive circles.  She did not have  "professional" job at the time only because she hadn't yet had the time to work up the ladder.  Now she's 33, a bit under the 35+ range people cite, but I certainly don't see her losing anything in the looks department.  So why did she marry me?  For the same reason I married her, because we were looking for compatibility inmore areas than just physical.  She says she found it difficult to have an intelligent comversation with most of the Russian men that she met and she became bored very quickly. Did she marry me for my money?  Heck, I can't get her to spend any on herself.  There was a time before I moved over there and we married where I had wired her enough money to purchase our current apartment and completely remodel it.  If it was about the money, this would have been enough for her to live very comfortaby for a very long time. It certainly wasn't because she wanted a ticket to America because she stated up front that her preference was to continue living in Ukraine and although she wishes to visit, we have decided that Ukraine will always be our home.  What she wanted was a lifelong companion, no matter the money or the place, and this was exactly what I wanted as well.
     Now having said all that, I will admit that she lacks some of the wisdom and seasoning that only come with time, but I'm a patient man.  It will come.  I have a 15 year head start on her.
     For those of you guys that think a 30+ woman cannot look good without makeup and retouching, here's an impromptu webcam shot of her sans makeup.

     For anyone looking for someone older and more "serious" I would highly recommend my wife's best friend,  She is a 40 year old single lady who is a former Vice Premier of Crimea and now works in the Ministry of Economics.  I certainly can't see where she has "let herself go" over time.  Just to play fair, I'll show you an impromptu webcam picture of her sans makeup.  It's unfortunate you don't get a full body shot, though.

     

[KenC]

jb,
Lena has a couple of cute sayings that she learned from her Grandfather: "We are not so rich to buy cheap things" and "Cheap pay twice."  You reminded me of those when you described Etna's discriminating taste.  I bet you have heard Etna tell you that a store with low quality clothes was selling "rags" too!

In bringing this back into the thread topic.  Not only will a mature RW be more selective of the man she will marry, I am sure the bar for acceptable lifestyle will also be higher.  They simply will not be fooled and as easily placated as a young girl from the village.  But even the young girls from the village will soon figure out just where her man fits into the American social/economical pecking order.  So don't expect them to be in awe of hot and cold running water for too long.
KenC

[jb]

"We are not so rich to buy cheap things"

I've heard this a thousand times.

"Cheap pay twice."

Etna worded it a little different; she says, "if you buy cheap, you buy twice".  Means the same thing.

Wal-Mart clothes are "rags", yet the discount stores, "Ross" and "Marshalls", which sell overstocks and last years first line are not "rags".  A smart silk blouse which sold at Dillard's for $89.99 last year can be had for $14.99 at the outlet store is a reasonable purchase.  The lady knows how to shop, and always looks great.  When she comes home with a new frock I always make her model it for me and compliment her choice.  It's funny how that little act of affirmation sends a woman's confidence to new heights.

We have some dear friends who live on a ranch, their old ranch house was damaged by fire two or three years ago, rather than rebuild it, they elected to buy a double wide.  It was probably a smart choice for them, I just don't know their financial situation that well.  Etna doesn't like them less, but privately thinks they wasted money.  She calls it their temporary house.  To her way of thinking they will eventually build another house, they should have invested the money in building, rather than buy something which will depreciate and be worthless in a few years.  As I recall, her exact words were, "I feel like a bird in a cage when I'm in that house".  Before I get blasted by the double-wide dwellers here, I think it's a fine solution to the need for instant affordable housing, however I wouldn't try to move Etna into one.

[jb]

Scott,

If I were a single man:



I would pursue this woman.  Hot and heavy.  I'd make sure she knew I thought she was the most desirable woman in the world, (which is half the battle with a Russian woman).  If she responded to a letter of introduction favorably the first thing I'd do is buy a ticket to fly.

Viking, why are you not packing a bag?  With her background and credentials she might very well be the treasure you are looking for.

[KenC]

jb,
Lena gets greeted by name when she enters our local Marshalls store. Her other favs are Saks and Nieman Marcus outlet stores.  A trip to heaven for her is to an outlet center just outside Palm Springs that has Gucci, Roberto Cavali (her favorite designer), Versace and a bunch of other Italian names I don't know.
KenC

[jb]

Trying to get back on topic here.

99.9% of good portrait photography is in the lighting and in the equipment.  A professional photographer can make a sea turtle look like a mermaid with the proper lighting and the right lens.  I'm merely guessing, but I think men need to learn to distinguish between a professionally done photo shoot and a snapshot.  I'm sure everyone has seen the pics posted by wiz, these are regular snapshots which reveal every wrinkle and flaw.  She is a woman with natural beauty, she just has a few extra miles on the old chassis.  A pro photographer would, with soft focus lenses and careful lighting take 10-15 years off her face.  The man traveling 6,000 miles to meet her, unknowingly, would take one look and be gone.   It's a hazard.

I'd suggest a man looking in this direction always ask for "simple photos" of the woman over 40.  Certainly he should provide the same for her. It would surely cut down on dissappointment and lost dreams if everyone were this honest during the "getting to know you" phase.  The photos posted in the OP of this thread are certainly professionally done.  I'd wager any small sum a man would be upset and dissappointed when he finally met these women face to face.  They just won't look that good in real life.

Sad to say.

[jb]

KenC,

We have a Factory Outlet Mall between San Antonio and Austin with every super brand name you can think of selling everything you ever wanted at better than retail prices.  Etna went crazy there one day and spent a couple of hundred dollars,,, you'd have thought it was a couple of thousand to hear her tell it.

She was in hog heaven...

[Turboguy]

This is very telling.  I know you mentioned that your wife had dated and had offers from much richer men than you locally but I doubt she would have given the time of day to someone who only had the financial ability to shop at Walmart, no matter how compatible he was in other ways.

We are all different in what we hold important in a partner.

David, I agree with you that we are all different.   There is however a difference in someone who ONLY has the financial ability to shop at Walmart and someone who shops at WalMart.  WalMart is the number one store in sales in the world as far as I know so someone who has only set foot in one twice is in the minority.  I agree about the clothes.  I do by a few clothing things there but for most of my clothes no.   Also I will add that I have never eaten a Big Mac in my life and rarely eat in McDonald's in the USA.  I do eat there a lot in the FSU if I am not with someone.  I enjoy the chance to have a break from the FSU food. 

Actually when I made the post about the WalMart shoes, I was not wearing any shoes.  After all I am in training for a Russian wife and wearing shoes in the house is a no-no.   OK, if I put my WalMart shoes back on they are worth less than the left heal of Michaelangelo's 300 euro shoes.  What in the heck am I going to do with a $ 300 euro pair of shoes.  The dress shoes I have now have been up in my closet so long they should have an inch of dust on them.

As far as us being from different worlds Ken.  I am from Earth.  If you want to share with us what world you are from you are most welcome to. 

In bringing this back into the thread topic.  Not only will a mature RW be more selective of the man she will marry, I am sure the bar for acceptable lifestyle will also be higher.  They simply will not be fooled and as easily placated as a young girl from the village.  But even the young girls from the village will soon figure out just where her man fits into the American social/economical pecking order.  So don't expect them to be in awe of hot and cold running water for too long.
KenC

It seems to me that there is a very fine line between a girl who is selective of an acceptable lifestyle and what we call a "high maintenance woman"   To me a woman who wants a man who will give her nothing but the best of everything in life is a high maintenance woman.  As David said we all have different ideas but a high maintenance woman is not my idea of what I want in life.   It has nothing whatsoever to do with what I can afford.  I can afford a lot more than I want which is the best way to be.  Wanting more than you can afford will often get you in trouble.

Turbo,
There are many different facets to compatibility.  Two that are important to me are class and sophistication.  I have lived in semi-rural burgs like Beaver Falls and wanted to kill myself as an example. KenC

That's ok Ken.  I like your house but I would want to kill myself if I lived where you do also.  We all are different.

Class and sophistication is just like beauty.  It has different meaning to different people. 

[jb]

Class and sophistication is just like beauty.  It has different meaning to different people.

Not really, class and sophistication is not just like beauty.  It's a more universally understood quality.   A sane person who lives in a double-wide does not think it's a grand house, he knows it's really just a trailer house.  T/G, you can continue to fool yourself as long as you want to, however, you will always strike me as a double-wide kinda guy.  Lost and confused, with no idea about what class and sophistication really means.  Your posts here reveal much.  But it's not your fault, you are conditioned by your social environment to think that way.  No matter how successful your business is, you will always be "small town".  Your Wal-Mart shoes say everything.

[jb]

At the very least, give your feet a break and go to the big mall and check out some Florsheim slip-ons.  http://www.florsheim.com/flstore/index.do.. a much better choice for a medium priced, semi-dressy shoe, and you feet will love you for it.

[Kuna]

At the very least, give your feet a break and go to the big mall and check out some Florsheim slip-ons.  http://www.florsheim.com/flstore/index.do.. a much better choice for a medium priced, semi-dressy shoe, and you feet will love you for it.

Slip ons?  ewwww

....  but the sole on the Florsheim Imperial is so ridged they'll absolutely KILL your feet for the first 3 weeks.  Once you wear them in they are more comfortable than anything you've ever worn!  Use a shoe tree otherwise the uppers will crease badly after a while.

BRING ON THE CHRISTMAS SALES!

jb,  do you wear Florsheim?  Did you notice the prices drop dramatically about 4 years ago or was that just a thing in Oz?  Quality seems the same but they're about 25% cheaper than they used to be...

(I wear them because I need a EEE fitting not because they're "medium priced, semi-dressy")