How to juggle the WMVM (Write many visit Many)

[2tallbill]

In my trip report (trippin in St Pete) Kuna asked a good question about how to juggle or manage meeting several women without hurting feelings etc. I know that there are veterans here that have managed to do this with great success. I have never been good at this and now that I am in St Pete and my plan A fell apart I am scrambling for plans b,c,d.........I am somewhere around plan J.

Thanks

Bill

[I/O]

Bill: I have read your postings with great interest regarding your travel thus far.  I am new to this forum, but not new to these types of forums in general and have some experience in the FSU both with tourist type travel and also relationship visits.

Your question regarding how to juggle visiting several women without offending anyone or all.  My answer if I could have given it to you before you left would have been an emphatic. DON'T DO IT...!!

I guess that wasn't quite what you wanted to hear, but there is an old saying from Russian tradition which is applicable here, the fox who chases many rabbitts, catches none.  I have to say that if you are doing this through direct personal contact, then you are walking a tight rope and most likely will fall with one leg either side of the rope.  I think you can figure out where I am going. 

Frankly, I think you now have no choice but to use an agent.  I understand they are plentiful and the women who will meet you via an agent at short notice will understand and accept that you are shopping.  I know exactly what mine would have said to me if she had been part of a number that I was meeting.  She would have told me in Fluent Russian and Broken English to "Go to Hell".

I strongly feel that going to Russia or the FSU with the idea of meeting several ladies, greatly lessens the chance of ultimate success.  I also have noticed over a period of time that men who adopt this policy, generally feel that they are hedging their bets and hopefully reducing the number of trips they may have to make.  Experience and observation tell me that the usual result is quite the  contrary.  I have noticed them going back again and again, usually thinking, perhaps there is a better one in the next city. 

As I remarked before, you probably did not want to hear that right now, but that is MHO.  Having said all of that, to put a positive spin on things, you have gained some insight and had an interesting time.  If I were in your position now, I would pursue an agent.  I am not a fan of most of the introduction agents, but I am sure there is good ladies to be discovered through some of them.

I/O who can be a bit blunt at times, but can't see how anyone can hope to develop a lasting relationship with a lady whilst he is thinking about the next lady.

[Rvrwind]

Horsepucky!!! Is all I have to say to that.
If your meeting immature children, yeah I can see a problem with it. But any mature woman is doing the same thing, she is shopping for the best possible fit in her life. I dated many ladies in Russia before I found the one that fit me & I was honest with all of them.
Don't play games, be upfront & if they have aproblem with it, move on. No woman in her right mind & who is mature & sensible is going to have a problem with it, agency or not, if she does, she probably ain't the one for you.
Any man who travels 5000 miles & spends thousands of $'s to see one woman is taking a huge risk, a risk I for one think is unnessessary. Mature women understand this & accept it as part of the search for the perfect mate, if they don't they are not ready for a mature relationship IMHO.
Sorry to hear your plan A fell apart Bill, but don't let that slow you down, date many, date often & if one tries to monopolize your time look for the reasons why. Most times its because she doesn't want you spending your money on anybody but her, not that she truly has a genuine interest in you. Be decisive, be the man & take the bull by the horns. You will be more respected for being honest & forthright than trying to hide it. Just explain you are looking for the perfect match for you & you can't do that by dating one woman. He!! even back home it was unheard of for me to date only one woman at a time, usually I had 3 or more on the go. I don't subscribe to the WOVO approach, it is high risk & not nessessary.
Have fun & enjoy.
You might consider getting in touch with my friend Phil D'Amour while you are there. He can be of great assistance.

[2tallbill]

I am not actually juggling several women, I am juggling zero women LOL

I wanted to post Kunas question here instead of in my trip report.

Rvrwind I would like to contact your friend Phil D'Amour send me a PM or feel free to call me on my local cell phone 89213895476


Thanks

[I/O]

Rvrwind: I am sorry that my view effectively throws an arrow at your marketing ideas, but I am supported by a good deal of experience, several ladies and not least of all one of the leading lights in the introduction industry right now, namely a lady who we all know, originally from Russia, now married to a South African guy and livng quite near to my city here in Australia.

Yeah for sure date 'em all, meet 'em all and have 2 or 3 on the go at any one time. One thing is garrenteed, you will keep 'em comming right on back.  I've seen it too many times.  Sorry to say, if that set of standards is the standards you are running your agency by, then you have some gall being involved in any other entity which is claiming to have an ethos of cleaning up the industry.

This is exactly the type of attitude I was driving at in my other post when I made the remark about puting the "Fox in charge of the hens".

I don't want to turn this into some sort of flame and I will butt out of this debate henceforth, but you appear to be more interested in protecting your own business interests than dealing in truths.  I have no doubt you did date many and have played the game and that is your personal choice, but it is not a very ethical way in which to encourage others.

I/O who has begun to revert to his original view regarding agents.

[Bruce]

I/O - I agree with Rver 100%.   Any women who is not mature enough to handle a guy comming to Russia from the West and meeting many women prior to finding his one is not the right woman for him anyway.  Yes, there is a niche, albeit very small, for the ultraromantic individuals on both sides of the Atlantic who do meet on a WOVO after extensive letter writing.  Since letter writing is risky in itself, even this start is problematic.  Still, with time and phone calls / emails a guy can go over and rarely click.  Usually, the American who is successful with a WOVO is like Turbo ie. they have met a ton of FSU women prior to finding the one on a WOVO. 

[Kuna]

I don't want to turn this into some sort of flame and I will butt out of this debate henceforth, but you appear to be more interested in protecting your own business interests than dealing in truths.  I have no doubt you did date many and have played the game and that is your personal choice, but it is not a very ethical way in which to encourage others.

I/O,

Please excuse a blind newbie for having an opinion but I think your post is VERY harsh.

I think there are several legitimate paths that we can take on this journey and I would never believe that any one approach is right for everybody.

As you read through the trip reports you'll see the different approaches that have worked for different people. The one I would be particularly uncomfortable with probably most closely mimicks my dating approach at home.  "Speed dating", but not at organised events.  I went through a period of "sport dating" where I could collect anything up to 10 girls phone numbers per week and I'd call and filter until I got to 3-5 new dates every week.

I guess in short... most people can't Power Date on home soil.  I do, but don't want to in FSU. 

Would I go to meet one after writing to one?  Possibly, but only if I was only writing to one who was of genuine interest...

I agree in essence with what Rvrwnd is saying in that if a girl is unreasonable about me "meeting" ONLY them while there, I'm better off without her.  I expect a girl to try to see my perspective as much as I will try to accept her perspective.

I think:
a) Agencies that charge a monthly fee (Like EM) benefit more from guys that WOVO.  They WANT you to stay subscribed for a long time and take many trips;
b) Agencies that are geared towards FSU Style Speed dating want you on the ground and in their offices, apartments, and cars.. with translator in tow, staying for as long as, and churning through as many "meetings" as possible, and;
c) Agencies that Charge for Correspondence WANT you to write to many and I don't think they'd care how many you visit, or if you visit... In my opinion these are the worst!

I think that the ONLY thing that's definitely OUT is lying to the girls. If we lie, we deserve a whole world of pain.

I/O, There's no need to butt out of this debate.  This board encourages intelligent debate but of course personal attacks would be frowned on.

Again, I'm a newbie and never been there.  I've dated Russian girls here... I grew up in a very Euro family... I'm not "without experience" at home.  I think everyone needs to understand themselves and the best approach for them before getting on a plane... but most importantly, we've all got to get on a plane IF we're serious!

Just my uninformed opinion,

Kuna

[Rvrwind]

I have no doubt you did date many and have played the game and that is your personal choice, but it is not a very ethical way in which to encourage others.  

Why is it not ethical?
If you are honest from the jump & all the players know the rules & they all follow them I see nothing wrong with it. I do however see a problem with encouraging a WOVO approach to put more money in the agencies pocket & less in the clients.
To me that is unethical. Most guys spend a lot of money on this endeavour & to lessen that to me, would seem to be a practical goal. It has nothing to do with me being an agency. it has to do with being practical.
Looking for a perfect partner or near perfect as you can get in your life is no more or less like shopping for a house or a car, except the human emotion factor. Did you buy the first car you saw, did you buy the first house you looked at? Of course not. So why should you marry the first woman you meet?
It is even more complicated than that & I have just simplified it to make a point.
When it is a dating situation as we have here we also have the emotions of another party to consider. But consider too, that she is also 'shopping' for the perfect mate. Why then is it so wrng that he should be limited? Is it an ego thing? To find the perfect fit it any situation takes much care, thought & searching. Why not do it in one or two trips, saving yourself much time & money, rather than doing it in 10 or 12 trips, spending lots of money?
Any mature man or woman is aware that you cannot find the perfect mate if you only date one person. You need to compare, anylize & be sure that they are the one. By dating only one you have no frame of reference to judge if that person is right for you. To be able to 'shop' around you can be more decerning in your choice & therefore pick one that is more suited to you. That being said however, be aware that she too is making a choice as well & perhaps her's will not be the same as yours.
I am not saying your approach is wrong, everybody has their own & everybody does what they are most comfortable with. Its just my humble opinion that to spend thousands of dollars to have things fall apart, like has with Bill & to not have a backup plan is foolish. Now he sits twiddling his thumbs when he could have moved on & met others that may or may not be more suited to him. I would much rather he do that than do nothing, fly home & have to come back again in 2-3 months & spend more money to date 1 more woman & perhaps have it all fall apart again. To me that is a fools errand & with little chance of success. Believe me, I have seen it many, many, many times & the odds are not good for WOVO. The statistics alone bear that out.
Some people are not comfortable with that, no problem, if they are willing to take that chance thats their choice & I am not saying they shouldn't. But statistics do bear out that WOVO is very risky & chances of failure very high.
I don't consider or want this to be a flame fest but rather a mature debate by opposing forces inserting their ideas & wisdom. It is only in that way that the newbies can decern what is best for them, not for us to jab & throw spears. This has been debated many times & still in the end boils down to what is more suited for each individual. There is no right or wrong involved but more of a comforbility factor.
Bill I will send you Phils # in a PM.

[CaptB]

I/O,

I have to agree with RV. WOVO has proved risky at best. When writing "one" you have established "interest"........but a real relationship does not begin until you "meet". I have read well over 100 trip reports since I became interested in this process. There are several times the number of "crash & burns" with this method.......than in meeting "several". Back home.......at least in the USA........people "date". If they find someone who shares mutual interests.......and mutual chemistry........"then" they may become an exclussive couple. Until that happens.......most folks here may be dating more than one person at a time. Along with my belief of meeting more than "one"........is the idea of a very short letter-writing period. I used an agency in Tver. Six weeks or so.....before departure.....I wrote introductory letters to 16 women.......receiving 14 replys. Each of the women knew I would be meeting many. Before we talk about "hurt feelings".....I need to to point out that many of these women "also" saw several men while I was there. I could never have a problem with that. Guys who are possessive and jealous.......may have a promblem (they do) with this. My feeling is that I want the women to find their "best possible" match. If that turns out to be me........great. If it turns out to be another guy......and feelings are mutual.....good for them. The woman I became interested saw maybe 15 other guys during my three weeks there. She was very popular. I never expressed feelings to her......that I was unhappy about her meeting other men. I wanted that decission to be made by herself......not me. She never once expressed displeasure that I was meeting others......even after "chemistry" between us was apparrent. On a particular day after two weeks worth of introductions......I told my interpreter that I was no longer interested in meeting others.........I had decided to pursue "I". My interpreter's jaw dropped. She said that earlier in the day she was contacted by "I".......who also stated that she no longer had any interst in meeting others...........and not say anything to me about it. This is what can and "should" happen..........when feelings are really mutual.

When men have the attitude that they want to shield particulars about a women they have interest in............then they hav'nt reached a proper level of maturity...........the kind of maturity which allows you to put the other persons happiness before your own. Long letter writing to "one"........and building up hopes over a long period of time........only to crash during that first meeting (the odds are for this scenario)............................"is this really kinder, more respectfull, less hurtfull? The other scenario is sending out intro letters briefly before you depart for the FSU........expressing interest in meeting..........with a follow-up letter or two to learn more about each other...............and then meet. No long letter writing with ("assumed) exclussivity.......tying each other up for six or more months.......only to find upon meeting...........the perceived chemistry turned out to be virtual............not real. If you had met in a bar......at the grocery store etc..........as you would back home........you would found this out from a single date........or just upon a first meeting before a date even occurred.

I think the folks that are newbies.......and want it to happen with the first RW they meet (but have not made a first trip yet)..........and the (relatively) few who were successful using WOVO........will decry other methods (visiting many). The guy who wants to lasso a gal into exclussitivity......even before meeting (or likewise...the woman)............are they really being more "respectful" of the woman's feelings. I think a real man will put the feelings of the woman first.......even if it means........."another guy" is a more suitable partner......than himself".

I don't believe in "tours" whose primary focus is..........."socials". Socials are set-up in the "mans" favor......only". 10 to 1 odds (women to men) seems to be a comon ratio. Many women express feelings of degradation........"a meat market". In an agency setting this is not the case. Men and women can freely contact each other (in a legit agency). Men make the visit.......because they are financially able to. But having arrived in the women's city.......things become more even. Both men and women are free to contact each other.

My wife was in contact with several men......even during my visit...........so was I. Even though we had an idea that chemistry would be real upon actually meeting.......you don't "really" know until you meet. I never asked my wife to stop contact with other men......she never brought up the subject either. We both wrote respectful "goodbye" letters.......which received replies wishing "good-luck" from the other parties. I even sent an aquaintence a profile of a woman I had been writing (a very nice woman).......and told the woman about him.......and could I send him her contact info. Two months later she sent me an e-mail thanking me. He was coming to visit her in a few weeks (and did). Two trips later they became engaged.

Exclusivity......writing only one before meeting? I think it is a long-shot. For those who were successful with WOVO..........congratulations! But even some of those who were successful with this method on the RWD........said......in retrospect..................they were really lucky.


Capt B

[I/O]

Why is it not ethical?There is no right or wrong involved but more of a comforbility factor.

It seems some of us have opposing views on the definition of respect which is a fundimental part of the group of ethics which in my view should apply to marriage.  There is no hint of immaturity with a woman that will tell you to go to hell if she is simply a number in a line. But I will come back to that in a moment.

Couple of points to take up.  The purchase the car thing.  Sorry, yes I do purchase the first car I see and BTW I purchase about 40 per year.   But before Kuna makes an assumtion here, I use several different brands and purchase them from different companies.  Why do I not go to look.  Very simple. I am planning ahead and I do my home work, so the final inspection is simply to confirm my research and yes comfirm "Compatability". So yes, it is a very fair comparison. (All be it if slightly tounge in cheek)

I have no problem with the backup plan idea and this is where, and if you look at my reply to Bill, I feel that agencies have a very useful place.

As for the economics line, this again comes back to whether the guy is dating and hoping, or has a structured plan to find a lifetime partner.  If he has a structured plan, he is likely to have many less trips focusing on one woman each time with perhaps an agency as a backup if all else fails, than he is by meeting several on each trip. 

I have just seen so much of it and the normal thing is as Bill is now, having met 2 girls, at least one of which he wasn't convinced about in the first place.  I'm not saying this will happen to Bill, but here they go down to the bar and strip joint because all else has gone amiss, by the time the hookers have finished with him, and please don't dispute this, because I have seen it so many times, he will eventually go home and boast to his mates about all these cuties he bedded in Russia.  Meanwhile he could have paid the hookers in his home town and saved himself the bother of travel.  Yes a bit rough I know, but I think you guys can see my point.  If you can't, then you havn't stayed in a Hotel in Russia.

I am not blind to the fact that there is more than one way to do things, but I do rather scoff when others who have a vested interest in the industry push one particular point of view.  Richard, I'm sorry, you may be the most honorable agent under the sun, but the fact that you ahve a financial interest in the industry means that your views are always open to scepticism.  That may not be fair, but it is reality.

I acknowledge that I jumped straight back at the "Horsepucky" remark and treated it with the contempt it deserved.   However, I have spent the last hour engaged in a 5 way conversation with mine, her sister, and two of their friends.  I admit that the demographic is likely to have similar views, but to background it a little. 20-30 years, 2 divorced, 1 single with a child, 1 single without a child.  Reasonably fair representation of Russian women who may seek a foreign husband.

The question I posed was this, at first to mine, but all were involved.  "XYZ If I was arriving in Russia for our first meeting and we hoped something serious might develop between us and I also advised you that I may meet with some other women, what would your response be?"

These are the responses from a combination of 4 Russian women.

I would not began to meet you because I not in shop that you chose me or other girl

I am confident that such men which meet many girls in Russia will not find anybody for family

has no respect it unequivocally    To me such are opposite

I know that Lxxx met with such of marriage agency, the chief of this agency has organized this meeting, but Lxxx did not wish to go at first and has then gone because it was curious to look at such type of the man and simply to be at restaurant

It speaks that if it wants it as a toy Lxxx too wishes to eat at restaurant as with a toy

But it is possible that this person has thought that it with serious intentions has come to have supper with it, but it not so, and easier to eat, in fact Lxxx will lose nothing

It is certainly interesting to it that for such superman? Which in great demand at girls

Girls such men start to scoff and extort money or clothes

Therefore men in it very often too are guilty, they do not receive sincerity in exchange

So, make of it what you will, but that is the combined and completely unified response of 4 girls from Russia within the last 2 hours and BTW Lxxx = another girlfriend of theirs who was not present.

I/O who would prefer to have it from the mouth of those who the visitor from the west would wish to meet. 

[Turboguy]

Usually, the American who is successful with a WOVO is like Turbo ie. they have met a ton of FSU women prior to finding the one on a WOVO. 

I have probably been at this a little longer than most and made a few more trips than many of the others.   I can look back on a  lot of the methods I was using as really stupid on my part but at the time I did not have RWD to learn from and had to use trial and error.   One trial that is an error can burn up a lot of time and money and you can always just blame something else other than the method and have to repeat your mistake a few times before you are sure it is the system you are using that is flawed.

My two cents worth are that I agree with everything posted here.   Anything can work.   Some people can succeed without even looking for a RW.  About the only method with a 100% failure rate is sending travel or visa money to the smoking hot gal that wrote you from yahoo and says she is coming to America and wants to spend the summer with you.

I also agree that some methods will have a higher success rate than others and probably the highest success rate is to make a trip where you meet many women.  

I think another factor to look at is what feels comfortable to the guy.  Some may be more comfortable with one system or another.  

To me one of the lowest chances of success is with tours.  I will make one exception to that and that is Jack's tours which are a little different than the others I see.   I think where these really are a good option is for a first trip when someone feels more comfortable with someone holding their hand.   One other thing that can be a time and money saver is that Jack works with a lot of different agencies and it lets you get a feel for working with an agency and knowing the good and bad agencies.   Making a trip and picking the wrong agencies can burn more time and money than the extra cost of Jack's services.  

One thing to think about when you have a woman who is not happy that you are meeting others is:  If a guy with good potential came to her city a week after you left and wanted to meet her would she meet him?   If she will meet others then there is nothing wrong with you meeting others.

It is possible to develop a lot of chemistry with someone through letters.   Yes, you can go and find the exact person you thought you were writing.  The odds of that are not real good.  Most of the time you will find qualities you did not expect, a total lack of chemistry, or some other problems that has you kicking yourself for doing a WOVO.   Of course sometimes you will get lucky.

[KenC]

I/O,
I think your difference of opinion here is just a difference in timing.  When do you narrow the field to just one woman?  Because we all have to get down to just one woman eventually.  You are condoning making that decision prior to a face to face and there are a lot of pitfalls in such a way that are simply not necessary for most RW.

You are making decisions based on what, exactly?  Emails and phone calls?  Now I admit that you are a prolific writer and you may be able to communicate in a written medium better than the average guy, but all could have been for naught if you and your lady didn't click upon first sight.  My wife and I are very verbal people and we formed a bond via the phone prior to meeting, but we both held back and tried not to get too deeply involved prior to our face to face meeting 8 years ago.  But I still met other RW and she had no problem with it at all.

There are certain stages to any developing relationship.  Introduction and getting to know the basics about each other are the first and can quite easily be handled via phone or email.  But the next stage of developing a chemistry is much more difficult if not impossible to obtain without face to face time.  Most guys don't know much more about the woman or women in this case than what is on her profile.  That isn't enough to narrow the field to one.

Women who list themselves with an agency are less likely to put up a fuss about the man meeting others because they know the drill.  They know that you are there for an introduction first and then if it "clicks" maybe more.  I went to Russia to meet my wife, but the agency convinced me (rightfully so) to meet others too.  Even though it became quickly apparent that my wife and I had something very special between us, I am glad I did meet others too.  Meeting other RW made me realise that she was a very special woman to me and that I wasn't being overwhelmed by her just being a Russian woman or that she was just young and beautiful (because the others were beautiful, young and Russian too).
KenC
(BTW, I stopped meeting others because I felt uncomfortable for them because I didn't think it fair as my heart was already taken)

[I/O]

Turboguy & Ken: To substantiate my view, I would simply refer you to my earlier post and the opinions of the Russian women who have spoken on this subject today.  However, it is only fair to this debate to go further, because to simply do that is dismisive and unproductive.

You will note in my early post that I noted women using agencies are far more likely to be receptive to multiple suiters or meetings.   I also said that if he was meeting several by direct contact (In other words no agent) then I felt he was most likely to come un stuck. 

The really interesting thing that seems to be coming out of this thread and I suspect this is one piece of very good advice for the new commers, is that it is not that likely you will meet the love of your life on the first trip to the FSU.  Yes possible and some have, but whether you use the multiple or single meeting method, you are usually lucky if you meet Ms Perfect first up.  

Certainly Ken, I do place very high value on the written word, however the reason I do so, is that I write as I speak.  I don't think anyone has to be very clever to get a fair handle on another person from a few letters.  Certainly there is much more than letters to developing a relationship.

If I could strike some middle ground out of this, I would suggest to any new commer, a first trip as a tourist to Russia is not a bad idea, simply to gain an appreciation of the culture and lifestyles.  From there, I think one is much better equipped to understand the Russian lady in her letters.

I would also suggest that if the newcommer plans to complete the entire mission, that is have his lovely Russian wife in his home in USA, Au or wherever else, much inside 5 trips in total, he might be being a bit hopeful. Gulp....yes that might sober a few people and I am sure many have done it with a lot less, but I feel I am being realistic here.

Now to be fair to all and give you all the chance to call me a complete idiot, which I probably am, mine and I broke every rule in the book to get this far.  I havn't the time to explain that it was a very unique set of circumstances which looks something different on the face of it, but here it is.......

We only exchanged email letters and 2 surface mail letters during 9 months. 
She approached me first.
We met by internet introduction site.
We met in my country first and she stayed in my home.
I invited her.
I paid for her trip.
Jointly we arranged a tourist, yes tourist visa for her.
Yes I did send her the money for the ticket.
We never, I repeat never spoke by telephone or any other voice communication media prior to her arriving in Au.
Hello. was about the limit of her English when she arrived in Au. (No shots from the USA boys about Aussie English please) 

The list could go on and on. But surfice to say, we broke every rule in the book and I would never recommend anyone else do this.  Certainly there was a good deal of checking and disclosure on both parts prior to money transfers etc and it is not necessary to go into that here. But basically we had letters and webcam to know each other from, period.

I don't consider our success thus far is contingent on luck in any way shape or form.  We did our homework extensively and I feel that has been the key. 

I also would like to add, that I never went searching in the first instance for a Russian woman.  Certainly I wanted to scope outside my local area, but I will admit that amoung local contacts and for than matter in my street, there is several very suitable and attractive ladies, form which group I am reasonably confident I could find a partner if I so chose.

So where have we gotten to guys?  Seems the middle ground is meet several but do it through an agent.  Hmmmm  go for it, but I simply couldn't bring myself to do that. 

I/O Who has very much enjoyed this thread and hopes that the new comers will read and not be too confused.

[Turboguy]

If I could strike some middle ground out of this, I would suggest to any new commer, a first trip as a tourist to Russia is not a bad idea, simply to gain an appreciation of the culture and lifestyles.  From there, I think one is much better equipped to understand the Russian lady in her letters.

I won't call you an idiot because I agree with everything you said.  Your comment that I quoted though I am not so sure I agree with.   My idea of going as a tourist is that you are going to take a tour through the Kremlin and some museams and I am not sure it would give you much understanding of a Russian lady.

I think a good option is to meet a few ladies and do some sightseeing but not have your hopes up of meeting the woman of your dreams.  Here is a place where writing a few and meeting a few would fit in perfectly.

A really good first option would be to go on one of Jack's tours.  Notice I am not saying AFA's tours or others.  (Jack, I am beginning to think you owe me a dinner or something)   My reasons for saying this are first that you have the comfort of going with a group and having the difficult part of things arranged.   Second, you get fully immersed in the process of meeting RW and working with agencies, third you have the advantage of having others with you, sharing ideas with them, seeing what works for them and kicking ideas back and forth. 

To be honest, even as much as I have been around the processes and kicked around ideas and methods on RWD I learned a lot on Jack's trip that really changed my mind about things.   I think someone doing something like that could give him the experience that it would take many trips to do otherwise.   I am not saying Jack's are the only good tours but the big agency ones have a bad process and have you around brainwashed newbies that will have you learning nothing except wrong ideas.  There may be some other agency tours that are good, I just have no experience of them or knowledge of them.

One other comment on a different subject but one you touched on.  Meeting gals through an agency I see nothing wrong with meeting 2-3-4 girls a day or more if you want.  If you meet one you have written to for months and months I agree, you owe her more time.  I would say two days minimum.   If you wrote one letter and said you would be in her town in two weeks and would she like to meet then, yes, a lunch is all you owe her.

[I/O]

I won't call you an idiot because I agree with everything you said.  Your comment that I quoted though I am not so sure I agree with.   My idea of going as a tourist is that you are going to take a tour through the Kremlin and some museams and I am not sure it would give you much understanding of a Russian lady.

Turboguy My lazy writing probably failed me again here.  Yes in general terms I would go along with that, and I guess I was speaking from my perspective and as is probably obvious, I am something of a non conformist.  Therefore I studiously avoid the "Big Ticket" tourist spots.  Sure I have been there and seen them too, but I much prefer to get into the out of the way places or perhaps smaller cities.  For example my first trip into Russia required entry via Moscow, but I picked the furtherest reasonable point east which was Irkutsk and flew directly there and trundled my way back to Moscow over a 3 week period.

I think I have something of an ability to asses my surroundings fairly quickly and fit in to some extent.  The way it worked for me, was the pouring rain on arrival in Irkutsk airport forced me to run to the nearest mini bus which obviously would be going somewhere into the city.  I figured I would sort it out as I went.  I had no Russian language whatsoever at the time. None.  Zero.  As it turned out, the driver had a few words in English and one thing led to another and he ended up taking me to my hotel.  Long story short, the next day I checked out of the hotel and stayed with him, his wife and daughter for a few days and we had a wow of a time.

His lovely 14 y/o daughter decided that I was to be protected at all cost and I was taken by the arm everywhere I went. I treated them to a few days at a tourist base at Baikal and all in all it set the tone for my view of Russia.  I learnt more in those few days than I think anyone could in weeks of guided tours about Russia and Russian people/ladies/culture. 

Yes of course, not many people are mad enough to do what I did. But it was that venture that was ultimately the catylist with my fiance' at a later time.  A western man who did not speak Russian would be brave enough to have come into Siberia? ??? ??? ??? 

So, my view of tourist is perhaps different from others.  Yes.....those Aussies are mad..!!!!

I/O who from time to time dares to be different.

[Bruno]

My idea of going as a tourist is that you are going to take a tour through the Kremlin and some museams and I am not sure it would give you much understanding of a Russian lady.

Turbo, you have different type of tourism... so people choice to stay at hotel with western style, choose restaurent with Western food, visit only the tourist zone of city, etc...

Some like me hire a Russian appartment ( around 200 euro month ), buy food at the market, good to russian/ukrainian restaurant ( not these in center for tourist but these where go FSU people, they are cheap )... for activity, you have a lot of choice... Little FSU snooker palace ( great for dating ) or local bowling... take some beer and meat with you and go to the park... start a little wood fire and several people will join you... sharing beer, vodka and slaslick (?) ... if you can game "chess", go to the park and use these special table make for chess... it is always a attraction when a foreigner game against a russian men...

The big mistake of several is that when they visit a foreign country, they try to live like home and spring directly in the tourist trap... try to live like the local one, mix with then... and you will enjoy your stay ( in FSU, be carefull about headcache the day after )...

I have learn like FSU people before like FSU women...

[Turboguy]

Thanks for your comments Bruno.  I think I was not clear in what I was trying to say.  I/O had made the comment that he thought people should make one trip as a tourist before they start meeting women to get to know a bit about life in Russia. 

I was basically agreeing with the points you made.  If someone goes and stays in the Holiday Inn, and tours the Kremlin and some museums he will get little feel for life in Russia.  Yes you do get to observe everyday Russians in the environment to an extent. 

Even in my early trips to Europe long ago I usually tried to stay in hotels the natives stayed at.  I found it cool to see the goofy toilets, the bidets,  some of the strange beds, tiny elevators and long hallways all cut up. 

I agree with you that most would be better off avoiding the western restaurants and sampling the local cuisine.   Personally I wish I were not such a picky eater so I could enjoy that too.  I can't even enjoy a meal in a 5 star restaurant here.  As far as the headache the next day, it is not a problem I have.  I am not much of a drinker.  It is probably better.  I am sure most Russians could drink me under the table without trying. 

[SANDRO43]

I found it cool to see the goofy toilets, the bidets ...

It always puzzles me why you Transatlantics should have cultural problems with such a useful hygienic installation . 

Consider its history and that of your early postal system, maybe you'll find it less scary : 
Bidet is a French word for pony (and in Old French, bider meant to trot). This etymology comes from the fact that one bestrides or rides a bidet much like one does a pony.

[Photo Guy]

Bill,
Plan 'j'?!!

I think we all handle dating differently. I suspect that one's approach is usually based
on the approach already used here in the West with local women.

A common approach that I have observed in the last twenty years, is for
guys and gals to pair up extremely quickly. Way too quickly.

Back in the 1950's, you had something called 'going steady'.
In subsequent years, many couples did not discuss 'going steady', instead it
became a murky area, where it was assumed that there was a state of
'commitment', when in reality there was no mutual agreement about it.

In the last twenty years, I have seen a social stigma develop-
when a guy dates a number of women at once, he is labeled 'a player'
or sometimes 'cheating on his girlfriend', etc. I think that stigma
resulted in 'serial dating'. Many people would form deep connections
with inappropriate partners, and basically acted 'married' for periods
ranging from months to years. That became a norm, a standard behavior.

The multiple dating scenario had disappeared for most people. The old days
of dating a number of people and meeting at the soda shop were gone.
Society had shifted to having serial lovers, which may or may not lead
to official 'marriage'.

How do I feel about this? I think the old way makes more sense, where you
hang out with many different women, discover exactly what you want in
a woman, and with the numbers game, eventually find that appropriate gal.

From a logistical standpoint, meeting many women in the FSU makes a lot
of sense. I recommend that protocol for those who are able to handle it.

Like others have said, you juggle them by being honest with them.
If they don't ask, don't tell.  The juggling rules are very vague. Some women
will wonder why you haven't phoned them in a couple of days, and others
will be angry when you tell them you are busy with another woman.
(society's stigma)  Often, the 'right' woman will be the person who
handles the chaos and unpredictablilty of Transnational Dating. Those types
are more grounded and more fllexible, ...but sometimes more desperate.
 

 

[Rvrwind]

Richard, I'm sorry, you may be the most honorable agent under the sun, but the fact that you ahve a financial interest in the industry means that your views are always open to scepticism.  That may not be fair, but it is reality.

Something I have learned to live with. However, I don't believe that makes my opinion any less valuable or incorrect.
I have mulled over what you have written & others & gone back to my own time in the beginning of this adventure & I think I have come up with the perfect situation. A situation which would have saved Bill & many others a lot of grief.
I have no fancy acronym for it but it basically it boils down to writing many ladies but coming to visit one with the rest as a backup plan. This could be accomplished very simply with or without an agency. The only one you tell when you are coming is your #1, should it fall apart you can contact the others & just tell them you decided to make an inpromptu visit & they will be pleasantly surprised to hear from you & more than willing to meet with you, I'm sure. Although this is a little deceptive, you can still maintain your ethical standards.
Myself, I came here to meet one, it went to he!! in the first hour. Having spent a considerable amount of money & taking time away from my buisness for one month, that did not set well. Fortunately for me I took jb's advice & set up a backup plan with an agency. Even then none that I had in my backup plan worked either. In fact the one I chose in the end went south on me 2 weeks after I returned home. So even that doesn't always work.
I did however meet another lady towards the end of my trip that I had excellent chemistry with but we just didn't get to spend much time together. After contacting her by email I made my second trip to see only her. I lived with a Russian couple for 3 months, in-laws of a friend, & dated only her. The rest is history, we have been married for three years going on four & she wasn't even on my radar when I came here on my first trip & I probably wouldn't have dated her had my terp not suggested it as her pictures really sucked!! She didn't fit my criteria at all when I read her profile but after having met her, I knew I had to get to know her better. Now I know her more than I'd like to, LOL . Seriously she is a great lady & I love her to death & everybody who has met her likes her, totally the opposite of what I saw in her profile & pics. LOL
What I am trying to say I guess is life is full of surprises. Don't limit yourself as you may pass up a gem that could be a diamond in the rough. I dated almost 40 women that first trip & not all of them with or through the agency. I had a great time but I also began to realize things about me that made me change the way I looked at the women I was dating & how I evaluated our interaction. It was that experience gained that gave me the convidence I needed to make the decision I finally made & knew that it was the right decision.
Its been a blast & I have no regrets.
By the way I/O just FYI. All the trips in the world pale in comparison to mine. I live here & have for three plus years. Your four responses from ladies are nothing compared to the input I get here on a daily basis. The most often stated is that if he is a Russian man, yes, he should date one & one only, but the rules change for foriegn men as they need to come a long way to meet them. That is the most prevelant answer I have recieved & sorry I still believe that any woman that is not accepting of that is not worth my time. Its a maturity thing, wether you believe that or not. The ones that answer negatively to that question are usually under 30, they havn't lived yet. Over 30 they have matured enough to accept the rules of the mating game. Your idea is if we date once we are commited, I don't think so, that certainly doesn't work for me & I certainly don't & wouldn't by the first car I see.

[I/O]

I/O had made the comment that he thought people should make one trip as a tourist before they start meeting women to get to know a bit about life in Russia. 

I probably should clarify this remark a little.  I guess I would not necessarily push strongly for someone to do this, but I can see, looking back that it was extremely helpful to me and as such, I suspect it may well have saved on the overall number of purpose specific trips I might have otherwise made.

Three things I am sensing out of this and I may well be wrong, but I'd like to table these thoughts anyway to spread the terms of reference on this discussion a little.

1) The pre travel time one devotes to communication with a lady.  I have been one historically to get my feet in the water as quick as possible so to say, however in my relationship with my fiance', for a range of reasons, this was simply not possible.  The result was, forced long distance communications for a fair period of time.  I can't help but wonder if this was a major part of our success thus far.  We certainly had our time to sift out the "No - Go's" during that time. 

2) I am wondering how many guys here in this particular thread have spent much or any time east of the Urals? Strange question? No.  Russia in my experience, geographically, topographically, culturally and most importantly, attitudinally changes dramatically as one travels east from Moscow.  Ukraine also varies greatly depending on location.  I don't want to move into a Geo political discussion, but it does have something to do with political history amoung other things.  Back to the question.  West Russian experience or whole of Russia experience?

3) This is not meant to be a cheap shot, but I am noticing a very "American" approach to this process (Not the debate, rather the subject of the debate) and a such, I am scratching my head a little.  Let me explain.  I think it is reasonable to assume, that without casting dispersions on American Women, probably the number one reson men look to the East and Russia in particular for a partner is that they are looking for something different.  Not better or worse, simply different. This being the case, to set "American Style" rules of engagement seems rather odd to me, because from the very outset this is saying, we want an Eastern set of standards from you, but we will force you to do things on our terms.  It seems further strange to me that some want to apply this whilst in Russia, her country.

When I consider this it does rather seems to be somthing of a parodox in thinking.  I have seen the western part of Russia become more "Westernised" (No puns intended) over the last few years, but it is worth remembering, particularly for the new commers, Russia is not, never has been and in my view, never will be a "Americanised" country as such. 

The term "Dating" has for example, in my country been a relatively recent term.  "Going with", "Going out with" or in earlier times, "Going Steady with" were the common terms whilst dating by name and by definition have been a relatively new development. North America is vastly different culturally, stylistically and attitudinally from Europe and even more different from Eastern Europe. Thus, I wonder when seeking a partner from these countries is applying American style ethos to the process the best way to go?

Richard, I have read your recent post and am delighted to see that you have "Mulled over it all" because at the end of the day, each will make his or her own decisions and only an ability to think about it will lead one to a good decision.  I note that Mr Carniegie (Spelling..!!) is right yet again, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"..!!  However, the one point where I would blatently tell you you are wrong is on the maturity thing. Applying the word maturity to this in the sense it has been here is laughable,  "Maturity by American Dating Principals" yes maybe, but Russia and for that matter, the vast majority of the world ain't the "Good ol' US of A" or Canada for that matter either.    If you ask most people around the world about maturity in a relationship, you will most commonly get an answer along the lines of "Ability to see it through in the long term". 

I also discount the relevance of your dismissal of the sample of opinions posted earlier as being immature because of age.  You are an agent and no doubt have a good number of clients, but have a look on the websites and then come back and tell me the majority of FSU girls listed are +30... I DON'T think so... and the majority of men searching are generally looking for someone in the 23-33 age group.  To say that someone under 30 hasn't lived doesn't even bare serious response.

I think you might be narrowing the goal posts a little as the discussion goes in order to justify a point.  Shoot me...!! I deserve it.

I/O who happens to like America and has enjoyed the USA immensly on several occaisions.

[Kuna]

I also discount the relevance of your dismissal of the sample of opinions posted earlier as being immature because of age.  You are an agent and no doubt have a good number of clients, but have a look on the websites and then come back and tell me the majority of FSU girls listed are +30... I DON'T think so... and the majority of men searching are generally looking for someone in the 23-33 age group.  To say that someone under 30 hasn't lived doesn't even bare serious response.

   I can see the age debate coming up again...   

[I/O]

  I can see the age debate coming up again...   

Bring it on......!!  I've broken all the rules everywhere else and probably in that area also. 

I/O who believes you are not as old as you feel, but rather as old as "Who" you feel.

[groovlstk]

Sorry if I'm late to this debate but I've been spending every waking and sleeping moment accommodating my fiancee. Tomorrow I return to work and she's on her own for the first time since she arrived in the US two weeks ago, so we're both a bit sad and nervous.

Anyway, I/O, I'm guessing you've never had the displeasure of sitting in the departure lounge at SVO or KBP a week or two after a WOVO experience that went tits up within the first few hours, and for lack of a good backup plan you ended up blowing a week or two of vacation along with a few thousand dollars. It's not a pleasant feeling and the 10-hour return flight is the final slap in the face.

It happened to me on more than one occasion before I wised up and learned to be a bit selfish, to look out for #1. In my opinion, guys going into this pursuit with lofty notions of chivalry based on cowboy movies or King Arthur-ish fairy tale strategies that may have worked for them with Western women are more likely to be used and kicked around like a soccer ball in the FSU, or to simply return home empty-handed time and time again.

I'm not sure what you mean by an "American approach" - do you refer to a strategy that is methodical, efficient, yet decidedly un-romantic, such as WMVM?

 

[jinx13]

I

/O who believes you are not as old as you feel, but rather as old as "Who" you feel.

 

 Had to laugh at that, good one I/O  

 My first trip was a WOVO, with no back up plan, by the 3rd day I realized I needed a back up, but was so disappointed that it wasn't working with the main girl that my heart wasn't in it. Rookie mistake...I think the newbie should keep his expectations low, think with his BIG head, but also follow his heart to a point, but don't become emotionally attached to someone through letters and phone calls, nothing matters but real life meetings, I learned the hard way.

 As far as "juggling" multiple girls, I say keep it simple, don't over do it. Two dates a day allows you to spend quality time with the woman without having to rush. The don't ask don't tell policy works best, and the women seem to follow this policy as well, don't ask her if she has a Russian Boyfriend, you might not want to know the answer!