How necessary English?

[BillyB]

When I went writing to over 600 women, I had English speaking women in mind but my fiancee was one of the worst English speaking ladies out of the lot at probably basic level instead of intermediate that was advertised in her profile. She never planned her destiny to marry a foreigner and she learned German in school along with English but it took her some time to remember all she learned. I almost dumped her because of her lack of English but.....through writing I learned more about her than any fluent English speaking woman corresponding with me. I did not think that could happen but it can. She is a superior woman in every way to the others and when I visited her she showed herself to be elegant and classy. You can't take elegance and class away from a woman if she has it. Even with weaker English than most women I wrote to,  she expressed herself through E-mails and an electronic translator better than most. She made other women look intellectually plain although they may speak fluent English.

Another man, through back channels, told me he used my methods to write mass women. He has doctors that want to meet him but he chose to visit a woman that feeds his soul more than any and although he knows more about her than any other woman, she speaks basic English but on her own is studying. After he described his correspondence to me, I told him he had a gem there but I didn't tell him to visit that woman or the doctor. He went to visit that woman and told me she is superior in every way to any other women he's met. It has blown him away about the quality of this woman. This is coming from a man who dated dozens of FSU women and after many failures, he finally understands what I know, that these women exist. He said her conduct was genuine and superior to all others he met and through the translator and her conduct,  he understood her mind and recognized she's is a near perfect woman who is trying her best to learn English to please her man.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not putting my story up to say it can happen. I know the odds and I would promote all men to  search for a woman with a common language. Most men have a hard time separating the wheat from the chaff when it comes to women so why make it harder when you don't understand each other? Some people can see what a person writes and understand the person behind the words, most can't. But I do realize there are gems out there that don't speak English or Russian or speak any language at all but they can be a superior woman in every way than an English speaking woman and can convey that to you through their through their attitude, conduct and efforts to understanding every word you speak or write and their efforts to answer every question of yours thoroughly. The secret to me finding an excellent woman was not about English ability although it was one of my requirements, it was my effort to communicating with hundreds of women to increase my odds.

But regardless if you're looking for a gem fluent in English or not, here in Russia or America, You should improve your odds by contacting/associating with hundreds of women to compare who's best and most compatable or you can do as most guys did and restrict your search to a few and depend on luck. Limiting your choices is probably the biggest reason for failure coming into play. Not many people find their perfect match by associating with one or a few women. If you did find her by imposing restrictions on yourself, count your lucky stars.

Legal, when one or two people misunderstands each other and act angry causing damage to their relationship, it's a sign of immaturity. In the nearly two years I've known my fiancee, there has never been an argument and if she doesn't understand me, we will discuss it with each other like adults. Since I don't act like an a@@hole, there is not much for her to be angry about. I have never met a woman, other than me fiancee, who wanted to understand me and accept the fact I'm a man and do things certain ways, admires it and accept it like an adult.

[LEGAL]

Billyb I wasn't thinking of anger, more on the line of frustration. There is no doubt as you stated and I have seen there are people that act out in the manner. Like you Olga and I have a very loving relationship built on great communication as well as many other quality's. I hope this helps if I misstated.


LEGAL

[Turboguy]

I never put English speaking ability high on my list of priorties when I was searching but I think to an extent even if you don't make it a priority that it becomes a big factor.   I think when you are getting to know someone you have a much better chance of establishing raport and chemistry if you can communicate. 

Some feel any girl who wants to meet a foreign man should learn English.   I can't disagree with that but I am sure some gals look at it more as a dream or a possibility than something they are sure is going to happen.  Another factor is that a lot of women are just lookng for a good man and he could well come from Italy or France or Germany where Engish is not the language she would need to learn. 

I think if I had found a girl who did not know much English and we were planning a future and she was not making an effort to be able to communicate I might take that as a big red flag.

[Gator]

A few thoughts from a man dating a woman with only basic English skills:

1.   It is not easy. 
2.   The courtship will take more time than with a woman conversant in English.  Yet, I spent 3 years with a RW fluent in English.
3.   There is a lot of opportunity for misunderstanding.  A woman who is intransigent, quick to jump to conclusions, not inquisitive, etc.  would not get far.
4.   Communication is essential and that eventually requires a common language.
5.   A woman’s progress in learning English is a measure of how serious she is to marry.
6.   Just because she does not speak English well does not mean she is “speechless.”  In the case of my lady, it comes out freely - in Russian and English, and mostly in animation (she is a “live wire”).  She communicates as well as some RW who were at Level III (of five levels).   I suppose if she were reserved and reticent, there would be a lot of silence.  Yet, she is not that way.
7.   From having dated about 20 RW(at least spending an evening together at a restaurant), I assert that RW knowing English are not more demanding; however, they are in more demand.  They have had more exposure to Gringos and can more quickly cut through the Booolsheeeeet.
8.         All those "converse in reverse" questions can be answered with something called an "interpreter", especially if the interpreter is good at assisting romantic relationships.

[Gator]

Olga wrote,

And really intelligent woman begins to learn the foreign language before her search not after.

My lady certainly seems intelligent.  However, because she does not speak my language I guess she isn’t.  Thanks for informing me of this fact  -  it would have been a disaster to marry a peasant. 

Now please tell me how I should get rid of her without hurting her feelings.  How about this?  She is Level II-III in Deutsch  from having worked in Germany on assignments.  Maybe someone could introduce her to a good man from Germany.  She naturally will choose him over me because she knows the most important requirement is to speak the same language.  But I forget - she is not intelligent, so how will she know it is the most important factor, especially when she did not like the previous Germans who wrote her.

[LEGAL]

Gator, please reread Olga's post I think you misunderstood.

LEGAL

[KenC]

Billy,
Very good post.  I have a couple of comments though.  First of all your girl did have some English abilities. maybe not as strong as others, but she did have a leg up on the issue.  Your friend's girl was in a similar position and she was making steps to correct her deficiency.  If a girl has some base of English skills and is showing good motivation to improve the communication gap, but there still was the ability to communicate.

Having the ability to communicate in a common language does not insure that the woman is of good character or that she is a good match for the man.  It only gives the man a much better level of information in which to pass such judgements.  No one is  saying English speaking RW are good and those with out English skills are bad.  It is just there is no way of truly knowing if they are good or bad, or if they are sincere in their feelings toward you, or if or if or if........  The end results are you just cannot know her to the depths necessary to make a good decision.

BTW, your shot gun approach to finding a lady in Russia are very good, but there are quite a few men here (me included) that hit the jackpot with meeting few or in some cases a chance meeting of one.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Heck Gator, there are probably lots of guys here who would be happy to take her off your hands for you.   I have to agree with you that you can communicate far more than most would expect even with no common language.    Yes, an interpreter can help make sure you have common goals.   I do think once you commit to a woman, which you are close to doing but have not done, then she should try hard to learn the language.  She will need it.

[LEGAL]

Gator,
In my previous post I wrote "foreign language" I didn't write English or Italian.
If woman knows any foreign language she will be able to learn another  language, of course if she needs it and if it is her wish .
Olga.

[Muj]

Good points Gator.  Your misunderstanding in your TR highlights the difficulties in a relationship with a RW speaking very little English or common language.  A big red flag is a woman whose abilities improve slowly or none at all.

[KenC]

Gator,
I always was suspect of words coming from an interpreter.  Other than yes or no, or very black and white questions, how can you tell if the terp is not putting her spin on what she is saying?  And then there just are some conversations you should not include a third party into. 
Please remember that I used you as a good example of how a relationship could work with a non-English speaking woman.  You take the time for her English skills to catch up to the relationship.  With your Cossack's new focus on improving her skills, I am sure you and she will know exactly what you two are getting into before the wedding is planned.  As it should be.
KenC

[Gator]

Olga,

From having read many of your other posts, I know you are not the arrogant princessa suggested by your statement.  Which proves – even when two people speak the same language, some statements/events can be easily misunderstood.  Now add to the mix a large cultural difference and age difference, and misconceptions will flow rampantly. 

When something seems wrong or insulting or whatever, the man and woman must respect and trust each other and have the patience and determination to seek clarification.  From my experience, AW have more skills in this area than RW.

KenC,

I wrote that the terp had to be good at her job, not just using the technically correct words but in perceiving what could be misunderstood.  With a good terp whom the woman trusts, the RW will say anything as if speaking to a friend.  At least that is my current case where no subject is taboo.  Now is not the time to be holding anything back.

[LEGAL]

Gator,
I didn't say anything about respect, trust and patience. I agree with you it is inalienable parts, as the understanding and compromise, of good relations between two or ten people 

Olga.

[Photo Guy]

How patient should you be, in regard to the time required for her to learn your language?

How much can you learn about her, before she becomes proficient?

Can you determine if she is 'wife material' before she has learned your language?

[Rvrwind]

Okay, Okay, jb I apologize, I was a little over zealous with that statement including too wide a margin. Many of you have taken the time to learn & your right, I did not and still have not, but then I don't find it to be the barrier you all do and anybody who has seen my wife & I interact know that we are far above grunt & groan communication.
I still stand by what I said, that it makes little sense for the woman to learn English for possibly nothing. Most of the women will agree. However if her target market for a man is an English speaking country then I would agree that learning English would be in her best interests & certainly would open up more options for her. That being said I also feel that a woman that is open to any possible culture or relationship is only prudent in waiting till she has a specific target language to learn.
I am actually starting to take lessons here. Now that I am no longer employed working all night my life is actually turning around into a more civilized regimen & I ain't sleeping my days away & am awake when other people are awake, so I decided to do what I couldn't do before & that is learn more Russian.

[swindoom]

I cannot understand how you can correlate intelligence with someones ability to speak a foriegn language. Most English speaking westerners only speak English, therefore by your logic most English speaking westerners must be as thick as two short planks.

My lady did not speak English when we started communicating, she did know a very small amount of German which she had learnt years ago at school. She always received red diplomas and at Uni she was top of her class.

I for one am glad I was not so narrow minded as to exclude her because she could not speak English when we started writing to each other.

This is totally personal choice, there is no right or wrong.

[Bruno]

Only one question : Why language is always a problem on American forum ?

I am not sure but i think that i know why ! The big majority of American ( maybe not on these forum but in the MOB business ) speak only English... Everywhere they go, they are surprised that the rest of the world don't speak English... and a lot of them don't speak the second US current language ( Spanish )...

When i read European forum, language seem to be something no so much important... people adapt and try to understand each other... if me, a simple gardener who speak only 3 languages have no problem in FSU... why the high educated American who is a business man ( business mean contact with a lot of people around the world ) is not able to control the situation...

I have never use a interpreter in FSU, same when i was making the trip only for tourism... always good contact with local people and with time, we build a basic common dictionary for dialogue... sometime, mixing several language 

One other problem is maybe your too much perfect english... it have already happen here that i was able to understand a post write by a RW when American was not able... maybe because i make the same language mistake that a RW... if you speak english to a RW, speak like when you speak to a child... short simple sentence... usual words... etc...

Almost all FSU women speak two languages, a lot of them speak 3 languages... but it happen sometime that English is not one of these language... RW have enough brain for learn one language more... relate this to the standart American who know only English ( when it is not only a local American variante of English language)...

Before complain over the capability of RW about language, see if yourself are able to reach the level of these RW...

PS : I speak in general... these forum show a lot of man who have knowledge of several languages... but it is not the norm in the "business"...

[Turboguy]

I cannot understand how you can correlate intelligence with someones ability to speak a foriegn language. Most English speaking westerners only speak English, therefore by your logic most English speaking westerners must be as thick as two short planks.

My lady did not speak English when we started communicating, she did know a very small amount of German which she had learnt years ago at school. She always received red diplomas and at Uni she was top of her class.

I for one am glad I was not so narrow minded as to exclude her because she could not speak English when we started writing to each other.

This is totally personal choice, there is no right or wrong.

Personally Swindon, I think your post was right on.  If someone's intelligence was based only on thier ability to learn another language that would make me the dumbest person on the planet.  Three years of French in School and 8 years of playing around learning Russian and I know nothing much about either.

The plus of not placing a high priority on English ability is that you have a much larger selection to choose from and less competition with the non English speaking women.   This is not an easy thing for many and passing on the gal who is really right for you can be a mistake.

I think your last sentance summed it up.  It is a personal choice.  If one guy thinks it makes things impossible, than it makes it impossible for him.  It does not make it impossible for someone else.  I am not saying it does not make it more difficult or more challenging it does.   The truth about it and life in general is if you make your mind believe you can do something then it becomes much more possible.   If two people are right for each other and want to be together they will let nothing stop them.

Bruno, I don't think most Americans believe everyone should speak English because they do.  I think many just believe it is easier to have a relationship with someone you can communicate with.  I do think it would be a better world if there was only one language but that is never going to happen.   Sometimes Americans get frustrated when they can't communicate but that is normal of all people.

[KenC]

I cannot understand how you can correlate intelligence with someones ability to speak a foriegn language. Most English speaking westerners only speak English, therefore by your logic most English speaking westerners must be as thick as two short planks.

My lady did not speak English when we started communicating, she did know a very small amount of German which she had learnt years ago at school. She always received red diplomas and at Uni she was top of her class.

I for one am glad I was not so narrow minded as to exclude her because she could not speak English when we started writing to each other.

This is totally personal choice, there is no right or wrong.

Swindoom,
I suspect that your "intelligence" comments were in reference to Olga's post up thread.  Olga did not say that RW that didn't learn English because they were intellectually inferior, but that their decision not to learn English prior to seeking a foreign husband was not a smart move.  I am glad that it all worked out for you, but I don't think it is being narrow minded at all to be concerned about the pitfalls of a noncommunicable relationship.  We for the most part are discussing the additional difficulties, risks and time required to establish a deep and meaningful relationship with a woman you cannot speak with on anything other than a superficial level if at all.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

     There is a big difference between knowing enough of a language or using an interpretor to travel as a tourist or conduct business and gaining the intimate knowledge necessary to learn if you can spend the rest of your life with someone.
     We have heard from both sides, but I think the reason most men are on this site is to learn how to improve their chances of success, so let me ask one simple question.  All other things aside, is there anyone here who believes that dating a RW who speaks English will not improve the chances for success?

[Gator]

Scott,

My rhetorical question for you - should men ignore the vast majority of women because they can not have a spontaneous intellectual discussion in English?

About 40% of women listed with Elena's Models claim "good" knowledge of English, 17% "fluent".   I have dated some women with "good" English and communication was tedious - in part perhaps due to women's personalities.

And "good" is in demand by men.

Dating someone with basic English skills is difficult.  Much more time is required IMO to decide about marriage.  Less chance of success?  Yes, within a given time frame.

[Bruno]

I think many just believe it is easier to have a relationship with someone you can communicate with.

Why date Russian ?

I know that several think that US women are like "Dragon"... but what about UK, Australia, Canada and some other country where the main language is English...

Of course, in these English speaking countries, you will not find a woman ready to loose everything for the first looser who present himself...

I was in Navy during 9 year, i have date girls in each country visited... with some girls, relationship was more that a short encounter ( few month or more )... a lot of them have never speak my language but we have try to understand each other...

Try to work together is something other that reject someone because of something like language... i value more a women who don't speak my language but who wish learn it because she is in love with me that the one who already speak my language but make no effort for become better in it...

In any case, continue to reject RW who don't speak English... You will always have a European who will be happy with these non-english speaking RW 

[KenC]

How patient should you be, in regard to the time required for her to learn your language?

I think this is a good but tricky question because there can be a gap between aptitude for learning English and the desire to learn it.  I would have very little patience for a woman that didn't make some immediate effort to learn English to be able to communicate with her man.  My logic tells me that if she isn't driven to learn her man's language, then she cannot be too sincere.  I would be much more patient if she was putting forth a good effort to learn, but does not have the aptitude to learn quickly.  The effort shows sincerity in my mind.

How much can you learn about her, before she becomes proficient?

I think that you could learn a lot of the basic stuff through interpreted letters or translated conversations.  The black and white stuff.  I also think that you can develop a physical relationship with very little interactive conversation.  Some things just don't need a lot of talking any way.   But what seems impossible to be is to determine how the two personalities will mesh together and the level of sincerity in place.  Without a common language, the couple tends to interpretate each other's actions rather than to know for sure.  This leads to a fantasy relationship that is in the minds of the participants.  Is that smile that you interpretate to mean she is admiring you as her man really her thinking "man, this guy an idiot?"  You just don't know for sure and of course you are going to assume the best, always.  Women are next to impossible to understand when you share a common language, I cannot see how not being able to speak the same language would improve things.  My answer to your question is that you cannot learn enough to commit to marriage.

Can you determine if she is 'wife material' before she has learned your language?

Depends on your definition of "wife material."  If you mean, can you determine if she has potential to be your wife? I say yes.  If you mean, "is she the one for me?" I say no.  I am not saying that you cannot find your true love amongst the RW that have no English skills, but that it is a much more difficult and has a much higher risk factor.  The only way to reduce the risks is to take the time for her language skills to develop.  That is time that most people (both the women and the men) are not willing to give.  Even then, giving the time to be able to actually have the ability to communicate on any kind of deeper level, you don't know what the outcome will be.  Maybe she isn't the woman you thought she was or you the man she thought you were.
KenC

[Michelangelo]

    All other things aside, is there anyone here who believes that dating a RW who speaks English will not improve the chances for success?

That's a million dollar quote, Scott.

Bruno~ I am a big advocate of everyone in the US learning multiple languages, certainly Spanish and I suspect in the future Chinese.
But having said that, in the event the man does not speak the language of the girl he is serious about relations with nor she his, they face a BIG obsticale in learning enough about each other for success in life together.  Or as Scott says, your chances for success are improved when the two of you speak a common language.  So guys, when you are staring from "scratch" and looking at profiles, select the ones of girls who speak your language.

[Son of Clyde]

That's a million dollar quote, Scott.

Bruno~ I am a big advocate of everyone in the US learning multiple languages, certainly Spanish and I suspect in the future Chinese.

Michelangelo, I have enough trouble with pig latin. I think it should be the new Universal language.