How necessary English?

[swindoom]

is there anyone here who believes that dating a RW who speaks English will not improve the chances for success?

I do not believe it improves your chances of success, because you reduce the pool of potential partners you can choose from.

I think it reduces the time required to get to know someone well enough to decide if she is the one. It also reduces the amount of effort/work required.

[CaptB]

I did'nt read all of the posts on this thread. I have always had my own ideas on this subject.

RW"S WHO ALREADY SPEAK A FAIR AMOUNT OF ENGLISH

This is obviously the best position for an AM (or Brit, Aussie, Cannuck etc.) to be in. My wife has a masters in English Language/Literature. She taught ESL in Russia (ages 10 - adult) for 16 years. We probably had over 100 hours of phone calls.......before our first meeting. That being said......"American English".....is just chock-full of.......... "slang". She understands 99.99% now.......but not when we first met. Slang asside..........our level of comunication has always been at a level that few on the board will be lucky enough to experience.

RW"S WHO SPEAK A SMALL AMOUNT OF ENGLISH

This is a good situation also. It means you can spend most of your time together....."without" an interpreter. Detailed serious issues will require an interpreter. If the subject is serious.......make sure (if an interpreter is not present) to ask her if she fully understands what you are trying to say. I realize now that many RW gave the appearence that they understood ......"fully"..........what I was saying. I realize now that they were missing some important points. Make sure to ask and/or use an interpreter.

RW WHO SPEAK NO ENGLISH

Well..........maybe they hav'nt settled on an Amerikansky, Cannuck, Brit, Kiwi etc. Maybe they are open to Itallian, French, Spanish, German, Chinese........or Caymanian men. Maybe the man they find will determine the "language". I think some here are of the opinion that an RW that does not yet speak your languange......is problematic. I don't buy it. My first serious RW relationship was with a woman in Tver.......who was never motivated enough to learn English while she was still in Russia. Even the LTP interpreter said.....it was not important now...........................she can learn it when she gets to the US..........WRONG!!!!! This is "always" bad advice. If she is not motivated enough to jump into learning your language with both feet......after you have decided to become a couple......walk away. I did. It was a very difficult thing to do........but definately the right decission.

The problem is not "lack of English" upon first meeting an RW.......but her level of motivation "after" you are a definate couple. Leaning as much English (or other language) "IS" the number one priority on the "to do list". Only those who have not brought an RW here...."YET"......may think this is of less importance. Arriving in the US......with "zero" English skills = misserable RW. It would be one thing to visit you in the US (not going to happen) for a few weeks......with "you" in tow 24/7.........but another thing "living" here.......alone at home.......with you at work. Learning the language is needed for just about everything. A friend of mine married a girl from Tver who spoke "zero"
English when they met. For 8 months she studdied at home with Pimsleur course cassettes.........religiously........maybe 2+ hours a day. She attended lessons at LTP twice a week. Upon arrival in the US......she started to work at his Sister's pet shop within a month after arrival.......cleaning cages, feeding etc. Within a few more months she was working the register......helping customer's etc. Less then a year after arrival.......she got a job as a sales person at JC Penney. She was "very" motivated. You will know if your RW is very motivated........or not.......if you can be completely honest about your observation. If you underestimate the importance of "motivation".......you may be headed for rough times. My
wife's friend also moved to the US. "Y" was also very motivted to learn English...."BEFORE"...coming to the US. She is now happily residing in Appleton, WI.........having been here about a year now.

Knowing English before-hand.....is really an obvious plus. I was lucky in that respect. But many wonderful RW have not decided "where" they are willing to relocate to......until they meet the right guy. I don't see this as a problem. Her level of motivation in learning English (or other).......will be a telling sign in how she will approach "all" things in your lives. Just make sure you observe her level of motivation.......BEFORE.......you exercise that K-1 visa.


Capt B

[jb]

As usual, CaptB has an excellent viewpoint.  That post ought to be required reading to the newbie.

[Bruno]

As usual, CaptB has an excellent viewpoint.  That post ought to be required reading to the newbie.

Agree with JB ( don't like to say it, but it is true ), specialy about :

The problem is not "lack of English" upon first meeting an RW.......but her level of motivation "after" you are a definate couple. Leaning as much English (or other language) "IS" the number one priority on the "to do list".

MOTIVATION is really a keyword... and not only about language but about all is related to the relationship...

How much time take the dating periode... a few month maybe... if a women don't show interest in learn language, drop her... if she have already some basis english but don't wish learn more, drop her too... if she can only say "yes" and "no" but begin follow course after her daily work, you have find a jewel, keep her... give her a few years and she will be able to argument with you in English 

EDIT : my girlfriend learn now French... not really needed for where i live ( Ducth speaking regio )... i think that it is only for please me... since French is my mother language... this is what i call MOTIVATION ( and she is ready to learn Dutch too, this will make her know 6 language  )

[Rvrwind]

As usual, CaptB has an excellent viewpoint.  That post ought to be required reading to the newbie.

Well I'd have to say Cap is right on.
Thats pretty much what I've been trying to say but as usual Cap said it with more eloquence & grace. Pretty hard to argue that logic.

[BillyB]

Agree with CaptB too. Motivation of a woman is important and if a woman is motivated in knowing you, she will try and learn to understand you. I had educated fluent speaking RW invite me to visit them. they were motivated but they had nowhere near the motivation of my fiancee who wanted to genuinely understand who I was. I got this motivation from her before we committed. She would ask a lot of family oriented questions, and that means she's sizing me up to be her mate. If a woman never ask you family oriented questions, she's probably not a family oriented girl.

As far as learning Russian, I would say it depends on a few factors. Some men are retired and can afford to commit excessive amounts of time to learning an all new language. Some men have laid back jobs and can spend some time learning Russian too. Some men like me who are still young, trying to focus on career may not have as much time but my focus towards career to benefit family may be highly admired by a RW. The main thing is that there should be at least one common language with others being optional. If a woman decides to come to the man's country, the burden is on her to learn the language of the society she lives in, if the man chooses to live in the FSU, the burden should be on him. I don't know if a guy like TG can be an expert in languages, skilled in math, a professional handy man in the home, or an art/music expert but I do know he's successful at what he does and that is to be admired. We have only so many brain cells that we could use and  based on the capabilities and limitations of our mind, some of us choose to learn a little of everything and some try to focus our minds to be an expert in a certain field.

[Photo Guy]

Yeah- CaptB's post should be bronzed and placed in a new 'Bronzed' section- just one of those
classic posts.  The general consensus shows it to be a truly wise summary of the subject.

[ScottinCrimea]

No argument with CaptB's post.  I think to sum things up, including KenC's well spoken comments, is that you can find a wonderful RW who speaks little or no English given the following conditions:  First that she is HIGHLY motivated to learn English, second that she has the intellectual capability to learn another language, and third, that both partners have the patience to wait until her language skills are to the level that you can communicate deeply enough to know each other intimately before making the final decision to marry.  I think all would agree that the time she is in the US on the K-1 visa is not the best time to decide this.

[Bruno]

.........but another thing "living" here.......alone at home.......with you at work.

Hmmmm... now, i realize one of my big mistake in my previous post... US situation is not Belgium situation...

Here, by law, any foreign newcomer is obligate to follow some course... first one month course in his/her own language, it is a integration course who explain bank system, post, politic organisation, everythig about shop, etc... followed by 3 month basic language... all this pay by state ( a integrated foreigner is a foreign who don't make problem  )...

So, very few chance here that RW stay alone at home when you work... situation will be more the reverse... once back from school ( 8 hours days ), she will have some school task who will keep her busy until late in the evening... it will be you who ready the evening meal  ...

So, all is need to be related to my own experience... what is true is my country can be false in other one...

PS: since 2004, these 4 month course are obligatory for every foreign who choice to stay in Belgium... if they don't follow it, they can be send back to home country... integration before all...

[Zhena]

May I ask you something,guys? I am a woman,so its a mystery for me...By which criteria do you choose a woman if you dont know about her inner world? How can you read her mind-by mimic? Maybe partly... Dont you afraid that she will be absolutely different than you imagined?... And one wonderful day you ll realise you didnt know anything about her actually? Is your intuition so strong to be sure that she is what you want when you communicate only by fingers and smiles? Or I am not romantic enough...but I dont believe in the language of love only.

[KenC]

May I ask you something,guys? I am a woman,so its a mystery for me...By which criteria do you choose a woman if you dont know about her inner world? How can you read her mind-by mimic? Maybe partly... Dont you afraid that she will be absolutely different than you imagined?... And one wonderful day you ll realise you didnt know anything about her actually? Is your intuition so strong to be sure that she is what you want when you communicate only by fingers and smiles? Or I am not romantic enough...but I dont believe in the language of love only.

Zhena,
I agree 100%.  People can be too romantic for their own good blocking out all logic.  It is called a fantasy.
KenC

[dwfunk]

Only one question : Why language is always a problem on American forum ?
<snip>
Before complain over the capability of RW about language, see if yourself are able to reach the level of these RW...
<snip>

How true!  How true!

What I do not understand is why so many people think they are going to have a good relationship when they are requiring their new spouse to give up EVERYTHING she knows, come to a strange land, and learn a strange complicated language and then they, themselves basically do NOTHING.

It is a sign of RESPECT to learn and acknowledge your wife's past, her upbringing, her culture, her herself, her family and her former country. In this way you will also HONOR your wife. Learn to speak something to her, in her language, she'll love you more for it.  Learn to like some of the foods she's grown up with, she'll love you more for it.

I can't believe how selfish some of these posts sound.  Remember, amongst other things, it's LOVE, HONOR, CHERISH.


----------
David & Natalia
Republic of Texas/Moscow , Russia
УЛ. КОНЕНКОВА
16th World Spacemodeling Championships

[dwfunk]

  All other things aside, is there anyone here who believes that dating a RW who speaks English will not improve the chances for success?

Personally, I think it actually decreases to some extent the chances of success. When both parties know and acknowledge that there is a language barrier, and they both commit to attempting to communicate, they both already have a level of heightened awareness that things will require more work.  Hence more effort is put into what they are doing. They are also more aware that when things don't make sense, there just might be a reason for that and they take the time and effort to find out.


----------
David & Natalia
Republic of Texas/Moscow , Russia
УЛ. КОНЕНКОВА
16th World Spacemodeling Championships

[dwfunk]

May I ask you something,guys? I am a woman,so its a mystery for me...By which criteria do you choose a woman if you dont know about her inner world? How can you read her mind-by mimic?

You ask her.  In long detailed letters that you translate yourself or get translated.  When you don't understand something, you ask her again. If she doesn't ask you deep probing questions, run, she's probably not that interested in you, just your situation


----------
David & Natalia
Republic of Texas/Moscow , Russia
УЛ. КОНЕНКОВА
16th World Spacemodeling Championships

[I/O]

Dwfunk (and some others)  The things you say might be all very well and good, BUT, I think your comments are failing to estimate the maturity of the writers here.  Anyone (Generally speaking) who is participating in these boards is at least to some extent aware of the sacrifice a woman will make to leave her friends, family and country in order to spend her life with a foreign man.  I don't think these guys are being selfish at all, the fact that they are here trying to find the best way to do this, in and of itself indicates they are showing great respect to both themselves and their potential or current partner.

I would be about the most protective SOB on the face of the earth and when mine was in my country with me the first time with little language, even she remarked, "For Gods sake Mat, let me go and make the mistakes, I need to learn, nice though it is, you can't do everything for me". If they have little or no language, you will have to do and be everything for her and no relationship will survive like that for very long.

As others of greater experience than me have remarked, the initial period when she arrives is tough beyond measure.  Why add even more presure to it when it is not entirely necessary.  Face the realities of the risks and make every effort to minimize those risks. One way to do that is for her to be learning as much as possible regarding language as soon as is possible.  This is a two way thing.  I might sound harsh, but as mine and I have long discussed, I want a partner, children can come later.

I/O

[LEGAL]

How true!  How true!

What I do not understand is why so many people think they are going to have a good relationship when they are requiring their new spouse to give up EVERYTHING she knows, come to a strange land, and learn a strange complicated language and then they, themselves basically do NOTHING.

It is a sign of RESPECT to learn and acknowledge your wife's past, her upbringing, her culture, her herself, her family and her former country. In this way you will also HONOR your wife. Learn to speak something to her, in her language, she'll love you more for it.  Learn to like some of the foods she's grown up with, she'll love you more for it.

I can't believe how selfish some of these posts sound.  Remember, amongst other things, it's LOVE, HONOR, CHERISH.


----------
David & Natalia
Republic of Texas/Moscow , Russia
УЛ. КОНЕНКОВА
16th World Spacemodeling Championships

I'm sure many marred to RW members of RWD are not selfish. Question is - Should RW know English if she wants to share her life with AM and to live with him in his country? She must know English!!! Oh, maybe whole America must learn Russian because of Russian wives???
It is her respect and her love to learn language of husband.

Olga - Russian wife.

[jb]

What I do not understand is why so many people think they are going to have a good relationship when they are requiring their new spouse to give up EVERYTHING she knows, come to a strange land, and learn a strange complicated language and then they, themselves basically do NOTHING.

But they do,,, what amazes them is when everything turns to brown stuff, and runs through their fingers once the RW figures out she got screwed in the process.  Hardly an epiphany on the RW's part.  These woman are not as dumb as they appear.

[Michelangelo]

Hmmm....after my day with my UW, I think I will change my stance.   NO english would be nice!!!    LOL

[ScottinCrimea]

Hey Michelangelo, I've had more than a few of those days.  Some things RW can express very well language or no language!

[Photo Guy]

In the beginning, it is definitely possible to determine if a particular woman is your 'type'.
It is possible to perceive a lot about a person without fluent langauge skills. I am not sure exactly
how this happens, but I'm sure it does happen. Maybe it's similar to the way you can tell
how your favorite pet is different from your least favorite pet- not that women are pets,
but it's just an example of how you can understand something without language. Another
example would be the friends we choose at a very young age. We choose our childhood friends
without discussing politics, religion, or sex. We don't talk about world events or the latest
front page news. An emotional connection can quickly develop without any elaborate
discussions. A great deal can be learned by observing her reactions to people and
circumstances. You can read things/qualities like 'contempt', anger, inability to organize,
inability to forgive, inability to enjoy life, the ability to be compassionate, frugality,
drunkeness, willingness to learn, attitudes about personal hygiene, honesty, brashness,
graciousness, emotional sensitivity, level of sophistication, and likes and dislikes...etc.

All of these qualities can be scutinized in a short amount of time, and I encourage the help of
a decent interpreter for letters and conversations. Deception can occur with or without language
skills. Someone who is not as perceptive will be more easily fooled and will have difficulties
discovering who she is, whether she speaks your language or not.

I realize it is controversial to say it is possible to learn a lot about a woman, even without
fluent language skills, but I KNOW this can happen. If it doesn't happen, if you are unable
to perceive who she is within a reasonable amount of time, it means you two do not belong
together.  Some guys cannot determine who is right for them, and it does not matter whether
or not there's a shared language. The other extreme can also be true- two people come together
in a situation where there is a huge langauge barrier. And others have stated- from that point on
the couple works to achieve a common language, (so they can get to the point of
negotiating the minutae of everyday life in an atypical marriage) <wink>

I'm very opinionated about this. I'm confidant about it. I don't care if you
disagree with me. There are hundreds of high-quality women with bad foreign
language skills. Maybe one of them is your future wife, who will strive to learn
your language and work to create a beautiful relationship. Where there is a will,
there is a way.

If you want to play the odds, STAY HOME in Indiana or where ever. If you can't
read women well, contact only women with fluent language skills and then narrow
those down to the ones with perfect personalities. <grin>  The ones with perfect
personalities will be the least troublesome. Use a comprehensive list of 100
relevant questions...    At the slightest impression of a 'difficulty', abandon ship.
Well, you get my point. I hope.
 
 

[ScottinCrimea]

If all this controversy confuses you, just listen to the guys who have been successful and who have the most experience.  If you want what they have, do what they do and what they suggest.  I laugh when I read some guy saying, " I have made over a dozen trips to Russia, have had numerous RW girlfriends, have done the K-1 visa thing three times and been married to a RW twice and now looking for a third, so I think I have the expertise to tell you how to do it."

[I/O]

If all this controversy confuses you, just listen to the guys who have been successful and who have the most experience.  If you want what they have, do what they do and what they suggest.  I laugh when I read some guy saying, " I have made over a dozen trips to Russia, have had numerous RW girlfriends, have done the K-1 visa thing three times and been married to a RW twice and now looking for a third, so I think I have the expertise to tell you how to do it."

Ever noticed how most marriage guidance counselors have been divorced several times?  I guess at least they know how to do that part.

I/O

[KenC]

In the beginning, it is definitely possible to determine if a particular woman is your 'type'.
It is possible to perceive a lot about a person without fluent langauge skills. I am not sure exactly
how this happens, but I'm sure it does happen. Maybe it's similar to the way you can tell
how your favorite pet is different from your least favorite pet- not that women are pets,
but it's just an example of how you can understand something without language.

Perceive.now that is an interesting word.  Anyone can have a "perception" of an event, an action, or another person as it in fact is a judgement or an opinion.  Therefore one can have a "perception" or an opinion upon first meeting a RW or even better yet, just from reviewing her profile on the Net.  Why even bother to meet her then?  You already "perceive" her to be all you ever dreamed of.  Your perception of another person is born in your own mind based on your own experiences, wants and desires not on facts or actual knowledge of the person.  It is your own personal mind game and imagination interpreting everything you observe in the best possible way to feed your fantasy.  But that does not make your fantasy true.  It is only a self fulfilling pleasure promoted by your ability to imagine or interpretate things in a way to promote the fantasy already developed in your mind. 

Can you have "valid" or "real" feelings based on imaginary, or guessed, or perceived observations?  Of course you can and there is a long list of dreamers that live their life in their own personal dreamland.  It still doesn't make their dreams a reality.  Unfortunately, for the dreamers there will always come a time when they are forced back into the reality of life.

I find it very curious that you use a dog as an example to prove this point.  I have a dog.  And I damn well love that little guy.  He is the best dog in the world for me.  He will sit so cute on his hind legs and beg for food (that I usually give to him).  He will chase a ball until your arm falls off from throwing it.  He will always wag his tail and come to me for affection.  I think he really loves me.  That is my "perception" of my dog.  But the reality of it is that if I don't feed him some table scraps when he is begging so cutely, he will just work his way further down the dinner table and find someone else to feed him.
 

Another
example would be the friends we choose at a very young age. We choose our childhood friends
without discussing politics, religion, or sex. We don't talk about world events or the latest
front page news. An emotional connection can quickly develop without any elaborate
discussions.

If you are comparing the bonding concepts of a 12 year old child to what can be accomplished with a non English speaking RW, I agree.  Most of us understand that a much deeper understanding is necessary for a successful marriage.

A great deal can be learned by observing her reactions to people and
circumstances. You can read things/qualities like 'contempt', anger, inability to organize,
inability to forgive, inability to enjoy life, the ability to be compassionate, frugality,
drunkeness, willingness to learn, attitudes about personal hygiene, honesty, brashness,
graciousness, emotional sensitivity, level of sophistication, and likes and dislikes...etc.

All of these qualities can be scutinized in a short amount of time, and I encourage the help of
a decent interpreter for letters and conversations. Deception can occur with or without language
skills. Someone who is not as perceptive will be more easily fooled and will have difficulties
discovering who she is, whether she speaks your language or not.

Here we go again, with your secret powers of perception!  No matter how much your perceptions built your fantasy relationship into something it never was, the weight of the facts of reality (which you did not perceive) ultimately broke your relationship apart.  I have no doubt that you had strong feelings for Larisa, and maybe she had them for you.  But the reality of the situation is that she had stronger feelings for her ailing father and choose him over you.  The fact that you had no prior knowledge of this problem or her own personal health problems shows the value of true communication and how deal breaking information can be missed using your "perception" methods.

I realize it is controversial to say it is possible to learn a lot about a woman, even without
fluent language skills, but I KNOW this can happen.

Actually, your story proves just the opposite if it is a long term marriage that you are seeking.  Your relationship failed based on information you did not know.

If it doesn't happen, if you are unable
to perceive who she is within a reasonable amount of time, it means you two do not belong
together.  Some guys cannot determine who is right for them, and it does not matter whether
or not there's a shared language. The other extreme can also be true- two people come together
in a situation where there is a huge langauge barrier. And others have stated- from that point on
the couple works to achieve a common language, (so they can get to the point of
negotiating the minutae of everyday life in an atypical marriage) <wink>

And you know this because of your years of successful matrimony?<wink>

I'm very opinionated about this. I'm confidant about it. I don't care if you
disagree with me. There are hundreds of high-quality women with bad foreign
language skills. Maybe one of them is your future wife, who will strive to learn
your language and work to create a beautiful relationship. Where there is a will,
there is a way.

I agree.  It is just more difficult and takes more time.  Time most, as you proved, are not willing to give.

If you want to play the odds, STAY HOME in Indiana or where ever. If you can't
read women well, contact only women with fluent language skills and then narrow
those down to the ones with perfect personalities. <grin>  The ones with perfect
personalities will be the least troublesome. Use a comprehensive list of 100
relevant questions...    At the slightest impression of a 'difficulty', abandon ship.
Well, you get my point. I hope.

If your powers of perception are so good and your ability to read women so great, why is it after 50 some years on the planet, you are still living in a dream world and never have experiences the reality of marriage?
KenC

[Turboguy]

I find it very curious that you use a dog as an example to prove this point.  I have a dog.  And I damn well love that little guy.  He is the best dog in the world for me.  He will sit so cute on his hind legs and beg for food (that I usually give to him).  He will chase a ball until your arm falls off from throwing it.  He will always wag his tail and come to me for affection.  I think he really loves me.  That is my "perception" of my dog.  But the reality of it is that if I don't feed him some table scraps when he is begging so cutely, he will just work his way further down the dinner table and find someone else to feed him.
 

I can understand your example KenC, but don't AM and RW do the same thing.   Don't we pick a gal from some website or agency and go wagging our tail and her and if we don't get the response we want we go wag out tail at some other candidate.

If your powers of perception are so good and your ability to read women so great, why is it after 50 some years on the planet, you are still living in a dream world and never have experiences the reality of marriage?
KenC

We all have opinions and perceptions.   You know what they say, "it is a free world and opinions are like ....., we all have one"  I still think we all agree we should be attacking the ideas and not the person.   I remember long ago seeing a picture on TV of a business meeting in the summer of 1929.   These were the leaders of the business world at that time.   Then they told what happened to those guys after Black Monday.   Suicides, bankrupcy and failure.   Todays success is tomorrows failure and vice versa.   PG is one RW away from success and has learned much from you and the others here.

[Michelangelo]

It seems like a no-brainer to me.  You get to know your girl through hours and hours of talk.  And you gotta have a common language to talk.

Without it, you're just guessing.

Perception you say?  It's worth about 5%, then the hard work begins-- through conversation.