Less than 90 days or more than 90 days?

[Muckraker]

About 30 days before proposing, about 180 days before leaving Russia together on a K-1.  Corresponded every day for six months before my first visit. Total time from her first letter to her landing at JFK was about two years. Had to chuck the job to do it, but I ended up with a better job so no matter.   

Muck

[KenC]

I was going to post something here but I just can't...it's SO frustrating even for a dumb ass newbie like me!

Sorry to disagree with you, Kuna.  You are neither a dumb ass nor a newbie, you are a work in process with some limitations due to your inexperience.
KenC

[jb]

Hi ya, Muckraker,

Glad you are still around.

[Erwin]

For those of you who are already married or engaged to a woman from the FSU:

When you decided to get married, had you spent less than 90 days of
'face time' with her, or more than 90 days?

It is my understanding that the original K-1 fiancee process was originally designed for military relationships and to allow for marriages between military personnel who were stationed overseas and their respective foreign fiancees who they met overseas to be performed in the US?  So, it was never designed for American men living in America to find and marry their foreign brides?  So, the original K-1 fiancee process assumes that the "face time" has already been accomplished....and it is not advisable for one to use it as an additional face time to "get to know each other better."  One should know without any shadow of doubt that this is the woman one will and should marry...

Best,

E

[CaptB]

Hi Muck,

Glad to see you are still kicking. Hope all is well with you and the Mrs.


Capt B

[Vaughn]

Every time I think Erwin's fallen into a CO canyon, he
shows up here without warning....E, did you hear
Pete & Venera moved to Hawaii? Colorado's loss.

For us, it was less than 90 days face time on
three trips over. Phone time doesn't count, I
know, but near daily phone calls for well over a year
without translator certainly helped us make
our decision to commit. 21 months from first
letter to our touchdown at JFK.

[Bruno]

I hope you aren't disappointed..

Not at all... always interesting to know the real story of someone... before you explain it, i was only busy elaborate hypothese... now, i know the real story... So much year in Germany !!! Military ? Just curious 

[catzenmouse]

The only drawback is, in an ideal situation, it would've been even better if all of their face time was on his home turf in PA.

 I certainly would not have a problem with a longer period in this country together. And there are ways that you can do it, the student visa being one way.

 But if you do not spend time with her in her country, with her friends, family, language, culture, food, etc. you will only be getting a glimpse of who she is. It will be who she is in your country not who she is from all sides. There is no replacement for this time with her there and more is always better than less but to consider having none is adding still another wild card into the mix.

 In this game, wild cards are more often than not going to blow up in your hand leaving your fingers on the floor and a very stunned expression on your face while you're in court facing a DV wondering how you could have missed all those yellow, pink, red, and florescent blinking flags.

Ken

[Captmonk1]

Roughly a week and a half. ( 1 trip ) Married a year and a half. Things still great. I truely believe though that I am the exception, not the rule.

( On another note, 6 months of phone conversations and E-mails every day. I think that also makes a difference. )

[KenC]

Photo,
I can see where you want to go with the visa reformation, but it just isn't ever going to happen.  It is just not that important to enough people.  I too was faced with your same problem when I met Lena.  How in the world can you spend enough time together to come to know a woman well enough to marry her when she lived in Russia?  No one has the amount of time necessary to do it, unless they can move (at least temporarily) to Russia.  Three weeks or 3 months is just not enough time to know someone that well IMO.  I dated a lot of AW that could hold up a charade for quite a while until the real person showed up.  I used to make a joke that you never knew a woman's true intentions until the 6 month mark of the relationship.  And that is with someone that shares your language and culture!

It would have taken me years, not months or weeks to pull the trigger on a K-1 and I would never ever gone the K-3 method without the woman at least spending some time here.  I seriously do not understand how guys do it.  There is such a huge risk factor in marrying someone you don't know completely.  It seems like guys just leap off that cliff with blind faith and hope for the best.

Most guys, it seems to me, kind of, sort of, know their fiancees before they bring them over on a K-1.  Even though I agree that you can learn a lot about her via the phone and to a lesser extent emails, it still is not the same nor as accurate as spending time together.  And to be honest about it, I think that there is still a certain amount of doubt in limbo when their gals show up on the K-1.  Even if you are certain of your love for each other, there has to be some doubt because no one can be sure how she will react to your life in America.  So to some extent most guys do abuse the the principals of a K-1 and use that time to gage how their RW will fit into their world.  But once the woman arrives on our shores that 90 day time clock starts ticking.  The sound of that tic tock has to be deafening!  The pressure of the time constraints pushes the man to do one of three things: #1 Pull the trigger on a marriage to a woman he doesn't know well enough #2 Confirm that she is who you thought and be comfortable enough that she will indeed fit into your world and proceed to marry #3 Have her return home.

I could never ever marry a woman under those controlled conditions and pressure.  It just isn't natural to me.  I applaud all of you that took the chance and had it all work for you. I just was not that stoked on getting married to anyone to take those kind of risks.  So I was faced with the problem of being in love with Lena but still understanding that we still faced important future benchmarks in our relationship to assure it would work for both of us.  Too logical to go forward and too in love to turn back.

I chose to manipulate the system to my benefit.  I arranged a student visa so Lena could come to America, spend an unlimited amount of time with me and have no pressure of the government telling us when we had to marry or cut bait.  I have no qualms with doing whatever is in your own best interest within such a system filled with such inequities and arbitrary regulations.  I may have abused the principals of the law but I worked within the rules and still did it my way.
KenC

[William3rd]

UHHHHH- I wouldnt be ever admitting to that stuff, Ken C. Not now or ever. Not in writing. . . . .

Got a little story for you. My son's mom entered into a marriage of convenience a couple of years ago. She got paid $30K. She then applied for US citizenship. Got it. Then they did the AOS. Flunked the interview. (claimed she cooked him steak the last night/he doesnt eat beef-and it all went downhill from there)

Prosecuted for immigration fraud. Probation. Now in rescission proceedings on her NATZ. After Rescission will come removal proceedings.

Catch all question on NATZ- ever committed any crime?

[Jumper]

P/G said -

For those who have used the 90 day visa period for a
'getting to know you' period, I would have to advise you that
doing so is a terrible thing. It would be much better for all
involved, to make a few trips to the FSU, get maybe 30 or
40 days of 'face time' and then pull the engagement trigger

I agree PG-

I will say we would likely not be married if we had gone
with what i often see--
  a few trips, then K1 route.

While it works for many, and i agree with Capt B this is
probably the most common..

for us , her first 90 days here were pretty tryng times for us both.
She wasnt herself in any way,shape, or form,   
and in dealing with the difficulties daily,   I wasnt myself at all either.

and there was no 90 day ticking clock!
(we were already married,and had been for awhile before her relocating here)

If on a K1 , and the clock ticking, it would have added substantially to the pressure ..
and i'm fairly certain we both would have decided that it was the best thing to not get married at that time.
(she would agree)

How much more time would have helped?
i'm not sure a governmental *standard* could be set , that would be fair.

how the K1  is set now ,and intended to be used ,
is likely the best..
to already be commmitted to marry before filing,
 and the 90 days used in wedding day preparations.


As far as our time spent face to face ... before engagement?
about 60 days..
(yes daily phone conversations,over a long time period  that dont count in this scenerio)
before marriage ? .. likely just over 90 days..

was it enough? yes,, but i would advise far more time.
 we both  thought it was plenty and were sure..
or we both would not have made such a committment.
it worked out great!!  but we both feel we were lucky.

[Erwin]

....E, did you hear Pete & Venera moved to Hawaii? Colorado's loss.

Hey Vaughn,

Last time I talked to Pete was almost a year ago; he said his mother was not doing well at all.  It is not suprising to me that they moved to Hawaii; Pete wanted to live closer to his mother, but do you know if Venera and her son Dima are in fact happy there? They apparently have made lots of friends here.

Colorado loss, you say......????  Naaaaaaa.....Hardly....)))) 

Best,

E

[CaptB]

Ken C,

The reality is........this process will never be like dating an AW. Doing what you did was understandable. Probably 99% of all the guys here will never have all the time....."they" need.......or "she" needs. The best you can hope for is that "you" are one of the fortunate few that have really learned from your past (relationships). Hopefully your RW has also reached that level of understanding about her herself. Before my first marriage (at age 30) I dated extensively.......until about age 28.......then burried myself in work and hobbies......taking a year off from dating. I had dated almost every woman that caught my eye.....lots of nice women.....some arm candy. But I was'nt finding anything suitablr for marriage. Then one night my housemates hauled me out for an evening on the town. I met my future Mrs. X Capt B that night. Dated 1 1/2 years........then marriage. Divorced 9 years later. In hindsite.......lots of "red flags".........a term I was to learn years later on the RWG. After my divorce.......my attitude was unlike alot of other guys fresh from divorce. I had three kids who occupied alot of my time. I was'nt hot and bothered to start dating right away. All those feelings of missing-out........disapated before my first marriage. I had dated anyone and all........of any interest................sewed those wild oats..........had some arm-candy...........got things out of my system. I think that is the key to much of this. Guys who had a rich dating life......a divorce they "learned" from........and a good dating life after divorce........will be in the best position to make a decission such as this..........when there will never be enough time.

You could date from affar for years......several trips a year........but it will never be like a day-to-day relationship you would have in the states. My wife and I talked everyday...sometimes a few times a day........for many months.......asking alot of hard questions. I finally went to meet her......we spent most of our time getting to "know" each other. I met most of her friends, relatives, coworkers........who all reminded me how fortunate I was to have met her. Meeting on "her" home turf....at least the first trip....is a must................anything else...........is just a "vacation". Because of the limited time we have for this.......my recomendation is spending "most" of your time in her hometown. Save extensive vacation time for "after" marriage. People act differently on "vacation".......it is a different "mode". If you want to have the best idea who she "is"........you need to observe her on home turf.

My wife has an MA in English Language/Literature with a BA (equiv.) in Russian Language/Literature with extensive studies in US culture and history. When she first arrived there were know major surprises.....other than how "clean" and well-maintained the roads were. Things were mostly has she had immagined. Language was not a barrier (except for some of those pesky American slang words/phrases). My parents quickly became...."her" parents.

We could have spent more time together......but when someone "different" comes along.....someone who just "fits"..........sometimes you just know. Yes.......there are alot of guys here who will think "they just knew".........but ultimately they just did not aquire the experience (lots of dating, learning from a divorce and past relationships) or could really be honest with themselves......about themselves. I am no longer bowled-over my "beauty".....I have "learned" that all too often.......it really is only skin-deep. I am no longer impressed with the "armcandy" that others choose to display......it is a weak relacement for a real relationship......real love. Hopefully you posess most of the attributes I duscussed.......you will need all the help you can muster. This process will "never" be like dating at home. Ken.......made it closer than most.........but the techniques used......although understandable.........I would not recomend............as it could come back later......and bite you. We will never really have enough time as we would like in this process. My wife and I became friends first......we just thoroughly enjoyed each others company. We had both been married/divorced.......and learned from past relationships. We were able to speak of the bad (as is normal)......but also the "good" in past relationships. Feelings started from a place of "nice" (as opposed to an earthquake)......and just contined to grow from there.......and are still growing. We could have spent more time......but we just knew. There is a precedent for this......it is nothing new. Many of our Grandparents had short courtships.......and thrived till the end. Make sure you are really at an equal place in your lives.......on the "same" page.....in life.......and in your feelings for each other. The guys that will fail here.....will give more weight to how "they" feel........and how the woman makes "them" feel..........and disregard the fact that "her" feelings do not equal his.

This is'nt about number of days, weeks, months........or years. I think you really need to take a honest look at yourself........and hopefully your RW of interest has done the same. I can't disagree that in most cases......more time will be better. But as jb once said.......an internatiional relationship is the "advanced class" for those who have really learned from past relationships, have an open mind and an extra amount of........patience. All the normal dating problems.......plus..........time, distance, money.........and cultural issues thrown in for good measure.

Some will go the shorter (amount of time) route......for the wrong reasons. They are in a hurry to get married. They don't like living alone......they cannot be happy with "themselves"...for company. They are bowled-over by the attention of a beautiful woman. Some are trying to save money.....not realizing that an extra trip or two......is not a short-term investment........but may mean the difference for a "lifetime" of happiness.......or not. Not a rich dating life........translating to taking who comes along.....first.

My wife and I were married in a relatively short period of time. Any who know me well here on the RWD..........and going back alot of years on the RWG..........know that there was alot of experience gained prior to experiences with RW and Russia.......and after. I don't regret the bad experiences in my life. I can now appreciate that........if you are forunate.......they can become possitive.......if you learn from the experience. I have......and so has my wife. Like my grandparents.......we were at a point in our lives that.........we just "knew". I never once had any reservations about our decision.......it was the right time......place.....and person. No cold-feet before the wedding. Just a nice day with friends and relatives.........in Russia (this time ). We will be celebrating our forth anniversary this year.


Capt B 

[Kuna]

CaptB,

Excellent post!

May I ask what a "relatively short period of time" was for you?

You might be aware I'm currently on my first trip and think I've taken a fairly planned approach to choosing the girls I'll meet and all met at least some of the standards you set for yourself.

1. I didn't only send out emails to girls who were "the most attractive". In my dating experience at home I've found some hotties can look pretty ugly after you get to know them... and some girls who look more "homely" can become absolutely stunning when you understand them.

Arm candy is fun...  but not even close to being sustainable.

2. Hard Questions...  What I liked most about the 3 girls I've prearranged meetings with is that THEY asked ME many hard questions.  They obviously have enough life experience and have thought seriously enough about "the process" to be in a group I'd regard as "most likely" to have a successful marriage. Some of the questions made me a little uncomfortable, and some of their answers to my hard questions weren't always my initial "ideal answer" but they way they described it proved to me their answer was probably right and they had an ability to communicate it in a way that I respected.

3. Age and stage of life.  I've dated young girls at home.  Not once or twice and not only when I was young.  I just wasn't interested in someone too young and in fact I also didn't send off the first message to one girl because she was 1 year under my "Acceptable Age Range". She is 27 and I am 38... MY AAR was 28 - 31.

When you're 38 the naivety of a 20 year old seems sexy but in reality it's just frustratingly tedious for me.  Culture may have made this old rule from home redundant, but I wasn't prepared to take a risk on it.

4. Family and friends.  This is the only concern I have with 1 girl...  I'll be meeting two of my favourites in their hometown and am glad to have the opportunity to meet their families. The third girl has just returned from living in Germany (where she was studying) and now lives in the family apartment in Dnepropetrovsk.  Her mother has moved to Moscow to live with her sister, son-in-law and three children.  When I told her about my trip and gave her my travel dates she responded by saying she told her mother and her mother would come "home" so we could meet but I felt guilty making the woman sit on a train for 19 hours each way when in reality, it was only Ms Dnepropetrovsk and my first meeting.  I figured I'll be returning in July so IF she was the one, then I could meet the mother during my next trip.  Re: Friends... I think she has friends in Dnepropetrovsk but her best friend is in Germany and she's included both of us in some emails where she's sent new photos of herself.  (BTW... the friend has a university email address in Germany not a hot_yuri_with_long_legs@inbox.ru).

I dunno...  it's been on my mind that our meeting isn't ideal (No family and possibly no friend visits) but with this girl I've seen her work website, old university website in germany with photos etc, shared 3 way mail with her best friend, been the one to stop her mother coming to town and called her on her mobile and home phone at all hours of day and night.

Dunno... it's my only question about our meeting because it doesn't fit "my ideal".

5. I'm not desperate.  I'm not a pretty boy but I do "OK" dating at home.  I LOVE living alone and will have to make adjustments to my life to accommodate a new live in partner.  I can't help but think that men that make fatal mistakes in this quest are those that are desperate to have a partner.  We all know we feel a rush of excitement when we meet someone new (Puppy Love) but unless we're able to let the Puppy Love Subside...  or we're emotionally capable of putting feelings aside while the logic forms the basis of decisions, we're in for a world of pain.

Sorry for my ramblings...  Obviously I'm thinking a lot about my decision process now that I'm on my trip but I think my logic has been sound.

Reading you post reminded me of a few critical points to consider, thus the rambling.

Oh, finally...  I think being in Riga and meeting a few girls "on the ground" prior to my Ukraine Trip has been good.  It means that I have more options and options are a good thing I think!

Anyway...  I think I've flushed most of the thoughts out of my head for now...

 

Kuna

[CaptB]

Kuna,

You seem to have a handle on "thinking things out before the trip". Sound ideas.....reasonable expectations. Now you can relax a bit. Just do the trip and follow your plans. Let things happen........or not happen........naturally.

As for my wife and I.........we both asked all the serious questions........even before we met.
After a hundred hours of phone calls........letters........emails.............we felt very familiar.......like old friends by the time we actually met. I spent about 18 days in her town of Stavropol, Russia. I met all of her coworkers, boss, many friends and relatives........who held her in high esteem. We went to dinner twice, one movie, a few museums........but mostly spent time getting to know each other. About a month after my return......I proposed over the phone..........we were married three months later in Russia. Our facetime was only the 18 days of the first trip. I never thought I would be in the "one trip wonder" category.............but then sometimes you just never know.........before-hand.

Time for one........cannot be related to another individual. We all have different life experiences. My first two serious RW relationships entailed several visits.....before determining..........I was on the wrong track. With my wife it was different........we just "BOTH" new........it was the real deal. We became each others best company rather quickly........conversation....."yahtzee"...........just hanging-out. We just knew..........like our grandparents......just knew.

Have a good trip........have fun..........and take....."your" time.


Capt B

[Jumper]

Marc, old days at RWG or before?
lol i remember ,and now 

"The yooper returns!"
 

You had some really good T/R's , thanks for taking that time.
I remember yours and eddyB's and a few others really hit home.



Now if gameranger would just pop back in..
 and fill in his tale of daring do!!

(but *he* probably has graduated by now, with his degree in literature , and is writing harlequin romance novels or something? )



 

[CaptB]

GameRanger!!!!

I think his folks kicked him out of basement.......before his final installment on the TR.
I heard he did do a romance novel.......but was miffed because his publisher would'nt let him be on the cover. Something about being too short.......and only 17 years old. I think they finally hired.........FABIO........to do the cover


Capt B    "A Yooper.......in Moscovia"

[Photo Guy]

I started this topic, as a way to get people thinking about the time spent
together- 'face time'. I wanted the topic to be narrow

Many of you agree with me when I say writing letters and making phone calls
are valuable forms of communication, but in this topic I want to focus
on the widely held opinion- that 'face time' is crucial.

I used the '90' day parameter because of the association with
the K-1 period. 

From this thread, I've come to the conclusion that most married couples
had spent less than 90 days of face time together, before making
the decision to marry. Often(but not always) that decision coincides with the
decision to file for a K-1 visa.

About myself- I was not ready- WE were not ready to marry after
85 days of face time here in the US. It was a pressure cooker.
The hammer was hovering over our heads. My heart was telling
me to marry her and many other factors were saying, 'Not now,
and maybe never'.  She was definitely not ready to marry during
these days of being in the pressure cooker.

I felt it was important for her to see my world. We both agreed
about that. So how do you do that before making a commitment?
Visa reform:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=3593.45

Apparently, many men make the decision to marry with less than 30 or 40
days of face time, and usually that time is experienced in her country
or sometimes at vacation spots, beautiful beaches, etc.
So, why so little face time?  Is it because of purely practical concerns?
Vacation time? Available funds? etc.

I admire the guys who were able to spend a lot of face time with
their future bride, right here on his home turf.  -Usually accomplished with
the help of a work or student visa. That approach makes total sense to
me, and it's time to start drumming up support for a new type of visa,
a Visitors Visa, which would be like a Tourist Visa, except with a strong
sponsorship role and a decent time limit, say 6 months to a year.

In retrospect, I have to admit (for the third or fourth time) that face time
in her home town with her friends and family are a necessity, for learning
about her. Face time on your own home turf is probably even more important.
How do you accomplish that, while working within the system?

Is three or four weeks of face time in her country enough time to make
that commitment?  Is 90 days of face time in your home, in the pressure
cooker, enough time? 

If you find yourself without enough time, don't pull the trigger.
Instead, extend your time allowances, do what you have to do,
to get to know her better and allow love to grow.
 

[Photo Guy]

KenC,
I agree with you- I think it is kind of crazy to want to marry someone,
at a point in time when she has no knowledge of your country, your
home city, your friends, your home life, or family. To do so, one
needs to rely on gut instincts and intuition- which works for some
couples.

[LEGAL]

KenC,
I agree with you- I think it is kind of crazy to want to marry someone,
at a point in time when she has no knowledge of your country, your
home city, your friends, your home life, or family.

Crazy woman  who wants to marry foreign man, knowing nothing about his contry, home city, home life ...

[I/O]

Crazy woman  who wants to marry foreign man, knowing nothing about his contry, home city, home life ...

Thankyou lines people, thankyou ball people, game set, match...!!!  Olga nailed that pretty good.  I wouldn't go quite as far as saying that it is 100% necessary for her to see your house, but ideally I would think it is very helpful.

Sorry if I offend some, honestly as a general rule, one or two weeks of meeting time and then file for a fiance' visa. ??? ???  Ya gotta be nuts.....!!!!! :noidea: :noidea: :hairraising: :hairraising:

I/O

[KenC]

Photo,

About myself- I was not ready- WE were not ready to marry after
85 days of face time here in the US.

But didn't you offer to marry her so as to apply for an AOS as stated by you in the old post I dug up?

I've come to the conclusion that most married couples
had spent less than 90 days of face time together, before making
the decision to marry

Agreed, but what is the relevance of "90 days" any way?  You seem intent on correlating the 90 days allowed with a K-1 to "face time" and there is no connection between the two.  Also you must conclude that the majority of the guys here spent a lot more than a week face to face with their wives.

If you find yourself without enough time, don't pull the trigger.
Instead, extend your time allowances, do what you have to do,
to get to know her better and allow love to grow

Excellent advice!!!!

KenC

[BC]

KenC,
I agree with you- I think it is kind of crazy to want to marry someone,
at a point in time when she has no knowledge of your country, your
home city, your friends, your home life, or family. To do so, one
needs to rely on gut instincts and intuition- which works for some
couples.

I don't think for her to be able to visit your country is a 'must' before making a true commitment. 

Some factors that may have helped us:

1. I kept expectations low and understated my lifestyle here.
2. She had at least some limited experience traveling outside FSU.
3. My commitment was strong enough that if things really don't work out because of some irreconcilable factor here I was willing and able to move to her country.
4. I lived in quite a few different countries myself and know first-hand how difficult it is to adapt to a new home.

I may be wrong, but I believe that KenC's approach was more about time to establish their relationship and confirm commitments rather than a field trip to his environs.

'Gut instincts and intuition' are great but take the time to back them up with good evidence.  Taken alone they are practically worthless and little more than a higher belief in blind luck.

[ScottinCrimea]

My wife has never been to America, has never seen my house, has never met my family or friends there.  Her only knowledge of me is how I am in Ukraine.  Even though we have known each other for over 4 years now, I think she will still have a better understanding of me on my home turf.  She needs to meet my family and see how I interact with them.  She needs to see me in a situation where I understand fully the language and the system.  She needs to see "my" world so she can understand how it has shaped my personality and thoughts.  Will that change how she feels about me?  At this point I think not, but it will cerainly help her understanding of me.