Kuna's Ukraine Trip Report

[Kuna]

The Train Journey to Kiev

This was a journey not a ride.  I had hoped on this trip to have unique experiences that would enlighten me more than reading or research could do and it’s days like this that will leave impressions on me, perhaps for the rest of my life.

We arrive at the station and settle into our separate carriages and very attractive lady (perhaps in her 40’s) arrives to take up her place in the seat next to me.  She seems pleasant but speaks little or no English so I’m not counting on much of a conversation during the trip to Kiev.

The train jerks to a start and off we go in cars that are modern and clean and very comfortable.

I’m not sure how the conversation started but before long I’d retrieved my phrase book and Russian dictionary and we started to labour through the niceties.

It ended up being a remarkable conversation because in the next 6 hours I would experience the earth shattering truth of how small our world really is.

When discovering I was from Australia Tatiana told me with a huge smile that grandfather lived in Australia too.  Our conversation revealed that he has 3 children and they live in Queensland.  Actually, they live in the same city as me, Brisbane.  No, let me be more precise, they live in a suburb that adjoins the suburb I live in, not more than 5 minutes by car away.

We were both stunned and I took out my books, maps and photos of Brisbane and she was very animated when explaining to me through the dictionaries and phrase book that her parents had visited Brisbane and had photos at home of some of the same landmarks I was showing her.

Her family has lost contact with her grandfather and they are not sure if he is now in an aged persons home or possibly even deceased.

She called her mother on her mobile and found out the names of his children and their last known address.

Prince Street…  The same street a very good friend of mine lived in for many years.

I collected all of the details and we took some photos separately and together and when I return home I will find the family for her and pass on the photos.  She was very happy and so excited that I felt good just being with her.

OK, so where was Ms D???

After about an hour of the journey starting Ms D arrived at my shoulder and had an expression of shock, hurt and downright anger that I was speaking with an attrqctive stranger seated next to me. 

I introduced her for the first time as my “girlfriend” and in a nanosecond she relaxed and joined the conversation.  Of course I offered to let her sit but she said she wanted to stand but after a while I insisted so she took the seat while I set off in search of the toilet.  On returning they were chattering away like crazy so I just stood aside and watched the passing countryside happy with my decision to make this trip.

A full one and a half hours later I looked over to see them swapping phone numbers so they could stay in touch when they both return to Dnepropetrovsk.

Ms D returned to her carriage and I took my seat again to continue my conversation with Tatiana.

Tatiana asked me some blunt questions.

Is Ms D going to move to Australia with me?

I said, “Maybe, we didn’t know yet. Now we’re getting to know each other but I think she’s very nice”.

Tatiana said, “Ms D is a very good girl.  Very good.  Good mind and good heart. A good person.”

I thought so too.

She asked if I would live in Ukraine and then I realized what Ms D and Tatiana had been talking about and I said that “I might, but I have committemnts in Australia too”.

We talked about many things.  She asked me if I was a Virgo because I reminded me of her husband.  I told her I was and she started making fun of me being punctual, no nonsense and needing to straighten books on tables etc.  It was true… I am a dirty ol’ Virgo to the bone.

She also asked me if I like to cook because her husband is a perfectionist in the kitchen.  I told her I loved to create happiness in the kitchen.

It was a remarkable conversation for many reasons but most of all because it showed me that the myth about all Ukrainian men being bad was just rubbish. Tatiana is very much in love with her husband and while there’s no doubt there are social problems in Ukraine I think we (the customers of the dating sites) are all too ready to believe the propaganda as a reason why those beautiful young, intelligent girls would want old foreigners like us!

There are many happy couples who live their lives FOR each other but there are obviously some that are looking for fulfillment elsewhere.

I wondered why, and I wondered how many of the women that sought husbands overseas might be the dysfunctional ones, and how many of the men were just fed up with the women.

I wouldn’t know because my language skills would maintain the mystery but this day definitely had me thinking again.

I’d asked men in Ukraine about Ukrainian women and sometimes I got responses that included no more than a roll of the eyes and a laugh.  I have done a lot of thought on this but I think it should go into a new thread, or maybe I’ll reopen an old thread because “motivation” is something frequently discussed in RWD.

Ms D had returned to us again just when I’d stood to go and find her but she insisted we stay and continue the conversation with Tatiana.  Ms D will carry the information I find on Tatiana’s family back to her and they both hope to start a friendship that will endure.

As the train rolled into Kiev we said our goodbyes to Tatiana and Ms D and I set off for our weekend in “the big smoke”. 

[Kuna]

First off - please - no more "To Be Continued"

HA!  Sorry, but there's so much more to still post and I wanted to break it into pieces to make it easier to read and get it up there before time drags on too far.

Won't be long now...

Re: "In Love"... You've really got to try Solyanka!  I'm Googling a recipe as we speak!

[Kuna]

I see you and her and three babies speaking an odd mixture of Aussie with a Ukrainian accent within 7 years - maybe 5.  It is all good!  For me, it is just a matter of filling in the blanks. 

What???

"Da mate nyet, but nyet mates thanks da" instead of "Yeah mate naah but naah mate thanks yeah"?

Hmmm.. I'm not sure that works!

[Kuna]

Our Apartment, Guide and Afternoon in Kiev

OK,  It’s probably time to comment on the guide.  I’ve been putting it off but I think it’s important because other newbies like me might be stung the same way I feel like I was stung.

I will still post a full overview of the problems I had but suffice to say I HAD to speak with my guide about the overcharging and the changing quotes.

He wasn’t happy and made some subtle (non-violent) threats and was really very rude.

The amount of overcharging was not the issue.  What I did object to is the fee I was charged before arriving in Ukraine so he could find me the best deals, whereas in fact the fee just turned me into a captive audience.

I know others in here have had good experience with him.  Maybe I had sucker written on my forehead… Maybe he is becoming more ambitious or in need of some quick cash.

Whatever the reason I was unhappy and I spoke to him about it,  he was not at all helpful but he still had some commitment to fulfill upon.

While still on the train and while Ms D was talking with Tatiana I called our guide to see where and when he would meet us to give us the keys for the apartment.

Upon answering he told me he had a cold and was not feeling well… and he had bad news about the apartment.  The owner had let it to someone else and he couldn’t help me.

I was stunned.  I knew it was the result of our conversation in the car on the way to the airport but I wasn’t putting up with any more crap.

I instantly told him that it was ok because these things happen but I will call him back in 10 minutes to find out what else he has arranged.  He started saying that he couldn’t arrange anything because he was ill but I cut him off and simply said that we had a deal and he was arranging an apartment for the weekend, not the owner, so I would call him back to see what he had arranged.

When I called him back I was relieved to hear there was another apartment but he wouldn’t be coming to help us collect the keys and pay.  I didn’t tell Ms D about the problem because I knew she would be worried about having no where to stay but followed the guides vague directions on how to get the keys (it was like pulling teeth to get the facts) and was determined to not let this ruin our weekend.

On arriving at the new address the security door was open but unlike the last apartment there was no visible place for the doorman to “stand guard”.

After a short while a man with some shopping bags came through the security door and I explained to him who we were and asked if he knew who could help.  He spoke very little English but Ms D translated and he said there was no apartment on the fifth floor but there was apartment 25.

I had no idea who this guy was but at least he was friendly so I phoned our guide again and handed the phone to the stranger.  Eventually I took the phone back and was told I could give the money to this man and he would “arrange” the keys for us.  I waited until he got the keys and then we made our way up to the new apartment.

It was OK, but not as nice as the last.  The entry was around the back of the building along a very muddy path but once inside it was relatively comfortable and clean.  It’s not like home but it would do for a night or two.

Ms D settled in and freshened up and headed out to have a walk and continue to get to know each other.

It’s her birthday this weekend and I’m disappointed not to be able to spend it with her.  I get the feeling she doesn’t have many friends at home after living away for a few years and she said that she doesn’t like celebrating birthdays but she will celebrate with her family when she goes to Moscow in March.

I’ve already decided before going to Dnepropetrovsk that this afternoon we would go out shopping for her birthday present and while I know I could have, and maybe should have bought something as a surprise I was looking forward to fulfilling on my plan of a little shopping spree for clothes for her.

We went down to Kreshetic and I pulled her aside to tell her what the plan was for the afternoon.

I told her of our limited budget for the shopping but she could go and buy anything she wanted and I would be her “bag boy” for the day.

She was so excited it was really lovely to see, so we set off in search of clothes she wanted and needed, and things that would make her feel good.

She told me she wanted to buy clothes for work because she needed to make sure she looked good in the office, and to me that said more than a million words could say.

She could have gone out and spent the money on anything she wanted but instead her practical nature directed her to look at the essentials rather than the frivolous.

We walked and walked and walked and walked and she continually told me how unreasonable the prices were in Kiev.  She wasn’t happy with the quality or the style of many things she saw and when she did see something she liked they were out of her size. In one store she found something that she liked that was within budget but the only one in her size left was on display. 

The staff wouldn’t help her get the outfit off the maniquin so I suggested we come back the next day when they weren’t so busy but she was so angry at the bad service she refused to spend the money there on principle.

Eventually she found what she wanted and she was very happy and I felt like I’d made the right decision.

We had a really fun day and it gave me an opportunity to see her interact with many different people and in several different situations.

What I did notice is that she was very friendly and happy when people were welcoming to her but if someone treated her poorly she became very dismissive of them.

I think these were important observations for me.

That night I’d planned on taking her out to a nice restaurant as a birthday celebration but she said that she would prefer to stay in and just “nibble” on some food at the apartment.

We went to the market and I bought some of her favourite foods so we could have as simple but enjoyable night at “home”.

Simple in plan, but not simple food.

Bread, butter, Russian caviar that is MUCH more reasonably prices there than it is at home, smoked fish, cheeses, semi-sweet red wine for her and some beers for me.

We headed off home and climbed that damn hill again because of course she didn’t want to pay “those taxi drivers” again, even though we were laden down with 15 or 20 kilos’ of groceries.

Our night was very pleasant and we shared our food and wine and conversation and continued the process of discovery that would take much more time yet.

Ms D is an interesting girl.  At this point you might think the story is over but the more I get to know her the more questions I have.  There’s no doubt there’s mutual attraction there and we definitely get on really well but I think as we get to know each other more we probably both realize there’s still more to learn.

[Kuna]

Our Last Day in Kiev

On Sunday morning I got up early and set out for the market to get some things for breakfast we forgot. Hopefully I’d return before she woke and she could wake up to the smell of a delicious breakfast cooking.

It was bitterly cold and the wind carried snow (at times) parallel to the road. We’d had a lot of snow overnight and the cars crept along the icy roads at almost walking pace.

When I got to the closest store the doors were closed but there was staff inside so I decided to wait for opening rather than venture further from the apartment.

People came and people went, pulling on the door and moaning when there was no release.

Finally another bloke around my age was standing with me at the door and one final lady came to the door and shook it violently.  The woman inside immediately came to open the door and when my doorstep companion asked a question in Russian she virtually shouted at him and shooshed him away.

We both stood there and laughed I think because we knew SOMEONE had woken up to that for many years.  Maybe someone still was waking up with her?

I asked him what time she said it opened and he drew “15:00” in the snow - five hours away!

After all of the waiting I decided to brave the cold and wind and head back down the hill to find another grocery store.  Eventually I ended up back at my Chicken Dancing Grocer and bought the things I needed and started heading back to the apartment.

As I was in the Metro tunnel I saw a flower vendor and thought it’d be a nice touch to wake Ms D up with breakfast and flowers so I stopped for some roses and continued my short walk home.

Is it the cold that makes walking a real chore in Kiev or is it the added kilos of clothing weighing you down? 

I don’t know, but I knew I was getting sick of this hill!

After a bit of a fiddle and a struggle with the lock I opened the door to a bleary eyed Ms D who kinda noticed the flowers, almost noticed the grocery bags and I think – recognised me!

Ms D had woken with a headache.  She said it “might” have been because of the wine but looking into her beautiful face I could see it was a hangover.

I brought her water, juice and a headache tablet, popped her on the couch and went about preparing breakfast. A few minutes later I could hear the shower running so I knew that her daily routine of “Up, shower, makeup, smile” was going to continue today.

Our day was slow and leisurely as we stuck to the apartment, out of the cold and nursing her hangover.

We talked and napped and talked some more. 

Finally it was time to head to the train station and something surprising happened.

Ms D and I are getting on really well but even though she has “almost” perfect English there are still things that confuse me.

Usually when we’re having a conversation if I get confused I’ve learned not to pursue the questions at that time because it’s almost like we’re on a parallel paths that won’t connect no matter how hard you try to find a way.

I remembered in these boards married men talking of the patience that is needed so when we’re having one of THOSE conversations and when I get confused I let it go and try to raise it later.  Sometimes she’ll raise it and confirm what she was trying to say and mostly we cleared all misunderstandings during our time together.

The thing that really did confuse me though was when she was getting ready to go to the airport she said couldn’t take the flowers with her because it was “too difficult.” 

I’d been on the train and I knew it wasn’t impossible to store the flowers until she got to Dnepr.

I looked at her with a confused face and said, “You’re not taking them?” and her reply was, “No, it’s just too difficult.”

I’ll admit I didn’t get it.  To me, every girl who receives flowers cherishes them and the sentiment and would never leave them behind.

I didn’t ask, still haven’t but it’s one of those things that happens that’s very confusing.

Maybe it would have been too difficult?

Maybe it would have made her too conspicuous when arriving in Dnepropetrovsk train station at 12:30am (and I know she’s a bit nervous being alone late at night). 

Maybe… ummmm… I don’t know, I am still a bit confused but maybe I’m making too much of it?

I will ask her about it because I feel that if I’m confused I should seek more knowledge,  but I’m not sure it’ll make much sense to her if I raise it a few days down the track. 

Anyway, we headed off to the train station and I went onto the train to help her settle in, and then waited on the platform until the train departed. As the train pulled away she had a very sad expression on her face as she waved and while I hope we’ll continue to get to know each other I know distance will be a big challenge for us!

[Kuna]

My Last night in Kiev

After leaving the train station I went back to the apartment and decided to go to O’Briens for a farewell beer. As I walked up the steps I heard the thick murmur of Irish men watching a game of Rugby and when I reached the top of the stairs I saw perhaps 150 men and two girls crammed around the two televisions watching an Ireland V France game.

It took me about half a second to turn around and retreat to the apartment as I decided this wasn’t the final night in town I wanted.

I headed back to the apartment but after an hour I decided the leftover smoked fish and cheese wasn’t enough for dinner so I went back to O’Briens.  I don’t know what I was thinking but I decided to punish myself one more time with their food and a punishment it was.

I’ve got to say…  if you appreciate good food stay away from O’Briens.  I know some people in here talk about eating McDonalds when they’re away and to be honest I think that’s an excellent option if you were faced with a choice between the two.

When I was there I got talking to a 38 year old Englishman who was in Kiev looking for a wife.

He seemed like a nice guy but I saw someone who was thoroughly under-prepared for the trip.

He’d arrived in town hoping to meet a few girls he’d been writing to.  One seemed like a certain scammer and had gone to ground since his arrival and the two others he met were of interest to him but he wasn’t sure of their interest in him.

I told him about some of the things I’d learned in here and invited him to come to our little community for an education. I hope he does and I wish there was a way to find these men BEFORE they go to Kiev so they can benefit from the same education I was given in here.

He seemed like a good bloke, but perhaps not ready to make a connection and decision that could affect the rest of his life.

I also told him about some potential backup plans (Kiev Connections) he might use for the rest of his week in town.

While talking I’d noticed two girls at a table and decided we’d talked enough about girls and we should talk to some of them.  I went over to their table and after some small talk took up a seat and was glad when my new English friend came over a little later.

The girls were nice, not mind shatteringly beautiful, but the exercise of talking to them would hopefully give him the same perspective it gave me when I first arrived.  I think if you’re coming to town and relying solely on the agencies you’ll only see the “hardcore marriage agency view” and possibly miss out on the truth and reality of Ukrainian women.

The pub was getting empty so I suggested we go somewhere else.

The girls wanted to go bowling but my English friend didn’t want to.  I wanted to go to Arena but the girls didn’t want to do that.  We decided on a bar/restaurant (which I forget the name of) up near the National Opera.

I knew we were in trouble when we stopped outside the club because the girls had negotiated a fare of 30 UAH for a trip that was half the length of the trip from the apartment to the train station, and I’d regularly negotiated 25UAH for that trip. The price difference in reality was a pittance but I could see my first experience with “professional daters” coming up!

Once inside I ordered a beer, as did my English friend and the girls ordered something too quickly for me to notice. I’ve made a habit on my trip of paying for drinks round by round because it’s easy to get out of control if you wait for a final tab at the end of the night. Kiev is NOT an inexpensive place to entertain!

I asked for the tab, my English friend handed the waitress a 100UAH note (Meaning to pay for the round) but she said something to him which obviously didn’t hear because he nodded, she spun on her heal and placed the crisp 100UAH note in the bands tip jar. 

My English friend’s jaw dropped but I roared with laughter when I realized what had just happened! 

He tried to get his tip back but that obviously wasn’t going to happen so when the tab arrived I decided to pay as a way of splitting the bill,  AND THE TIP!

When the waitress returned with the bill she brought the girls 2 packets of cigarettes each and when I looked at the bill I saw their drinks, cigarettes and our beers came to 200UAH.

I’ll admit I was tired and in no need of impressing these girls so I told them I thought they were rude and I wasn’t the type of westerner that enjoyed being exploited. 

If they would have ordered beer as they’d been drinking before we joined them I wouldn’t have a problem in the world but knowing we were being blatantly exploited really got up my nose.


They rattled off a few excuses and tried to pull the heart strings by saying they were good girls but “never got to go out” but I was in no mood to be scammed by two girls who we  were just trying to be friendly to.

In hindsight,  for all I know they could have been hookers but what started out to be a friendly drink and a potentially interesting chat turned into a farce. 

I reached over and took their drinks and placed them in front of me and the Englishman and took their cigarettes and asked them to leave.  They were shocked but one wanted insisted on sitting there and trying to give excuses and tell me 200UAH was reasonable for a round of drinks in Kiev.  This was starting to sound like my guide telling me about inflated prices in Kiev and having to be prepared to “pay for what you get” but again I just asked her to leave. 

I’m sorry, but if one thing got to me while in Kiev was the people who were trying to rip us off (and that wasn’t the taxi drivers) who used Kiev’s inflated prices as a reason for the scam.

It was a good lesson to learn because I’ve met so many nice, reasonable people on this trip and yet it took the last night in town before I met girls that were prepared to spend time with some mug foreigners in exchange for drinks and benefits they could never afford at home themselves.

I read in these boards some time ago that no self-respecting girl from FSU would ask for money or exploit a date and I’d have to say this is true.  With almost everyone I met they were reluctant to spend more than they would normally spend (without a date from the west) and yet some obviously see westerners as a meal ticket, and an expensive one at that!

As we finished our drinks the Englishman said he agreed with what I did but I wasn’t looking for endorsement.  I guess the lesson is more important for him because he’ll be in town for another week but it’s something we should all be wary of. 

YES, it’s possible to meet girls on the ground but they won’t all be good girls!

Later, we went off to nightclub I’d been at last week and we had a good time drinking some beers and chatting with some girls who WERE good girls.

I think International Marriage in FSU has opened a lot of opportunities for men to go to Russia and Ukraine to find a compatible partner but it’s also opened many opportunities for people to take advantage of our interest and time in their countries.

The difficult thing is working out who is who because almost everyone is very friendly when you meet them, yet some will be thinking about your wallet more than they’re thinking about the conversation!

BUYER BEWARE!

[groovlstk]

She had been waiting at the International gates for over an hour because that was the only area of the airport she knew from her study travels to Gemany.

Hah, I've flown into DNK a few times but never knew there were separate domestic and international areas, the entire terminal is about the size of my apartment building!

When we arrived at Spartar (I think that was the name… but I’ll check and confirm) I was impressed with a very intimate ambiance and lots of friendly staff with crisp white shirts and big white smiles.

We were lead to a table around the back and were seated in a large comfortable booth facing very large fish tanks alive with a wide assortment of tropical fish.

Man, you're bringing back some very intense memories! I had dinner several times at Sparta. Once I spied a fish lying belly-up in one of the tanks and after that I decided never to order seafood from the menu  I believe Michelangelo also had dinner there, it's a nice place to bring a date: quiet, reasonably priced, and smack in the middle of the city center.

This was my best priced meal in Ukraine considering we both had solyanka (soup), mains (I had a delicious seafood medley called “Neptune’s Harvest of the Sea”, she had a pork dish with mushrooms), Ms D had wine (semi-sweet Georgian of course) and I had a beer that I didn’t quite finish for fear of falling asleep.

Did the solyanka you ate in Kiev differ from that of Dnepr? I found that both borscht and solyanka differed widely as everyone seems to have their own personal recipe. Some I'd die for, others were pretty good, and a few recipes were disgustingly oily...

Again I talk her into getting a taxi but she’s very upset the taxi driver will charge us 25UAH. She tells me she gets the bus to work and would never catch a taxi because they just rip people off.

Your girl might not be too far off. On my last trip to Dnepr, whenever I kept our interpretor out past 11PM I paid for her taxi ride home. Each time, she'd warn me to stay away from her as she approached the taxi stand on Karl Marx St., as the drivers would instantly recognize me as a foreigner and my presence would shout "RICH BOYFRIEND," for which they'd adjust her fare accordingly.

I reached over and took their drinks and placed them in front of me and the Englishman and took their cigarettes and asked them to leave.  They were shocked but one wanted insisted on sitting there and trying to give excuses and tell me 200UAH was reasonable for a round of drinks in Kiev.  This was starting to sound like my guide telling me about inflated prices in Kiev and having to be prepared to “pay for what you get” but again I just asked her to leave.

Bravo! There are milquetoasts on this forum who will rationalize the behavior of any pretty girl and probably condemn what you did, but I for one applaud. If enough guys would clean up the messes made by foolish Westerners who toss cash around like it was nothing, these girls would have to find a new sport.

Great TR, looking forward to reading your wrap-up!

[BillyB]

You done good taking away the drinks and cigarettes from those pro daters. I've read too many trip reports where guys don't know when to walk away from these type of women and keeping them in business. These men go along with the flow of the women and next thing you know is that they end up buying a woman a $400 pair of shoes and to top it off, they defend their actions as the right thing to do.

[Kuna]

Hah, I've flown into DNK a few times but never knew there were separate domestic and international areas, the entire terminal is about the size of my apartment building!

I KNOW!!!  but...  if you stand outside looking at the terminal the International arrivals is in a door at the far left hand end, near the news stand building.  International departures is in the main hall but through a security gate to the left... domestic arrivals and departures is straight ahead.

Man, you're bringing back some very intense memories! I had dinner several times at Sparta. Once I spied a fish lying belly-up in one of the tanks and after that I decided never to order seafood from the menu   I believe Michelangelo also had dinner there, it's a nice place to bring a date: quiet, reasonably priced, and smack in the middle of the city center.

Yeah... I thought it was excellent and if things work out with Ms D I think I'll become a regular there.  I did have the seafood and it was excellent, but maybe my dish had only been laying belly up for a short while.  

Have you seen the new shopping centre a block or two away from Sparta?  Very impressive...  beautiful in fact and GREAT "people" watching!

Did the solyanka you ate in Kiev differ from that of Dnepr? I found that both borscht and solyanka differed widely as everyone seems to have their own personal recipe. Some I'd die for, others were pretty good, and a few recipes were disgustingly oily...

Naah... both were similar.  I found one place in Kiev that had solyanka and it wasn't as nice as the others I'd had but in general all of it that I had was good...

Your girl might not be too far off. On my last trip to Dnepr, whenever I kept our interpretor out past 11PM I paid for her taxi ride home. Each time, she'd warn me to stay away from her as she approached the taxi stand on Karl Marx St., as the drivers would instantly recognize me as a foreigner and my presence would shout "RICH BOYFRIEND," for which they'd adjust her fare accordingly.

Ya know... I didn't really have a problem with taxi drivers.  Yes they started their prices high but once I knew what I should be paying and you tell them a lower figure. They're scouffe at me and I'd turn to walk off, they'd reduce the price to almost the real price, I'd offer the real price and we'd meet there or maybe 5UAH higher.

At times I was getting cheaper prices than Ms D because she'd want to stand there and argue with them and I'd just turn around and walk towards another cab.

Example:

Independence Square to Central Station in Kiev can be had for 25-30UAH.  Most of the time I got 25UAH. They always started at 50UAH.

Independence Square to the Airport is doable for 120UAH... 150UAH at the most, which is MUCH cheaper than the guides option at USD$40.  One guy started at 200UAH.

[Kuna]

You done good taking away the drinks and cigarettes from those pro daters. I've read too many trip reports where guys don't know when to walk away from these type of women and keeping them in business. These men go along with the flow of the women and next thing you know is that they end up buying a woman a $400 pair of shoes and to top it off, they defend their actions as the right thing to do.

You're right Billy...  I'm not cheap and in fact I'm probably too generous at times but I draw the line at blatant exploitation.  If those girls had of ordered beers or a wine at a similar price and even if they needed or wanted a packet of cigarettes I probably wouldn't have objected (though the cigs would have been pushing it).  When it clear exploitation I don't NEED company that badly.  Maybe some men do!

[timothe]

Great Trip Report!!  Brings back lots of memories!!  Thanks for sharing your experience.

[DKMM]

Yes Kuna, good memories of a first trip!  I don't know if you are back yet or what but I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in a postlogue.  Also, you seemed to gloss over the departure?  Or was it really that non-eventful.

I'll tell you my opinion on the flowers thing.  You can't read too much into things like that.  These girls ARE different and if you try to analyze by comparing their actions to western women, its futile.  In her mind it simply may have been too much of a hassle to bring them with her.  I wouldn't take it as a sign of her feelings for you at all. 

Like I've said so many times before, the moments that count are after you depart.  Does she send you SMS's and what the contents of her communication to you are etc.  Although, even then you can be led down a confusing path as I'm sure you've seen.  Just remember, her world is totally different from yours!!

[Kuna]

Yes Kuna, good memories of a first trip!  I don't know if you are back yet or what but I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in a postlogue.  Also, you seemed to gloss over the departure?  Or was it really that non-eventful.

I'll tell you my opinion on the flowers thing.  You can't read too much into things like that.  These girls ARE different and if you try to analyze by comparing their actions to western women, its futile.  In her mind it simply may have been too much of a hassle to bring them with her.  I wouldn't take it as a sign of her feelings for you at all. 

Like I've said so many times before, the moments that count are after you depart.  Does she send you SMS's and what the contents of her communication to you are etc.  Although, even then you can be led down a confusing path as I'm sure you've seen.  Just remember, her world is totally different from yours!!

"The departure"?  You mean Ms D's departure?  Hmmm... I'll have to go back and read that because I didn't mean to gloss over it...

[Gator]

Kuna,

Brilliant analysis of your trip and your encounters.  It should help many men prepare for their first trip (and help those men who plan a second trip after being unprepared for the first).

I was wrong.  I always believed that you would return to Oz with their two women to ponder.  When a woman seems as captivating and compatible as Ms. D, there is no reason to keep a second woman on a string.

What impressed me the most about Ms. D?  You wrote something on the order of -  the more you learn about her, you realize that there is so much more to know.  She has a lot of depth, and you do too.  An intellectual connection is enduring and fulfilling.

Interesting comment you made about whether the RW/UW women we meet are the dysfunctional ones.  It would be interesting to hear the version told by their ex-’s.  I have my opinions, but that is something for another thread.  I found many of them to be intelligent, adventurous and strong (not willing to take any crap from anyone).

Speaking of not taking any crap – I love how you drunk the cocktails ordered by the two O’Briens bar flies and kept the cigarettes too.  I guarantee that those two women suddenly had a lot of respect for you.  The men buying the $400 shoes (I have heard of the example of a $2000 coat) get no respect and no loving.   Classic move – should be put in the playbook for newbies.

If you are still traveling home - Happy Trails

[Mir]

You keep reinforcing my theory that guides are not much help in saving money.
I think for a person like you who is well travelled and able to make friends a guide is a total waste of time and I would have told you before you set off,in fact I think I probably did.
I would have also recommended you apartment renting agency run by an English man who is very good and efficient and would arrange airport transfer for 125 H each way so you don't need to haggle.In fact if you stay for over 5 days the transfer is free.

[Mir]

Let me get this straight:

You are defiantly in love with Solyanka but not sure about the girls?

[Bruno]

I was wrong.  I always believed that you would return to Oz with their two women to ponder.  When a woman seems as captivating and compatible as Ms. D, there is no reason to keep a second woman on a string.

Hmmm ... i am not sure that Kuma have already make a choice between the two alphabet ladies... and really, it is not the right moment for it... Go home, rest a little and think a lot... and only make your choice... of course, don't keep these two ladies without honest reply about your own choice during several weeks... but now is maybe not the right time for choose... let the thing cool down a little and allow yourself to make a rational decision for you future...

Kuma, If we remove the "guide problem", your trip is similar to my own trip... but some of the ready here need to realize that so method don't work for everybody... same for a first trip, you seem able to take care of yourself in foreign country, the guiide was not needed... but usual guys who don't ready themself enough cannot make it without guide, translator or agency... your story is maybe the best evidence that a forum like RWD is the best way for ready a trip and spare a lot of problem and money...

Not sure that your story is already a success story but it is not a failure... you have learn a lot about FSU spirit and culture... these knowledge is what newbies need to know... and your trip report very good writen is a source of information for all newbies... fresh and recent information...

Next step will be choose the right ladies between the two... followed by more visit... followed by the administration problem.... so, you are on the right way but it is only the early beginning...

Maybe a little off topic, but i am very curious to know about the guy who life next door to you and who have family in Ukraine... maybe you don't already know everything about your origine but it seem that your help can allow a other Australian/Ukrainian familly to reach a goal that you have fixed for yourself...

Fully off topic... it seem to me that our Australian members here have a more rational method that a lot of our American friend... You have receive a lot of help from RWD but i think that you can give now a lot of help too for newbies... Kuna, i am sure that soon of later, you will have the perfect wife ( and children ) for you... you are on the right way... you have make nothing wrong... and the future is bright 

[jb]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think it would be productive to know the name of the guide?  It might save a future newbie traveler some grief to know who this person is and to avoid using that service.

[Mir]

I may be wrong but I think the guide was someone recommended by a few here!

[Kuna]

More notes on the departure at the train station

Someone had commented that I'd glossed over the departure at the train station with Ms D but I didn't mean to...

We'd had a nice, comfortable day together.  There's physical and emotional intimacy there and I believe that we're both thinking along the same lines.

I knew she was very sad to be leaving and I'll admit I was very sad she was going too.  Once she'd settled into her seat we said a very quiet though tender farewell because we both know we'll meet again soon.  I'll cover more of that in my final summary of the trip.

Whilst standing on the platform I couldn't resist calling her so as she sat in her seat and talked to me on the phone our eyes were fixed on each other and nothing could have separated us at that moment.

It was a truly powerful moment.  As the train jerked to a start I felt pain... physical pain, and I heard her voice feel the same pain.  

We'll meet again and we've talked at every point of my transit on my way home.  She's special for many reasons.  Whether we're compatible is something only time will tell.

Kuna


Attached is my last pic of Ms D...

[I/O]

Fully off topic... it seem to me that our Australian members here have a more rational method that a lot of our American friend... You have receive a lot of help from RWD

Bruno  That's just a matter of numbers you are seeing here.  Make no mistake, there is plenty of "Dumb Trip Wonders" down here in Aus also.  Most of them have confined themselves to other forums where everyone says what they want to hear.

I/O

[IAmZon]

Yes, this TR needed that polished ending for Ms. D and you.

You are by far one of the most psycholocially "well balanced" members at RWD, and it is clearly demonstrated in your report.  Can't wait for the wrap up.

Give this manuscript to the guys at HBO; and WALAA - I can imagine a hit series.

[Kuna]

Kuna,

Brilliant analysis of your trip and your encounters.  It should help many men prepare for their first trip (and help those men who plan a second trip after being unprepared for the first).

I was wrong.  I always believed that you would return to Oz with their two women to ponder.  When a woman seems as captivating and compatible as Ms. D, there is no reason to keep a second woman on a string.

What impressed me the most about Ms. D?  You wrote something on the order of -  the more you learn about her, you realize that there is so much more to know.  She has a lot of depth, and you do too.  An intellectual connection is enduring and fulfilling.

Interesting comment you made about whether the RW/UW women we meet are the dysfunctional ones.  It would be interesting to hear the version told by their ex-’s.  I have my opinions, but that is something for another thread.  I found many of them to be intelligent, adventurous and strong (not willing to take any crap from anyone).

Speaking of not taking any crap – I love how you drunk the cocktails ordered by the two O’Briens bar flies and kept the cigarettes too.  I guarantee that those two women suddenly had a lot of respect for you.  The men buying the $400 shoes (I have heard of the example of a $2000 coat) get no respect and no loving.   Classic move – should be put in the playbook for newbies.

If you are still traveling home - Happy Trails

Gator,

Firstly I regard you advice and counsel as one of the most important parts of the learning I got prior to my trip so I thank you for your continued interest and insights.  I hope we can meet one day so I can shake your hand!

So many members here gave me good advice, and I'll find a way to thank each in time, but for me you're balanced view was settling and gave me confidence that this high risk pursuit WAS possible.

Now...  Ms D...  You're right, there's an intellectual connection there but there's also a unique thread of humour and good fun that I am extremely attracted to.  I have one more post about my trip home prior to my posting my summary and in that post I'm comment on Australian humour (because of an experience in Singapore Airport) and without a doubt I see her sense of fun fitting into my life really well.

I also respect the fact that she's voiced her concerns about moving to another foreign country after her difficult time adjusting to Germany and she takes this process as seriously as I do.  She had one big request of me during our time together...  She wants to speak with my mother.

I won't delve too deeply into my personal relationships at home but I am very close to my mother and Ms D knows the stories of my past.  I asked her questions about living in Australia and her thoughts about settling in and she's said that if we do get to that point she feels it would be best to live close to my family rather than living the "funky city lifestyle".  She sees that my family could and would be a part of her initial support network if she comes to Oz, and therefore she wants to talk to my mother to explain  her feelings, wishes and desires.\

this was a big green light to me because again it proved her character.  She's looking to live within a strong extended family unit and while she understands my current lifestyle she'd prefer to live in the suburbs and entertain my family rather than live life in the "fast lane".

It's also appealing to me... so I guess that's one point for compatibility.

Re: The drinks and the bar flies...  One just got up and left but the other, in a strange way, was probably not just explaining her perspective but appealing for the time to explain her perspective.  The situation was enough to convince me that I'm not and never will be interested in a girl that assumes that sort of behaviour is OK...  My advice to anyone in the same situation is to NOT maintain the charade, these are girls you don't want to be with anyway!

Kuna

[Kuna]

You keep reinforcing my theory that guides are not much help in saving money.
I think for a person like you who is well travelled and able to make friends a guide is a total waste of time and I would have told you before you set off,in fact I think I probably did.
I would have also recommended you apartment renting agency run by an English man who is very good and efficient and would arrange airport transfer for 125 H each way so you don't need to haggle.In fact if you stay for over 5 days the transfer is free.

Mir,  You're right... Guides WILL NOT save us money but they will make out travels easier.  I might seem like I'm delaying but I think there are important things to say about guides and I will when I wind up my trip.

If I may be so bold,  I think you should ost the contact details of your Engish contact for apartments and transfers in the wiki or find a place for this information.

Let me get this straight:

You are defiantly in love with Solyanka but not sure about the girls?

HAHAHAHA... I understand solyank more than I understand the girls so far... but I DO have very strong feelings for both, especially (and in a different way) for Ms D...

Kuna

[Zoro]

She's looking to live within a strong extended family unit and while she understands my current lifestyle she'd prefer to live in the suburbs and entertain my family rather than live life in the "fast lane".

Kuna, this is your most important discovery about fsu girls~they truly are family centered.  This is fact, and not myth.  Another non-myth is they are stubborn and highly opinionated! LOL

Great TR; thanks for sharing.

Z