Kuna's Ukraine Trip Report

[Kuna]

Hmmm ... i am not sure that Kuma have already make a choice between the two alphabet ladies... and really, it is not the right moment for it... Go home, rest a little and think a lot... and only make your choice... of course, don't keep these two ladies without honest reply about your own choice during several weeks... but now is maybe not the right time for choose... let the thing cool down a little and allow yourself to make a rational decision for you future...

Kuma, If we remove the "guide problem", your trip is similar to my own trip... but some of the ready here need to realize that so method don't work for everybody... same for a first trip, you seem able to take care of yourself in foreign country, the guiide was not needed... but usual guys who don't ready themself enough cannot make it without guide, translator or agency... your story is maybe the best evidence that a forum like RWD is the best way for ready a trip and spare a lot of problem and money...

Not sure that your story is already a success story but it is not a failure... you have learn a lot about FSU spirit and culture... these knowledge is what newbies need to know... and your trip report very good writen is a source of information for all newbies... fresh and recent information...

Next step will be choose the right ladies between the two... followed by more visit... followed by the administration problem.... so, you are on the right way but it is only the early beginning...

Maybe a little off topic, but i am very curious to know about the guy who life next door to you and who have family in Ukraine... maybe you don't already know everything about your origine but it seem that your help can allow a other Australian/Ukrainian familly to reach a goal that you have fixed for yourself...

Fully off topic... it seem to me that our Australian members here have a more rational method that a lot of our American friend... You have receive a lot of help from RWD but i think that you can give now a lot of help too for newbies... Kuna, i am sure that soon of later, you will have the perfect wife ( and children ) for you... you are on the right way... you have make nothing wrong... and the future is bright 

Bruno,  I agree with almost everything you've said above and will leave my final wrap up until the dust has settled.  I think all questions will be answered.

I will say that Australians are, I think, fairly down to earth, practical and open minded... but we have men with the same issues here as exist around the rest of the world.  I'm sure there are Australian sex tourists and dreamers too but they may not be on the same scale as the Americans or Englishmen going to Ukraine.

Kuna

[Kuna]

Kuna, this is your most important discovery about fsu girls~they truly are family centered.  This is fact, and not myth.  Another non-myth is they are stubborn and highly opinionated! LOL

Great TR; thanks for sharing.

Z

Zoro,

Interesting... but only because I think your comment is a generalisation. 

We hope to find a family oriented girl in FSU but I don't thnk all are.  I think just like girls here some treasure family and some don't.  I do think there APPEARS to be a higher proportion of girls in FSU that appear to be more family oriented than at home but marrying a FSU girl doesn't mean you'll get one that's family oriented.

We MUST get to know the girl not believe the stereotypes.  I believe only then we'll be equipped to make the big decisions.

Just my thoughts...

Kuna

[Zoro]

K,
Generalizations exist because there are patterns that occur over and over again.  I've dated more than 10 fsu girls, and all were very family centered and were appalled at how children in the USA are not as committmed to parents as they are.

I know nothing about Australia parental connections, but I think that fsu girls are correct when you consider how many parents in the US hardly ever see their kids and then go off to a nursing home to die in their old age.  Another generalization, yes.  But it happens often.

Z

[groovlstk]

Have you seen the new shopping centre a block or two away from Sparta?  Very impressive...  beautiful in fact and GREAT "people" watching!

Do you mean the strip mall with Celentano's on the corner and mobile/electronics/fashion stores along the wide walkway? There are also many benches along the walkway. One thing I remember vividly is that during all my trips to Celentano's, I saw a very gruff, deeply tanned babushka with a voice like gravel on the street corner bellowing out marshrutka routes at the top of her lungs. She does it day in and day out, in searing heat and withering cold, I wish I'd taken her photo as I developed big respect for her.

I'm sure you don't need me to point this out, but in regards to your girl's decision to take you to Sparta, she did you well. There are at least four other restaurants in the vicinity that are much more expensive.

[BillyB]

We MUST get to know the girl not believe the stereotypes. 

With Russia having a 65% divorce rate and about a 70% abortion rate, I thought the stereotype or facts in this case would imply Russians are not family oriented. Regardless, judge each individual as an individual.

[Kuna]

My Trip Home

This morning I must return to my home and get back into daily life.  I’ve been away for almost a month and during this time I feel like I have learned things that will change my life forever.

I’ve really had the most amazing adventure through my experiences in Germany, Latvia and Ukraine and I’ve met many fascinating people.

Perhaps most importantly I’ve had the opportunity to absorb a completely vibe of a different country that is, in part, a part of my family heritage.

I researched so much information before leaving for Ukraine but nothing could prepare me for the reality of what it would be like.  What you can’t absorb are the personal experiences of others but RWD has been a huge part of what I feel like was a successful trip.

As a newbie, we struggle with putting the myths into perspective because the myths are what we want to believe.  We come to RWD to gather more information but at times the feedback doesn’t seem make much sense.

Once I hit the ground I started to understand reality, and it was definitely more aligned to the RWD view of the FSU rather than the agency view.  Nothing can substitute time on the ground, but without a doubt RWD is the best resource I found to prepare me for the journey!

I can really understand why so many successful men are heavily critical of the agencies but I do think the agencies still play an important role.

I still haven’t made any final decisions on relationships but obviously Ms D is heavily on my mind.  We seem to be very comfortable together and we both want to continue to learn about each other.  Ms C is certainly very special too and has wonderful qualities but I’ll wait for my thoughts and feelings settle before I make any final decisions.

On the morning of my departure my guide called about the keys for the apartment and said he was still sick so couldn’t come to collect them.  He asked me to drop the keys off at another apartment building but after thinking for 3 seconds I realize I would have to take all my luggage, lock the apartment, make my way to the other apartment and drop the keys off before heading to the airport.

I wasn’t prepared to do that because I don’t feel like I got a fair deal so I told him I couldn’t do it and someone would have to come to pick up the keys.

I was definitely making my own way to the airport and I was more prepared to pay a little extra to a taxi driver than continue the relationship with him.

Finally the cleaner arrived and took the keys.  As with the last apartment I left a little note written in my childlike Cyrillic hand writing and a drawing of an Australian flag hoping the people at the bottom of the International Marriage food chain realize we also appreciate their efforts and attention to detail.

I headed off onto the street to find a taxi and negotiated a price of 120UAH with the first car that stopped (That’s 33% cheaper than the price I was quoted as the “best price” by my guide ).  He started at 150UAH but it isn’t hard to get a good price.

I know I keep going on about the price discrepancies with my guide and I don’t fully blame him for the problems but after some thought I’d say DEFINITELY the problem is the business model… not that he is totally unethical.

He is serving his interests under his business model not ours, but I have thoughts on this that I will post later.

It was snowing heavily again this morning so the trip to the airport was slow but uneventful.

On arrival I checked my luggage in without issue and had a short wait before boarding.

One of the last things I did before boarding was to check my email and found a sweet, but slightly confusing email from Ms D.  I responded to the email and called her to say goodbye and we had a short and enjoyable conversation again.

I think the confusion comes from a natural “clunkiness” that happens early in a relationship but it’s exaggerated because we’re trying to fit a lot of learning into a very short time.

I think there’s definitely something there with her… but I’m also certain it’ll take a while to get to know her well enough for any big decisions.

The irony is that I am more confident of what makes Ms C tick and therefore more comfortable with what might be in the future, but Ms D remains the one heavily on my mind.

I don’t know… I need more thought and clarity.

Frankfurt was a pain in the butt again.

On entry to Germany I had to check my liquid hand luggage because I was traveling TO another EU country and on exit I was told I had to check my hand luggage because I was traveling FROM an EU country.

It wasn’t a big issue but it was frustrating to have to go all the way back out of the airport to the check-in counters so my advice if you’re traveling through an EU country is to just check all your liquids before you try to board!


I’ve got to tell you something…

I’m currently sitting in Singapore airport and there’s two Aussie “blokes” next to me absolutely doubled up with laughter about something that I’m not sure either really understands.

One will say something they’ll both double up in laughter… The other says something they double up again. 

It’s really wonderful to see people losing control and laughing so hard that veins are extended and breath is unavailable after spending time in Ukraine and not seeing one man laugh.

The seriousness of Ukrainians is something that concerns me because humour and laughter are important parts of my life.

Thankfully both Ms D and Ms C have very warm personalities and both enjoy humour and laughter but some that visit the FSU may leave return home and think that Ukrainians have no sense of humour. I’m implore everyone to engage the people wherever possible and keep an open mind until you “find” understanding.

I started writing this in Singapore Airport and now I’m at home editing it so please forgive me if you feel like you’re in a time warp…

My next goal is to let my thoughts and feelings settle a bit and then to close my report with my final thoughts and ideas.

I’ll also add posts regarding “IMPORTANT FACTS FOR NEWBIES”, “City Information” and my thoughts on “The Use of Guides to Save Money”.

Kuna

[Kuna]

Do you mean the strip mall with Celentano's on the corner and mobile/electronics/fashion stores along the wide walkway? There are also many benches along the walkway. One thing I remember vividly is that during all my trips to Celentano's, I saw a very gruff, deeply tanned babushka with a voice like gravel on the street corner bellowing out marshrutka routes at the top of her lungs. She does it day in and day out, in searing heat and withering cold, I wish I'd taken her photo as I developed big respect for her.

I'm sure you don't need me to point this out, but in regards to your girl's decision to take you to Sparta, she did you well. There are at least four other restaurants in the vicinity that are much more expensive.

Groov,

No, I don't think that was the place...  Apparently it a new shopping mall that's only been open for a month or so.  It sits dominantly on the corner maybe 1 or two blocks up from Sparta and I think it might take up almost, or all of a city block.  It has a lot of white and grey marble and startling lighting.  I wish I was in town longer to see the whole centre but I think I remember Ms D commenting that there is a bowling alley on the top floor.

When you next return to Dnepr I'm sure you'll visit... looks like the new "centre of town".


Re: Ms D's choice of Sparta... Yes, when it came to money and spending I trusted, and still trust her implicitly.  Without trying to "test her" she proved right from the beginning that she was the type of girl who had the right intentions towards our friendship.

Kuna

[Kuna]

K,
Generalizations exist because there are patterns that occur over and over again.  I've dated more than 10 fsu girls, and all were very family centered and were appalled at how children in the USA are not as committmed to parents as they are.

I know nothing about Australia parental connections, but I think that fsu girls are correct when you consider how many parents in the US hardly ever see their kids and then go off to a nursing home to die in their old age.  Another generalization, yes.  But it happens often.

Z

Zoro,

My point was that the stereotype that ALL FSU WOMEN are family oriented might make some poor newbie believe that ALL FSU WOMEN are family oriented.

I think that question is one that each man will have to judge when he meets each woman. I suspect there's a higher proportion of family oriented girls in FSU that at home (That is, they would care for their parents personally in their old age rather than put them in nursing homes etc) b ut that may have something to do with necessity and the difference in social systems.

I really believe we need to break the stereotypes so newbies understand women in FSU are just as diverse at home.  The girls are not all good, they're not all bad, but they're definitely different.

You said:  Generalizations exist because there are patterns that occur over and over again.

Based on the nights I went to pubs and clubs I would say there is a FAR higher proportion of prostitutes in Kiev than in my home city... but that doesn't mean all girls from Kiev are or were hookers.  The pattern would suggest so though if we take your comment as fact.

I was shocked and disappointed to see so many girls willing to have sex with a westerner for $'s but at the same time can understand why they're doing it.

Every girl in Ukraine is an individual who is dealing with her own life experiences and aiming to achieve her own goals.  Yes, their society and culture are different but that doesn't make all girls the same.

Just my thoughts...

Kuna

[jb]

Kuna said:

I was shocked and disappointed to see so many girls willing to have sex with a westerner for %body%#039;s but at the same time can understand why they're doing it.

I think you might also be shocked to learn how many of those same girls are also listed with MOB agencies.  Marriage to a foreigner is a good way for a girl to leave a sordid past behind.

It's definately a "Buyer Beware" situation.  We have discussed some of the red flag indicators a man has to look out for in other threads.

[Zoro]

Based on the nights I went to pubs and clubs I would say there is a FAR higher proportion of prostitutes in Kiev than in my home city... but that doesn't mean all girls from Kiev are or were hookers.  The pattern would suggest so though if we take your comment as fact.

That's a bit of an overreach in logic, Kuna.  You have to use some geographic boundaries, you know.  Sure, in the nightclub district MORE girls are hookers than in your home city.  Maybe even in the whole city of Kiev.  But that's a poor example, IMHO.

But I think we both agree that girls in the FSU tend to be more concerned about their mothers than the general population in the USA (don't know about down under).

Newbies can see for themselves, but my prediction is that most of all girls will want their mother's approval of any foreign guy they get serious with.  And I also expect that once you get married, MOL will be a big force in your life, no matter how far she lives from you.

I also noticed your comment that Ms D. wanted to meet YOUR mom.....think she is interested in family? LOL

Good TR, and good luck as you sort it out.

Z

[Zoro]

Kuna said:
I think you might also be shocked to learn how many of those same girls are also listed with MOB agencies.  Marriage to a foreigner is a good way for a girl to leave a sordid past behind.

It's definately a "Buyer Beware" situation.  We have discussed some of the red flag indicators a man has to look out for in other threads.

Excellent point, JB. 

Z

[Makkin]

Hello Kuna,

  Thanks for the trip report. It was good to read your thoughts and actions on your visit. Was wondering if you visited ....Historical documents on your ancestry?

  Geelong Wilcats? My ex-brother in law played for them and if I recall he was bestest and fairest (sp) 1973 or near that year? He coaches in Perth and helps in the family business. I believe he played footy for 17 years. Missed the MVP barely on a political election sort of thing..lol

  Looking forward to your thoughts and developments and wish you well in all things.

Makkin

[jb]

Kuna,

You've mentioned the food a few times,,, what I want to know is; did you acquire a taste for strong tea, white bread, butter or cream cheese, and red caviar for breakfast?  That, IMHO, is the perfect Russian style breakfast.  Next best is pancakes and caviar,,, but that takes a bit of cooking  to get done.

[Kuna]

Kuna,

You've mentioned the food a few times,,, what I want to know is; did you acquire a taste for strong tea, white bread, butter or cream cheese, and red caviar for breakfast?  That, IMHO, is the perfect Russian style breakfast.  Next best is pancakes and caviar,,, but that takes a bit of cooking  to get done.

jb,

I wouldn't say I acquired a taste for the white bread, butter and caviar but it wasn't offensive to me.  To be honest the caviar I bought was a bit tasteless even though I'd assumed price = quality and bought the most expensive in the market. 

The strong black tea with lemon was a mainstay throughout the trip and I enjoyed it... but damn I'm looking forward to a brutally strong coffee when I hit the office today!

I really loved the food.  At times I would sit and reminisce about my childhood as I ate cabbage rolls for dinner.

Now I can't wait to get back and experience more variety in what I was eating...

Kuna

[jinx13]

 Hi Kuna,

 First off, thanks again for the excellent T/R, lots of details and introspective moments captured, great for newbies and oldies 

 A few observations and questions...

 Can you tell in more detail what happened with the girls that you felt were exploiting you? Ok you went to a bar/club with them, and they ordered drinks and cigs without asking you, was that the problem? You were there, so I'm sure you had good reason to do what you did, I'm just trying to figure out what happened, usually if you take girls to a club, it's expected that the guys pay for drinks, cigs, etc. Was it because they ordered expensive drinks?

 I know the feeling though, feeling sorta used...it happens in the FSU. My g/f says these girls see you as "walking money"  I had a similar experience in Yalta, I met sisters that seemed to want to meet me somewhere whenever there was a cover charge involved (clubs & private beach) and of course I was expected to pay for all. First time I let it slide, but after that I would say, ok I'll meet you there later, after they already entered   

 I also know what you mean about the humor, or lack of in Ukraine. I think it's more of a "don't make a fool of yourself in public" thing. Russian's are very private, the way they act at home and the way they are on the street are completely different. For example the frowning babushka shop assistant is probably all smiles and very warm person if you were to visit her at home. Humor is like that too there I think, I remember you writing about the waitress saying something like "no jokes today?" I then warned you about the sarcasm and teasing, they just don't find it amusing sometimes   

 My g/f often talks about Americans and their stupid jokes, she's getting used to it, and she plays around with me too, we laugh quite a bit, but she still doesn't like "crude" jokes. I wouldn't say she is too serious at all, just different types of humor in the FSU and West. I think she has caught on to the sarcasm thing though, she uses it quite a bit herself now!

 Ok, looking forward to your final thought on this grand adventure. Good to be back home in your bed though isn't it? 

[Mir]

Only in Ukraine it must be black rather then white bread.


As for smiley faces I think there is a direct co-relation between year round sunshine and smiles.All Scandinavians are like Russians/Ukrainians and only rarely smile while Italians and Spaniards would crack up readily.
I think you will see more smiles in summer as the days are longer and people get more sunshine.

[Darth Vader]

Groov,

No, I don't think that was the place...  Apparently it a new shopping mall that's only been open for a month or so.  It sits dominantly on the corner maybe 1 or two blocks up from Sparta and I think it might take up almost, or all of a city block.  It has a lot of white and grey marble and startling lighting.  I wish I was in town longer to see the whole centre but I think I remember Ms D commenting that there is a bowling alley on the top floor.

I thought we had a photo of the new mall with the bowling alley on top, but we don't.  But, here is the newly redesigned European Square with Europea mall....to get to Most mall turn left from the view of this picture.

[DKMM]

Kuna,
Thanks for the follow up.  Didn't mean to sound nosey but I'm living through you right now.    And since you are such a good writer we like to hear all the details you can provide.

I think the disconnection about the family thing was that you were thinking along the lines of not every girl is family centered in the way that she wants to settle down and have a family.  I agree, in my experience American girls want to settle and have a family more than FSU girls seem to (disclaimer: I've only been with girls there ages 19-23).  Could be why their low birth rate...

But what Zoro meant was they are extremely loyal to their existing families.  Their parents are the 2 most important people in their world, other family members next and I have seen that without exception.  That's one thing that draws me into them, because that characteristic in a wife would be very good to have.  I also tend to think they would pass that along to the kids.

I know what you mean about reverse culture shock on the way back.  You will find somethings about brisbane that you love more and take for granted less.

[Kuna]

I thought we had a photo of the new mall with the bowling alley on top, but we don't.  But, here is the newly redesigned European Square with Europea mall....to get to Most mall turn left from the view of this picture.

Darth,

Exactly.  The new mall i was talking about is to the left of the view in this picture... maybe 1 block away.

Kuna

[Kuna]

Trip Roundup

Well, I’m home but I’m not quite back to normal.

Obviously I’m still tired because the flight home is an absolute killer but added to that I definitely don’t feel settled.

This trip has made me think about many things and I believe it’ll take a few weeks for everything to settle in my mind. The only thing I’m sure about is that I’m thrilled to have done this trip.

Firstly it was very grounding for me to explore the places where my family came from.  It wasn’t just the places that left an impression though.

So many fascinating people became a part of the montage that was my holiday and they’ll never realize the impact they had on my thoughts.

Of course I was also focused on meeting some girls and hoped to find someone I could focus on and develop a long term relationship with.

Ms C is beautiful and has a very sweet and gentle nature.  Our communication leading up to my visit was the strongest I had and I do have feelings for her.

Ms D was equally of interest to me before my trip and she proved to be every bit as delightful as I’d expected.  It’s interesting to me that they are similar in some ways, but very different in others.

To be honest, I think I could be happy with either of these girls based on what I know but it would be unfair and improper to let one think that there may be a future when there’s not.

In short… I need to spend more time with Ms D.  I need to get to know her better and I’m very happy when I hear her say we need more time together too.  Happy not only because it’s possible we might have a long term future together, but also because I know she’s taking the possibility of that relationship very seriously too.

This isn’t something we want to jump into!

She is a beautiful girl and her personality gives me energy.  I like the way we laugh together and I have immense respect for her intelligence and thoughtfulness.

There are things I don’t understand but it’s unreasonable to expect in depth knowledge after a few months of correspondence and a few days together.

Some of those things that I didn’t understand were of concern to me, others are things I am sure I’ll understand when we spend more time together.

I called her at each stop on my way home.  She emailed me a few times.  Since I’ve been home we’ve been speaking on the phone and continuing the email and I’m sure that will continue until we meet again.

Sadly she fell ill with a cold when I left so she wasn’t feeling too good yesterday.  Today she’s had to take the day off work and if there was any way I could be there to comfort her I would be there in a flash.

It’s very difficult to know someone you care for is ill and alone, and I imagine that feeling of helplessness will continue for quite some time.

At this stage we’re considering two options for future meetings.

I was intending to return to Ukraine in July to live with her for a month and see how we went in a home-like setting.  During that trip we’d also go to Moscow to meet her family.

While together in Kiev we discussed the possibility of her getting time off work so she could visit me in Australia.  As a result of her role within her company and some of my contacts in Australia we may be able to arrange a Business Visa for her.  I need to look into this much more but if it’s possible, and if she can get some time off work, we’ll take that option.

If we can get the Visa there’s still the issue over how much time she can get off work but we’ll address that if we get to that point.

In the immediate future she wants to speak with my family and while I’d like to speak with hers too it’s not possible at the moment because I don’t speak enough Russian.  I’ll look for Russian language courses close to home or find a tutor because no matter the outcome with Ms C I know I’ll be returning to Ukraine and I’d like to be more capable “on the ground” next time I visit.

This weekend I’ll send her a package which will include CD’s of the music we listened to during my visit, the photos we took together, a framed picture of us and a few other small items.

Someone said to me recently that the search is the easy part of this pursuit and the future will hold many challenges.  I believe that, and believe it’s not only the time apart but also learning and finally living together that will hold surprises.

I’m not certain of marriage, children and picket fence with Ms D because we haven’t yet fully explored that mysterious matter of real compatibility yet… but there is attraction there so that’s a decent start.

I am certain I that have met an exceptional woman though.

Gents (and ladies of RWD of course)… thanks for humouring me during my trip report and thanks for so many positive comments and PMs.

I hope I’ve conveyed the times and events of my journey in a way that will help future newbies and I would implore them all to spend time here and listen to the wise heads amongst us.

Not everything you’ll read will be pleasant, but everything is valuable.

Again I’ll resist thanking people personally in case I miss someone but I would like to express my thanks to all of the regular posters and the people who have offered their help, wisdom and advice along the way. 

You have had a tremendous impact on my decisions and planning and have been a significant part of what might be the most significant event of my life. While “thanks” doesn’t seem enough, I hope you understand the depth of my appreciation.

So… that’s my TR for my first trip to Ukraine. It’s a journey I’ll never forget or regret, and an adventure I could never have imagined!

[Pike]

Kuna, very nice write up.

I recommend that you not cut the ties with Mrs. C, or even tell her about Mrs. D.

The reason being that it is still much too early for you to commit totally to Mrs. D and Mrs. D may not be really commited to you.  If you read these boards for several years, you find that these relationships often fall apart even where things have gone well as in your case.

Now I am not suggesting that you write to both ladies in the same tone, i.e. talking with both of them equally about future meetings, discuss weddings, etc.  But I do recommend that you keep up a friendly correspondence with Mrs. C.

And remember, while you may shirk from this thinking that you don't want to lead her on; you really aren't if you stay away from the commitment type of words.  Plus, both Mrs. C and Mrs. D can very well be corresponding with and meeting with other men; both locals and western men.

Keep your options open, right up to the time you propose and slip the engagement ring on the finger.

[jb]

I recommend that you not cut the ties with Mrs. C, or even tell her about Mrs. D.

I kinda have a problem with this advice.  If Kuna has decided he has no more romantic interest in Ms. C, (not Mrs. C, these are unmarried ladies ya know) it would be deceitful and dishonest to continue to lead her on.

Now I am not suggesting that you write to both ladies in the same tone, i.e. talking with both of them equally about future meetings, discuss weddings, etc.  But I do recommend that you keep up a friendly correspondence with Mrs. C.

Pike, are you a lawyer?  This the crap lawyers do,,, play with word games to suit their own purposes.  Very deceitful and ultimately very hurtful to the girl who gets left behind.  The very act of continuing to write, regardless of the letter's content, will without doubt, build expectations in Ms. C's mind.

An honest man will always step up to the plate and accept the responsibility for his actions, not hedge his bets with duplicitous and misleading behavior.  Frankly, I doubt Kuna would have done such anyway, he does not come off as a liar and a cheat from what I've read from him so far.

A man can only have one woman, he needs to make up his mind which to pursue, and cut the others free.  If he learns later he's made a mistake he can always crawl back and try to renew relations with the old flame, (not recommended), or start all over again with totally new women.

This, IMHO, falls under the heading of bad advice.

[Mir]

JB

Although I do agree with the principle behind your post I think you are judging Pike rather harshly.
He has said that Kuna maintains a friendly relation with Ms.D and should not lead her on.
During such friendly terms she is free to pursue anyother relations.At the same time he does not volunteer the info that he is involved with another girl but if asked directly he tells the truth (and most sensible women won't ask as they know the answer) when he is sure that Ms C is the one and tells her so they he can tell this to Ms D and still offer to be her friend. Afterall many people stay friends after a divorce and this is just courtship.

[jb]

Mir,

You  have not understood my premise at all, I suggest you re-read the last couple of posts and get a grasp of the intent stated herein.

Ms. D is the object of his affliction, not Ms. C,,, let's get it right, fer Gawd's sake.

[jb]

BTW, I do not judge Pike one way or the other, I merely point out what I consider to be bad advice here.  The potential to hurt a good women is high in this case.  I wouldn't handle it in the manner he suggested.