Kuna's Ukraine Trip Report

[Mir]

OK I am sorry I got the alphabets mixed but the content was understandable I think

[jb]

I think you also mixed up the intent.

[Gator]

Kuna, 

Welcome home.

I also met multiple RW/UW with whom I would enjoy seeing again and again, with abundant thoughts of a long relationship.  It is very difficult to keep the flames burning from a long distance, so I think you should decide on one and slowly let the flame die with the other.  I. e., give one 95% of your attention, and the other 5%.  Do not tell the 5% that you are in love with another, but do say that although she is a wonderful woman, you doubt that you will be returning to Ukraine in the forseeable future. 

And it sounds as if  Ms. D is the one.   You liked her from the first moment you saw her. 

The two of you have more than an intellectual connection - it seems like mind, body and spirit.  Congratulations.

Now comes the difficult (and fun) part - spending enough time together to decide about marriage.  If she were an Ozzie lassie, you would not be moving in together at this stage.  Yet, you do virtually that in these long distance relationships. A month together is excellent, a luxury few men have in a bi-national romance.


Ms. D is very honest when she expresses reservations about moving to Oz. All non-desperate FSUW feel the same about leaving their home, especially when Oz is so far away, and the honest, open women will express their doubts.  Yet, I imagine she is filled with joyful thoughts about a life with you, and in the end she will gladly move.

I would be careful about a Business Visa.  The authorities may decide later when you file for a fiancee visa that the Business Visa was spurious.  In America they possibly would deny a fiancee visa if they connect the dots.  Oz has a 9-month fiancee visa, which would require her to lose her job but give her enough time to decide.  A big question arises if either you or she says "no" - how do you get her back on her feet.  Sorry, I am way ahead.

Must go.  The Cossack is awakening.  Another big day ahead in paradise.

[Kuna]

Gents,

Thanks for the comments and thoughts on handling the process in the immediate future with both ladies.

I've thought about this long and hard before and after Pike's post and I've come to the following decision.

It's clear to me that I prefer Ms D for several reasons however I still feel like I need much more time with her before either of us can make an informed decision about a permanent future together. I like the fact that we're both cautious and thoughtful about the "the big decision" because it shows me another element of our compatibility.

While Ms C is a wonderful girl, the fact that I have chosen someone else over her means that my vision of a future with her falls short when compared to my vision of a future with someone else.

I don't think I could or should maintain contact (even in a friendship sense) with Ms C because if things don't work out with my preferred girl, a return to Ms C would be accompanied by doubts about whether or not someone more appropriate is still out there.

If I had of met her without meeting Ms D then I might very well be considering a future with her.  The fact that I've met Ms D... (and to be honest have been so captivated by her) means that my expectations of a future relationship will be at least what I imagine with Ms D, and not less.

So...  I will tell Ms C that I can't see a future at the moment and I will wish her well in her search for a relationship.  I won't tell her about Ms D because I think too much information is sometimes worse than not enough.

If things don't work out with Ms D then I may very well contact Ms C again in the future because we had a great time together.  I admire for for many reasons, but I don't think it's fair to string her along. Even if I offered friendship a woman's romantic soul and their nurturing instincts might make her think she can cultivate a relationship even if I say it won't happen.  I've seen women try to create something out of noting before and in my experience they finally discover they were just wasting their time. I don't want her to waste her time because he wants and deserves a happy family.

One of the HUGE risks and failings of WMVM is that this could happen.  I believe Ms C will feel hurt and I regret that deeply, but some hurt and a lot of reality is better than misinformation and delusion (in my opinion).

I don't want to hurt her... but I should let her seek the relationship she desires.

Thanks again for your comments.

Kuna

[catzenmouse]

Kuna,

 I've very much enjoyed reading about your adventures and your thoughts leading up to and during this trip. I know that it is a difficult decision to make with regards to Ms. C but by doing the right thing here you are following the path of a true gentleman and a stand up guy. You've earned my respect for doing this the right way. For whatever its worth.

Ken

[Kuna]

Now comes the difficult (and fun) part - spending enough time together to decide about marriage.  If she were an Ozzie lassie, you would not be moving in together at this stage.  Yet, you do virtually that in these long distance relationships. A month together is excellent, a luxury few men have in a bi-national romance.

This is the next thing I need to think seriously about... 

When should I return to FSU and should I go there first or try to arrange for Ms D to visit here?

I have plenty of holidays available (10 weeks at the moment) and now I'm wondering how to best use them and STILL balance my career necessities.

What's obvious is that we should be spending more time together but if I wait until July it might mean she won't come to Oz for a "look and feel" until September or October.  If things are going well at that stage I could probably only return in Q1 '08 for marriage or an alternative is to take the Fiance Visa route? I'll admit I'm uncomfortable with the fiance visa though because I think it's only natural for women to want to be married in front of their family and friends as opposed to getting married abroad... but I could be wrong.

There are SO many questions to be asked and much information to absorb.  Any opinions on "reasonable timing" would be much appreciated.

I personally don't want a courtship that drags on for 18 months or 2 years if more time is then needed for visa processing etc.  Maybe it's just me but after being home for 3 days I can't imagine sticking it out for 2 and a half years... 

Ms. D is very honest when she expresses reservations about moving to Oz. All non-desperate FSUW feel the same about leaving their home, especially when Oz is so far away, and the honest, open women will express their doubts.  Yet, I imagine she is filled with joyful thoughts about a life with you, and in the end she will gladly move.

Gator, I see her serious consideration of the process and consequences as further evidence of our compatibility.  I would be very worried if I was "courting" someone who was in a rush to immigrate.

She went through a very tough time when she lived in Germany because she spoke no language at all.  We've talked about the process of immigration, settling in and cultural and environmental changes and I'm confident she has ample experience to understand the potential difficulties.  I think this is why she wants to talk with my family because she sees them as a potential support network if she does come here.

... again, I was impressed with this line of thought!

I would be careful about a Business Visa.  The authorities may decide later when you file for a fiancee visa that the Business Visa was spurious.  In America they possibly would deny a fiancee visa if they connect the dots.  Oz has a 9-month fiancee visa, which would require her to lose her job but give her enough time to decide.  A big question arises if either you or she says "no" - how do you get her back on her feet.  Sorry, I am way ahead.

Hmmm... the visa issue is a problem.  I'd like her to visit Oz before we make a decision on marriage but we all know a visa may be difficult.

Does anyone have any ideas?  Tourist visa would be an expensive way to do it...  Maybe a student Visa where she has time to improve her English while she's here???  I'm not sure about this because I have ZERO experience in this area.

We could use the Fiance Visa... but as I mentioned earlier I really think a girl would want to, and deserves to be married in front of her family and friends. We're lucky in Oz to have 9 months for a fiance visa but I still don't see it as ideal.

Again... thoughts, ideas and opinions would be much appreciated.

Kuna

Oh, I don't think you're "way ahead".  I prefer to plan ahead and understand the potential paths I may take because I'm not the type to start something blindly and improvise...  Talking about it is good... the decisions can come after I fully understand a situation.

[Kuna]

Kuna,

 I've very much enjoyed reading about your adventures and your thoughts leading up to and during this trip. I know that it is a difficult decision to make with regards to Ms. C but by doing the right thing here you are following the path of a true gentleman and a stand up guy. You've earned my respect for doing this the right way. For whatever its worth.

Ken

Thanks Ken,

Your comments and opinions are appreciated.  I saw soon after finding RWD that the advice and opinions of the members were highly valuable.  I think it's easy to do the wrong thing but proper to do the right thing.

Hopefully I'll move through this process making good decisions for both me and the girls I meet.

Kuna

[Bruno]

Does anyone have any ideas?  Tourist visa would be an expensive way to do it...

Why ?

Looking at http://www.russia.embassy.gov.au/mscw/VisitorVisa.html , the procedure seem simple and fast... the only problem is that for Ukraine, all is handle with the Moscow Embassy...

70$ fee for the visa and some paperwork on your side :

If you are being invited by someone in Australia, a letter of invitation from that person stating what support is being provided (e.g. purchase of air tickets, accommodation, financial support). If financial support is being provided, evidence of the inviter’s ability to cover your costs should also be provided. The invitation should be accompanied by certified evidence of your inviter’s residence or citizenship status in Australia;

About her following, English class in Australia, it can change the visa procedure... if she stay more of 4 week in a class room, a medical examem and xray is needed for issue the tourist visa... and it will add 2 to 5 week for the process of the visa...
http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/1163i.pdf

In any case, you can always ask info to I/O ... if i good remember, his girlfriend have visit him in Australia...

[jb]

I think it's easy to do the wrong thing but proper to do the right thing.

Good for you, Kuna.

[IAmZon]

Sometimes, very rarely, a thing achieves its aim.  A movie is so fantastic that you just want to soak it in as the curtain draws to a close.  A fine dinner is so satisfying that you would not change a single dish - just perfect the way it was.

That is how Kuna's experience reads to me.  Not just this thread, but all of them together.  What a clear picture of international dating this collection paints!  In Kuna's case, preparation was careful studied; the man already KNEW himself and whatt he sought; a plan was formulated; and an aim was reached (not completely, of course, but as much as can be expected at this stage).

It makes me wonder about the ad hominem factor?  How much of the SCAM stuff, or other shortcomings, and other sorts of failings, are caused by the person?

As much as the success is caused by the the person, I propose.

Very, very well done, Kuna.  You have done more than share your experiences.  You have contributed to the correct orientation of things.  You have set a honorable and clear minded bar by which others can measure their own thoughts and actions

[Pike]

I kinda have a problem with this advice.  If Kuna has decided he has no more romantic interest in Ms. C. it would be deceitful and dishonest to continue to lead her on.

A man can only have one woman, he needs to make up his mind which to pursue, and cut the others free. 

- - - - - - -

I looked at my original post again, and stand by my advice, which was given before Kuna gave his additional info.  Nowhere in my original post did I suggest leading anyone on.

And yes, man can have only one woman, but at the time of my post Kuna had not told us that he had made up his mind.

And overlooked and uncommented upon by others, was my statement that both Ms. D and Ms. C can very well be corresponding with and meeting with other men, both locals and others.  Kuna has not proposed to anyone and no one has accepted his proposal of marriage.

[Nat]

Kuna, welcome back home! I have to say it’s a little bit sad to know that you left Ukraine already, because I’ve kinda got used to reading your trip report almost every day It was very interesting First of all, it’s interesting to follow your feelings and thoughts about our country. Here I should admit that you noticed a lot of true facts about our country and our people, that even I hadn’t noticed until reading your posts Second, all the events in your trip made a breathtaking plot I felt like I’m reading not just a trip report, but a book!
Btw, don’t forget, that you were going to open several separate treads to discuss some moments of your trip!

[jb]

Actually, Pike, you did...

you said:

I recommend that you not cut the ties with Mrs. C, or even tell her about Mrs. D.

The reason being that it is still much too early for you to commit totally to Mrs. D and Mrs. D may not be really commited to you.  If you read these boards for several years, you find that these relationships often fall apart even where things have gone well as in your case.

Now I am not suggesting that you write to both ladies in the same tone, i.e. talking with both of them equally about future meetings, discuss weddings, etc.  But I do recommend that you keep up a friendly correspondence with Mrs. C.

You were very clearly advocating that Kuna continue a false hope relationship with Ms. C while concentrating his efforts on Ms. D,,, this is called "coppering one's bets", or laying off money with the odds maker.  This is not the honorable thing to suggest or recommend.  You should be ashamed.

[Kuna]

Kuna, welcome back home! I have to say it’s a little bit sad to know that you left Ukraine already, because I’ve kinda got used to reading your trip report almost every day It was very interesting First of all, it’s interesting to follow your feelings and thoughts about our country. Here I should admit that you noticed a lot of true facts about our country and our people, that even I hadn’t noticed until reading your posts Second, all the events in your trip made a breathtaking plot I felt like I’m reading not just a trip report, but a book!
Btw, don’t forget, that you were going to open several separate treads to discuss some moments of your trip!

Nat,

Thank you for your kind comments and trust me, I am sad to not still be in Ukraine too!   

Yesterday I was really thinking hard about my return trip and when i could come back to Ukraine.  My original intention was to come in July but I don't want to wait that long.  I love where I live, but I was truly inspired by the things I got to do and the people I got to meet while in Ukraine. It was an adventure of a lifetime.

I even checked flights on-line and started to consider an early return, maybe even in March or April.  I called Ms D this morning (evening your time) and we spoke about the possibility of her visiting me and we've decided to try to get her a tourist visa so she can come to Australia for 1 month in April.  After that I will spend 1 month with her in May/June.  If everything goes well then we will consider the next steps after that.

It's important to both of us that we have a lot of "normal lifestyle time" together... Not holidays but living as a couple.  If we feel compatible in that situation then we will be more comfortable with the big decision.

I'm hoping I/O can give me some tips and pointers on the visa application because his fiance got to visit him in Australia too. his advice will be very valuable I think.

Over this weekend I will write some separate threads about my trip.  I think there are still interesting things to discuss and I'm happy to share if you will enjoy.

Nat, I'd be interested to know what types of things you think I understood about Ukraine and Ukrainians that you hadn't considered before reading my trip report.  It might be an interesting topic for discussion because I saw a stark difference between reality and the agency hype we all read before coming to Ukraine.

Kuna

[timothe]

Sometimes, very rarely, a thing achieves its aim.  A movie is so fantastic that you just want to soak it in as the curtain draws to a close.  A fine dinner is so satisfying that you would not change a single dish - just perfect the way it was.

That is how Kuna's experience reads to me.  Not just this thread, but all of them together.  What a clear picture of international dating this collection paints!  In Kuna's case, preparation was careful studied; the man already KNEW himself and whatt he sought; a plan was formulated; and an aim was reached (not completely, of course, but as much as can be expected at this stage).

It makes me wonder about the ad hominem factor?  How much of the SCAM stuff, or other shortcomings, and other sorts of failings, are caused by the person?

As much as the success is caused by the the person, I propose.

Very, very well done, Kuna.  You have done more than share your experiences.  You have contributed to the correct orientation of things.  You have set a honorable and clear minded bar by which others can measure their own thoughts and actions

I agree with both the summary and the conclusion drawn from the summary by this poster.   

[downunder]

Hi Kuna,

Great trip report. I think I would also recommend that you try for a tourist visa. A tourist visa does require some work, but if you both do it correctly you will be in with a good chance to get one.

Just my thoughts, but I have to ask, why only a visa for just one month ? I really don't have to tell you it's a long way to come and Oz is a big country. The now wife came here on a tourist visa that was valid for three months before we applied for the prospective spouse visa. She also spent the first week just finding her feet here as the jet lag side of things kicked in. I also asked my better half what she thought about one month here only and she thought six weeks would be a minimum. If Ms D has a three month visa you at least have some flexability to decide if she wants to stay a bit longer.

If you are looking for some " normal lifestyle time " perhaps a bit longer in Oz might help achieve some of that.

I know that after your trip you are already busting a boiler to get back to Ukraine as soon as you can. I know that, as I was too !! As someone who has already been there and done that so to speak, might I caution that Ms D isn't going to come here leaving all her family and friends if she is has any doubts later down the track so to take a little more time now with things may reap the rewards later.

So as you say go for the tourist visa which I think is a really good idea and see what works out from there. I think you both will have a pretty good idea after she has spent some time here on where you will both be going after that.

The end of my ramblings, Cheers,

Downunder

[Bruno]

If Ms D has a three month visa you at least have some flexability to decide if she wants to stay a bit longer.

I think that Kuna have explain before that duration/timing of his girlfriend trip is related to her work... several FSU girl are not able to have 3 month holiday... and quit her job before any  serious engagement is not a good option...

All is not so simple in life...

[Kuna]

I think that Kuna have explain before that duration/timing of his girlfriend trip is related to her work... several FSU girl are not able to have 3 month holiday... and quit her job before any  serious engagement is not a good option...

All is not so simple in life...

Yeah, you're right Bruno.

Ms D and I know we need more time together before we can commit to engagement and therefore her giving up her job just to come for an extended holiday would be too great a risk for her.

She has a very good job at home and during our time together I discovered that it was difficult for her to find a position like she has... WITH an employer like she has.

We're hoping for her to have a month here... I'll go there for a month... and then maybe we'll have the confidence for her to come here for a longer stint. At that stage she may have to leave her job but she'd need a high degree of confidence to do that!

Gator raised an interesting thought earlier about helping her re-establish herself if it doesn't work out (if she gives up her job) and I've been thinking about this. She said that she saved USD$1000 before she left Germany and that kept her going for 6 months until she found her ideal job.  If our "dating" puts her job at risk I think it'd be only fair to give her at least that level of security if our relationship doesn't work out.

I know we'll both make sacrifices during the dating processes but I'm concious of us both not making too big a sacrifice.

Kuna

[wiz]

I kinda have a problem with this advice.  If Kuna has decided he has no more romantic interest in Ms. C, (not Mrs. C, these are unmarried ladies ya know) it would be deceitful and dishonest to continue to lead her on.

JB spot on and that was the reason I stopped with Olga as soon as I met Sofia. It is dishonest to continue giving them false hopes.

Pike, are you a lawyer?  This the crap lawyers do,,, play with word games to suit their own purposes.  Very deceitful and ultimately very hurtful to the girl who gets left behind.  The very act of continuing to write, regardless of the letter's content, will without doubt, build expectations in Ms. C's mind.

An honest man will always step up to the plate and accept the responsibility for his actions, not hedge his bets with duplicitous and misleading behavior.  Frankly, I doubt Kuna would have done such anyway, he does not come off as a liar and a cheat from what I've read from him so far.

A man can only have one woman, he needs to make up his mind which to pursue, and cut the others free.  If he learns later he's made a mistake he can always crawl back and try to renew relations with the old flame, (not recommended), or start all over again with totally new women.

This, IMHO, falls under the heading of bad advice.

Absolutely right!

[ScottinCrimea]

You have considered the fiance visa but feel it is important for a woman to be married in front of her family and friends so it sounds like you want a marriage in Ukraine.  I don't know the visa regulations in Australia so I was wondering if it says anywhere that the marriage has to take place there under a fiance visa.  Couldn't you live together in Australia for up to nine months, then return to Ukraine for the wedding?  If you provided proper documentation of the wedding within the 9 month period would this be accepted by the Australian government?  Another option might be to have two weddings, one in Ukraine and a second civil one in Australia.  Just some ideas I'm tossing out.

[catzenmouse]

Another option might be to have two weddings, one in Ukraine and a second civil one in Australia.  Just some ideas I'm tossing out.

That is a very good idea! Not sure if Ukraine has a Zags type of office that you need to go through to make the marriage official but a civil wedding in Australia and a church wedding in Ukraine would cover any legal issues with Australia.

Ken

Don't forget the custom to invite all your RWD buddies to the wedding! And remember, the groom is supposed to pay for all flights and accomodations too...

[Jack]

It's a very good idea and one that many men do.

Here in the states many guys will have a simple marriage, others will have a large wedding, but basically to satisfy the government requirements of getting married within the first 90 days. And many of these men will then have the large traditional wedding in his wife's hometown the next trip back home. 

With many of these women this is an event they have dreamed about all their lives. Family and lifetime friends from all over will attend. Weddings are big deals in the FSU. And the after wedding party, ohh my!  Many times this carries over to the next day ending at 1, 2, 3, am the next morning. 

And big weddings overseas are really affordable.