Using a guide in Ukraine? Be careful!

[Kuna]

Introduction

In my trip report “Kuna’s Ukraine Trip Report” I made some comments on the use and value of using a guide and several people have asked that I expand on this.

I don’t want to personalize my criticism of the services I was provided but I believe it’s critical that future newbies be given the benefit of insight about the things that can go wrong and the things I would do differently next time.

Before my trip a number of RWD members recommended Pavel as a trustworthy guide to use while I was in Ukraine and based on those recommendations I contacted him.

I was impressed with Pavel’s enthusiasm and his quick responses to emails and my confidence about “working with him” on my trip was high.

My first concern was when a fee of USD$45 was added in his final that was a fee for his “his services”.  In phone discussions and even upon arrival Pavel had told me that “he would be my guide dog while I was in Ukraine” because many people would try to rip me off. He would get me the best prices and make sure that everything ran smoothly.

I ignored the added fee and pout it down to being “only $45” and was happy to have someone “on my side” while I was on this adventure.

Another pre-arrival issue I had was with the Visa Invitation Pavel made for me as I was charged USD$30 for a letter that the Embassy in Australia would not accept.  I’d told Pavel this but he said he didn’t understand because he’d used a similar letter for someone else previously.  To me it didn’t matter if he’d done this previously, it was rejected for me.

[Kuna]

Day of Arrival

On arrival it took a little while to find Pavel in the airport but it was no big deal. I was shocked at how quickly I got through passport control and I suspect he didn’t expect me to get through so quickly either.

In the car on the way to the apartment he gave me some advice and again reinforced the dangers of being scammed.  Warned me about the girls and a couple of common scams on the streets and again told me that he “could be trusted because he was my guide dog”.

Something else that I thought was pretty cool was his offer to introduce me to his friend who was looking for a good man.  I told him my schedule was going to be busy but I’d love to meet her, if only for a coffee and a chat.

When we arrived at the apartment he’d arranged for me I was very happy with it and after dropping my luggage off we went for a walk down towards Independence Square.
 
I think my head must have been spinning from just landing and trying to absorb all of the action down on Kreshatic but we were striding along and I really had no idea where we were going or what we were doing.  After a while I stopped and asked him where we were going and why, and when I didn’t get a straight answer I told him I needed to go to the loo to which he responded, “Yes, that’s why we’re going this way… it’s not far now”.

On the way back towards the apartment we stopped in a phone shop so I could get a SIM Card for my phone but I unfortunately learned that my Oz phone was locked for competing SIMs.

We set off again and when I repeated my earlier question of where we were going I was told “back to the apartment” but I wasn’t ready to go back... I wanted a look around and some time to absorb the new sights around me so I just told him that I would make my own way back to the apartment later and I would talk to him later.

A tip for guides that might be reading this is that it’s important to ask you client what they want to do… or tell them what you’re doing… not to just take off on what seems like a pointless walk between several points without being able to explain what the goal is.

[Kuna]

The Train Station Rip Off

This was a rip off… I’m sorry, there’s no other way to explain it!

When Pavel and I were finalizing payments and arrangements for the trip in the apartment I confirmed I needed a CAR and DRIVER to pick my up in the morning so I could go and pick Ms D up at the train station.  I asked him how much it would cost and he told me 25UAH.

The car was supposed to arrive at 11:15 to give me plenty of time to get to the train station for her noon arrival.

After we parted down on Kreshatic I did some mental calculation and realized 25UAH seemed very cheap to pick me up, take me to the train station, wait and bring us back so he must have meant 25UAH each way (or a total of about USD$10).

I was SHOCKED the next morning when I got out of the shower at 10:30am and the door buzzer screeched. Surely the driver wasn’t here already!

I threw some clothes on (while still wet) and answered the door to see Pavel standing there.  In his usual highly motivated and animated way he came into to the apartment and said “Come on buddy, we have to get moving.”

I had no idea what was happening but had put my trust totally in Pavel and hurried to get ready.  Once ready we went down stairs and instead of getting into the car we walked at his “extreme speed” down the hill to Independence Square when I realized I’d forgotten to shave.  I told Pavel that I needed to go back to the apartment to shave but he told me we had to keep moving but we’d come back to the apartment later.

I know now that I should have been more assertive and not get caught up in his natural enthusiasm and it’s a lesson any newbie should keep in mind when using a guide in a foreign city.

Once we were walking down Kreshatic I simple HAD to know where we were going so I asked and got an indirect answer which was something like, “Buddy, we have to keep moving… we’re going down here.”

Where “down here was, I don’t know” but eventually I said to him we had to stop, I needed a loo, and I wanted to know where we were going.

He solved one of those things for me by suggesting we go across the road to Macdonald’s and when I came out of the bathroom he was standing at the counter waiting to order some food.

I hadn’t eaten breakfast (nothing in the apartment yet) so eating sounded like a better idea than walking and I remember thinking “If I can get him to sit down I might find out what we’re doing.”

Eating was excruciatingly slow.  I was starting to get anxious because I’d finished eating and he was still savouring his food.  Instead of telling him to get a move on I told him that “we probably have to get going soon so I would go and wait for him outside”.

Well, I did that and waited… and waited… and waited… and after 10 minutes I decided I’d waited long enough so I returned inside to see him eating one fry at a time and enjoying them like someone might enjoy the most luxurious morsel of food available.

It was now 11:30 and I was concerned that we were going to be late for the train station.

I returned inside and told him we had to get going and still had to wait while he finished off his fries and packed up his stuff.  As we walked through the doors and back out into the cold I asked him if he’d called the driver yet and grew more anxious when he said “no, but I’ll call him later.”

At this point I’d had enough of waiting so I said, “No, call him now,” and after he called we crossed the road again to wait his arrival.

Once in the car I was feeling more comfortable but the thought struck me that I’d asked for a car and driver and Pavel had come along but didn’t question it at that stage because I imagined he might be coming for the ride as a service (remember the $45 professional service fee) or maybe he had something else to do with the driver later.

Once at the train station we went inside and realised the train wouldn’t be arriving until 12:30 so we waited until we could find the platform it was arriving on, and went upstairs to wait until the arrival time grew closer. 

The conversation had returned to normal and he was giving me advice about potential pitfalls on my trip, etc.

At about 12:20 I told him I was going downstairs to the platform and asked him to wait upstairs so I could greet her alone but he either didn’t listen or didn’t hear because he came downstairs with me.

AGAIN I wasn’t assertive enough but I was at least relieved when he made himself scarce in our first few moments together so we could say our hellos and let the first impressions sink in.

Pavel came and took her bag from me and we went out to the car for the short ride back to the apartment.

When we pulled up at the apartment I asked him how much to give the driver (because I was expecting it to be a little extra considering the extra 30 minutes waiting time) but was SHOCKED when he said 220UAH.

TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY?

OK, 220UAH might be close to a fair price for two and a half hours service BUT our agreement was 50UAH for the driver to pick me up at 11:15am for a return trip to the train station.

I wasn’t happy and I knew I’d been had!

I can’t help but think there was no purpose for the fast walking along Kreshatic and knew that arriving early was all about getting some extra billable time.

When we got upstairs Ms D asked me what the 220UAH was for and I told her, which caused her to pull a face which I later learned meant, “I hate it when people try to rip others off”.

[Kuna]

My trip to Cherkassy

Before my trip I was given a quote for a private car to Cherkassy of $80.

Something I’ll give Pavel was that he was very attentive during my trip and phoned frequently to see how my trip was going and to check if I needed any other services like sightseeing, or someone to come out at night with me to make sure I was safe.

Two days before I was due to leave for Cherkassy he called and we talked about the trip and he told me he would charge me $140 for the trip.  I reminded him about the $80 quote but he denied we’d had the discussion and said it was a very long way and hard to get a driver to do a long trip like that.

I wasn’t happy so I decided to consider other options like the Bus or Train and then realized I would need help buying the tickets. I asked him to come to the apartment the day before the trip so we could discuss the best options and he would help me purchase the tickets.

When he arrived at the apartment we started to talk about how dangerous it was, and what his fees would be to come with me on that day to buy tickets and a quick calculation brought the total price close to the $140 revised quote for the private car.

I specifically said I didn’t need him to come along on that day and he said that the $140 didn’t include any money for him… it was “just the payment for the driver.”

“My friend, I don’t add charges to organize things for you… I just charge you for my guide services when you need them.

I thought about it for a moment and even though I was unhappy with the price change I decided that the private car would be the best option.

I told him I would take the car and asked him if it was best to give the driver the money at the start or the end of the trip.

I saw immediate anxiety in his eyes and he quickly told me I would have to give him the money now because he needs to pay the driver, to which I thought “not much” of it and handed over the $140.

He then said words that made me realize I’d been touched:

“It’s nice doing business with you my friend”.

Ya know… no matter what the language barrier is or what cultural differences might exist sometimes words say more than a person intends.

He then started suggesting that I get the car to return on the Monday for the return trip because my lady wouldn’t be impressed with taking the bus back to Kiev, but I told him I wasn’t here to impress her, I was here to get to know her.

He didn’t push the point but there was no way I was handing over another $140.

The driver turned up and seemed a nice enough guy (even though the drive was “exciting” because of his driving style), but the whole way there I wished he could speak English so I could ask him how much he was getting paid for the trip.  I’ll guarantee you it wasn’t $140.

The problem I have with this transaction was that I was quoted $80 and the price increased to $140 a few days prior to the trip.

If the original $80 was inaccurate I still blame him for the error. During my trip I felt a little helpless at times when dealing with him because there was a certain amount of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) that was being served up. In hindsight I think some of the stories were motivated to have me use his services more than I was doing.

[Kuna]

The Taxi Transfer to the Airport for the Dnepropetrovsk Trip

The day before I was to fly out to Dnepropetrovsk I decided to stop and barter with some taxi drivers to see how much I could get a transfer to the airport for.  Pavel had offered to take me to the airport but after my previous experiences I at least wanted to be armed with some prices to make sure I wasn’t going to engage him again under inflated prices.

The quotes I got were 120 and 150UAH so I knew the approximate cost that I would be “up for”.

That night Pavel called to see if I wanted the transfer and we discussed his pricing for this trip.  I asked him how much a taxi would cost and he said the best he could negotiate for me was 200UAH but if I tried to get a taxi myself they would charge me much more.

I asked him how much he would charge me for a PRIVATE CAR and DRIVER and he said he was sure he could negotiate it for 200 “just for me”… “You’re my friend and I will look after you”.

Well,  I’m not sure about anyone else but I know my friends at home don’t try to rip me off.

I told him that we needed to talk about some things because the prices he was giving me were inconsistent with what I had been hearing on the street and I felt like he was not giving me the service I paid for.

Of course he denied it but we didn’t get too far into the conversation when he asked what prices I had negotiated for the taxi and when I told him 120-150 he said he could do it for 150 but only because we were friends.

I was torn in two… I wanted to tell him to go to hell but I knew I needed him to fulfill on his final commitment which was the arranging my apartment for my last 3 days in town.

I told him I wasn’t happy and we needed to talk about the pricing but would agree to take his option but only at the 150UAH.

He said he would come along in the morning because he needed to pick up money for the apartment etc and a 7:30 departure should be fine to get me to the airport for my 9:10am flight.

Later that night he called me and said because the weather had turned bad we should leave at 7am so I told him it was OK but not to arrive before 7am.

My problem with this interaction?  It was clearly a rip off.  I don’t know why and I don’t know if I just had sucker written on my forehead but this was the clearest example of a rip off that I experienced in my interactions with this guy!

It’s not a lot of money but to me it was the principle.  Being charged the $45 service fee and being told it was his job to get me the best prices just didn’t correlate with the service that I was getting.


The Morning of my Departure for Dnepropetrovsk
I was ironing my short a 6:30am when the door buzzer rang.  Only 30 minutes prior to our agreed time but hell… it was STILL 30 minutes early!

I went to the door bare-chested and upon opening I said these exact words, “You’re early, come back later” and closed the door.

I didn’t want to be rude but I wasn’t being rushed this time!

At 6:55am I went down stairs to see him waiting in the lobby and he gave me the excuse of having to arrive early to explain the alternate options for storing my luggage while I was in Dnepr.

He was going to hold my luggage overnight until we met up to collect the apartment keys the next day but he told me he’d come up with a better option of storing them in the security room for a fee of 10UAH.  I didn’t care and this was a reasonable price but it did not take an additional 30 minutes to organize.

We headed off to the airport and again I was surprised he was coming so I told him I hoped he didn’t expect me to pay for the car AND his services because all I needed was the car for the trip to the airport.

Again he told me that he “was just coming along my friend to make sure you get there safely”.

In the car I raised the topic of the prices again and told him how disappointed I was with the changing and inflated fees for services he’d provided.

I told him it wasn’t the amounts of money I was unhappy about but rather it was the principle of being promised to get the best prices and later I found out that almost everything he was doing for me was more expensive that I could find myself.

He was defensive to the point of being indignant at best, and aggressive at times.

Some extraordinary things were being said in the cab and while I was thinking about my need for the apartment for the last 3 days I continually tried to calm it down and bring it back to a logical discussion about broken promises.

He’d obviously had enough because he told me I had to give him the money as agreed but I told him that I wanted to finish the discussion first, and then he made a comment that could have been taken two ways.

It might have been the language barrier or it might have been a threat but for a moment I thought he was going to stop the car and tell me to get out.

I wasn’t getting out but I did relent and give him the money for the ride to the airport but I wouldn’t hand over the money for the total stay in the apartment for the remainder of my stay.  I just didn’t trust him enough.

A few minutes later he said something to the driver and after the driver stopped he got out of the car without a word and walked towards what I think was a bus stop.

This hadn’t gone well and I wasn’t happy with the total deterioration in our relationship but I really didn’t understand what else I was supposed to do other than continue to pay inflated prices.

[Kuna]

Picking up the Keys on Our Return to Kiev

Ms D and I were on the train and while she was speaking with our “new friend” I decided to call Pavel now that I had phone coverage again.

After answering he immediately told me that he had a cold and “we had a very big problem”.  He’d explained that the owner of the apartment had let it to someone else so he was sorry that he couldn’t help me.

I was stunned… though I really shouldn’t have been surprised. I’m glad Ms D couldn’t hear me because I told him in no uncertain terms that I didn’t care what sort of problem “we had” but I knew “he had” a very big problem. 

“I booked the apartment through you and I don’t care if it has been let to someone else,  I’m calling you back in 10 minutes to find out what alternate arrangements you’ve made.

He started to tell me again that he was sick and couldn’t help me but I cut him off and told him I didn’t care if he had pneumonia, I was calling back in 10 minutes and he would have an apartment for me.

When I hung up my mind was racing while trying to think of alternate accommodation options if needed them and when I called back I was relived to hear that it was “very difficult but I have found another apartment just for you because I know you were in a tough spot”.

I didn’t know if I was supposed to kiss his a$$ but I was sure that he didn’t want to help and wouldn’t have done anything to help if I didn’t force the situation.

Again he said he couldn’t come to meet me as agreed and eventually I got a sketchy description of how to pick up the keys and without dragging this story out to a ridiculous length I’m happy to say that after some mucking around, and some confused conversations, once we arrived at the apartment we finally made it into the new apartment.

My problem here…  I don’t really have a problem.  Our relationship had broken down and he tried to withdrawn his promised services but finally he corrected his initial behaviour.

[Kuna]

My Summary

I want to make something really clear!  I don’t want to make it sound as if Pavel is a TOTALLY bad guy or that no one else should ever use his service.

I’m posting this so others can understand what CAN happen while you’re away and what I would do differently next time.

If I were to use a guide again I would not be nice… I would be precise.

Tips:

• When someone keeps referring to you as “My Friend” they are not the same as a friend at home.  Friends that charge you fees to help you are vendors, not friends.
• Try to get an idea of the types of costs available on the street so you have a reference point when prices are quoted by a guide. If they are not cheaper than the street price you can either accept the higher price (and convince yourself its better service), or reject the offer of “help” and use the lower prices available on the street.
• If a guide arrives early, I would send them away until the agreed time.  When they arrive early it just means the clock starts ticking early and you will be charged extra.
  
• If I used a guide to book a private car and the guide arrived with the car I would send him away.  Don’t assume he’s coming for a ride, understand he’s charging you.
• Confirm all prices in writing and accept nothing said in person or on the phone.  If you are given quotes verbally email the guide and confirm the pricing and PRINT all email correspondence so if you have a dispute you have something to refer to on the stop without needing Internet access.
• Before you do anything with a guide confirm what you are doing and why!  Don’t accept partial answers.  You NEED to manage your vendors better than I did.

In closing, as I said earlier I don’t have a HUGE problem with the amounts that I was overcharged but I am upset at the BS I was fed about the dangers on the street and the better prices I would get when in fact all I ended up being was a captive audience until I got away.

I know many others in here have had good experiences with Pavel and I really don’t understand why I had these problems.  Maybe as I said earlier I looked like a sucker… maybe I should have rode him harder early on.  To be honest he was such a “nice guy” it was hard to pull him into line because I felt like I would have hurt his feelings.

I would never use Pavel again, and I’d recommend anyone needed a guide service to at least look at my tips above and proceed with caution… or find another guide who you’re comfortable with.

I believe Pavel would provide a good service if he hadn’t sprouted the “save you money” lines because he would enthusiastically be at your service for all of your needs, but in no way should you expect him to save you money.

I know this post may cause conflict but I really felt like other newbies need the benefit of an alternate view.  Pavel is not the only one a newbie should be careful with and I imagine others may use him in future with more success than I did.

From my perspective, I see some value he provided in parts of my trip (like the airport pickup and the apartments he arranged) but I know in my gut I was touched on things like transfers and transportation.

To those that recommended Pavel to me I would still say thank you.  Arriving at the airport and getting a taxi would have been confusing and the recommendations on apartments were spot on.

I don’t know if Pavel thought Australians were stupid, or if I am to blame for not being more assertive, but my overall experience wasn’t good.

One member in here (with a very small number of posts) picked up on my dissatisfaction with Pavel and in a PM exchange has warned me against criticizing him in the forum.  There was no way I would be silenced because RWD is a place for us to exchange information and help each other as we undertake these trips. I am still mindful of the interaction that took place and waited for almost a week before posting my thoughts.  I wanted to make sure that I wasn’t being unfair but I honestly believe this is a fair account of what happened.

To those with better experiences I congratulate you… To those who might use a guide in future ACT WITH CAUTION.  Not all is as it seems!

Kuna

[Michelangelo]

• When someone keeps referring to you as “My Friend” they are not the same as a friend at home.  Friends that charge you fees to help you are vendors, not friends.

Thanks for sharing, Kuna.  Your experience is a valuable perspective to be added to the dozens of posts here at RWD that have praised Pavel.

I have to make two apologizes to you, my friend. 

1)  I'm sure I taught Pavel to use that expression, "my friend."  I said it to him constantly.  I am from the southwestern USA, and friendship and feelings come easy here.  I meant it and was sincere.  I am sure he learned this usage of Engish from me 

2)  Kuna, I apologize for recommending Pavel to you. I'm sorry you had a bad experience because of my advice.

Looking back, I'd still make that recommendation to you today.  Two years ago a member here at RWD recommended Pavel to me.  I used him about 8 times.  He saved me from one scammer, using insights I did not have at the time.  I don't have German roots, so I'm not price conscious, so paying 150 grn instead of 130 grn  (four dollars more) was not something that bothered me.  I was just glad to have a clean, safe taxi.

However, since you have had a different experience, readers can take that into consideration and decide for themselves. Yes, your experience has equal value and validity as mine, so thanks again for sharing.

I'll close with story....

I was spending the summer with Vik in Ukraine last summer.  We were in Kiev when I got the horrific message that my mother had experienced a heart attack.  I called Pavel and he rushed me to the airport and helped me get on the flight leaving for New York in just an hour and a half.  He told me he would take care of Vik.  And he did!  :-)

He stayed with her, helped pack her bags, and put her on the train to Dnepr.  And he did not charge a grn.. for anything.

So yes, my experience is that Pavel is a good guy.  And a friend...

[Voyageur]

From Kuna's trip reports I have developed a healthy respect for him and his search. The trip report he posted here was fantastic and should be a great help for anyone thinking about going to the FSU.   

However, people are different everywhere and each individual - although individually they may be honest and great guys - may not get always along in certain situations.

I have to defend Pavel here. I met him by chance in Kiev, at the ever-popular TGIF.  He was talking to a then-regular of RWG - Jay Patches. He was renting an apartment in Kiev from Pavel.

At the TGIF I first noticed that my ATM card was missing. The previous night I used an ATM at a bank and evidently  forgot to take the card after receiving my money. Pavel offered to help me immediately.  He borrowed Jay Patches cell and made a few calls and somehow managed located my card. He set an appointment to retrieve it later that day.  No money had changed hands. Although i was stupid enough to lose my ATM card, I was not stupid enough to believe that this effort would be performed gratis. He refused to accept any money from me, and said we could discuss it if the card was returned.

When I met him later that afternoon, we were to have our appointment with the bank across town. The taxi driver underestimated the time it took to drive in the rush hour traffic. We were late to get to the building and it was on a Friday afternoon. I was to leave for the US on Sunday, so I would be short on cash for the remainder of my stay.

Somehow Pavel worked his way inside this Bank building after hours (no money changed hands, no guns were used even!) and found the woman whom he had spoken to earlier that day, using JayPatches' cell.  No one was answering the main switchboard. We got the card.

When we left, I was amazed and asked him what I owed him. Of course, I paid for the taxi.  But he said "nothing, just write about this in the RWG  "  I thought that he was sort of joking, but I insisted to pay him and I did. I also wrote about it on that site.

A second time, he was leaving me in the Kiev railway station. I had no cell. I paid him for his transport to the train station, as originally agreed.  I was standing there for a while and I saw him return back. He gave me his phone card and told me to call him when I arrived - no matter what time it was. The phone card was bought from his own money, he refused any more money from me for this.  I called him when I arrived.

Pavel is a businessman, I have no doubt about this, but he has also shown me many kindnesses and has certainly gone the extra mile for me, personally in my experience. He does show up early to appointments (if I remember correctly. normally about 15 minutes early).

Although I believe that you had some bad experiences with Pavel, I never had any instances when I felt that I was being ripped off or taken advantage of. I was with Jack's party for his tour around Ukraine in 2004 and could compare Pavel's prices and services with others, and he was always more than fair. We agreed on all prices before the fact (except for the ATM card fiasco) and there was never a problem.

I would suggest that any newbie that is considering a trip to Kiev to read this topic and understand that differences occur in life and to consider that there are two sides to any story. I am sure that others will also post their experiences which will enable the newbie to use his own judgment when making a decision.

[Mir]

Quite a few times during my visit to Ukraine I paid people (just street vendors,shop keepers etc) more then the bill was due to lack of familiarity with the notes.They always returned the excess.

Kuna

Can I ask what did you pay for the apartment per night?
Was it a studio or a one bed apartment?

[BC]

Thank goodness I just handed over my cash travel budget to my then gf (now wife) who was a fantastic guide and took care of all these types of transactions.  The folks she dealt with smiled when the deals were settled so I'm sure she was fair and maybe even a bit generous when the services were good.

Considering the small amounts discussed here and admitted 'fair value' for the services provided, I'm starting to smell 'scrooge'.

Don't let your dates catch on...

[Kuna]

Michelangelo and Voyageur,

Guys,  thanks for the comments.  I know Pavel has done special things for many of his clients in the past and that's why I gave the benefit of doubt in my post (where ever I could).

It's not actually even a money thing because the total "variation" from reality is a little over $100.  What I did have a problem with was the promise of saving money when it actually wasn't a consideration.

I will post my ideas on something at the end of this post of "A Guides Business Model" but my first comment would be that a guide shouldn't promise to save money.. they should promise to make a trip run more smoothly.  The "saving money" thing isn't "on the table" and therefore shouldn't be promised.

Kuna

[Kuna]

Considering the small amounts discussed here and admitted 'fair value' for the services provided, I'm starting to smell 'scrooge'.

Don't let your dates catch on...

hahahaha... hardly a scrooge.  Anyone that knows me knows I'm pretty loose with money but I didn't like "the promise" being so far from "the reality".  I guess I might be hung up on reality.

Before the Cherkassy trip I offered to take Pavel and his wife out one night when Ms C arrived for diner to thank him for his service. 

As I said,  others may happily use Pavel in future BUT they should be aware that a guide provides services that helps on the ground but they do not save money.

The cost differential was small but could have been much bigger had I not kept the brakes on after the trip to the train statiion.

Kuna

[Mir]

Kuna

Can I ask what did you pay for the apartment per night?
Was it a studio or a one bed apartment?

[Stirlitz]

Well as I have read it I can see that this is basically misunderstanding plus wrong expectations. Kuna, you sound as if your whole trip went wrong and Pavel just happened to be your scapegoat. Most of the things you say just don’t add up.

Another pre-arrival issue I had was with the Visa Invitation Pavel made for me as I was charged USD$30 for a letter that the Embassy in Australia would not accept.  I’d told Pavel this but he said he didn’t understand because he’d used a similar letter for someone else previously.  To me it didn’t matter if he’d done this previously, it was rejected for me.

Did Pavel guarantee it would be accepted?

Was it poorly written?

Is anyone out there who can guarantee you anything about consulates and embassies (except for people who work there)?! Why do we often read contradictory stories about a woman being rejected a visa despite having a nice job, an apartment, previous visas and then, all of a sudden, they approve a visa for a jobless blonde named Natasha? Where is the logic?

A tip for guides that might be reading this is that it’s important to ask you client what they want to do… or tell them what you’re doing… not to just take off on what seems like a pointless walk between several points without being able to explain what the goal is.

A tip for guides’ clients: always tell your guide what you want them to do and where you want them to go. If you are the boss, please rule. Guides are not supposed to make decisions for you. If you do not say anything they might be forced to do something but the responsibility is yours.

Before my trip I was given a quote for a private car to Cherkassy of $80.

Can you copy and paste the e-mail from Pavel, including its full headers, where he quotes $80 for this trip? I also ask for full headers because the date is important. If this quote was given more than six months ago, you should be aware that gasoline prices have increased since then. And not only gasoline. Property, electricity, other services, everything. At any rate, a quote given a long time ago is not a solid argument. Besides, I am somehow sure that Pavel did not quote it to you. First of all, I know him and it is not typical of him and if he says he did not quote $80 chances are he didn’t. Second, let’s just see. $80 makes 40 cents a kilometer (it is 200 km between Kiev and Cherkasy, I drove this way). But this rate is not typical for Kiev today. Most taxi drivers charge at least 50 cents, usually 60, sometimes 70, and I am not talking about real rip-off at the airport where they can easily quote you $140 just to get to the downtown of Kiev, I mean normal drivers who would charge you as much as me however hard I bargain. I mean there can be drivers who charge 70 cents and it is still within the limits. There is also drivers who charge much more or much less but rare. 60±10 to sum up. So I am more than sure that he could not quote $80, at least within half a year from now back. Anyway, what you claim is baseless and Pavel denies it; so, given the actual rates, I have more reason to trust him, unless you have other convincing proofs. The only possibility I see is a mistake or misunderstanding but it happens. Anyway, it was corrected, and you were given the right quote before you went to Ukraine, so even then it is OK in my view. Prices change here daily. $80 is just too good to be true and no wonder it was not the right figure.

The driver turned up and seemed a nice enough guy (even though the drive was “exciting” because of his driving style), but the whole way there I wished he could speak English so I could ask him how much he was getting paid for the trip.  I’ll guarantee you it wasn’t $140.

Was it really the problem? Is Pavel or anyone else in the world supposed to help you and make arrrangements for you for free? Please give reasons as to why. I don’t see any right now. If you think that by paying Pavel for other services you made him obliged to you, I do not find it convincing.

If Pavel did add $20 to $120, that is quite OK in my view. At $0.60 a km it is a normal taxi rate, and $20 is not too much money for a service. Actually, I feel sorry for people who make Pavel to hide his quite justifiable fees, if it is really the case. But it has to be proven yet (see below).

What surprises me is how many people want free stuff and are genuinely surprised when rejected either directly or by being charged more for something else.

However, the bottom line is if you accepted Pavel’s services and decided to pay for them, and he delivered what he had promised (in this case it is the cab ride), what are you unhappy about? Nobody forced you to accept it, so what’s the use of whining. You could have gone out in the street, wave your hand and say CHERKASSY. (I bet you would be charged much more than $140 though). But if you decided to use Pavel on your free will, what is the problem now? I just see no justification in lambasting him now. A definition of rip-off is when you have no choice and someone takes advantage of the situation charging you much more than they would in other situation. Pavel is not the only person in the world who could arrange a taxi for you. It was your choice to ask him and accept his conditions. So I am sorry but given the above, to me you sound like a cheapskate who is sorry about missed opportunities to save a few bucks. It does not add you honor. A deal is a deal, and once you accepted it on your free will, no use to cry wolf later. Be the man.

I'd heard som bad things about the bus so I called another guide and got a quote of $200, then a call back from that guide a little later saying he was tired and confused and his quote was $150. 

This is a quote from another thread. It is now clear why you chose Pavel — to save $60. So, why not be happy about that? And if he quoted you much less than another guide, what made you think he added his cut to it?

After answering he immediately told me that he had a cold and “we had a very big problem”.  He’d explained that the owner of the apartment had let it to someone else so he was sorry that he couldn’t help me.

I was stunned… though I really shouldn’t have been surprised. I’m glad Ms D couldn’t hear me because I told him in no uncertain terms that I didn’t care what sort of problem “we had” but I knew “he had” a very big problem. 

“I booked the apartment through you and I don’t care if it has been let to someone else,  I’m calling you back in 10 minutes to find out what alternate arrangements you’ve made.

I am sorry but it is simply stupid. What do you mean by booking? Just saying you would probably take it some time later, so please keep it for me? Sorry but this does not work this way. If you want an apartment booked for you, you simply PAY for the days when you want to have it. Don’t you think that the landlords want to make some income? Why should they keep the apartment for you without any guarantee that you will use it? A guarantee can be your payment. I quite support this attitude because I have too often been through situations when somebody says they will use a service but then disappears. Even if this apartment belonged to Pavel I would not blame him if he had rented it while you were away. But how do you expect him to control the landlord who rightfully wants to make hard cash now?

Why didn’t you simply pay for all the time? If you went to another city for a day or two it would be a perfect option. By the way it would also be helpful to have a secure storage for your things. Pavel arranged for your luggage to stay in Kiev but what would you say if it had been stolen? Right, you would blame him. But why should he have this responsibility?

And when you call ten minutes before arriving to Kiev and want the same apartment, it is just laughable. Do you do the same wherever you travel? As far as I am concerned, people who travel to a strange town book a hotel or apartment there in advance, usually by paying for it. You can skip this part but you may have a lot of trouble when all rooms are taken. What made you think this should be different this time is a mystery.

OK, 220UAH might be close to a fair price for two and a half hours service BUT our agreement was 50UAH for the driver to pick me up at 11:15am for a return trip to the train station.

I wasn’t happy and I knew I’d been had!

Again, I am surprised that a general perception of a Ukrainian guide is someone with lots of free time and nothing to do who just enjoys your company. I am sure that Pavel gave you a link to his web site www.yourukraineguide.com.ua and you must have read it and noted his hourly rate of $15. If you didn’t, I am lost for words. Do your homework!

If I were to use a guide again… I would be precise.

Good idea. But why do you blame Pavel for basically your faults?

My Summary
Tips:
When someone keeps referring to you as “My Friend” they are not the same as a friend at home.  Friends that charge you fees to help you are vendors, not friends.

My tips:

• Don’t expect anyone to do anything for you for free. Be prepared to pay for people’s time and attention. Friends who can help you for free must have known you for ages.
• Don’t hold people responsible for things out of their control (e.g. consulates, other people).
• Make sure you know the fees and conditions of the person who is working for you.
• If you feel something is too expensive, just look elsewhere.
• Don’t be too cheap. If you can afford it, just enjoy it. Don’t spoil a wonderful experience by watching every penny. You may miss more important and beautiful things.
• Book everything you want in advance by paying for it.
• I remind, IN ADVANCE. At least several days. Better weeks.
• I remind, BY PAYING. Best if for everything if you are sure you will need it.
• Be specific about your needs. Don’t expect the other person to read your mind. Don’t ask them where we are going. Tell them where you are going.

Of course, you may skip these tips but you are going to have problems and misunderstandings.

I would never use Pavel again

In his place I would never work for you again either. In fact, I never will in my place too. But I think that after reading this thread reasonable people will make their own decision. Of course, for dollar-savvy people who admire free stuff, Pavel is a bad choice simply because he lives in an expensive city and pays huge bills, and he does not have rich parents to cover him, so he cannot afford to do free stuff.

Thanks for sharing, Kuna.  Your experience is a valuable perspective to be added to the dozens of posts here at RWD that have praised Pavel.

Whatever you do, there will always be somebody unhappy about it or you, so it is expectable. (Bold is mine).

Now, as I foresee future debates. To anybody who is going to claim I am simply supporting Pavel because I am a guide and his is my colleague. Can you point out which of the above does not hold water? What is wrong with my arguments?

I will post my ideas on something at the end of this post of "A Guides Business Model" but my first comment would be that a guide shouldn't promise to save money.. they should promise to make a trip run more smoothly.  The "saving money" thing isn't "on the table" and therefore shouldn't be promised.

I always promise I will try to save my client’s money. And I do my best. I don’t charge low but I am open about my fees and when I am with my client I always think if I can save for him. For example, when I meet people at the airport and they did not order a car, I usually walk away from the crowd of cab drivers and suggest a bus. But I never guarantee more than I can do.

But one thing I know for sure. There are people who will always be unhappy about something, and will always say that everything is too expensive and a rip-off however cheap or expensive it actually is.

[Kuna]

Kuna

Can I ask what did you pay for the apartment per night?
Was it a studio or a one bed apartment?

Mir,

The apartments were very good.  The first one I was in was the better of the two but both were quite acceptable.  I paid $75 per night which I believe is the going rate for both apartments.

Cheers,

Kuna

[jinx13]

 Kuna,

  I wanted to make some comments, but then Stirlitz posted and now I feel like I should keep out of it, but just a few things...

 When I mentioned your problems with the guide to Nataly she wasn't sympathetic...I told her how you found cheaper prices for the cab to the train station, and she said so what, the guide has the right to make a little money for his services.  She went on to say that it's rediculous how foreigners come to Ukraine and they worry every minute about somebody ripping them off, if it's such small money, than why even talk about it? 

 As for me, I agree that it's frustrating when the prices change after you arrive. I paid in ADVANCE for an apartment in Yalta online..well when I arrived the price went up $15 a night. I refused to pay and said I would sleep on the beach if I must, it wasn't about money, it was the principle of it, I think you feel the same way.

 Stirlitz made a very good point, why didn't you pay for your apartment reservations in advance? Why should they hold it with no deposit? That part of the story needs some explanation.

 Just so newbies know...you don't need a guide for airport transfers or to get you an apartment, you can set this up yourself. I reserved all my apartments online using gotorussia.com, and another one Ukaineapartments.com or something, there are many....they also can arrange for your airport pick-up and take you to your apartment.

 Kuna was a little naive, but it was his first trip, I'm just surprised so many members suggested a guide, with our help he could have arranged all of this himself, including his trip to Dnepr. A guide is nice to show you around the city, and helpful too i'm sure, but one isn't needed for accomodations or transportation.

 Anyway, hope this doesn't turn into a big thing, I think you and Stirlitz both make good points.

[Kuna]

Igor (Stirlitz),

Thanks for your reply.. It's a classic.

I'll stand by my original post and invite all newbies to read it and identify the things they could do better than I did... and then to read your response and identify your motivations.

My account of the trip is there to make newbies MORE aware than I was before my trip.  I welcome the postivie stories about Pavel because as I said in my post.. it's not all bad. I think he's a nice guy but he's Business Model is flawed and his promises can't be upheld under that business model.

I think anyone reading your post should pick up on the attitude of a Ukrainian Guide!

Kuna

[Stirlitz]

Kuna,

It is too bad you have nothing else to say. I expected you to address my questions but you just ignore them instead. For me, it is an indication that your original message is of no importance.

Whatever my motivations are, everything is quite  transparent as everybody can see for themselves. And, they do not really matter as long as my points are valid. It is actions rather than motivations that matter.

Anyone reading your report should also pick up on the attitude of some foreign guests to Ukraine.

[Kuna]

Kuna,

  I wanted to make some comments, but then Stirlitz posted and now I feel like I should keep out of it, but just a few things...

 When I mentioned your problems with the guide to Nataly she wasn't sympathetic...I told her how you found cheaper prices for the cab to the train station, and she said so what, the guide has the right to make a little money for his services.  She went on to say that it's rediculous how foreigners come to Ukraine and they worry every minute about somebody ripping them off, if it's such small money, than why even talk about it? 

 As for me, I agree that it's frustrating when the prices change after you arrive. I paid in ADVANCE for an apartment in Yalta online..well when I arrived the price went up $15 a night. I refused to pay and said I would sleep on the beach if I must, it wasn't about money, it was the principle of it, I think you feel the same way.

 Stirlitz made a very good point, why didn't you pay for your apartment reservations in advance? Why should they hold it with no deposit? That part of the story needs some explanation.

 Just so newbies know...you don't need a guide for airport transfers or to get you an apartment, you can set this up yourself. I reserved all my apartments online using gotorussia.com, and another one Ukaineapartments.com or something, there are many....they also can arrange for your airport pick-up and take you to your apartment.

 Kuna was a little naive, but it was his first trip, I'm just surprised so many members suggested a guide, with our help he could have arranged all of this himself, including his trip to Dnepr. A guide is nice to show you around the city, and helpful too i'm sure, but one isn't needed for accomodations or transportation.

 Anyway, hope this doesn't turn into a big thing, I think you and Stirlitz both make good points.

Jinx,

Nataly is right... It's a small amount of money but I don't think all foreigners expect cheap prices... I just expected that promises would be upheld.

The basic problem with the drifting prices comes purely from the promise of BEST PRICES when in fact it would be more truthful to say "There's a potential for you to be ripped off badly so I can organise things for you for a fee and ensure you're not ripped off badly".

By the way.. I was under the impression I'd paid the "Help on the ground fee" but the fee looked like it kept growing.  (Stirlitz made a good point of feeling sorry for guides that have to hide their fees.. I'd rather be told up front)

By the way...  Deposits for accommodation are reasonable and were paid.  I didn't hand over any more money to Pavel (he asked for the total stay not a deposit for my last 3 days) becasue I'd lost trust at that stage.  The discussion in the back of the car on the way to the airport was something to see.  I've got no doubt he was frustrated with me questioning him but at that point I felt like so many promises had been broken and he wouldn't discuss it so I thought #$@% it!

You make an exceptional point in your post... and it was something I was getting to later...

You said:
"Kuna was a little naive, but it was his first trip, I'm just surprised so many members suggested a guide, with our help he could have arranged all of this himself, including his trip to Dnepr. A guide is nice to show you around the city, and helpful too i'm sure, but one isn't needed for accomodations or transportation. "


You're right.. I was... but I don't regret any part of my trip.  Everything was a learning experience!

In hindsight I wouldn't ever suggest using a guide for transfers or transport. I think newbies can get better advice here than they can get from guides.  A $100 airfare to Dnepr was a MUCH better choice than a $400 car to Dnepr even if I DID have a prolonged delay.  (By the way, I got a quote of $300 for a car to Dnepr at the airport.. but you have to haggle!)

For transfers from the airport I'd use an apartment service as you suggest, AND get the apartment from them. The apartment that Pavel offered was very good and I have no issues with it but we can help newbies more than a guide can if there's a pretence that can't be upheld.

Anyway, discussion and disclosure in here is a good thing I think... (Nice to see the board with some energy again too huh!)  

Kuna

[William3rd]

I think anyone reading your post should pick up on the attitude of a Ukrainian Guide!

I dont think the Ukrainian guide department has scored many points with the prospective clientele today.  :noidea:

Sometimes it is better just to let it all go rather than put one's credibility or reputation on the line. 

Lots of people pad the bills for their services. Some customers choose to make an issue of it.

[Kuna]

Kuna,

It is too bad you have nothing else to say. I expected you to address my questions but you just ignore them instead. For me, it is an indication that your original message is of no importance.

Whatever my motivations are, everything is quite  transparent as everybody can see for themselves. And, they do not really matter as long as my points are valid. It is actions rather than motivations that matter.

Anyone reading your report should also pick up on the attitude of some foreign guests to Ukraine.

Igor,

Kiss me you gun touting lunatic!

If you think my original post has no value then cool.  I just hope some newbies can read it and understand some of the catches when dealing with guides.  You're a guide aren't you?  All newbies should get a broad range of views before using guides... don't you think?

I read your post and saw many thing that could be argued but decided that you have a right to justify whatever you'd like to.  If I respond to your tripe then you respond to me and I respond to you and then the message I wanted to share with newbies is lost in a personal feud.

(Were you the one promising me a personal feud in PM's if I posted my honest thoughts???)

Make no mistake... I posted my experiences knowing people would disagree but it is an account of what happened to me.  I stopped it before it got too bad and I'm yet to fully understand why my experience was vastly different to others but it's what happened.

The message is simple... Pavel did some things good for me BUT every newbie should be aware when dealing with a guide that there are catches, and I detailed the catches that I saw.

Make no mistake, I've watched your posts over time and I think I understand you.  I'm not impressed by you... but I understand.

More truth - less bullsh!t and everyone will get a fair go.

Kuna

[Stirlitz]

If I respond to you tripe then you respond to me and I respond to you and then the message I wanted to share with newbies is lost in a personal feud.

That is a good point. OK.

(Were you the one promising me a personal feud in PM's if I posted my honest thoughts???)

No, it was not me.

[Kuna]

Lots of people pad the bills for their services. Some customers choose to make an issue of it.

William,

Agreed... but only when it's asserted that it's not happening and I've already been charged a fee in place of padding.

I think there's a MUCH better business model guides could adopt by being more honest and charging a fair and reasonable fee.

I was going to leave this till the thread ran out of steam but I'll address it now...

I think a guide would earn more and provide a better service if they did something like the below:

- Charge a fee of say $250 to arrange ground content (apartments, travel, theatre tickets, etc) and then seek out the REAL prices for the client... not charge $45 and then be forced to pad out fees even when constantly saying they weren't padded.

Look at how much the organised tours cost.  If someone is going independent they might still need help on the ground but what I can't believe anyone would be happy with is a "best price" promise and a "price padding experience".  

- Charge an extra $20 (+ groceries) to stock the apartment with the essentials (milk, bread, butter, tea, coffee, a little fruit, etc) on arrival.  I actually asked for this service when Ms D and I returned to Kiev but instead was told where the grocery store was.

- Offer sightseeing but not as a loose hourly affair.  
Example:  "We'll explore Central Kiev for a day and I'll show you interesting places like X, Y and Z. If you want to do it on foot it'll cost $xx... we can get a private car to take us around for $xx." (this could be used to see museums, galleries, nighclubs, places of interest).
I was offered sightseeing but only "I can come sightseeing with you my friend".  I'd definitely have taken this service if it was presented differently because I didn't get to see all I wanted to see.  My guide would have earned some extra dollars and maybe not needed to pad other fees.
By the way Ms C knew Kiev well and we took a long walk one day that was fascinating...  She described buildings to me, history, showed me places I wouldn't have found from the guidebooks, etc.  If guides could offer this, "sightseeing" would be wonderful!

- "When you're meeting girls you might want an independent opinion.  We can catch up for a coffee and the three of us can chat.  I'll give you my opinion because I've met X hundred men taking the same journey as you.  I'll charge you $30 per coffee date".


In short... I think guides need to look at what a customer would want and offer something that doesn't only please them, but for the guides sake, INSPIRES the customer to engage more deeply.

The process I was taken through felt like I would have been a lamb being led to the slaughter IF I would have accepted all suggestions, and I think under a different model I would have been Happy to spend more AND had a more satisfying experience.

Guides need to make money,  but they need to provide value too!

Kuna

[BillyB]

I have read nothing but good things about Pavel in the last two years but lately Kuna, Jack and Pike have voiced their displeasure and there is valid issues each poster raised. Pike started a thread last week called "Helpers in Ukraine and Russia" in the trip report forum. At the end of his initial post, he wrote "Years ago, Pavel was actually pretty good.  Now he sucks."  It sounds like he has experience with Pavel and sees a noticable difference between then and now. Maybe someone could PM him to share his thoughts and experience in this thread.

Good people can start slipping in life and business. Maybe Pavel needs to re-evalute what he's doing now compared to years ago and if he's a change man who will upset more and more clients, then he needs to change back to the man that earned him a good reputation if he wants to keep the good reputation he rightfully earned.

It takes years to build a good reputation, it takes seconds to lose it.